I speculate that applying constant upwards force with the tongue is a very unnatural thing to do. Surely it is not what humans are meant to do and I f

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Warning: I have been applying long sessions of upwards force with my tongue and I am beginning to think that it can be a very bad thing to do too much of and that it possibly even can be bad to do in general.(self.orthotropics)
submitted 1 years ago by test151515 to /r/orthotropics
I have already warned about this in the past on this subreddit but since the subreddit has seen plenty of new users lately I want to warn about it yet again. Also, today I feel ever more strongly about warning about it than before.


I am a 30 year old man that started applying tongue contact against the roof of the mouth about 9,5 months ago after having lived most of my life with lacking oral posture. I have been applying a constant upwards force (usually a light force) with my tongue against the roof of the mouth, for very long sessions during the days. It became a habit that I learnt to do automatically. I have probably

spent more time in such a state than in a state where my tongue just rests against the roof of the mouth with no upwards force being applied except for during swallowing. The latter has obviously been the case during sleep.


I have seen a lot of added volume to my face laterally as well as forwards. Aside from changes for my dental arches, my maxilla (and seemingly also my mandible by now),

my zygomatic bones, I have even seen changes to my nose and to my forehead. My measurements hint at a very slight decrease in distance between lips and pupils. I should mention that my ratio between the distance from the

midline of my lips (where upper and lower lip meet each other as the mouth is shut) to my pupils and the distance between my pupils is about 1.0 right now. In other words, my maxilla as I started the

process was much more underdeveloped than it was downswung. I'd say it was "somewhat downswung", I was not an extreme case by any means in that regard. My upper dental arch however was so narrow that my tongue just barely fit as I forced it up there abut 9,5 months ago. The insides

of all my upper teeth left a clear mark in my tongue.
What stands out the most is how much fuller my face is today. Just to give you one measurement to give you an idea I can mention that the lateral distance between the outer points of my zygomatic bones since I started have increased with about 1,0-1,2 cm. Things certainly have changed a lot in

the forwards direction as well by now. I have had to adjust my glasses to accommodate for an increased distance between my ears and my nose.
I am not sure whether I like what has happened in me though. Lately I have had moments where I worry a lot about what I have done. Whether I have overdone it or whether it was wise to do it in an

y amount at all. Throughout the process I have tried to convince myself that the change must be for the better aesthetically but I am more and more starting to doubt that now. Health wise I cannot deny that my breathing is significantly improved (and therefore also my sleep) and that my overall body

posture today is a lot better which has mitigated my back issues. My dental arches themselves also seem to look better today, my upper dental arch has less of a V-shape to it and more of a U-shape to it. Both dental arches match each other today just like they did when I started.


However, what I mostly am concerned about is whether I actually have improved aesthetically or not when it comes to my face. Perhaps the health improvements would have come by regular mewing with no added long sessions of upwards force as well. Perhaps regular mewing would have changed

me in a better way aesthetically, but more slowly. My best assessment today is that I by doing what I have been doing might have improved aesthetically in some areas while I might have done the oposite in other areas.
For example: My chin used to be more defined and pointy before I started. Today it is located

differently and looks less pointy and broader (my entire lower part of my face as well as my mid face looks broader). The soft tissues surrounding the chin and the entire mandible also makes for a more roundish look for the chin. My soft tissue (fat, muscle and skin) did not do this for me at all back before I started this process. Changes to my bone structure obviously interact with my soft tissues in

certain ways and when it comes to my chin area it just looks worse today. All in all I just look very different today and I am not sure if I like it. Regarding my chin area I speculate that it perhaps could get better over time though assuming that it moves further forwards. The thing is that since my head posture has improved I am positioning my skull in a way so that more skin and fat clumps up beneath

my chin. This in turn I assume has an upward push effect on soft tissue located above, for example on the soft tissue surrounding my chin. I should mention that my bodyfat has been about the same throughout the process, varying around 10-15%. However, I went down to lower than 8-10% and the issue still was present to a significant degree. In addition to body fat the skin and muscle most certainty factor in a lot. Perhaps if the chin keeps moving forwards it will eventually reach a point where it will look more defined again even when I am applying my new improved head posture. On

the other hand, maybe it will never reach such a point. I first realized that I had developed this problem about 3 months in and I seem to have it today 9,5 months in as well. I believe I have it to a

lesser degree now but that might be wishful thinking. I suppose that a part of my chin worsening could have its explanation in that my posture seemingly have improved a lot faster than my bone structure has changed (even though my bone structure seems to have changed quite a lot in these 9,5

months). Perhaps my bone change will eventually catch up to my posture change, perhaps it will never do so and perhaps it will never reach a point where it ends up looking as defined as it did before I started. It is not as If I can walk around stretching my neck as much as I can, leaning

forwards with my head somewhat to mitigate this problem. That would just look silly. In any case, the chin change described above is just one example of things I am worrying about today. Perhaps other areas have gone in the wrong direction aesthetically as well.
All in all I speculate that applying constant upwards force with the tongue is a very unnatural thing to do. Surely it is not what humans are meant to do and I feel pretty stupid today for having done so for

such a long time. I saw some initial changes that I liked and as such I just continued doing it assuming that things surely must be going in the right direction. I never even gave "regular mewing" a chance since I applied mewing with force for the majority of the time from the beginning.
I have never heard Mike or John Mew talk about applying upwards force against the roof of the mout

h aside from during the swallowing process and during certain practice sessions for tongue strengthening and for posture practice. Mike Mew has mentioned that he believes we are supposed to create a "suction hold" for the tongue against the roof of the mouth (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6h3-wsqLNA&t=15s). I interpret that as in that the tongue

is supposed to rest against the roof ot the mouth, but not actively push against it (except for during swallowing).
I should mention that there is a device called the FAGGA appliance (or just "AGGA" appliance) that seemingly causes significant bone growth in adults by pushing a small oval shaped thing with force against the hard palate. See this blog for more info about it: https://www.migrainehacks.com/


If such an object can cause bone growth if pushed with force against the hard palate then obviously so can the tongue if pushing with force. Just like that device can be overused than so should the

tongue be able to be overused. Also, the tongue pushes against a much larger area which might cause bone growth in more areas. That is why I suspect this is what has happened in me to a large degree. Whether it might have been a matter of me having overdone it or whether it might be a matter of it causing an undesirable development at whatever length of time it is being used I do not know, b

ut I suspect that it possibly could be the latter given of how unnatural of a thing it is to do when you think about it. Perhaps it simply results in a lot of unnatural bone growth whereas regular mewing mostly results in certain necessary expansion (where bone growth possibly is taking place to a certain degree) combined with mostly bone remodeling. Bone growth goes a lot faster than bone remodeling based on what I have read. I suspect that most of my change thus far has been in the form of bone

growth as opposed to bone remodeling, if so that could explain why I have changed so rapidly. It is strange that my palates today still are not as well developed as they should be even though they have expanded a lot. It is as if my face has changed more than my dental arches..
To sum up: I have been using a lot of upwards force in longer sessions with my tongue for 9,5 months and I am not at all sure if this has been for the better. I have noticed more people talking about


applying upwards force during sessions so I want to warn people about it given my doubts about my own change. If you do this in any capacity I advice you to be very cautious and observant. Perhaps it

should not be done at all except for during the very first stage (at most for a few weeks?) where you learn yourself to start applying good tongue posture. Perhaps it can be bad to do even then though, perhaps any amount of it will result in undesirable change given that it is a very unnatural thing to be doing to begin with.


Thanks for reading, and please be observant and cautious if you attempt doing anything similar to what I have been doing in any capacity. I would even go so far as to tell adults that attempt regular

mewing to be observant and cautious as well. After all very little is known about it as of right now.


23 comments reddit ceddit
removed comments: 0/24 (0.0%)
deleted comments: 6/24 (25.0%)
sorted by:topbottomnewoldshow:All commentsRemoved and deletedRemovedDeleted
[–]kobe3372 points1 years ago
I know that you don't want to show before and after pics but I feel that it would strengthen your argument of not putting upwards force with tongue.
permalinkredditceddit
[–]test151515 (deleted by user)1 point1 years ago
I should probably update my post once again, because I am still uncertain of what has happened in me.
In a few weeks I should know a lot more since I will drop down in body fat and do some other things that could be of much relevance for my assessment of my current state.
I want to point out that I do not know at all whether it is bad to push upwards with force during large amounts of times, I only suspect that it could be so right now based on my own results. However, I have changed my mind many times in the past about whether I have been going in the right direction or not, and I might once again do that.
It is tricky... Things change but it is hard to get a good grasp of the totality. And now, it seems as if I might have entered a new phase of change. I have seen a bit of additional of up-swing movement lately it seems. For example, there was a point where I seemingly mostly had gotten lateral development, at that time I was quite unhappy about my change. That changed as I kept developing though.
I will know more in a few weeks from now, or a few months from now. I might update the thread as I learn more.
For time time being people need to know that there could be some unpleasant things that develops during the process and that the maxilla certainly seems very malleable/growable (even in adults). Also, I do not know where I am heading, I hope for the best.
My picture comparisons are problematic. I should have applied a standardized way of taking good pictures. I have not. I have tried to recreate certain before pictures to the best of my ability, but it is still hard to tell based on those comparisons. Like written above, some things might have improved while others might have not. I hope I am on the right track but I honestly do not know. People need to be warned.
permalinkredditceddit

[–]allurepedia (deleted by user)1 point1 years ago
Extremely helpful reading and it came in the best moment for me since i just starting this journey, for the past days i've been applying strong upward force against the palate with my tongue thinking that would speed up the process, but i'm very grateful that i came across your post. So what are you going to dk now? Are you going to lwt your face rest or are you going to keep the regular mewing?
permalinkredditceddit
[–]test1515151 point1 years ago
Hey.
I have since I wrote this thread seen more forwards development. However, I still notice that the anterior parts of my dental arches have yet to change a whole lot. They are most likely located more forwards (and probably also more upwards) compared to when I started, but the width in the anterior part is still very narrow and I still have a V-shaped upper dental arch for this reason.
I will start palatal expansion treatment soon as I continue to mew (with or without force, probably the former). I believe this will fill in the development I have yet to see.
I believe the reason I saw such massive widening in the beginning was because I saw a lot of lateral bone growth during that stage. My maxilla in particular was narrow when I started. The widening happened to a certain point and then seemingly stopped. Since then it seems I have only seen further forwards (possibly also upwards) development. So today I actually believe that what I have done perhaps has not been bad after all.
Having said this, I know I really freaked out once it hit me what had happened about 5 months in so I still want to warn people. It might be best to go about the whole thing a bit slower and more carefully by just applying "regular mewing". The thing is I had no clue what to expect in the beginning. I figured that it perhaps was impossible to expand as an adult, so I just went all in.
Maxilla expansion can be serious stuff, this woman probably saw something very similar to what I saw initially and she was not happy about it either: https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/expanding-palate-effect-on-cheekbones/
So yeah, people need to be warned so that they go about things carefully and so that they are very observant about how they change.
permalinkredditceddit
[–]allurepedia (deleted by user)1 point1 year ago
You know! When I first read about Orthrotopics it was very vague, I just saw a random video on youtube and after that, I started applying an extremely strong force in the mid-palate ONLY, that was like 4 months ago, about a month ago I noticed my face like deformed, like narrower, longer and with extremely puffy cheeks, I'm been reading about allergies, thinking i might have one, or weight gain even and nothing could explain the weird bizarre change in my face, there were moments i thought it was because of the tongue exercise but i refuse to believe it could happen that fast (especially in adults) now i'm starting to freak out
BTW sorry for my english. I'm not native
permalinkredditceddit
[–]test1515152 points1 years ago
Well if you have been pushing upwards with your tongue it is impossible for your face to become longer and narrower.
Let me guess, you are basing this on certain pictures you have seen of yourself? Do not draw conclusions about the shape of your face by looking at selfies taken at you with a mobile phone (that usually is equipped with a "fisheye lense") at close distance. They will distort your face. It will look longer and more narrow. See these links for some info:
http://www.shortcourses.com/tabletop/lighting2-16.html
https://bakerdh.wordpress.com/2012/05/05/face-distortion-is-not-due-to-lens-distortion/
https://www.livescience.com/61896-why-selfies-distort-your-face-math.html
For the same reason, do not base conclusions about the shape of your face by looking at yourself in the mirror at a very close distance. Stand at least half a meter away from the mirror.
permalinkredditceddit
[–]allurepedia (deleted by user)1 point1 years ago
But i was pushing ONLY in the mid palate, actually now that i'm checking my palate i have a way more pronounced deep area, i remember it flatter, also i wasn't aware that you are suppose to keep your teeth in light contact and lips sealed. And actually in selfies i look normal because i can choose the angle that i like the most, but when i look at the mirror the difference is very noticeable since i am very aware of every detail of my face, i wondering if doing an "anti mewing" would help my face go back to normal or if the bone changes are here to stay. Now i would read as much as i can to improve
permalinkredditceddit
[–]test1515151 point1 years ago
I was pushing a lot upwards without having my teeth in direct contact with each other in the beginning since I had so little space for my tongue. Only when I gained more space could I more easily mew with my teeth in direct contact.
As I did this my face did not get longer and I could feel my upper palate flatten a little, which is expected to happen as expansion takes place. I have a real hard time believing that you by pushing upwards with your tongue have deepened your upper arch and made your face longer. If anything a slight effect to the opposite should have happened.
But my guess is that nothing has happened in you, because surely you have not been doing it for hours and hours every day?
Even if you have though, it should not have resulted in lengthening of your face. If anything it could result in potential widening of your maxilla (like it did for me).
In fact, I believe I might actually have a slightly shorter distance from chin to pupils today compared to when I started. It certainly has not gotten longer at least, and I see no way that your face could have gotten longer by doing something similar to what I have been doing.
permalinkredditceddit
[–]allurepedia (deleted by user)1 point1 years ago
It's kinda complicated right? Like everything, maybe i'm being paranoid, i sent you a chat btw
permalinkredditceddit
[–]test1515151 point1 years ago
Yes, there is a lot of uncertainty today regarding maxillary development in humans, and especially in adults.
If you meant that you sent me a PM (private message) it seems that it was not delivered. I have not received a PM from you.
permalinkredditceddit
[–]allurepedia (deleted by user)2 points1 years ago
Well i clicked in the "Start chat" button here, anyways i just sent you the message
permalinkredditceddit


 
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Rob Paul'sHeight said:
Warning: I have been applying long sessions of upwards force with my tongue and I am beginning to think that it can be a very bad thing to do too much of and that it possibly even can be bad to do in general.(self.orthotropics)
submitted 1 years ago by test151515 to /r/orthotropics
I have already warned about this in the past on this subreddit but since the subreddit has seen plenty of new users lately I want to warn about it yet again. Also, today I feel ever more strongly about warning about it than before.


I am a 30 year old man that started applying tongue contact against the roof of the mouth about 9,5 months ago after having lived most of my life with lacking oral posture. I have been applying a constant upwards force (usually a light force) with my tongue against the roof of the mouth, for very long sessions during the days. It became a habit that I learnt to do automatically. I have probably

spent more time in such a state than in a state where my tongue just rests against the roof of the mouth with no upwards force being applied except for during swallowing. The latter has obviously been the case during sleep.


I have seen a lot of added volume to my face laterally as well as forwards. Aside from changes for my dental arches, my maxilla (and seemingly also my mandible by now),

my zygomatic bones, I have even seen changes to my nose and to my forehead. My measurements hint at a very slight decrease in distance between lips and pupils. I should mention that my ratio between the distance from the

midline of my lips (where upper and lower lip meet each other as the mouth is shut) to my pupils and the distance between my pupils is about 1.0 right now. In other words, my maxilla as I started the

process was much more underdeveloped than it was downswung. I'd say it was "somewhat downswung", I was not an extreme case by any means in that regard. My upper dental arch however was so narrow that my tongue just barely fit as I forced it up there abut 9,5 months ago. The insides

of all my upper teeth left a clear mark in my tongue.
What stands out the most is how much fuller my face is today. Just to give you one measurement to give you an idea I can mention that the lateral distance between the outer points of my zygomatic bones since I started have increased with about 1,0-1,2 cm. Things certainly have changed a lot in

the forwards direction as well by now. I have had to adjust my glasses to accommodate for an increased distance between my ears and my nose.
I am not sure whether I like what has happened in me though. Lately I have had moments where I worry a lot about what I have done. Whether I have overdone it or whether it was wise to do it in an

y amount at all. Throughout the process I have tried to convince myself that the change must be for the better aesthetically but I am more and more starting to doubt that now. Health wise I cannot deny that my breathing is significantly improved (and therefore also my sleep) and that my overall body

posture today is a lot better which has mitigated my back issues. My dental arches themselves also seem to look better today, my upper dental arch has less of a V-shape to it and more of a U-shape to it. Both dental arches match each other today just like they did when I started.


However, what I mostly am concerned about is whether I actually have improved aesthetically or not when it comes to my face. Perhaps the health improvements would have come by regular mewing with no added long sessions of upwards force as well. Perhaps regular mewing would have changed

me in a better way aesthetically, but more slowly. My best assessment today is that I by doing what I have been doing might have improved aesthetically in some areas while I might have done the oposite in other areas.
For example: My chin used to be more defined and pointy before I started. Today it is located

differently and looks less pointy and broader (my entire lower part of my face as well as my mid face looks broader). The soft tissues surrounding the chin and the entire mandible also makes for a more roundish look for the chin. My soft tissue (fat, muscle and skin) did not do this for me at all back before I started this process. Changes to my bone structure obviously interact with my soft tissues in

certain ways and when it comes to my chin area it just looks worse today. All in all I just look very different today and I am not sure if I like it. Regarding my chin area I speculate that it perhaps could get better over time though assuming that it moves further forwards. The thing is that since my head posture has improved I am positioning my skull in a way so that more skin and fat clumps up beneath

my chin. This in turn I assume has an upward push effect on soft tissue located above, for example on the soft tissue surrounding my chin. I should mention that my bodyfat has been about the same throughout the process, varying around 10-15%. However, I went down to lower than 8-10% and the issue still was present to a significant degree. In addition to body fat the skin and muscle most certainty factor in a lot. Perhaps if the chin keeps moving forwards it will eventually reach a point where it will look more defined again even when I am applying my new improved head posture. On

the other hand, maybe it will never reach such a point. I first realized that I had developed this problem about 3 months in and I seem to have it today 9,5 months in as well. I believe I have it to a

lesser degree now but that might be wishful thinking. I suppose that a part of my chin worsening could have its explanation in that my posture seemingly have improved a lot faster than my bone structure has changed (even though my bone structure seems to have changed quite a lot in these 9,5

months). Perhaps my bone change will eventually catch up to my posture change, perhaps it will never do so and perhaps it will never reach a point where it ends up looking as defined as it did before I started. It is not as If I can walk around stretching my neck as much as I can, leaning

forwards with my head somewhat to mitigate this problem. That would just look silly. In any case, the chin change described above is just one example of things I am worrying about today. Perhaps other areas have gone in the wrong direction aesthetically as well.
All in all I speculate that applying constant upwards force with the tongue is a very unnatural thing to do. Surely it is not what humans are meant to do and I feel pretty stupid today for having done so for

such a long time. I saw some initial changes that I liked and as such I just continued doing it assuming that things surely must be going in the right direction. I never even gave "regular mewing" a chance since I applied mewing with force for the majority of the time from the beginning.
I have never heard Mike or John Mew talk about applying upwards force against the roof of the mout

h aside from during the swallowing process and during certain practice sessions for tongue strengthening and for posture practice. Mike Mew has mentioned that he believes we are supposed to create a "suction hold" for the tongue against the roof of the mouth (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6h3-wsqLNA&t=15s). I interpret that as in that the tongue

is supposed to rest against the roof ot the mouth, but not actively push against it (except for during swallowing).
I should mention that there is a device called the FAGGA appliance (or just "AGGA" appliance) that seemingly causes significant bone growth in adults by pushing a small oval shaped thing with force against the hard palate. See this blog for more info about it: https://www.migrainehacks.com/


If such an object can cause bone growth if pushed with force against the hard palate then obviously so can the tongue if pushing with force. Just like that device can be overused than so should the

tongue be able to be overused. Also, the tongue pushes against a much larger area which might cause bone growth in more areas. That is why I suspect this is what has happened in me to a large degree. Whether it might have been a matter of me having overdone it or whether it might be a matter of it causing an undesirable development at whatever length of time it is being used I do not know, b

ut I suspect that it possibly could be the latter given of how unnatural of a thing it is to do when you think about it. Perhaps it simply results in a lot of unnatural bone growth whereas regular mewing mostly results in certain necessary expansion (where bone growth possibly is taking place to a certain degree) combined with mostly bone remodeling. Bone growth goes a lot faster than bone remodeling based on what I have read. I suspect that most of my change thus far has been in the form of bone

growth as opposed to bone remodeling, if so that could explain why I have changed so rapidly. It is strange that my palates today still are not as well developed as they should be even though they have expanded a lot. It is as if my face has changed more than my dental arches..
To sum up: I have been using a lot of upwards force in longer sessions with my tongue for 9,5 months and I am not at all sure if this has been for the better. I have noticed more people talking about


applying upwards force during sessions so I want to warn people about it given my doubts about my own change. If you do this in any capacity I advice you to be very cautious and observant. Perhaps it

should not be done at all except for during the very first stage (at most for a few weeks?) where you learn yourself to start applying good tongue posture. Perhaps it can be bad to do even then though, perhaps any amount of it will result in undesirable change given that it is a very unnatural thing to be doing to begin with.


Thanks for reading, and please be observant and cautious if you attempt doing anything similar to what I have been doing in any capacity. I would even go so far as to tell adults that attempt regular

mewing to be observant and cautious as well. After all very little is known about it as of right now.


23 comments reddit ceddit
removed comments: 0/24 (0.0%)
deleted comments: 6/24 (25.0%)
sorted by:topbottomnewoldshow:All commentsRemoved and deletedRemovedDeleted
[–]kobe3372 points1 years ago
I know that you don't want to show before and after pics but I feel that it would strengthen your argument of not putting upwards force with tongue.
permalinkredditceddit
[–]test151515 (deleted by user)1 point1 years ago
I should probably update my post once again, because I am still uncertain of what has happened in me.
In a few weeks I should know a lot more since I will drop down in body fat and do some other things that could be of much relevance for my assessment of my current state.
I want to point out that I do not know at all whether it is bad to push upwards with force during large amounts of times, I only suspect that it could be so right now based on my own results. However, I have changed my mind many times in the past about whether I have been going in the right direction or not, and I might once again do that.
It is tricky... Things change but it is hard to get a good grasp of the totality. And now, it seems as if I might have entered a new phase of change. I have seen a bit of additional of up-swing movement lately it seems. For example, there was a point where I seemingly mostly had gotten lateral development, at that time I was quite unhappy about my change. That changed as I kept developing though.
I will know more in a few weeks from now, or a few months from now. I might update the thread as I learn more.
For time time being people need to know that there could be some unpleasant things that develops during the process and that the maxilla certainly seems very malleable/growable (even in adults). Also, I do not know where I am heading, I hope for the best.
My picture comparisons are problematic. I should have applied a standardized way of taking good pictures. I have not. I have tried to recreate certain before pictures to the best of my ability, but it is still hard to tell based on those comparisons. Like written above, some things might have improved while others might have not. I hope I am on the right track but I honestly do not know. People need to be warned.
permalinkredditceddit

[–]allurepedia (deleted by user)1 point1 years ago
Extremely helpful reading and it came in the best moment for me since i just starting this journey, for the past days i've been applying strong upward force against the palate with my tongue thinking that would speed up the process, but i'm very grateful that i came across your post. So what are you going to dk now? Are you going to lwt your face rest or are you going to keep the regular mewing?
permalinkredditceddit
[–]test1515151 point1 years ago
Hey.
I have since I wrote this thread seen more forwards development. However, I still notice that the anterior parts of my dental arches have yet to change a whole lot. They are most likely located more forwards (and probably also more upwards) compared to when I started, but the width in the anterior part is still very narrow and I still have a V-shaped upper dental arch for this reason.
I will start palatal expansion treatment soon as I continue to mew (with or without force, probably the former). I believe this will fill in the development I have yet to see.
I believe the reason I saw such massive widening in the beginning was because I saw a lot of lateral bone growth during that stage. My maxilla in particular was narrow when I started. The widening happened to a certain point and then seemingly stopped. Since then it seems I have only seen further forwards (possibly also upwards) development. So today I actually believe that what I have done perhaps has not been bad after all.
Having said this, I know I really freaked out once it hit me what had happened about 5 months in so I still want to warn people. It might be best to go about the whole thing a bit slower and more carefully by just applying "regular mewing". The thing is I had no clue what to expect in the beginning. I figured that it perhaps was impossible to expand as an adult, so I just went all in.
Maxilla expansion can be serious stuff, this woman probably saw something very similar to what I saw initially and she was not happy about it either: https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/expanding-palate-effect-on-cheekbones/
So yeah, people need to be warned so that they go about things carefully and so that they are very observant about how they change.
permalinkredditceddit
[–]allurepedia (deleted by user)1 point1 year ago
You know! When I first read about Orthrotopics it was very vague, I just saw a random video on youtube and after that, I started applying an extremely strong force in the mid-palate ONLY, that was like 4 months ago, about a month ago I noticed my face like deformed, like narrower, longer and with extremely puffy cheeks, I'm been reading about allergies, thinking i might have one, or weight gain even and nothing could explain the weird bizarre change in my face, there were moments i thought it was because of the tongue exercise but i refuse to believe it could happen that fast (especially in adults) now i'm starting to freak out
BTW sorry for my english. I'm not native
permalinkredditceddit
[–]test1515152 points1 years ago
Well if you have been pushing upwards with your tongue it is impossible for your face to become longer and narrower.
Let me guess, you are basing this on certain pictures you have seen of yourself? Do not draw conclusions about the shape of your face by looking at selfies taken at you with a mobile phone (that usually is equipped with a "fisheye lense") at close distance. They will distort your face. It will look longer and more narrow. See these links for some info:
http://www.shortcourses.com/tabletop/lighting2-16.html
https://bakerdh.wordpress.com/2012/05/05/face-distortion-is-not-due-to-lens-distortion/
https://www.livescience.com/61896-why-selfies-distort-your-face-math.html
For the same reason, do not base conclusions about the shape of your face by looking at yourself in the mirror at a very close distance. Stand at least half a meter away from the mirror.
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[–]allurepedia (deleted by user)1 point1 years ago
But i was pushing ONLY in the mid palate, actually now that i'm checking my palate i have a way more pronounced deep area, i remember it flatter, also i wasn't aware that you are suppose to keep your teeth in light contact and lips sealed. And actually in selfies i look normal because i can choose the angle that i like the most, but when i look at the mirror the difference is very noticeable since i am very aware of every detail of my face, i wondering if doing an "anti mewing" would help my face go back to normal or if the bone changes are here to stay. Now i would read as much as i can to improve
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[–]test1515151 point1 years ago
I was pushing a lot upwards without having my teeth in direct contact with each other in the beginning since I had so little space for my tongue. Only when I gained more space could I more easily mew with my teeth in direct contact.
As I did this my face did not get longer and I could feel my upper palate flatten a little, which is expected to happen as expansion takes place. I have a real hard time believing that you by pushing upwards with your tongue have deepened your upper arch and made your face longer. If anything a slight effect to the opposite should have happened.
But my guess is that nothing has happened in you, because surely you have not been doing it for hours and hours every day?
Even if you have though, it should not have resulted in lengthening of your face. If anything it could result in potential widening of your maxilla (like it did for me).
In fact, I believe I might actually have a slightly shorter distance from chin to pupils today compared to when I started. It certainly has not gotten longer at least, and I see no way that your face could have gotten longer by doing something similar to what I have been doing.
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[–]allurepedia (deleted by user)1 point1 years ago
It's kinda complicated right? Like everything, maybe i'm being paranoid, i sent you a chat btw
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[–]test1515151 point1 years ago
Yes, there is a lot of uncertainty today regarding maxillary development in humans, and especially in adults.
If you meant that you sent me a PM (private message) it seems that it was not delivered. I have not received a PM from you.
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[–]allurepedia (deleted by user)2 points1 years ago
Well i clicked in the "Start chat" button here, anyways i just sent you the message
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he's just lying or placebo effect unless he actually sends images, mewing is cope
 
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Vidyacoper said:
he's just lying or placebo effect unless he actually sends images, mewing is cope
Briefly, this is what I am worrying about right now:

- My chin now looks less defined given how my soft tissue now surrounds it differently, read more about my thoughts on this matter in the post I linked to above. I speculate that this to a certain degree could be a result of my posture had changed faster than my bone structure. So perhaps it could improve if I keep changing.

-My face is a lot fuller by the increased zygote and cheekbone protrusion, at the same time it is not more defined despite my body fat not having changed. It looks more swollen. One would think that with a larger maxilla and more protruding cheekbones there would be more definition given a higher ratio of bone mass compared to soft tissue. Yet this has not been my experience thus far.

-My zygomatic bones and my frontal cheekbones are now protruding a lot more but like explained above, not necessarily in a good way. If the face looks more swollen but not more defined, then that is perhaps not for the better.

-My forehead has changed, it is now larger. My hairline now sits slightly higher because of it. My upper skull used to have a clear bump between the anterior part of it and the posterior part of it.

My posterior part was higher than my anterior part. This bump is today a lot less pronounced, almost gone entirely. It seems clear to me that the anterior part of my upper skull has moved or grown (or a combination of the two) up and forwards (which I am certain that my maxilla has done as well to a certain degree).

-My face has seemingly not shortened in a significant way while all these other changes have taken place. I have measured a very small change in decreased distance between my lips to my pupils but it certainly does not at all stand out compared to all the other major changes that have taken place.

At the same time, my face was perhaps not that much elongated, to begin with. My maxilla was much more underdeveloped than it was downswing. My ratio between the distance from the midline of my lips (where upper lip meats lower lip) to my pupils and the distance between my pupils is today about

1.0. So perhaps I should not expect any facial shortening even if things would develop ideally. It is hard for me to figure out these things. I should mention that despite the fact that my forehead has been raised a bit the distance from chin to hairline seems to have been unchanged and not gotten

longer. I suppose this is a positive sign though, suggesting that the entire front part of my skull might have been moved upwards.
 
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Rob Paul'sHeight said:
Warning: I have been applying long sessions of upwards force with my tongue and I am beginning to think that it can be a very bad thing to do too much of and that it possibly even can be bad to do in general.(self.orthotropics)
submitted 1 years ago by test151515 to /r/orthotropics
I have already warned about this in the past on this subreddit but since the subreddit has seen plenty of new users lately I want to warn about it yet again. Also, today I feel ever more strongly about warning about it than before.


I am a 30 year old man that started applying tongue contact against the roof of the mouth about 9,5 months ago after having lived most of my life with lacking oral posture. I have been applying a constant upwards force (usually a light force) with my tongue against the roof of the mouth, for very long sessions during the days. It became a habit that I learnt to do automatically. I have probably

spent more time in such a state than in a state where my tongue just rests against the roof of the mouth with no upwards force being applied except for during swallowing. The latter has obviously been the case during sleep.


I have seen a lot of added volume to my face laterally as well as forwards. Aside from changes for my dental arches, my maxilla (and seemingly also my mandible by now),

my zygomatic bones, I have even seen changes to my nose and to my forehead. My measurements hint at a very slight decrease in distance between lips and pupils. I should mention that my ratio between the distance from the

midline of my lips (where upper and lower lip meet each other as the mouth is shut) to my pupils and the distance between my pupils is about 1.0 right now. In other words, my maxilla as I started the

process was much more underdeveloped than it was downswung. I'd say it was "somewhat downswung", I was not an extreme case by any means in that regard. My upper dental arch however was so narrow that my tongue just barely fit as I forced it up there abut 9,5 months ago. The insides

of all my upper teeth left a clear mark in my tongue.
What stands out the most is how much fuller my face is today. Just to give you one measurement to give you an idea I can mention that the lateral distance between the outer points of my zygomatic bones since I started have increased with about 1,0-1,2 cm. Things certainly have changed a lot in

the forwards direction as well by now. I have had to adjust my glasses to accommodate for an increased distance between my ears and my nose.
I am not sure whether I like what has happened in me though. Lately I have had moments where I worry a lot about what I have done. Whether I have overdone it or whether it was wise to do it in an

y amount at all. Throughout the process I have tried to convince myself that the change must be for the better aesthetically but I am more and more starting to doubt that now. Health wise I cannot deny that my breathing is significantly improved (and therefore also my sleep) and that my overall body

posture today is a lot better which has mitigated my back issues. My dental arches themselves also seem to look better today, my upper dental arch has less of a V-shape to it and more of a U-shape to it. Both dental arches match each other today just like they did when I started.


However, what I mostly am concerned about is whether I actually have improved aesthetically or not when it comes to my face. Perhaps the health improvements would have come by regular mewing with no added long sessions of upwards force as well. Perhaps regular mewing would have changed

me in a better way aesthetically, but more slowly. My best assessment today is that I by doing what I have been doing might have improved aesthetically in some areas while I might have done the oposite in other areas.
For example: My chin used to be more defined and pointy before I started. Today it is located

differently and looks less pointy and broader (my entire lower part of my face as well as my mid face looks broader). The soft tissues surrounding the chin and the entire mandible also makes for a more roundish look for the chin. My soft tissue (fat, muscle and skin) did not do this for me at all back before I started this process. Changes to my bone structure obviously interact with my soft tissues in

certain ways and when it comes to my chin area it just looks worse today. All in all I just look very different today and I am not sure if I like it. Regarding my chin area I speculate that it perhaps could get better over time though assuming that it moves further forwards. The thing is that since my head posture has improved I am positioning my skull in a way so that more skin and fat clumps up beneath

my chin. This in turn I assume has an upward push effect on soft tissue located above, for example on the soft tissue surrounding my chin. I should mention that my bodyfat has been about the same throughout the process, varying around 10-15%. However, I went down to lower than 8-10% and the issue still was present to a significant degree. In addition to body fat the skin and muscle most certainty factor in a lot. Perhaps if the chin keeps moving forwards it will eventually reach a point where it will look more defined again even when I am applying my new improved head posture. On

the other hand, maybe it will never reach such a point. I first realized that I had developed this problem about 3 months in and I seem to have it today 9,5 months in as well. I believe I have it to a

lesser degree now but that might be wishful thinking. I suppose that a part of my chin worsening could have its explanation in that my posture seemingly have improved a lot faster than my bone structure has changed (even though my bone structure seems to have changed quite a lot in these 9,5

months). Perhaps my bone change will eventually catch up to my posture change, perhaps it will never do so and perhaps it will never reach a point where it ends up looking as defined as it did before I started. It is not as If I can walk around stretching my neck as much as I can, leaning

forwards with my head somewhat to mitigate this problem. That would just look silly. In any case, the chin change described above is just one example of things I am worrying about today. Perhaps other areas have gone in the wrong direction aesthetically as well.
All in all I speculate that applying constant upwards force with the tongue is a very unnatural thing to do. Surely it is not what humans are meant to do and I feel pretty stupid today for having done so for

such a long time. I saw some initial changes that I liked and as such I just continued doing it assuming that things surely must be going in the right direction. I never even gave "regular mewing" a chance since I applied mewing with force for the majority of the time from the beginning.
I have never heard Mike or John Mew talk about applying upwards force against the roof of the mout

h aside from during the swallowing process and during certain practice sessions for tongue strengthening and for posture practice. Mike Mew has mentioned that he believes we are supposed to create a "suction hold" for the tongue against the roof of the mouth (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6h3-wsqLNA&t=15s). I interpret that as in that the tongue

is supposed to rest against the roof ot the mouth, but not actively push against it (except for during swallowing).
I should mention that there is a device called the FAGGA appliance (or just "AGGA" appliance) that seemingly causes significant bone growth in adults by pushing a small oval shaped thing with force against the hard palate. See this blog for more info about it: https://www.migrainehacks.com/


If such an object can cause bone growth if pushed with force against the hard palate then obviously so can the tongue if pushing with force. Just like that device can be overused than so should the

tongue be able to be overused. Also, the tongue pushes against a much larger area which might cause bone growth in more areas. That is why I suspect this is what has happened in me to a large degree. Whether it might have been a matter of me having overdone it or whether it might be a matter of it causing an undesirable development at whatever length of time it is being used I do not know, b

ut I suspect that it possibly could be the latter given of how unnatural of a thing it is to do when you think about it. Perhaps it simply results in a lot of unnatural bone growth whereas regular mewing mostly results in certain necessary expansion (where bone growth possibly is taking place to a certain degree) combined with mostly bone remodeling. Bone growth goes a lot faster than bone remodeling based on what I have read. I suspect that most of my change thus far has been in the form of bone

growth as opposed to bone remodeling, if so that could explain why I have changed so rapidly. It is strange that my palates today still are not as well developed as they should be even though they have expanded a lot. It is as if my face has changed more than my dental arches..
To sum up: I have been using a lot of upwards force in longer sessions with my tongue for 9,5 months and I am not at all sure if this has been for the better. I have noticed more people talking about


applying upwards force during sessions so I want to warn people about it given my doubts about my own change. If you do this in any capacity I advice you to be very cautious and observant. Perhaps it

should not be done at all except for during the very first stage (at most for a few weeks?) where you learn yourself to start applying good tongue posture. Perhaps it can be bad to do even then though, perhaps any amount of it will result in undesirable change given that it is a very unnatural thing to be doing to begin with.


Thanks for reading, and please be observant and cautious if you attempt doing anything similar to what I have been doing in any capacity. I would even go so far as to tell adults that attempt regular

mewing to be observant and cautious as well. After all very little is known about it as of right now.


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[–]kobe3372 points1 years ago
I know that you don't want to show before and after pics but I feel that it would strengthen your argument of not putting upwards force with tongue.
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[–]test151515 (deleted by user)1 point1 years ago
I should probably update my post once again, because I am still uncertain of what has happened in me.
In a few weeks I should know a lot more since I will drop down in body fat and do some other things that could be of much relevance for my assessment of my current state.
I want to point out that I do not know at all whether it is bad to push upwards with force during large amounts of times, I only suspect that it could be so right now based on my own results. However, I have changed my mind many times in the past about whether I have been going in the right direction or not, and I might once again do that.
It is tricky... Things change but it is hard to get a good grasp of the totality. And now, it seems as if I might have entered a new phase of change. I have seen a bit of additional of up-swing movement lately it seems. For example, there was a point where I seemingly mostly had gotten lateral development, at that time I was quite unhappy about my change. That changed as I kept developing though.
I will know more in a few weeks from now, or a few months from now. I might update the thread as I learn more.
For time time being people need to know that there could be some unpleasant things that develops during the process and that the maxilla certainly seems very malleable/growable (even in adults). Also, I do not know where I am heading, I hope for the best.
My picture comparisons are problematic. I should have applied a standardized way of taking good pictures. I have not. I have tried to recreate certain before pictures to the best of my ability, but it is still hard to tell based on those comparisons. Like written above, some things might have improved while others might have not. I hope I am on the right track but I honestly do not know. People need to be warned.
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[–]allurepedia (deleted by user)1 point1 years ago
Extremely helpful reading and it came in the best moment for me since i just starting this journey, for the past days i've been applying strong upward force against the palate with my tongue thinking that would speed up the process, but i'm very grateful that i came across your post. So what are you going to dk now? Are you going to lwt your face rest or are you going to keep the regular mewing?
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[–]test1515151 point1 years ago
Hey.
I have since I wrote this thread seen more forwards development. However, I still notice that the anterior parts of my dental arches have yet to change a whole lot. They are most likely located more forwards (and probably also more upwards) compared to when I started, but the width in the anterior part is still very narrow and I still have a V-shaped upper dental arch for this reason.
I will start palatal expansion treatment soon as I continue to mew (with or without force, probably the former). I believe this will fill in the development I have yet to see.
I believe the reason I saw such massive widening in the beginning was because I saw a lot of lateral bone growth during that stage. My maxilla in particular was narrow when I started. The widening happened to a certain point and then seemingly stopped. Since then it seems I have only seen further forwards (possibly also upwards) development. So today I actually believe that what I have done perhaps has not been bad after all.
Having said this, I know I really freaked out once it hit me what had happened about 5 months in so I still want to warn people. It might be best to go about the whole thing a bit slower and more carefully by just applying "regular mewing". The thing is I had no clue what to expect in the beginning. I figured that it perhaps was impossible to expand as an adult, so I just went all in.
Maxilla expansion can be serious stuff, this woman probably saw something very similar to what I saw initially and she was not happy about it either: https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/expanding-palate-effect-on-cheekbones/
So yeah, people need to be warned so that they go about things carefully and so that they are very observant about how they change.
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[–]allurepedia (deleted by user)1 point1 year ago
You know! When I first read about Orthrotopics it was very vague, I just saw a random video on youtube and after that, I started applying an extremely strong force in the mid-palate ONLY, that was like 4 months ago, about a month ago I noticed my face like deformed, like narrower, longer and with extremely puffy cheeks, I'm been reading about allergies, thinking i might have one, or weight gain even and nothing could explain the weird bizarre change in my face, there were moments i thought it was because of the tongue exercise but i refuse to believe it could happen that fast (especially in adults) now i'm starting to freak out
BTW sorry for my english. I'm not native
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[–]test1515152 points1 years ago
Well if you have been pushing upwards with your tongue it is impossible for your face to become longer and narrower.
Let me guess, you are basing this on certain pictures you have seen of yourself? Do not draw conclusions about the shape of your face by looking at selfies taken at you with a mobile phone (that usually is equipped with a "fisheye lense") at close distance. They will distort your face. It will look longer and more narrow. See these links for some info:
http://www.shortcourses.com/tabletop/lighting2-16.html
https://bakerdh.wordpress.com/2012/05/05/face-distortion-is-not-due-to-lens-distortion/
https://www.livescience.com/61896-why-selfies-distort-your-face-math.html
For the same reason, do not base conclusions about the shape of your face by looking at yourself in the mirror at a very close distance. Stand at least half a meter away from the mirror.
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[–]allurepedia (deleted by user)1 point1 years ago
But i was pushing ONLY in the mid palate, actually now that i'm checking my palate i have a way more pronounced deep area, i remember it flatter, also i wasn't aware that you are suppose to keep your teeth in light contact and lips sealed. And actually in selfies i look normal because i can choose the angle that i like the most, but when i look at the mirror the difference is very noticeable since i am very aware of every detail of my face, i wondering if doing an "anti mewing" would help my face go back to normal or if the bone changes are here to stay. Now i would read as much as i can to improve
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[–]test1515151 point1 years ago
I was pushing a lot upwards without having my teeth in direct contact with each other in the beginning since I had so little space for my tongue. Only when I gained more space could I more easily mew with my teeth in direct contact.
As I did this my face did not get longer and I could feel my upper palate flatten a little, which is expected to happen as expansion takes place. I have a real hard time believing that you by pushing upwards with your tongue have deepened your upper arch and made your face longer. If anything a slight effect to the opposite should have happened.
But my guess is that nothing has happened in you, because surely you have not been doing it for hours and hours every day?
Even if you have though, it should not have resulted in lengthening of your face. If anything it could result in potential widening of your maxilla (like it did for me).
In fact, I believe I might actually have a slightly shorter distance from chin to pupils today compared to when I started. It certainly has not gotten longer at least, and I see no way that your face could have gotten longer by doing something similar to what I have been doing.
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[–]allurepedia (deleted by user)1 point1 years ago
It's kinda complicated right? Like everything, maybe i'm being paranoid, i sent you a chat btw
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[–]test1515151 point1 years ago
Yes, there is a lot of uncertainty today regarding maxillary development in humans, and especially in adults.
If you meant that you sent me a PM (private message) it seems that it was not delivered. I have not received a PM from you.
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[–]allurepedia (deleted by user)2 points1 years ago
Well i clicked in the "Start chat" button here, anyways i just sent you the message
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>mewing
>progress
>30 years old
 
MogTheMogger

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cope all you want, but my jaw looks more sharper and better than before. even my mom mentioned. maybe it helps more but thats just what i've see.
 
Deleted member 5293

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no pics no read
 
Mr.cope

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MogTheMogger said:
cope all you want, but my jaw looks more sharper and better than before. even my mom mentioned. maybe it helps more but thats just what i've see.
Hyoid bone raises idiot
 
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Mr.cope said:
Hyoid bone raises idiot

no shit you absolute nigger, not like my zygos looks more defined.
 
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Not a single letter was read
 
Mr.cope

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MogTheMogger said:
no shit you absolute nigger, not like my zygos looks more defined.
Placebo
 
Slayerino

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A single fucking letter wasn't read of this autistic Reddit rant
 
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RAITEIII

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Vidyacoper said:
he's just lying or placebo effect unless he actually sends images, mewing is cope
I'm yet to see them pictures.

After i saw a guy who had been mewing for 5 years showing his "results" I'm not believing anything lol.

Still it confuses mr when i see people say it expanded their palate or such lol
 
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RAITEIII said:
I'm yet to see them pictures.

After i saw a guy who had been mewing for 5 years showing his "results" I'm not believing anything lol.

Still it confuses mr when i see people say it expanded their palate or such lol
yeah exactly all of this shit is anecdotal, and any "results" arent from mewing itself, sometimes chewing and sometimes just literally surgeries
 
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Patient A said:
Not a single word
Tbh still not read a single word 1 year later but mewing is cope
 
Last edited:
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Mewing, facepulling and every other procedure based on Wolff's law is cope past the age of 12.
If you're still messing with this shit in 2021 you're legit fucked in the head.
 

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