# Andreishchev does MSE and MSDO at the same time for 3000€



## Pendejo (Jan 10, 2020)

@Dr Shekelberg talked with him , this is what he told me:


> Andreishchev does MSE and MSDO at the same time for ~ 3000€
> 
> You need to be there at the installation ofc, 5-7 days later he will make the first expansion and afters 3 months you should come again to take the devices out.
> 
> ...


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## Deleted member 1862 (Jan 10, 2020)

Good news but this forum is too obsessed w distraction osteogenesis type procedures. Yall know it's far less predictable than traditional jaw surgery right?

It's great in the right cases, definitely not for everyone or even the majority.


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## needsolution (Jan 10, 2020)

Lifefuel if true


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## Retrofaced Subhuman (Jan 10, 2020)

@Dr Shekelberg ask for sarpe and MSDO


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## Deleted member 685 (Jan 10, 2020)

Is this some obscure Russian scientist?


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## Deleted member 3990 (Jan 10, 2020)

Retrofaced Subhuman said:


> @Dr Shekelberg ask for sarpe and MSDO


u wot ?

MSE > DOME > MARPE > SARPE (there are thousand variations, wanted to keep simple)



Gudru said:


> Is this some obscure Russian scientist?


That is your chance buddyboyo

He is installing MSE like any other orthodontist does/can, there is not a real problem there

MSDO may be a problem because this would be a surgery (to install), but he should very well be able to do this

pay 3000€ to a Russian for MSE and MSDO or pay 20 000€ to a jew for only MSE but with the same complications/success






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aut0phobic said:


> Good news but this forum is too obsessed w distraction osteogenesis type procedures. Yall know it's far less predictable than traditional jaw surgery right?
> 
> It's great in the right cases, definitely not for everyone or even the majority.


I dont see any problem with DO for horinzontal width

if you want to fine tune it later on, you could get SFOT, modified Genio, Chinwing, Sidewin and ZSO (or implants/filler)

Chance of uneven expansion is also low


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## Deleted member 685 (Jan 10, 2020)

Dr Shekelberg said:


> u wot ?
> 
> MSE > DOME > MARPE > SARPE (there are thousand variations, wanted to keep simple)
> 
> ...


I mean I'd love to but ain't no way I'm going to Russia for this


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## Deleted member 3990 (Jan 10, 2020)

Gudru said:


> I mean I'd love to but ain't no way I'm going to Russia for this


1 week stay and after 3 months you come again

dont see a problem there, but I am able to speak Russian, so I might think of it in a different way


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## Gosick (Jan 10, 2020)

im getting bimax from his next year hopefully.
ill see if i can revise my midface implant as well during it.


i wish i can communicate with him better cus he doesnt speak english very well.


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## needsolution (Jan 10, 2020)

Im willing to give him all my shekels


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## Lorsss (Jan 10, 2020)

Andreischev is the most blackpilled maxillofacial surgeon on Earth


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## Lorsss (Jan 10, 2020)

Gudru said:


> Is this some obscure Russian scientist?


in the Looksmax archive there is information about him


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## Deleted member 685 (Jan 10, 2020)

Dr Shekelberg said:


> 1 week stay and after 3 months you come again
> 
> dont see a problem there, but I am able to speak Russian, so I might think of it in a different way


I wanna try this, when I'm 18 I can go on my own but it's gonna be hard saving all the money


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## Deleted member 3990 (Jan 10, 2020)

Gosick said:


> im getting bimax from his next year hopefully.
> ill see if i can revise my midface implant as well during it.
> 
> 
> i wish i can communicate with him better cus he doesnt speak english very well.








He does all of these (all LeFort 1's) + ZSO

You guys need to trust my interviewing skills lol, I know what to ask


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## GetThatBread (Jan 10, 2020)

Are surgeries after MSE and MSDO necessary? Or it depends on the person. If you get 12mm expansion on both the upper and lower jaw I think that’s more than enough for life changing results. To get even more of a bang for your buck; use Copes facepuller before the suture heals to push the maxilla forward. So Sagittal and lateral expansion of the maxilla while only having lateral expansion of the mandible. I’m fine with that but for some users you would probably need IMDO

also what’s the recovery time? MSE is too much of a life fuel because you can still go to work and school while ascending. Idk about MSDO tho


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## needsolution (Jan 10, 2020)

Gudru said:


> I wanna try this, when I'm 18 I can go on my own but it's gonna be hard saving all the money


Same here. I must save some of my facial width


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## Deleted member 685 (Jan 10, 2020)

needsolution said:


> Same here. I must save some of my facial width





Dr Shekelberg said:


> View attachment 222951
> 
> He does all of these (all LeFort 1's) + ZSO
> 
> You guys need to trust my interviewing skills lol, I know what to ask



What cosmetic effect will MSDO have on my lower jaw/chin?


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## Gosick (Jan 10, 2020)

Dr Shekelberg said:


> View attachment 222951
> 
> He does all of these (all LeFort 1's) + ZSO
> 
> You guys need to trust my interviewing skills lol, I know what to ask


looks good but zso is overrated af, its legit if you lack lateral projection

i already have good lateral projection, I just need more vertical placement and horizantal projection of the cheekbone.

I think getting a high lf1+bsso and a Custom Chin Implant from would be nice.
I wonder if he can revise my midface implant tho.



have you asked him if he does custom implnats?


Lorsss said:


> Andreischev is the most blackpilled maxillofacial surgeon on Earth


i heard he rejected @KEy21 for bimax since key21's looked "fine"


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## Deleted member 3990 (Jan 10, 2020)

GetThatBread said:


> Are surgeries after MSE and MSDO necessary? Or it depends on the person. If you get 12mm expansion on both the upper and lower jaw I think that’s more than enough for life changing results. To get even more of a bang for your buck; use Copes facepuller before the suture heals to push the maxilla forward. So Sagittal and lateral expansion of the maxilla while only having lateral expansion of the mandible. I’m fine with that but for some users you would probably need IMDO
> 
> also what’s the recovery time? MSE is too much of a life fuel because you can still go to work and school while ascending. Idk about MSDO tho


first fix airways, but more often than not you could combine it with aesthetic gains

surgeries after are not necessary, but imo you should go for width first, then for projection


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## Barbarossa_ (Jan 10, 2020)

Nigga he charges local Russians with the $ but this Jew charges international patients with €
It’s over for jewsurgoencels


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## Deleted member 3990 (Jan 10, 2020)

Gosick said:


> i already have good lateral projection


dont you have implants lol ?

lateral width alone is worth it for me, and you can do it twice easily, with Z-arch augmentation, fatggrafts for undereyes and CAntho it doesnt look bad at all (combined with LeFort 1 and 2 MSEs before)


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## Deleted member 1862 (Jan 10, 2020)

GetThatBread said:


> Are surgeries after MSE and MSDO necessary? Or it depends on the person. If you get 12mm expansion on both the upper and lower jaw I think that’s more than enough for life changing results. To get even more of a bang for your buck; use Copes facepuller before the suture heals to push the maxilla forward. So Sagittal and lateral expansion of the maxilla while only having lateral expansion of the mandible. I’m fine with that but for some users you would probably need IMDO
> 
> also what’s the recovery time? MSE is too much of a life fuel because you can still go to work and school while ascending. Idk about MSDO tho


depends entirely on the person


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## Deleted member 3990 (Jan 10, 2020)

Gudru said:


> What cosmetic effect will MSDO have on my lower jaw/chin?


approx. 1 cm wider chin

do not underestimate it (but you need wide gonion for it and fitting ramus and miface)

and it also adviceable to combine it with MSE, because your upper alveola may be too broad to even fit on the lower teeth


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## Deleted member 685 (Jan 10, 2020)

Dr Shekelberg said:


> approx. 1 cm wider chin
> 
> do not underestimate it (but you need wide gonion for it and fitting ramus and miface)
> 
> and it also adviceable to combine it with MSE, because your upper alveola may be too broad to even fit on the lower teeth


I don't wanna end up with a weird as chin. 1 cm is alot


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## Gosick (Jan 10, 2020)

Dr Shekelberg said:


> dont you have implants lol ?
> 
> lateral width alone is worth it for me, and you can do it twice easily, with Z-arch augmentation, fatggrafts for undereyes and CAntho it doesnt look bad at all (combined with LeFort 1 and 2 MSEs before)


Yea I have an implant, I got my lateral cheekbone assymtry corrected with them, but the cheek implant is only at 1 cheek and there is no implant in the other one. So I pretty much have one high cheek and one low set one.

Usually after a bimax procedure, you should revise your midface implant since you usually can get away with more projection afterwards to fit your foward grown face.


Barbarossa_ said:


> Nigga he charges local Russians with the $ but this Jew charges international patients with €
> It’s over for jewsurgoencels


how much more tho? lol


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## Golden Glass (Jan 10, 2020)

*Andreishchev is the heir to Eppeley and Sailer, it’s like he’s their love child. Bet he’d do leg lengthening on you if you asked lmao*

Jokes aside, anyone who says distraction is “less predictable” than “one and done” surgery needs to elaborate or their statement is worthless. Since distraction is literally a slow change in bone growth, it can be evaluated, adjusted and modified during treatment. In MSE for example, let’s say mid treatment you start to notice something is going not as expected, the treatment can be modified to address this. Meanwhile if you get SARPE, and the same thing happens, well you will only be able to tell after surgery and all the movement has happened, so you are left worse off in that respect. 

*Regarding Andreishchev, there is something a bit weird about all this.* Anyone who wants to see him should confirm he’s knowledgeable AND experienced in MSE AND MSDO. *Based on the OP, it literally just sounds like he’s the type of guy who would do a Lefort III for 10,000 Euros if asked.* I would actually test this out try to establish how much of a psychopath he is by having two different people emailing him to ask whether he’d do A. Lefort III or B. Orbital Box Osteotomy, and for how much. If he gives some crazy low number and doesn’t mention risks in the email, and doesn’t mention how he’d likely need a neurosurgeon present just in case, since the brain is exposed, then he’s a maniac.

*One sign he seems careless is the fact he says he’ll install MSW on you then you just come back 3 months later.* You should be frequently being checked on during MSE to make sure you’re expanding correctly (with Ronald Ead for example, he had started to expand asymmetrically—only one side of his maxilla was growing, in like the last phase of expansion).


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## Deleted member 3990 (Jan 10, 2020)

Gudru said:


> I don't wanna end up with a weird as chin. 1 cm is alot


I understand and this may be a legit concern

you decide hjow much you want, just stop expanding when it is enough lol

What does the surgeon want to do against it ?


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## Deleted member 2486 (Jan 10, 2020)

Gosick said:


> you should revise your midface implant


@SurgerySoon


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## Deleted member 685 (Jan 10, 2020)

Dr Shekelberg said:


> I understand and this may be a legit concern
> 
> you decide hjow much you want, just stop expanding when it is enough lol
> 
> What does the surgeon want to do against it ?


No idea, I don't even know if I'll ever be able to get it


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## Deleted member 3990 (Jan 10, 2020)

Gudru said:


> No idea, I don't even know if I'll ever be able to get it


then do MSE alone (and add something else if you want, everyone has an individual case)


Golden Glass said:


> *Andreishchev is the heir to Eppeley and Sailer, it’s like he’s their love child. Bet he’d do leg lengthening on you if you asked lmao*
> 
> Jokes aside, anyone who says distraction is “less predictable” than “one and done” surgery needs to elaborate or their statement is worthless. Since distraction is literally a slow change in bone growth, it can be evaluated, adjusted and modified during treatment. In MSE for example, let’s say mid treatment you start to notice something is going not as expected, the treatment can be modified to address this. Meanwhile if you get SARPE, and the same thing happens, well you will only be able to tell after surgery and all the movement has happened, so you are left worse off in that respect.
> 
> ...


No worries

I asked him if he does perform LeFort 3

He said yes

I sent him a CT and pic of me and asked if he could do one on me, he said no, rather go for bimax (which I am rn)

He also said that I need orthodontist/dentist as supervisor because he knows I am a foreigner and that I will not visit him every week

He is not careless, he is very limited with his English skills so he wants to keep it simple (I understand, Russian is fkn hard lol so logically he will do hard with English because it is so different)

And about experience, MSE shouldnt be that hard (and he sounded he was familiar with it), when I mentioned MSE in combination with MSDO, he said "That is new and sounds dramatic, but actually it doesnt sound bad at all; He also knew what I was talking about when I just said MSDO (the abbreviation), even if he isnt experienced, I would do it

He probably does LeForts on a daily, he will get this (nearly) vertical and straight cut down the chin working


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## Golden Glass (Jan 10, 2020)

If you don’t want your chin broadened And just want to make sure your lower arch is wide enough in accordance to your upper after having expansion with MSE, just get a hyrax or trombone expander for your lower arch.


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## Deleted member 1862 (Jan 10, 2020)

Gosick said:


> looks good but zso is overrated af, its legit if you lack lateral projection
> 
> i already have good lateral projection, I just need more vertical placement and horizantal projection of the cheekbone.


zso is never gonna provide the results people here want, the cut is too low & doesn't even move the segment requied for high cheekbones.


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## Gosick (Jan 10, 2020)

aut0phobic said:


> zso is never gonna provide the results people here want, the cut is too low & doesn't even move the segment requied for high cheekbones.


agreed

I think the best option would be a Custom Infraorbital Malar Implant thats WELL Designed, and uses mephor or PEEK


bone>silicone

zso is good if you already have high set cheekbones


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## Deleted member 1862 (Jan 10, 2020)

Gudru said:


> I don't wanna end up with a weird as chin. 1 cm is alot


soft tissue doesn't change with hard tissue in a 1:1 ratio, especially not in the lower third.


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## Deleted member 3990 (Jan 10, 2020)

aut0phobic said:


> soft tissue doesn't change with hard tissue in a 1:1 ratio, especially not in the lower third.


so the "unpredictable outcomes" do not matter that much


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## Deleted member 1862 (Jan 10, 2020)

Golden Glass said:


> *Jokes aside, anyone who says distraction is “less predictable” than “one and done” surgery needs to elaborate or their statement is worthless. Since distraction is literally a slow change in bone growth, it can be evaluated, adjusted and modified during treatment.* In MSE for example, let’s say mid treatment you start to notice something is going not as expected, the treatment can be modified to address this. Meanwhile if you get SARPE, and the same thing happens, well you will only be able to tell after surgery and all the movement has happened, so you are left worse off in that respect.



You're making the pretty bold assumption that you'll have constant and regular monitoring/ checkups. This is obviously not going to be the case, you're not the surgeon's passion project, he simply won't have the time. Please don't liken it to something like LL, they're not really the same.

I'm not talking about SARPE. I'm talking about bi-max given today's current digital imaging & pre planning technology. MSE doesn't even come close in terms of predictability. SARPE is really not an aesthetic procedure, it should only be done for functional reasons. It can ruin hollow cheeks & cause unwanted fullness. 

MSDO and MSE can definitely produce great results, but a lot of the hype around them on THIS FORUM SPECIFICALLY is due to their decreased invasiveness. It's more conceivable that you'd be able to get this over a bimax & so mental masturbators run wild.


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## Maxillacel (Jan 10, 2020)

*The reason why I dont want to get implants is because it wont fix my sleep apnea or TMJ *


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## Golden Glass (Jan 10, 2020)

aut0phobic said:


> You're making the pretty bold assumption that you'll have constant and regular monitoring/ checkups. This is obviously not going to be the case, you're not the surgeon's passion project, he simply won't have the time. Please don't liken it to something like LL, they're not really the same.


This sounds very uninformed and naive. MSE is very much an orthodontic treatment, so you do get pretty frequent check ups during expansion. I know because of consults Ive had for it.



aut0phobic said:


> I'm not talking about SARPE. I'm talking about bi-max given today's current digital imaging & pre planning technology. MSE doesn't even come close in terms of predictability. SARPE is really not an aesthetic procedure, it should only be done for functional reasons. It can ruin hollow cheeks & cause unwanted fullness.


Complaining about the unpredictability or MSE when compared to something like Bimax (btw you still get unpredictability there) is a moot point, considering how gradual of a process MSE is, you can adjust for any aesthetic concern AS IT DEVELOPS. Your complaint is analogous to thinking its bad that with weightlifting, you can’t 100% predict your aesthetic outcome for 3 years of training. This would be silly because as long as you are monitoring the SLOW process, if you notice you’re over developing your legs and under developing your shoulders, your protocol can be adjusted accordingly.



aut0phobic said:


> MSDO and MSE can definitely produce great results, but a lot of the hype around them on THIS FORUM SPECIFICALLY is due to their decreased invasiveness. It's more conceivable that you'd be able to get this over a bimax & so mental masturbators run wild.



MSDO is actually quite invasive (as is SFOT). MSE is getting hype because it’s demonstrated significant growth and results in adults (and even more drastic results for those still growing—like IPD increase, something previously thought to be unchangeable without invasive surgery), and MSE would be a great base for any adult facial looksmaxing.
It’s also more likely to be covered by insurance, is cheaper than most surgeries as is, and because it’s something very gradual, which is something that provides comfort to people who don’t want to fuck their face up.


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## Deleted member 3990 (Jan 10, 2020)

aut0phobic said:


> MSDO and MSE can definitely produce great results, but a lot of the hype around them on THIS FORUM SPECIFICALLY


This


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## Deleted member 1862 (Jan 10, 2020)

Dr Shekelberg said:


> so the "unpredictable outcomes" do not matter that much


perhaps this is true of MSDO but MSE is concerned with a part of the face which is much more delicate in terms of aesthetics.

When I say 'unpredictable' I'm not referring to the magnitude of the change, I'm referring to how the change looks objectively.


Say two people get 8mm palatal expansion

Person 1 has less soft tissue and thus his ratio is closer to 1:1 resulting in a perceived 8mm of palatal expansion

Person 2 has more soft tissue resulting in a lower ratio, his perceived expansion is 5mm

Does person 1 definitely look better than person 2? No. Because MORE of a movement isn't always better. Soft tissue is inherently unpredictable in terms of how it adheres to change. For example, perhaps Person 1 ended up with fuller cheeks as a result of the expansion and as a result looks worse now.

Person 2's soft tissue may have more taughtness (collagen w/e) resulting in a great result etc etc

TLDR: soft tissue is unpredictable. You only need to observe the range in surgery results to confirm this for yourself


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## Golden Glass (Jan 10, 2020)

aut0phobic said:


> perhaps this is true of MSDO but MSE is concerned with a part of the face which is much more delicate in terms of aesthetics.
> 
> When I say 'unpredictable' I'm not referring to the magnitude of the change, I'm referring to how the change looks objectively.
> 
> ...



1. You now bring up surgical before and afters as proof of soft tissue effecting predictability, This concern of “unpredictability” would also be true of ANY procedure in the midfacial region then, and would also apply to Leforts, yet you previously said due to modern tech, predictability for things like Bimax is great.

2. Your complaint about MSE is still moot. Again, because of the SLOWNESS of the GRADUAL procedure, as long as you’re not blindfolding yourself during the 90+/- days of expansion, ANY aesthetic change can be monitored and treated for accordingly.
Example: You start off wanting 12 mm expansion, but after 9mm you decide you don’t want your nasal or mouth width to expand anymore or you notice you’re losing cheek hollows (would be odd considering MSE also seems to expand your Bizygomatic width). If you have any of those concerns then You just stop expanding there.


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## Deleted member 3990 (Jan 10, 2020)

aut0phobic said:


> perhaps this is true of MSDO but MSE is concerned with a part of the face which is much more delicate in terms of aesthetics.
> 
> When I say 'unpredictable' I'm not referring to the magnitude of the change, I'm referring to how the change looks objectively.
> 
> ...


That is why we do not chew everything for the members here

for me it is set, because I dont care about hollow cheeks and I like wide chin a lot, even if it wouldnt fit me

I am obsessed with width lol


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## Deleted member 1862 (Jan 10, 2020)

Golden Glass said:


> 1. You now bring up surgical before and afters as proof of soft tissue effecting predictability, This concern of “unpredictability” would also be true of ANY procedure in the midfacial region then, and would also apply to Leforts, yet you previously said due to modern tech, predictability for things like Bimax is great.


A good point however I said:



aut0phobic said:


> I'm talking about bi-max given today's current digital imaging & pre planning technology. MSE doesn't even come close in terms of predictability.



JS is more predictable, not perfect.

Also, you surely must see that the mechanical movements being performed under DO are objectively just much more crude than those done as part of jaw surgery? It's just intuitive. You can look up MSE results as much as you like, they're not exactly miracles (though I concede the same can be said for JS)



Golden Glass said:


> 2. Your complaint about MSE is still moot. Again, because of the SLOWNESS of the GRADUAL procedure, as long as you’re not blindfolding yourself during the 90+/- days of expansion, ANY aesthetic change can be monitored and treated for accordingly.
> Example: You start off wanting 12 mm expansion, but after 9mm you decide you don’t want your nasal or mouth width to expand anymore or you notice you’re losing cheek hollows (would be odd considering MSE also seems to expand your Bizygomatic width). If you have any of those concerns then You just stop expanding there.



how does one predict that they will lose their hollow cheeks after a few more days? 

btw there's a 3d image of pressure gradients & pivot points for SARPE, MSE etc & it's pretty apparent that changes to the malar complex are small


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## GetThatBread (Jan 10, 2020)

Dr Shekelberg said:


> approx. 1 cm wider chin
> 
> do not underestimate it (but you need wide gonion for it and fitting ramus and miface)
> 
> and it also adviceable to combine it with MSE, because your upper alveola may be too broad to even fit on the lower teeth


It only widens the chin? What about the lower third region? I was expecting if you forego MSE+MSDO at the same time it’ll dramatically increase your FWHR


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## Darkstrand (Jan 10, 2020)

aut0phobic said:


> A good point however I said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is there anything you could do to increase changes at malar complex


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## Deleted member 3990 (Jan 10, 2020)

GetThatBread said:


> It only widens the chin? What about the lower third region? I was expecting if you forego MSE+MSDO at the same time it’ll dramatically increase your FWHR


I certainly know that MSDO will do nothing for your fwhr (maybe tilting of condylars has an effect)

Fwhr gain thru MSE is still individual

Maybe, maybe not (but due to expansion of zygos you might get an increase)


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## Golden Glass (Jan 10, 2020)

aut0phobic said:


> Also, you surely must see that the mechanical movements being performed under DO are objectively just much more crude than those done as part of jaw surgery? It's just intuitive. You can look up MSE results as much as you like, they're not exactly miracles (though I concede the same can be said for JS)
> 
> how does one predict that they will lose their hollow cheeks after a few more days?


1. I never claimed MSE to provide miracles (though IPD increase for IPDcels is a miracle lmao), I’ve always stated it’s the best possible base for facial looksmaxing, I have yet to see a reason why this statement is wrong.

2. If you were to start losing cheek hollows, you stop expansion right away (again unlikely due to zygoma width increase) or you can even reverse a bit of expansion (due to there not being true bone consolidation yet).




aut0phobic said:


> btw there's a 3d image of pressure gradients & pivot points for SARPE, MSE etc & it's pretty apparent that changes to the malar complex are small


1. I’m not a SARPE advocate and it’s an incredibly “local” procedure compared to MSE.

2. I’ve seen those same 3D image complexes of MSE and also seen physical before and afters in similar angles. Changes in malar complex are not small, at least, not always:


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## Deleted member 1862 (Jan 10, 2020)

Golden Glass said:


> View attachment 223027
> 
> View attachment 223025


is this a B&A of purely MSE? I see this guy alot


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## Darkstrand (Jan 10, 2020)

aut0phobic said:


> is this a B&A of purely MSE? I see this guy alot


B&A?


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## Deleted member 1862 (Jan 10, 2020)

Darkstrand said:


> B&A?


before & after


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## Deleted member 4054 (Jan 10, 2020)

I like his before and afters and am not intending to demean him specifically, but it IS funny to me that so many "blackpilled" surgeons like Andreishchev or Brusco are themselves candidates for surgery but clearly have no desire to have the procedures they regularly perform on others done to themselves.

Another example of this is Dr Sinn's son


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## Golden Glass (Jan 10, 2020)

AlexChase89 said:


> I like his before and afters and am not intending to demean him specifically, but it IS funny to me that so many "blackpilled" surgeons like Andreishchev look like shit themselves and clearly have no desire to have the procedures they regularly perform on others done to themselves.


I’ve always thought of how hilarious it would be if there was a surgeon with Eppley status who was looksmaxed af. Imagine how much press he’d get, headlines like “Handsome Frankenstein devotes himself to making other people beautiful”


AlexChase89 said:


> I like his before and afters and am not intending to demean him specifically, but it IS funny to me that so many "blackpilled" surgeons like Andreishchev or Brusco are themselves candidates for surgery but clearly have no desire to have the procedures they regularly perform on others done to themselves.
> 
> Another example of this is Dr Sinn's son


Who is Dr Sinn’s son?


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## Deleted member 4054 (Jan 10, 2020)

removed cuz I don't want to make fun of anyone's looks


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## Deleted member 1862 (Jan 10, 2020)

AlexChase89 said:


> I like his before and afters and am not intending to demean him specifically, but it IS funny to me that so many "blackpilled" surgeons like Andreishchev or Brusco are themselves candidates for surgery but clearly have no desire to have the procedures they regularly perform on others done to themselves.
> 
> Another example of this is Dr Sinn's son


you really think giga turbomanlet 200iq chadeus maximus Douglas Sinn gives a fuck?


AlexChase89 said:


> He's an assistant in Sinn's office, not a surgeon himself. I meant it's funny how Sinn didn't perform any of these procedures on his son. This is him. Again, not making fun of the guy but if his dad's midface osteotomies were really as safe as he claims, well, I'll let you guys fill in the rest.
> View attachment 223072


bro leave him alone the dude's nice, all his staff are actually


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## Deleted member 4054 (Jan 10, 2020)

aut0phobic said:


> you really think giga turbomanlet 200iq chadeus maximus Douglas Sinn gives a fuck?
> 
> bro leave him alone the dude's nice, all his staff are actually



I don't think they care, which is my point. The people performing these surgeries aren't 1/100th as obsessed with their looks as the people getting them. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle


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## Deleted member 1862 (Jan 10, 2020)

AlexChase89 said:


> I don't think they care, which is my point. The people performing these surgeries aren't 1/100th as obsessed with their looks as the people getting them


yh you right, he clearly makes a killing too


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## Golden Glass (Jan 10, 2020)

AlexChase89 said:


> removed cuz I don't want to make fun of anyone's looks


DamnI didn't see it, can you PM? just curious.


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## GetThatBread (Jan 10, 2020)

Dr Shekelberg said:


> I certainly know that MSDO will do nothing for your fwhr (maybe tilting of condylars has an effect)
> 
> Fwhr gain thru MSE is still individual
> 
> Maybe, maybe not (but due to expansion of zygos you might get an increase)


That’s because it only affects your lower jaw, but wouldn’t your entire face look wider in general if the upper and lower jaw increased laterally >10mm?


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## Deleted member 3990 (Jan 10, 2020)

GetThatBread said:


> That’s because it only affects your lower jaw, but wouldn’t your entire face look wider in general if the upper and lower jaw increased laterally >10mm?


MSDO has no (direct) influence on the gonion

only chin width and the dimensions which make it fitting


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## OOGABOOGA (Jan 10, 2020)

This is insane. My plan for jaw recession is this: mse, msdo, fp with braces, high lefort 1 with malar implants, bsso, genio or wraparound

in the us that’d cost me 70k or so

but if I go to andreshiev and then defranq I can get it all for like 25-30k

let’s go baby


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## OldRooster (Jan 10, 2020)

aut0phobic said:


> Good news but this forum is too obsessed w distraction osteogenesis type procedures. Yall know it's far less predictable than traditional jaw surgery right?
> 
> It's great in the right cases, definitely not for everyone or even the majority.


Imo mse is distraction osteogenesis


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## Deleted member 1862 (Jan 10, 2020)

OldRooster said:


> Imo mse is distraction osteogenesis


thats the point


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## OldRooster (Jan 10, 2020)

aut0phobic said:


> thats the point


Ok i misread your point


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## Deleted member 3990 (Jan 11, 2020)

bump


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## Retrofaced Subhuman (Jan 11, 2020)

Gudru said:


> I don't wanna end up with a weird as chin. 1 cm is alot


Wide chin halo is insane buddy boyo


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## Retrofaced Subhuman (Jan 12, 2020)




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## freeone12 (Jan 12, 2020)

Watched his instagram for last 30minutes, how much he charges for consultation?, btw I must admit he is doing excelent job for girls when it comes to silicon boobs


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## PubertyMaxxer (Jan 12, 2020)

OOGABOOGA said:


> This is insane. My plan for jaw recession is this: mse, msdo, fp with braces, high lefort 1 with malar implants, bsso, genio or wraparound
> 
> in the us that’d cost me 70k or so
> 
> ...


Good plan tbh


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## Solo (Jan 16, 2020)

Is this mse?the placement of the screw seems different than ronaldead mse, however it seems also screwed to the bone

Could this device also be combined with facemask/facepull?


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## Deleted member 685 (Jan 20, 2020)

OK, I'm going there one day


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## Golden Glass (Jan 20, 2020)

Solo said:


> Is this mse?the placement of the screw seems different than ronaldead mse, however it seems also screwed to the bone
> 
> Could this device also be combined with facemask/facepull?



Not MSE. MSE provides more skeletal growth due to better design as well as location of the palate where it is installed. Andreischev seems high IQ enough to install actual MSE if you illuminate him on it and it’s benefits.




Gudru said:


> OK, I'm going there one day


He seems like the type of person who would work on you, unlike the ortho you saw.


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## Deleted member 685 (Jan 20, 2020)

Golden Glass said:


> Not MSE. MSE provides more skeletal growth due to better design as well as location of the palate where it is installed. Andreischev seems high IQ enough to install actual MSE if you illuminate him on it and it’s benefits.
> 
> 
> 
> He seems like the type of person who would work on you, unlike the ortho you saw.


Yeah I feel like that too honestly. I'm moneymaxxing now. Fuck looksmaxxing, that can happen once I have all the money later


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## Golden Glass (Jan 20, 2020)

Gudru said:


> Yeah I feel like that too honestly. I'm moneymaxxing now. Fuck looksmaxxing, that can happen once I have all the money later


This is a good mentality to have. Better to save/suffer now and have higher quality outcomes further down the road.


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## OCDMaxxing (Mar 5, 2020)

Does he do facemasks?


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## mido the slayer (Mar 5, 2020)

MSE for upper maxillary while mSDO for lower maxillary bones? Correct me if I’m wrong 

I think MSDO widen the lower third


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## 6ft4 (Mar 10, 2020)

DeFrancq uses something called a "smile distractor"
Is this any different from MSE?


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## BackFromTheMogging (Mar 11, 2020)

Golden Glass said:


> If you don’t want your chin broadened And just want to make sure your lower arch is wide enough in accordance to your upper after having expansion with MSE, just get a hyrax or trombone expander for your lower arch.


Wait would a device similar to hyrax (like mse typa shit) expand the lower arch ? Even if there arent sutures ? Or did I misunderstood


Golden Glass said:


> 1. I never claimed MSE to provide miracles (though IPD increase for IPDcels is a miracle lmao), I’ve always stated it’s the best possible base for facial looksmaxing, I have yet to see a reason why this statement is wrong.
> 
> 2. If you were to start losing cheek hollows, you stop expansion right away (again unlikely due to zygoma width increase) or you can even reverse a bit of expansion (due to there not being true bone consolidation yet).
> 
> ...


I really feel like this dudes central tilt changed. Or idk what happened to his eyes but they look more hunter eye-ish


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## NarrowJaw (Mar 11, 2020)

mido the slayer said:


> MSE for upper maxillary while mSDO for lower maxillary bones? Correct me if I’m wrong
> 
> I think MSDO widen the lower third



MSE widens the maxilla, MSDO widens the mandible


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## PubertyMaxxer (Mar 11, 2020)

6ft4 said:


> DeFrancq uses something called a "smile distractor"
> Is this any different from MSE?
> 
> View attachment 303051
> ...


Smile Distractor is way better than MSE basically


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## kota (Mar 11, 2020)

6ft4 said:


> DeFrancq uses something called a "smile distractor"
> Is this any different from MSE?
> 
> View attachment 303051
> ...


It's just the distractor he uses with SARPE. It is different from MSE because there is surgery involved. 

SARPE includes a horizontal cut above the lower maxilla, so there wouldn't be any change above that line. Unlike MSE where no cuts are made and the whole midface expands.


PubertyMaxxer said:


> Smile Distractor is way better than MSE basically
> View attachment 303560


That is most likely not only the result of 'Smile distractor' / SARPE, but also some kind of jaw advancement and/or genio.


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## Deleted member 4887 (Mar 11, 2020)

Could you get MSDO and then if the lower palate becomes wider than the upper Just make the upper palate wider without changing the bone?
I need a wider jaw and to fix my lower palate crowding but. Don’t want to make maxilla wider than it already is

I’m too low IQ to figure this out


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## Rurouni (Apr 2, 2020)

dohbeep said:


> Could you get MSDO and then if the lower palate becomes wider than the upper Just make the upper palate wider without changing the bone?
> I need a wider jaw and to fix my lower palate crowding but. Don’t want to make maxilla wider than it already is
> 
> I’m too low IQ to figure this out



SARPE should bring minimal maxillary width gains, in theory a lot less than MSE.
MSE keeps the harmony tho - since it influences the whole maxilla, your cheekbones will also be affected by it (albeit to a lesser degree than the palate because they are more distanced to the point of impact). If you only expand your palate via SARPE and your zygomatic width stays the same, you may fuck up the possibility of hollow cheeks for instance (there is less of a valley the skin has to stretch over).


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## Deleted member 4887 (Apr 2, 2020)

Rurouni said:


> SARPE should bring minimal maxillary width gains, in theory a lot less than MSE.
> MSE keeps the harmony tho - since it influences the whole maxilla, your cheekbones will also be affected by it (albeit to a lesser degree than the palate because they are more distanced to the point of impact). If you only expand your palate via SARPE and your zygomatic width stays the same, you may fuck up the possibility of hollow cheeks for instance (there is less of a valley the skin has to stretch over).


Hmmm not really a solution for me then because I do have crowding in my bottom jaw but the upper palate is already quite wide and my IPD is 60.5mm so MSE is out of the question. Gues I’ll have to look for other methods to widen chin


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## Xander578 (Apr 2, 2020)

PubertyMaxxer said:


> Smile Distractor is way better than MSE basically
> View attachment 303560


No it's not, that is def not the result of a smile distractor alone as a smile distractor requires sarpe meaning u won't have any midface expansion at all just it's namesake: a wider smile.


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## curryslayerordeath (Apr 2, 2020)

Xander578 said:


> No it's not, that is def not the result of a smile distractor alone as a smile distractor requires sarpe meaning u won't have any midface expansion at all just it's namesake: a wider smile.


Lol it’s a frauded B/A too as for the frontal shot, the patient is smiling in the after (lifting the mouth and creating the look of a shorter/wider face).


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## Rurouni (Apr 2, 2020)

dohbeep said:


> Hmmm not really a solution for me then because I do have crowding in my bottom jaw but the upper palate is already quite wide and my IPD is 60.5mm so MSE is out of the question. Gues I’ll have to look for other methods to widen chin



if you only need mandible treatment you can get MSDO. it will transversally expand your chin. if your intermolar distance of your lower jaw already matches the one of your upper, just get something like invisalign, it should be able to fix minor crowding


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