# Mandible: male vs female



## MisterMercedes (May 19, 2021)

One of the most dimorphic bones of the skull, there are many differences between the male and female mandible.

*1) Ramus*

- Length

The male ramus is longer in the descending direction. This is most likely due to the greater bite force that a longer ramus yields (due to longer masseter).

Long vs short descending ramus:









The male ramus is also longer in the ascending direction. This again leads to greater bite force, but also higher cheekbones as the zygomatic process of temporal is positioned higher when the ascending ramus grows higher, and thus the cheekbones themselves are positioned higher. This leads to smaller eye sockets and is a key component of “hunter eyes”.

Long vs short ascending ramus:









Skull view of differing ramus lengths:






- Width

The male ramus is also wider than the female’s. This is partially due to greater posterior remodeling of the ramus, or, in other words, a straighter ramus that makes the jaw look more square. A straighter ramus also yields greater bite force (due to wider masseter).

Straight vs sloped ramus:









Differing ramus slopes:





In addition to greater posterior remodeling, male mandibles have larger coronoid processes. This is due to longer zygomatic processes of temporal or more forward positioned zygomatic bones. This again leads to a wider masseter and thus greater bite force.

Small vs large coronoid process:






Real life examples of males with large vs small coronoid processes:









*2) Gonions*

- Bigonial width

Males have wider bigonions due to greater horizontal remodelling of the ramus during development. This is related to a greater bite force, possibly due to the straighter angulation of the masseter, and also gives the mandible and teeth better protection.

Wide vs narrower bigonion:













-Gonial angulation

The gonion, where the masseter muscle attaches, evertoutwards in the male skull, whereas, in the female skull, it is straight or even inverts toward the body of the mandible. Gonial eversion is another trait associated with higher bite force.

Gonial eversion vs inversion:









To avoid the accusation of cherry picking pictures:





Skull view:






*3) Symphysis (Chin)*


The male chin is longer, wider, and more protrusive (due to a longer mandible overall) than the female’s.

Long vs short chin:









Wide vs narrow chin:








Long vs short mandible:









Potential dimorphic aspects of mandible:

Antegonial notch: male dimorphic trait

Posterior ramus flexure: male dimorphic trait

*Sources:*

1) Bite force-









Human mandibular shape is associated with masticatory muscle force - Scientific Reports


Understanding how and to what extent forces applied to the mandible by the masticatory muscles influence its form, is of considerable importance from clinical, anthropological and evolutionary perspectives. This study investigates these questions. Head CT scans of 382 adults were utilized to...




www.nature.com





2) Ramus length-









Age and gender correlation of gonial angle, ramus height and bigonial width in dentate subjects in a dental school in Far North Queensland


This study aimed to determine if mandibular parameters (gonial angle, bigonial width and ramus height) measured from panoramic radiographs, can be used to determine a correlation with an individual’s age and gender in dentate subjects in Far North ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov







https://www.duttondds.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Liu-2010-AngleOrthod-80-97-105.pdf



3) Ramus width-


https://www.duttondds.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Liu-2010-AngleOrthod-80-97-105.pdf





http://www.ijss-sn.com/uploads/2/0/1/5/20153321/ijss_aug_oa05_-_2016.pdf











Mandibular ramus: An indicator for sex determination - A digital radiographic study


The identification of skeletal remains is of paramount importance in medico-legal investigations. The skeletal components most often investigated for gender determination are the pelvis and skull, with the mandible being a practical element to analyze ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov





4) Gonions-









Sex Determination of Human Mandible Using Metrical Parameters


Introduction: Determination of sex from an unknown human bone is an important role in forensic and anthropology field. The mandible is the largest and hardest facial bone, that commonly resist post mortem damage and forms an important source of information ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov













Mandibular ramus flexure and gonial eversion as morphologic indicators of sex - PubMed


Recently, two mandibular traits--ramus flexure and gonial eversion--have come under close scrutiny (Loth & Henneberg 1996, 2000). The present study investigates the reliability of these two traits when each is applied as a single and independent indicator of sex, including the question of repeat …




pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov







https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/47234317.pdf



5) Symphsis-









Sex Determination of Human Mandible Using Metrical Parameters


Introduction: Determination of sex from an unknown human bone is an important role in forensic and anthropology field. The mandible is the largest and hardest facial bone, that commonly resist post mortem damage and forms an important source of information ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov







https://res.mdpi.com/d_attachment/ijerph/ijerph-17-04249/article_deploy/ijerph-17-04249.pdf


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## AscendingHero (May 19, 2021)

*Another High-IQ thread from @MisterMercedes 

Bookmarked

First*


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## randomuser2407 (May 19, 2021)




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## AscendingHero (May 19, 2021)

@MisterMercedes, OP what causes wide, tall, square, projected chins in males?


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## .👽. (May 19, 2021)

good thread, dn rd all but how does this help us?


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## MisterMercedes (May 19, 2021)

AscendingHero said:


> @MisterMercedes, OP what causes wide, tall, square, projected chins in males?


High prenatal androgen exposure mainly, but is also affected by pubertal androgen levels.


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## AscendingHero (May 19, 2021)

MisterMercedes said:


> High prenatal androgen exposure mainly, but is also affected by pubertal androgen levels.


*FUARK

The Pren T trait is sooo brutal, probably the biggest factor in determining a High T slayer or not.*



MisterMercedes said:


> High prenatal androgen exposure mainly, but is also affected by pubertal androgen levels.


How does one tell if they're high pren t or not?

*Also does jaw development, uprighted teeth, palate, etc. have an effect on chin? Like besides hormones are there any other factors that contribute to chin size?*


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## Phillybeard1996 (May 19, 2021)

Would you say a strong robust masculine jaw always will look better than a average jaw in men?


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## MisterMercedes (May 19, 2021)

AscendingHero said:


> *FUARK
> 
> The Pren T trait is sooo brutal, probably the biggest factor in determining a High T slayer or not.*
> 
> ...


High prenatal T faces usually have wide spaced eyes wide noses, wide mouths, long nasal bridges, higher cheekbones, longer philtrums and chins, longer palates, longer mandibles, more protrusive noses, larger frontal bones, etc. Basically very masculine.

Not sure exactly how “upright teeth” and palate affect chin shape, I don’t think there is a significant relationship.

A high occlusal plane will make the entire jaw more downswung and thus the chin might look longer, and vice verse for a low occlusal plane


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## MisterMercedes (May 19, 2021)

Phillybeard1996 said:


> Would you say a strong robust masculine jaw always will look better than a average jaw in men?


No. It depends on other features of the face, particularly the eye spacing and intercanthal and outercanthal distances (PFL).

For example, a wide big onion works on his face because he has a very high outercanthal distance:





Same with Vito Basso:





A narrower bigonion works on O’ Pry because he has a much smaller outer canthal distance:


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## MisterMercedes (May 19, 2021)

MisterMercedes said:


> No. It depends on other features of the face, particularly the eye spacing and intercanthal and outercanthal distances (PFL).
> 
> For example, a wide big onion works on his face because he has a very high outercanthal distance:
> 
> ...


For future reference, a line drawn down from the lateral can thus should fall slightly within the gonion.









In general, “oval faces” or tapered jaws are the most attractive face shape, for both males and females.


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## Phillybeard1996 (May 19, 2021)

MisterMercedes said:


> No. It depends on other features of the face, particularly the eye spacing and intercanthal and outercanthal distances (PFL).
> 
> For example, a wide big onion works on his face because he has a very high outercanthal distance:
> 
> ...


Yea makes sense theres no such thing as a perfect feature that will suit everybody it depends alot on your other features and proportions


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## Phillybeard1996 (May 19, 2021)

MisterMercedes said:


> For future reference, a line drawn down from the lateral can thus should fall slightly within the gonion.
> 
> View attachment 1142271
> View attachment 1142272
> ...


What do you mean when you say a tapered jaw btw? Would johnny depp or jeremy meeks be considered a tapered jaw? Do you mean the cheekbones are wider then the jaw that whats considered a tapered jaw?


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## MisterMercedes (May 19, 2021)

Phillybeard1996 said:


> What do you mean when you say a tapered jaw btw? Would johnny depp or jeremy meeks be considered a tapered jaw? Do you mean the cheekbones are wider then the jaw?


Narrower big onion, medium to slightly narrow chin width, ramus ending around the stomion, proportionate chin length to midface, and lack of gonial eversion.

Usually yields a gonial angle around 118-122, but there are exceptions.

Examples:


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## MisterMercedes (May 19, 2021)

MisterMercedes said:


> Narrower big onion, medium to slightly narrow chin width, ramus ending around the stomion, proportionate chin length to midface, and lack of gonial eversion.
> 
> Usually yields a gonial angle around 118-122, but there are exceptions.
> 
> ...


Depp and Meeks would be considered to have square jaws.


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## MisterMercedes (May 19, 2021)

MisterMercedes said:


> Depp and Meeks would be considered to have square jaws.


I would say tapered/oval jaw with lean face is ideal for males.

Barrett is basically the opposite of that:


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## Phillybeard1996 (May 19, 2021)

MisterMercedes said:


> Narrower big onion, medium to slightly narrow chin width, ramus ending around the stomion, proportionate chin length to midface, and lack of gonial eversion.
> 
> Usually yields a gonial angle around 118-122, but there are exceptions.
> 
> ...


Hmm lol many women said they like guys with square jaws imo I think its a better look for most guys like gives them sex appeal


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## Celexawer (May 19, 2021)

MisterMercedes said:


> Narrower big onion, medium to slightly narrow chin width, ramus ending around the stomion, proportionate chin length to midface, and lack of gonial eversion.
> 
> Usually yields a gonial angle around 118-122, but there are exceptions.
> 
> ...


So these oval faces are considered more attractive than angular square ones??


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## Alexanderr (May 19, 2021)

Legit thread, gonial eversion doesn’t seem like a positive trait to me, usually it just looks off.
Would’ve been a legendary thread if you add the fixes for each of them though.


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## Phillybeard1996 (May 19, 2021)

Alexanderr said:


> Legit thread, gonial eversion doesn’t seem like a positive trait to me, usually it just looks off.
> Would’ve been a legendary thread if you add the fixes for each of them though.


What is gonial eversion?


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## Alexanderr (May 19, 2021)

Phillybeard1996 said:


> What is gonial eversion?


Something he mentioned in the thread, it’s when your bigonial width is wider than your bizygomatic width. Brad Pitt has it.


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## Phillybeard1996 (May 19, 2021)

Alexanderr said:


> Something he mentioned in the thread, it’s when your bigonial width is wider than your bizygomatic width. Brad Pitt has it.
> View attachment 1142346
> View attachment 1142347


Would you say jaw wider than cheekbones is a masculine trait?


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## Alexanderr (May 19, 2021)

Phillybeard1996 said:


> Would you say jaw wider than cheekbones is a masculine trait?


A wide jaw is a masculine trait, like OP mentioned, so I’d say yes but masculine doesn’t always equate to good looking.


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## MisterMercedes (May 19, 2021)

Alexanderr said:


> Something he mentioned in the thread, it’s when your bigonial width is wider than your bizygomatic width. Brad Pitt has it.
> View attachment 1142346
> View attachment 1142347


Gonial eversion usually leads to that, but doesn’t have to.

Gonial eversion is when the gonion (where the masseter attaches) everts from the body of the mandible. This makes the jaw look more angular and is associated with higher bite force.


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## Phillybeard1996 (May 19, 2021)

MisterMercedes said:


> Gonial eversion usually leads to that, but doesn’t have to.
> 
> Gonial eversion is when the gonion (where the masseter attaches) everts from the body of the mandible. This makes the jaw look more angular and is associated with higher bite force.
> 
> View attachment 1142453


Would you say Jeremy meeks has gonial eversion?


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## MisterMercedes (May 19, 2021)

Phillybeard1996 said:


> Would you say Jeremy meeks has gonial eversion?


He has very slight eversion or simply no inversion. Very similar to Nessman.

His square jaw appearance comes mostly from wide bigonion and long ramus.


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## pizza (May 19, 2021)

MisterMercedes said:


> For future reference, a line drawn down from the lateral can thus should fall slightly within the gonion.
> 
> View attachment 1142271
> View attachment 1142272
> ...


Square mogs


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## Agendum (May 20, 2021)

Gonial inversion is fucking cancer......all you can do is get some faggy implants.


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## spark (Jun 1, 2021)

MisterMercedes said:


> One of the most dimorphic bones of the skull, there are many differences between the male and female mandible.
> 
> *1) Ramus*
> 
> ...


Taylor is a class II overbite case


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## 6’1cel (Jun 1, 2021)

MisterMercedes said:


> One of the most dimorphic bones of the skull, there are many differences between the male and female mandible.
> 
> *1) Ramus*
> 
> ...


i swear to god my biteforce is like 200kgs


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## Potentialcel (Jun 2, 2021)

MisterMercedes said:


> For future reference, a line drawn down from the lateral can thus should fall slightly within the gonion.


nope


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## Deleted member 13928 (Jul 20, 2021)

MisterMercedes said:


> High prenatal androgen exposure mainly, but is also affected by pubertal androgen levels.


I have sent you a message please check your inbox🙂
Also, how to determine whether someone is a late bloomer?, Gandy was way less sharp in the early 20s and then he grew into a more well defined face with and strong bone structure in his late 20s, so how to tell whether someone's face is still in the developmental stage even after they have reached the ideal age of having a fully developed face?


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## Deleted member 9072 (Dec 5, 2021)

o pry bigonians are not narrow at all jfl
he literally jaw mogs most people
just lacks any flare
are inward

@volcelfatcel tots
your a o pry fan


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## volcelfatcel (Dec 5, 2021)

brbbrah said:


> o pry bigonians are not narrow at all jfl
> he literally jaw mogs most people
> just lacks any flare
> are inward
> ...


basically
he is just inwards
needs to be lean so it looks good
gandy is inwards as well

he still jawmogs all, idk where the conclusion that he is narrow came from, his actual face is wide as shit


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## Birdcell (Feb 23, 2022)

MisterMercedes said:


> High prenatal T faces usually have wide spaced eyes wide noses, wide mouths, long nasal bridges, higher cheekbones, longer philtrums and chins, longer palates, longer mandibles, more protrusive noses, larger frontal bones, etc. Basically very masculine.
> 
> Not sure exactly how “upright teeth” and palate affect chin shape, I don’t think there is a significant relationship.
> 
> A high occlusal plane will make the entire jaw more downswung and thus the chin might look longer, and vice verse for a low occlusal plane


Fuark I have every besides the chin


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