New MSE paper

[Deleted member 4790]

Just in case you are interested, it is open access. PDF attached for a better view.

 

[goat2x]

"The frontozygomatic, frontoalveolar, and frontodental angles were not significant different"
that means we cant except better undereye support with mse?

 

[buckchadley31]

Tl, couldn't read cause i'm retarded

 

[Deleted member 685]

Tldr can I expect a wider face and better ipd?

 

[goat2x]

Tldr can I expect a wider face and better ipd?

Tl, couldn't read cause i'm retarded

tl:dr
-mse/marpe is better than palate expanders because its pure skeletal
-doesnt tip your teeth
-pretty signficant zygo increase(wider face)
-midfacial expansion( wider face)
-no changes in frontzygomatic bones(so probably not much better undereye support)
they didnt measure ipd

 

[Deleted member 4790]

Just watch the CT images.

But there’s nothing new, and it’s pure logic.

 

[goat2x]

@Gudru here is the image

its increases ipd im sure

 

[Deleted member 3990]

They just have proven the things they discovered ?

 

[elfmaxx]

@Gudru here is the image
View attachment 524272


its increases ipd im sure

Looks like an orangutan skull.

 

[goat2x]

Looks like an orangutan skull.

orangutans mog weak pathetic humans

 

[spark]

Just in case you are interested, it is open access. PDF attached for a better view.

How do I interpret this older MSE study. You claimed you can't get any real forward growth and a CCW with a facemask yet they showed results here:

The efficacy of maxillary protraction protocols with the micro-implant-assisted rapid palatal expander (MARPE) and the novel N2 mini-implant—a finite element study - Progress in Orthodontics

Background Maxillary protraction with the novel N2 mini-implant- and micro-implant-assisted rapid palatal expander (MARPE) can potentially provide significant skeletal effects without surgery, even in older patients where conventional facemask therapy has limited skeletal effects. However, the...

progressinorthodontics.springeropen.com

 

[spark]

"The frontozygomatic, frontoalveolar, and frontodental angles were not significant different"
that means we cant except better undereye support with mse?

Interesting. Every after photo I have seen produced a better undereeye.

 

[goat2x]

Interesting. Every after photo I have seen produced a better undereeye.

Maybe soft tissue changes
But idk

 

[Deleted member 4790]

How do I interpret this older MSE study. You claimed you can't get any real forward growth and a CCW with a facemask yet they showed results here:

The efficacy of maxillary protraction protocols with the micro-implant-assisted rapid palatal expander (MARPE) and the novel N2 mini-implant—a finite element study - Progress in Orthodontics

Background Maxillary protraction with the novel N2 mini-implant- and micro-implant-assisted rapid palatal expander (MARPE) can potentially provide significant skeletal effects without surgery, even in older patients where conventional facemask therapy has limited skeletal effects. However, the...

progressinorthodontics.springeropen.com

1.- They are simulations.

2.- you can get a bit of forward growth at younger ages. I don’t think there‘s a significant CCW of the upper jaw in adults

 

[Gaia262]

Just in case you are interested, it is open access. PDF attached for a better view.

Just tagging some high iq people, as I don't want autists pulling your thread apart or disrespecting your efforts here.

@Lorsss
@CristianT
@facemaxxed
@Gosick
@cardiologist
@wereqryan
@Dr Shekelberg
@reptiles
@Blackmannnns
@Elias
@Golden Glass
@aut0phobic

 

[Deleted member 3020]

How do I interpret this older MSE study. You claimed you can't get any real forward growth and a CCW with a facemask yet they showed results here:

The efficacy of maxillary protraction protocols with the micro-implant-assisted rapid palatal expander (MARPE) and the novel N2 mini-implant—a finite element study - Progress in Orthodontics

Background Maxillary protraction with the novel N2 mini-implant- and micro-implant-assisted rapid palatal expander (MARPE) can potentially provide significant skeletal effects without surgery, even in older patients where conventional facemask therapy has limited skeletal effects. However, the...

progressinorthodontics.springeropen.com

Don’t expect any CCW rotation with a MSE+FM treatment.

 

[Deleted member 5385]

Don’t expect any CCW rotation with a MSE+FM treatment.

Only with MARPE

 

[Deleted member 5385]

1.- They are simulations.

2.- you can get a bit of forward growth at younger ages. I don’t think there‘s a significant CCW of the upper jaw in adults

Sad that they could't perform IT on people for example on prisoners or on those who will get death penalty.
Imagine giving prisoner horse midface with downward pulling and after that prisoner will be ridiculed to the death and back by other prisoners

 

[JosephGarrot123]

I'm considering getting this however my face is already wide as fuck idk man

 

[Deleted member 4790]

Only with MARPE

not at all

 

[Deleted member 5385]

not at all

So what can give ccw rotation of ENTIRE maxilla?
MARPE Has placement at the front of palate unlike MSE

 

[Slyfex8]

The higher we go in the face, the less it is widened?

 

[goat2x]

Don’t expect any CCW rotation with a MSE+FM treatment.

they pulled it downwards in the study

 

[Deleted member 3020]

they pulled it downwards in the study

Yes. It was a terrible study tbh, they didn’t do many force vectors and has nothing to do with MSE since MSE has 4 screws on the back and middle maxilla.

 

[Deleted member 5385]

Yes. It was a terrible study tbh, they didn’t do many force vectors and has nothing to do with MSE since MSE has 4 screws on the back and middle maxilla.

So all these simulations were MARPE's right?

 

[Deleted member 3020]

So all these simulations were MARPE's right?

Yes.
‘The efficacy of maxillary protraction protocols with the micro-implant-assisted rapid palatal expander (MARPE) and the novel N2 mini-implant—a finite element study’

 

[Deleted member 5385]

Yes.
‘The efficacy of maxillary protraction protocols with the micro-implant-assisted rapid palatal expander (MARPE) and the novel N2 mini-implant—a finite element study’

So we doesn't know how MSE can behave with different angles of pulling?

 

[Deleted member 4790]

So what can give ccw rotation of ENTIRE maxilla?
MARPE Has placement at the front of palate unlike MSE

Only a Le Fort osteotomy designed to do that. And, obviously, it only moves the bottom part

 

[Deleted member 3020]

So we doesn't know how MSE can behave with different angles of pulling?

No, from simulations we don’t. But logically I would think since it’s the back and the middle maxilla being pulled, it would cause a translation movement of the maxilla

 

[Deleted member 4790]

So we doesn't know how MSE can behave with different angles of pulling?

I really doubt the angle has much influence, but I haven’t looked into it. I don’t really care, honestly.

 

[Deleted member 8486]

I really doubt the angle has much influence, but I haven’t looked into it. I don’t really care, honestly.

Is mse and fm basically like lefort 3

 

[Deleted member 8486]

No, from simulations we don’t. But logically I would think since it’s the back and the middle maxilla being pulled, it would cause a translation movement of the maxilla

Where do I get mse

 

[spark]

I really doubt the angle has much influence, but I haven’t looked into it. I don’t really care, honestly.

Why wouldn't you care though. Since lefort 1 only moves the bottom part it's totally insufficient, especially given how extremely invasive it is. MSE+FM (provided it is effective) could be the way forward. This facemask provider claims to have done rotation in a senior patient:

403 Forbidden

Even a non-bone borne facemask was able to cause some protraction while applying a mere force of 500g (opposed to the more common 1000g from what I have seen):

Expansion/Facemask Treatment of an Adult Class III Malocclusion

The orthodontic treatment of class III malocclusion with a maxillary deficiency is often treated with maxillary protraction with or without expansion. Skeletal and dental changes have been documented which have combined for the protraction of the maxilla and the correction of the class III...

www.hindawi.com

 

[Deleted member 4790]

Why wouldn't you care though. Since lefort 1 only moves the bottom part it's totally insufficient, especially given how extremely invasive it is. MSE+FM (provided it is effective) could be the way forward. This facemask provider claims to have done rotation in a senior patient:

403 Forbidden

Even a non-bone borne facemask was able to cause some protraction while applying a mere force of 500g (opposed to the more common 1000g from what I have seen):

Expansion/Facemask Treatment of an Adult Class III Malocclusion

The orthodontic treatment of class III malocclusion with a maxillary deficiency is often treated with maxillary protraction with or without expansion. Skeletal and dental changes have been documented which have combined for the protraction of the maxilla and the correction of the class III...

www.hindawi.com

I meant I don’t care about looking into which angle is better. I think a bone anchored protraction 24/7 is the way to go, and that only allows one angle. And if the face mask is used (besides the 24/7 BAMP), not many angles are comfortable.

so I think the angle question is a pointless discussion.

 

[Deleted member 4790]

Is mse and fm basically like lefort 3

MSE itself is like a small Le fort 3. FM is an extra.

 

[spark]

I meant I don’t care about looking into which angle is better. I think a bone anchored protraction 24/7 is the way to go, and that only allows one angle. And if the face mask is used (besides the 24/7 BAMP), not many angles are comfortable.

so I think the angle question is a pointless discussion.

I am a little conflicted then. Are you talking about child patients only now? Because earlier you said there is no way to get any real protraction in adults and now you are pondering over how is a bone anchored protraction the way to go. Also what do you say about the crane facemask I posted in my last post regarding the senior patient:

403 Forbidden

I don't think I'd have a problem wearing the thing for let's say a year 20 hours a day if it produced results.

 

[Deleted member 4790]

I think I didn’t say that. If I recall correctly, I said I think no maxillary CCW rotation is possible in adults. Of course dental intrusions are possible and that allows the mandible to autorotate a bit. But that is not CCW rotation of the maxilla

 

[Deleted member 3020]

I think I didn’t say that. If I recall correctly, I said I think no maxillary CCW rotation is possible in adults. Of course dental intrusions are possible and that allows the mandible to autorotate a bit. But that is not CCW rotation of the maxilla

Do we need CCW rotation to avoid increasing an overbite? Or can we just pull with MSE/FM and expect the mandible to follow?

 

[Deleted member 8486]

MSE itself is like a small Le fort 3. FM is an extra.

seems like MSE is a good procedure. Is there any flaws with mse ???

 

[Bromose]

I think I didn’t say that. If I recall correctly, I said I think no maxillary CCW rotation is possible in adults. Of course dental intrusions are possible and that allows the mandible to autorotate a bit. But that is not CCW rotation of the maxilla

Why do you think it becomes impossible in adults?

 

[Deleted member 4790]

Why do you think it becomes impossible in adults?

Just a feeling. But that’s the correct way to think unless proven otherwise, isn’t it? At least considering the current knowledge.

Of course, people are free to keep some magical thinking.

 

[Deleted member 4790]

Do we need CCW rotation to avoid increasing an overbite? Or can we just pull with MSE/FM and expect the mandible to follow?

Mandible won’t follow forward

 

[Deleted member 3020]

Mandible won’t follow forward

Welp.

 

[Deleted member 4790]

seems like MSE is a good procedure. Is there any flaws with mse ???

it’s a good procedure to expand the upper jaw and nasal passage (and even the rest of the midface, a bit). But only if needed of course.

it changes the bite, obviously.

 

[s3-s3]

Just in case you are interested, it is open access. PDF attached for a better view.

In a short..Does this device give your maxilla CCW rotation or not?

 

[Deleted member 4790]

In a short..Does this device give your maxilla CCW rotation or not?

I don’t think so

 

[s3-s3]

I don’t think so

Thank you. Another question..Does FaceMask work on 18 yo if you use it 20hours a day for CCW?

 

[Deleted member 4790]

I don’t think it works for CCW, just for protraction and if combined with MSE or similar.

 

[Deleted member 8486]

I don’t think it works for CCW, just for protraction and if combined with MSE or similar.

Are u even a real surgeon??? Prove me you are one and not just larping as some surgeon in Spain
if you are a surgeon, I will pay for your services after covid crisis
toma una selfie

 

[Deleted member 4790]

Just check my profile, you have my website there. Not a fancy one, though, I’ve never cared much about it. You can email me at sergio@

My purpose here is just to educate, not to get patients. Of course I would not mind treating somebody in real need for help but in my opinion most people here have unrealistic expectations or need some other type of treatments.