# how orthodontist are ruining your face #24: herbst appliance and rubber bands are stunning your maxilla growth!



## imuglymomadmitit (Nov 10, 2019)

> "*The headgear effect of the Herbst appliance: a cephalometric long-term study.*
> 
> The short- and long-term effects of the Herbst appliance on the maxillary complex were evaluated in 45 patients who had Class II malocclusions. The patients were followed for 6.4 years (5 to 10 years) after treatment. Lateral cephalograms from before and after 7 months of treatment, 6 months, and 6.4 years after treatment were analyzed. During Herbst treatment the upper molars were distalized in 96% of the subjects (maximum 4.5 mm), and the upper molars were intruded in 69% of the subjects (maximum 3.5 mm). The maxillary occlusal plane was opened in 82% of the subjects (maximum 7.5 degrees). Sagittal maxillary jaw base position seemed unaffected by therapy. A downward tipping of the palatal plane was noted in 47% of the subjects (maximum 2 degrees). During the first 6 months after therapy most of the treatment changes reverted. During the following 5.9 years after treatment, normal growth developmental changes prevailed: the upper molars moved mesially, and the teeth extruded, the occlusal plane closed, the maxilla grew anteriorly, and the palatal plane tipped downward. In conclusion the Herbst appliance exhibited a pronounced high-pull headgear effect on the maxillary complex. Without proper retention, however, the effect seemed to be of a temporary nature."




the herbst appliance got developed in 1902. at a time where no antibiotics or planes existed. today herbst appliance has grown to be the most popular functional appliance for the treatment of Class II malocclusions


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## FromEE (Nov 10, 2019)

OKAY TELL ME WHAT I SHOULD DO? IS IT OKAY IF I GET JUST FILLINGS AND INVISALIGN?


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## Deleted member 685 (Nov 10, 2019)

All orthodontists deserve to have their head cut off


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## imuglymomadmitit (Nov 10, 2019)

Gudru said:


> All orthodontists deserve to have their head cut off



the should only be allowed to make the teeth straight to prepare people for jaw surgery. sadly at the moment the system encourages orthodontist to disfigure faces for financial gains.


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## Superking (Nov 10, 2019)

what is the best way to get a gap in your teeth fixed without harming your facial structure? i am wondering if i should get get veneers or something


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## Marsiere214 (Nov 10, 2019)

Superking said:


> what is the best way to get a gap in your teeth fixed without harming your facial structure? i am wondering if i should get get veneers or something


get rope


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## Slyfex8 (Nov 11, 2019)

Rubber bands only fuck the maxilla on the alveolar ridge range, it's called orthodontic camouflage, they basically moving the upper alveolar ridge backward relative to the rest of the maxilla, the lower alveolar ridge forward relative to the rest of the mandible, preventing true correction of the overbite, letting you with a recessed lower jaw/TMJ since the lower jaw can't move forward, stucked by the upper and lower alveolar ridges. On the maxilla, pulling the alveolar ridge backward probably also make the philtrum longer, more vertical and the nose appear bigger.


If you get fucked by this kind of rubber bands, FAGGA could half fix the problem by moving the upper alveolar ridge forward and so allowing the mandible to jut more, but your lower alveolar ridge will not move and will stay forward relative to the mandible, making the chin smaller.


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## Deleted member 2227 (Nov 11, 2019)

I already recessed, imagine if i get this lmao


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## RAITEIII (Nov 11, 2019)

Slyfex8 said:


> Rubber bands only fuck the maxilla on the alveolar ridge range, it's called orthodontic camouflage, they basically moving the upper alveolar ridge backward relative to the rest of the maxilla, the lower alveolar ridge forward relative to the rest of the mandible, preventing true correction of the overbite, letting you with a recessed lower jaw/TMJ since the lower jaw can't move forward, stucked by the upper and lower alveolar ridges. On the maxilla, pulling the alveolar ridge backward probably also make the philtrum longer, more vertical and the nose appear bigger.
> 
> 
> If you get fucked by this kind of rubber bands, FAGGA could half fix the problem by moving the upper alveolar ridge forward and so allowing the mandible to jut more, but your lower alveolar ridge will not move and will stay forward relative to the mandible, making the chin smaller.


Fucked up face by those rubber bands here. I used them for almost one month but the change was immediate. I felt how my face was sunken...

And yeah your philtrum looks longer because your lips are hanging due to the change in hard tissue support.

I need to do more research because orthodontists don't want to engage this conversation but you should supposedly be able to fix it if you get a reverse of what you had done using the same rubber bands.

The problem is that they will REFUSE refuse to do it because your bite won't be "the way it should be".

I'm still STUCK with the braces on and refuse to continue the treatment because they want to sink my face even more.

The only name to what was done to my face is crime, one that i am paying financially mentally and emotionally.

I don't have many options, I'm preparing myself to fake some condition so they fix it...

Their work is flawed in so many ways and what drives me the most nuts is that they act like you are crazy... They weren't doing it to help me they were doing it to help their POCKETBOOK get bigger.

Also i want to talk about the wrinkling that occurs in your mouth area its just unbelievable because it falls after they completely crash your arch into a smaller one


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## Slyfex8 (Nov 11, 2019)

RAITEIII said:


> Fucked up face by those rubber bands here. I used them for almost one month but the change was immediate. I felt how my face was sunken...
> 
> And yeah your philtrum looks longer because your lips are hanging due to the change in hard tissue support.
> 
> ...



Actually Class III elastics are probably able to induce the reverse movement on the alveolar ridge: Pulling the lower alveolar ridge back, pushing the upper alveolar ridge forward, if you use it long enough I'm pretty sure you can get your overbite back, but you will need to fix the underlying cause of this overbite... If you got palate expansion it could be enough maybe, I read somewhere that you need to jut your lower jaw by 1-3mm to allow the condyle to heal in first time, allowing mandible forward movement.

Also there is a guy on this forum that said we should push our lower front teeth against to the upper front one as a resting position during the day to induce this movement on the alveolar ridges. He said he got great results in 1 month.


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## cutecel (Nov 11, 2019)

Superking said:


> what is the best way to get a gap in your teeth fixed without harming your facial structure? i am wondering if i should get get veneers or something



I also have gap teeth due to being born without the front two incisors, my sister got her gap closed when she hit puberty whereas I didn't but we still pretty much look the same aside from the obvious skull differences. I would like to get implants but I think I might just leave it tbh


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## Afk (Nov 14, 2019)

RAITEIII said:


> Fucked up face by those rubber bands here. I used them for almost one month but the change was immediate. I felt how my face was sunken...
> 
> And yeah your philtrum looks longer because your lips are hanging due to the change in hard tissue support.
> 
> ...



I also use class 2 rubber bands. I don't know if I should do it or that way home is different. Your bands went from your fangs to your lower second molars?


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## RAITEIII (Nov 14, 2019)

Afk said:


> Your bands went from your fangs to your lower second molars?


Yeah


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## 6ft8InTheNetherlands (Nov 14, 2019)

i had a maloclussion at the molars after braces, pretty much an open bite. not sure why that happened. they fixed it with composite after


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## 7three4 (Nov 14, 2019)

Slyfex8 said:


> Actually Class III elastics are probably able to induce the reverse movement on the alveolar ridge: Pulling the lower alveolar ridge back, pushing the upper alveolar ridge forward, if you use it long enough I'm pretty sure you can get your overbite back, but you will need to fix the underlying cause of this overbite... If you got palate expansion it could be enough maybe, I read somewhere that you need to jut your lower jaw by 1-3mm to allow the condyle to heal in first time, allowing mandible forward movement.
> 
> Also there is a guy on this forum that said we should push our lower front teeth against to the upper front one as a resting position during the day to induce this movement on the alveolar ridges. He said he got great results in 1 month.


Can you explain this further ? How would you push your lower front teeth against the upper front teeth if you have an overbite ?


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## Bewusst (Nov 14, 2019)

Slyfex8 said:


> Rubber bands only fuck the maxilla on the alveolar ridge range, it's called orthodontic camouflage, they basically moving the upper alveolar ridge backward relative to the rest of the maxilla, the lower alveolar ridge forward relative to the rest of the mandible, preventing true correction of the overbite, letting you with a recessed lower jaw/TMJ since the lower jaw can't move forward, stucked by the upper and lower alveolar ridges. On the maxilla, pulling the alveolar ridge backward probably also make the philtrum longer, more vertical and the nose appear bigger.
> 
> 
> If you get fucked by this kind of rubber bands, FAGGA could half fix the problem by moving the upper alveolar ridge forward and so allowing the mandible to jut more, but your lower alveolar ridge will not move and will stay forward relative to the mandible, making the chin smaller.


That explains why my upper lip is still much more forward and why I look reccessed despite no more overbite. And I can't even get rid of the retainer because it's too expensive. Tried it with my hands already.


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## KEy21 (Nov 14, 2019)

I wore rubber bands for a long time because I was too lazy and missed tons of dentist appointments as a young kid cuz I wanted to play and have fun and not have my teeth yanked at.

If my parents were not low IQ they would have forced me to go and knew the implications.


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## shibo (Nov 14, 2019)

What do i do then to avoid orthodontist fucking me up. 18 and havent got braces or any teeth removed


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## KrissKross (Dec 8, 2020)

Gudru said:


> All orthodontists deserve to have their head cut off


Based


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## Agendum (Dec 8, 2020)

I'd like to see this discussion go on further, I'm concerned for myself as I have the anchorage point on my molars but with invisilign. 

I'm set to do the MSE FM but I don't know what my orthos intentions are. My Ortho was saying it was to bring my lower jaw forward rather than my upper jaw back. My teeth are a shit show and might have to do it just to have a normal bite but in recessed and downswung as it is. If she secretly intends to recess or downswing my upper jaw why even allow me to do FM.


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## MedMaxxing (Dec 8, 2020)

Agendum said:


> I'd like to see this discussion go on further, I'm concerned for myself as I have the anchorage point on my molars but with invisilign.
> 
> I'm set to do the MSE FM but I don't know what my orthos intentions are. My Ortho was saying it was to bring my lower jaw forward rather than my upper jaw back. My teeth are a shit show and might have to do it just to have a normal bite but in recessed and downswung as it is. If she secretly intends to recess or downswing my upper jaw why even allow me to do FM.



If your lower maxilla is downswung at all, do not waste your time with MSE and FM. Get Bimax with rotation.


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## KrissKross (Dec 8, 2020)

Agendum said:


> I'd like to see this discussion go on further, I'm concerned for myself as I have the anchorage point on my molars but with invisilign.
> 
> I'm set to do the MSE FM but I don't know what my orthos intentions are. My Ortho was saying it was to bring my lower jaw forward rather than my upper jaw back. My teeth are a shit show and might have to do it just to have a normal bite but in recessed and downswung as it is. If she secretly intends to recess or downswing my upper jaw why even allow me to do FM.


I had elastics and they recessed me I think 

my maxilla is so downswung now


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## Deleted member 7901 (Dec 8, 2020)

KrissKross said:


> I had elastics and they recessed me I think
> 
> my maxilla is so downswung now


didn't seem to really change anything for me tbh


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## Agendum (Dec 8, 2020)

MedMaxxing said:


> If your lower maxilla is downswung at all, do not waste your time with MSE and FM. Get Bimax with rotation.


Im already halfway through the treatment but I have all three:
Narrow palate
recession
downswung

I plan on doing bimax if I can afford it after I finish MSE+FM.


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## KrissKross (Dec 9, 2020)

Agendum said:


> Im already halfway through the treatment but I have all three:
> Narrow palate
> recession
> downswung
> ...


Mse hmm. What do you plan to do for your mandible? You have to widen it as well.


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## Agendum (Dec 9, 2020)

KrissKross said:


> Mse hmm. What do you plan to do for your mandible? You have to widen it as well.


Im having a moderate mse expansion, bringing the mandible foreward helps with this as the lower dental arch is somewhat adequate.


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## Looksmax25 (Dec 9, 2020)

Before I had my bimax a Dr in NYC said my maxilla wasn't recessed and that I should just get ortho to get my overbite back and only advance lower jaw??? I was like WTF


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## MedMaxxing (Dec 9, 2020)

Agendum said:


> Im already halfway through the treatment but I have all three:
> Narrow palate
> recession
> downswung
> ...



Narrow palate is nowhere near as important as the other two. Fixing the other two will literally fix any functional problems you have and you can get SARPE during the surgery too.


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## KrissKross (Dec 9, 2020)

Agendum said:


> Im having a moderate mse expansion, bringing the mandible foreward helps with this as the lower dental arch is somewhat adequate.


You’ll end up with a brody bite and won’t be able to eat, be careful


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## KrissKross (Dec 9, 2020)

Looksmax25 said:


> Before I had my bimax a Dr in NYC said my maxilla wasn't recessed and that I should just get ortho to get my overbite back and only advance lower jaw??? I was like WTF


Show maxilla 
We’ll be the judge of whether it’s recessed or not


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## Looksmax25 (Dec 9, 2020)

KrissKross said:


> Show maxilla
> We’ll be the judge of whether it’s recessed or not



Too late... already had bimax with 4mm maxilla advancement and my breathing + sleep is a million times better so I guess it was


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## AscendingHero (May 15, 2021)

Slyfex8 said:


> Rubber bands only fuck the maxilla on the alveolar ridge range, it's called orthodontic camouflage, they basically moving the upper alveolar ridge backward relative to the rest of the maxilla, the lower alveolar ridge forward relative to the rest of the mandible, preventing true correction of the overbite, letting you with a recessed lower jaw/TMJ since the lower jaw can't move forward, stucked by the upper and lower alveolar ridges. On the maxilla, pulling the alveolar ridge backward probably also make the philtrum longer, more vertical and the nose appear bigger.
> 
> 
> If you get fucked by this kind of rubber bands, FAGGA could half fix the problem by moving the upper alveolar ridge forward and so allowing the mandible to jut more, but your lower alveolar ridge will not move and will stay forward relative to the mandible, making the chin smaller.


*So then what's the best way to fix a class 2 maloclussion with an overjet (overly proclined incisors)*


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## Zenturio (May 16, 2021)

Slyfex8 said:


> Rubber bands only fuck the maxilla on the alveolar ridge range, it's called orthodontic camouflage, they basically moving the upper alveolar ridge backward relative to the rest of the maxilla, the lower alveolar ridge forward relative to the rest of the mandible, preventing true correction of the overbite, letting you with a recessed lower jaw/TMJ since the lower jaw can't move forward, stucked by the upper and lower alveolar ridges. On the maxilla, pulling the alveolar ridge backward probably also make the philtrum longer, more vertical and the nose appear bigger.
> 
> 
> If you get fucked by this kind of rubber bands, FAGGA could half fix the problem by moving the upper alveolar ridge forward and so allowing the mandible to jut more, but your lower alveolar ridge will not move and will stay forward relative to the mandible, making the chin smaller.


I got treated with elastics, I'm 21 now. Can I get FAGGA + genioplasty to fix it?


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## Slyfex8 (May 16, 2021)

AscendingHero said:


> *So then what's the best way to fix a class 2 maloclussion with an overjet (overly proclined incisors)*


You just get your overjet teeth ligned with the others teeth using braces and only braces. But you don't get your whole alveolar ridge pulled back.

Then you get under the knife to get your lower jaw advanced using bsso. Depending of your growth pattern it could be double jaw with ccw to as most class 2 have very fucked up jaw developement.



Zenturio said:


> I got treated with elastics, I'm 21 now. Can I get FAGGA + genioplasty to fix it?



The fagga was mostly the first thing I got in my head. Generally when you are working with a knowledgeable surgeon he can work the restore your normal alveolar ridge position with orthodontics before jaw surgery if he estimate it's needed.

No don't just get a genioplasty for real jaw recession. Almost all the class 2 individuals just have recessed vertical growing jaw that need ccw rotation and advancement. Genioplasty is for an actual small mandible if after your jaw got advanced your chin still looks small.


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## Zenturio (May 16, 2021)

Slyfex8 said:


> The fagga was mostly the first thing I got in my head. Generally when you are working with a knowledgeable surgeon he can work the restore your normal alveolar ridge position with orthodontics before jaw surgery if he estimate it's needed.
> 
> No don't just get a genioplasty for real jaw recession. Almost all the class 2 individuals just have recessed vertical growing jaw that need ccw rotation and advancement. Genioplasty is for an actual small mandible if after your jaw got advanced your chin still looks small.


I did abit of research about fagga just now and tbh its a big cope. Better off to get bimax, once you left the development stage only thing that works are osteotomies ngl all this expansion shit is cope.
Do you think Dr. Zarrinbal would be a good surgeon for this? Also can I DM you with pictures of my case so you can give me more detailed advice it would really be appreciated


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## Slyfex8 (May 16, 2021)

Zenturio said:


> I did abit of research about fagga just now and tbh its a big cope. Better off to get bimax, once you left the development stage only thing that works are osteotomies ngl all this expansion shit is cope.
> Do you think Dr. Zarrinbal would be a good surgeon for this? Also can I DM you with pictures of my case so you can give me more detailed advice it would really be appreciated



Jaw surgery can definitely still lead to great results even while keeping your fucked up alveolar ridges relation. Zarrinbal seems to be a great surgeon so far just never go to your fucked up local surgeon for that surgery. I had a girl in my high school that was already ogre looking because of underbite and a kinda widish nose. I deduced she got a jaw surgery with a shitty local surgeon because then one day I seen her at school with a fixed underbite but horribly jutting lower jaw and as her upper jaw got advanced without the surgeon caring about aesthetic an HORRIBLY widened nose. Your shitty local surgeon don't care even a bit about aesthetic, ccw rotation and anticipation of nose base changes.


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## AscendingHero (May 16, 2021)

Slyfex8 said:


> You just get your overjet teeth ligned with the others teeth using braces and only braces. But you don't get your whole alveolar ridge pulled back.


Why don't they have to pull my whole alveolar ridge back? Should I use bands for it? Why not use Invasalign?



Slyfex8 said:


> Then you get under the knife to get your lower jaw advanced using bsso. Depending of your growth pattern it could be double jaw with ccw to as most class 2 have very fucked up jaw developement.


Could IMDO help do the same if not better results than BSSO?


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## Slyfex8 (May 16, 2021)

AscendingHero said:


> Why don't they have to pull my whole alveolar ridge back? Should I use bands for it? Why not use Invasalign?
> 
> 
> Could IMDO help do the same if not better results than BSSO?



For pure forward movement of the jaw it does works, but people with jaw problem needs a CCW rotation very often or it looks bad


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## AscendingHero (May 16, 2021)

Slyfex8 said:


> For pure forward movement of the jaw it does works, but people with jaw problem needs a CCW rotation very often or it looks bad


Also if one has a narrow palate+overjet but fixes the overjet but doesn't get expansion, will the teeth relaspe?


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## one job away (May 16, 2021)

imuglymomadmitit said:


> View attachment 161012
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Reminder that op is 300iq and smarter than thousands of studied doctors and scientists


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## Deleted member 11748 (May 16, 2021)

too late


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## homo_faber (May 16, 2021)

one job away said:


> Reminder that op is 300iq and smarter than thousands of studied doctors and scientists


isnt he quoting a study


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## one job away (May 16, 2021)

homo_faber said:


> isnt he quoting a study


So what ? You can find a study that says literally anything about everything. And THOUSANDS upon thousands professionals say it works. Who should i trust mhhh

A rule of thumb is if the rich and famous get the same procedure it’s state of the Art.


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## TheHandcel (Thursday at 4:42 AM)

Slyfex8 said:


> Rubber bands only fuck the maxilla on the alveolar ridge range, it's called orthodontic camouflage, they basically moving the upper alveolar ridge backward relative to the rest of the maxilla, the lower alveolar ridge forward relative to the rest of the mandible, preventing true correction of the overbite, letting you with a recessed lower jaw/TMJ since the lower jaw can't move forward, stucked by the upper and lower alveolar ridges. On the maxilla, pulling the alveolar ridge backward probably also make the philtrum longer, more vertical and the nose appear bigger.
> 
> 
> If you get fucked by this kind of rubber bands, FAGGA could half fix the problem by moving the upper alveolar ridge forward and so allowing the mandible to jut more, but your lower alveolar ridge will not move and will stay forward relative to the mandible, making the chin smaller.


What the fuck are we supposed to do about the lower alveolar ridge?


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