# Is jutting legit for CCW rotation or not?



## antiantifa (Feb 10, 2021)

@Copemaxxing keep messaging me with his profile, he has most CCW rotated profile I've ever seen. He also has some form of bruxism(probably jutting). 

Is jutting now legit for CCW rotation or not? 

@betamanlet 

Wake the fuck up, faggot and answer this question, you kept posting years ago about jutting and shit, what is ur personal results with this shit?


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## antiantifa (Feb 10, 2021)

Where are results, Eddie?

@betamanlet


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## antiantifa (Feb 10, 2021)

@betamanlet wake up now


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## antiantifa (Feb 10, 2021)




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## Soalian (Feb 10, 2021)

With jutting you're simply moving your jaw forward, not rotating it counterclockwise?


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## antiantifa (Feb 10, 2021)

Soalian said:


> With jutting you're simply moving your jaw forward, not rotating it counterclockwise?


The muscle that pulls your mandible forward also pulls your upper maxilla backward. 







This is betamanlet's pic. Imagine there is a pull on the top of maxilla backward.


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## Deleted member 9355 (Feb 10, 2021)

hold on is all this about a surgery or not


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## spark (Feb 10, 2021)




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## Soalian (Feb 10, 2021)

antiantifa said:


> The muscle that pulls your mandible forward also pulls your upper maxilla backward.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes I see, thanks.

If it's legit why not jutmaxx all the time, costs nothing, only problem is it may be be hard to talk without looking like an autist, and of course not overdoing it.


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## antiantifa (Feb 10, 2021)

Soalian said:


> Yes I see, thanks.
> 
> If it's legit why not jutmaxx all the time, costs nothing, only problem is it may be be hard to talk without looking like an autist, and of course not overdoing it.








Idk, that's why I made this thread. @betamanlet is jutting now for months at least, he has to report something. He reported 3mm less overjet or some shit like that.


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## Soalian (Feb 10, 2021)

antiantifa said:


>



Is it a morph?


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## antiantifa (Feb 10, 2021)

Soalian said:


> Is it a morph?


No, those are two "different" Chinese XD.
Probably genetic clones tbh made my the CCP.


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## Soalian (Feb 10, 2021)

antiantifa said:


> Idk, that's why I made this thread. @betamanlet is jutting now for months at least, he has to report something. He reported 3mm less overjet or some shit like that.


I think I've been doing it kind of unconsciously for some time now tbh.


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## Soalian (Feb 10, 2021)

antiantifa said:


> No, those are two "different" Chinese XD.
> Probably genetic clones tbh made my the CCP.


Lol ok I thought there were two separate pictures at first glance.


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## antiantifa (Feb 10, 2021)

Soalian said:


> I think I've been doing it kind of unconsciously for some time now tbh.


I've noticed even during sleep I have some form of bruxism which prevent my face from going downward. Maybe it's normal? Maybe jutting more forward instead of upward very important for jaw development.

What are your results?


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## Soalian (Feb 10, 2021)

antiantifa said:


> I've noticed even during sleep I have some form of bruxism which prevent my face from going downward. Maybe it's normal? Maybe jutting more forward instead of upward very important for jaw development.
> 
> What are your results?


I don't really keep track of small facial changes on a daily basis, it's highly subjective tbh.

But I've got Bimax/CCW slated for next April, but surgeon explained to me he will only perform five degree CCW on top of Bimax.

I asked him about possibly bumping it up to ten degrees, but he said it won't be possible because of the risk of too much impaction along the way.

So the CCW rotation will be very minor I guess.


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## antiantifa (Feb 10, 2021)

Soalian said:


> I don't really keep track of small facial changes on a daily basis, it's highly subjective tbh.
> 
> But I've got Bimax/CCW slated for next April, but surgeon explained to me he will only perform five degree CCW on top of Bimax.
> 
> ...


5 degrees still is a lot, more than enough for me to get a fully a straight nose.


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## betamanlet (Feb 10, 2021)

Thanks for reminding me of this. I can't remember exactly why I stopped doing this, there might have been unfavorable changes in occlusion or TMJ functioning. In any case, I moved on to other experiments soon after posting that. As I said in some of those older posts, this hypothesis has less to do with CCW rotation and more with remodeling of the maxillary alveolus.


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## Mongrelcel (Feb 10, 2021)

antiantifa said:


>


so brutal

they robbed him of having a future


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## antiantifa (Feb 10, 2021)

betamanlet said:


> Thanks for reminding me of this. I can't remember exactly why I stopped doing this, there might have been unfavorable changes in occlusion or TMJ functioning. In any case, I moved on to other experiments soon after posting that. As I said in some of those older posts, this hypothesis has less to do with CCW rotation and more with remodeling of the maxillary alveolus.


I had TMJ from it as well, but it went away when I stopped, what if you just have to jut occasionally to make sure your TMJ has time to follow the changes?

Also I haven't met a single forward grown CCW maxilla rotated person who doesn't jut subconsciously, I usually ask to look at their teeth and there's obvious dental wear everywhere.

My ex's mother mogged me to death with her jaw, she used to have heavy bruxism at night where she'd just jut forward.

How long did you jut for? Did you make objective measurements? How can your memory be so bad btw you only said you were doing it just a few months ago.

@Copemaxxing has bruxism and has gigachad jaw.


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## Deleted member 6873 (Feb 10, 2021)

Soalian said:


> With jutting you're simply moving your jaw forward, not rotating it counterclockwise?


Fellow peter steele pilled chad


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## antiantifa (Feb 10, 2021)

@retard 

Faggot 2.0, u kept ur teeth clenched for years, what happened?


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## betamanlet (Feb 10, 2021)

antiantifa said:


> I had TMJ from it as well, but it went away when I stopped, what if you just have to jut occasionally to make sure your TMJ has time to follow the changes?


It's possible. I could give it another go. Lately my main focus has been on strong lip suction due to its ability to guide the tongue and the neck into their proper places without me having to think about them at all. Since the jut doesn't seem to contradict the lip suction in any form, it'd be easy to incorporate it into the technique.



antiantifa said:


> My ex's mother mogged me to death with her jaw, she used to have heavy bruxism at night where she'd just jut forward.


So they wouldn't simply clench the molars together, but instead specifically jut incisors against the incisors?



antiantifa said:


> How long did you jut for? Did you make objective measurements?


Somewhere around 2-4 weeks. I went by mirror and by how much of the upper incisors I could palpate with the tongue from behind my lower incisors.



antiantifa said:


> How can your memory be so bad btw you only said you were doing it just a few months ago.


Still living in 2020 eh? It's almost 1½ years according to the timestamp.


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## antiantifa (Feb 10, 2021)

betamanlet said:


> It's possible. I could give it another go. Lately my main focus has been on strong lip suction due to its ability to guide the tongue and the neck into their proper places without me having to think about them at all. Since the jut doesn't seem to contradict the lip suction in any form, it'd be easy to incorporate it into the technique.
> 
> 
> So they wouldn't simply clench the molars together, but instead specifically jut incisors against the incisors?
> ...


Damn I forget that it's 2021. 

Yes, she'd just just mostly with her front teeth. I know this because she said she had dental attrition, when she showed me her front teeth were basically very straightly stacked on top of each-other. Her palate was nicely aligned to her frankfurt plane and even at 50 years old she looked really well. 

"It's possible. I could give it another go. Lately my main focus has been on strong lip suction due to its ability to guide the tongue and the neck into their proper places without me having to think about them at all. Since the jut doesn't seem to contradict the lip suction in any form, it'd be easy to incorporate it into the technique."


My only fear is it will cause the face to shorten at the posterior region, did such a thing happen to you?


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## antiantifa (Feb 10, 2021)

betamanlet said:


> It's possible. I could give it another go. Lately my main focus has been on strong lip suction due to its ability to guide the tongue and the neck into their proper places without me having to think about them at all. Since the jut doesn't seem to contradict the lip suction in any form, it'd be easy to incorporate it into the technique.
> 
> 
> So they wouldn't simply clench the molars together, but instead specifically jut incisors against the incisors?
> ...


Also look at this:



Soma in Action – Wholistic Dentistry





Case Studies – Wholistic Dentistry


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## betamanlet (Feb 10, 2021)

antiantifa said:


> My only fear is it will cause the face to shorten at the posterior region, did such a thing happen to you?


What exactly do you mean by posterior region, and why would it shorten? If you're pointing to the height of the lower third, the only way I can see that happening would be by clenching with the molars or pushing the posterior palate upwards with the tongue. 

Here is an interesting superimposition of cephalometric tracings between two individuals with good and bad growth respectively. The maxillary difference mostly exists on a sagittal plane, which does give some credence to the jutting hypothesis.


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## Copemaxxing (Feb 10, 2021)

antiantifa said:


> I had TMJ from it as well, but it went away when I stopped, what if you just have to jut occasionally to make sure your TMJ has time to follow the changes?
> 
> Also I haven't met a single forward grown CCW maxilla rotated person who doesn't jut subconsciously, I usually ask to look at their teeth and there's obvious dental wear everywhere.
> 
> ...


I am jutting 24/7 Cause it looks weird if I dont


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## antiantifa (Feb 10, 2021)

@betamanlet

In the gif it mostly looks like the movement is the same as that produced from pterygoids and masseter, not temporalis. 

Also maybe it only seems like it, but the incisors in the good profile are deeper-set than in the bad profile(more jammed up).


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## antiantifa (Feb 10, 2021)

Copemaxxing said:


> I am jutting 24/7 Cause it looks weird if I dont


Man you have to explain what you do at night with your teeth. You have some form of bruxism that gave you too much CCW rotation and gave you a giga-chad jaw at the expense of no visible teeth in your smile. 

You have a ridiculously short distance between your incisor and your nose as well.


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## antiantifa (Feb 10, 2021)

betamanlet said:


> What exactly do you mean by posterior region, and why would it shorten? If you're pointing to the height of the lower third, the only way I can see that happening would be by clenching with the molars or pushing the posterior palate upwards with the tongue.
> 
> Here is an interesting superimposition of cephalometric tracings between two individuals with good and bad growth respectively. The maxillary difference mostly exists on a sagittal plane, which does give some credence to the jutting hypothesis.
> 
> View attachment 978319


Of course, the clenching of the molars causing shortening of posterior face is what I am afraid of.


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## betamanlet (Feb 10, 2021)

antiantifa said:


> In the gif it mostly looks like the movement is the same as that produced from pterygoids and masseter, not temporalis.


Yeah, those muscles are responsible for bringing the mandible forward/up


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## betamanlet (Feb 10, 2021)

antiantifa said:


> Of course, the clenching of the molars causing shortening of posterior face is what I am afraid of.


Well do your molars even touch when you are jutting? In my case there is a small gap.


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## Copemaxxing (Feb 10, 2021)

antiantifa said:


> Man you have to explain what you do at night with your teeth. You have some form of bruxism that gave you too much CCW rotation and gave you a giga-chad jaw at the expense of no visible teeth in your smile.
> 
> You have a ridiculously short distance between your incisor and your nose as well.


I have diagnosed short face syndrome (very severe)


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## antiantifa (Feb 10, 2021)

betamanlet said:


> Well do your molars even touch when you are jutting? In my case there is a small gap.


I used to jut sometime ago. Sometimes my front teeth would move so much upward it would be impossible to bite without touching molars. This would obviously come from the teeth getting pushed into their gums.

But I jutted way too hard. I think soft jutting will allow the bone to move more-so than hard-jutting. I have this feeling that the nervous system can "tense" bone in response to too much pressure, which reduces bone re-modelling rate. On the other hand, sometimes I can feel certain parts of my facial bone "relaxing" and becoming more responsive, almost like the bone becomes less dry/more liquid.

This I mostly felt from mewing, which gave me a huge boost in forward growth and slightly improved my maxilla angle. Right now I only need CCW rotation, nothing else. Ideally front face shortening.

But again, I am afraid the shortening will cause sagging skin. I used to chew a lot, my posterior height was decreased because of chewing on molars, this caused my profile to worsen a lot. My whole face also rotated CW(nose became more hooked) with temporalis molar chewing.


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## antiantifa (Feb 10, 2021)

Copemaxxing said:


> I have diagnosed short face syndrome (very severe)


Yes, but what's the cause? Your front teeth are very straight with dental wear, so I supposed you had bruxism.


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## Copemaxxing (Feb 10, 2021)

antiantifa said:


> Yes, but what's the cause? Your front teeth are very straight with dental wear, so I supposed you had bruxism.


i dont know, my mom has short face syndrome too diagnosed, maybe its genes?


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## betamanlet (Feb 10, 2021)

antiantifa said:


> I used to jut sometime ago. Sometimes my front teeth would move so much upward it would be impossible to bite without touching molars. This would obviously come from the teeth getting pushed into their gums.
> 
> But I jutted way too hard. I think soft jutting will allow the bone to move more-so than hard-jutting. I have this feeling that the nervous system can "tense" bone in response to too much pressure, which reduces bone re-modelling rate. On the other hand, sometimes I can feel certain parts of my facial bone "relaxing" and becoming more responsive, almost like the bone becomes less dry/more liquid.
> 
> ...


Yeah the bone definitely responds better to softer consistent forces. I recall reading that it takes just a couple of grams of pressure to move teeth over time, and that even just 50 grams per teeth can be too much force. You probably need to be in the parasympathetic mode too before any serious remodeling is going to take place.

If you think of how the TMJ is a central hinge around which the mandible is rotating, then it makes sense to assume that once the mandible is guided into the proper rotation by jutting, it will take the maxillary teeth along for the ride in a way which will eventually result in a balanced occlusion where the load is evenly distributed across all teeth. So at a point where you no longer can connect incisors without molar contact, perhaps the next logical step is to go for molar contact. Then soon the molars would be pushed up and forward too, and incisor contact could resume, and so on.


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## antiantifa (Feb 10, 2021)

betamanlet said:


> Yeah, those muscles are responsible for bringing the mandible forward/up


"One of the reasons the skeletal open bite is so difficult to treat in the practice of orthodontics is that its formative mechanism has not been elucidated. In view of past clinical reports, it may well be anticipated that the function of the masseter muscle plays some role in the formation of the skeletal open bite. The longitudinal effects on craniofacial growth in growing rhesus mon- keys by denervation of the masseter muscle were ob- served cephalographically. In the neurectomized ani- mals, the anterior facial height, the mandibular plane angle, and the gonial angle increased, together with a shortening of the ramus height. These results showed morphologic characteristic patterns of the skeletal open bite. It is therefore suggested that the inactivation of the masseter muscle produces a backward-rotating man- dibular growth pattern and that its function contributes to the formation of the gonial region."


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## Babushkacatlady (Feb 10, 2021)

antiantifa said:


> My only fear is it will cause the face to shorten at the posterior region, did such a thing happen to you?


Don't clench at the molars, try focusing your bite on the area of the canine to first molar, with light contact.



antiantifa said:


> The muscle that pulls your mandible forward also pulls your upper maxilla backward.


The jutting muscle is the lateral pterygoid, it attaches to the sphenoid, not the upper maxilla.



betamanlet said:


> there might have been unfavorable changes in occlusion or TMJ functioning


You probably got TMJ cause you were jutting only some of the time but others, like when eating, you had your previous occlusion. This dual position stresses the TMJs since they were trying to adapt to that position but kept coming back to the other.


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## antiantifa (Feb 10, 2021)

Babushkacatlady said:


> Don't clench at the molars, try focusing your bite on the area of the canine to first molar, with light contact.
> 
> 
> The jutting muscle is the lateral pterygoid, it attaches to the sphenoid, not the upper maxilla.
> ...


"You probably got TMJ cause you were jutting only some of the time but others, like when eating, you had your previous occlusion. This dual position stresses the TMJs since they were trying to adapt to that position but kept coming back to the other."

Interesting theory. 

And yeah, the pterygoid attach to sphenoid, which is attached to the maxilla. 

What is your personal experience in this matter?


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## Mouthbreath (Feb 10, 2021)

Mongrelcel said:


> so brutal
> 
> they robbed him of having a future


I got the same treatment: retractive orthodontics + extractions

and I have a terribly recessed mandible, brutal


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## Babushkacatlady (Feb 10, 2021)

antiantifa said:


> What is your personal experience in this matter?


Jutting as long as possible for as much as possible fixed my big overjet a few years ago and solved my class 2 and gave me a class 1 bite and skeletal appearance. It did give me TMJ when I was inconsistent but it got better with time. I wish I had good before after pics.


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## antiantifa (Feb 10, 2021)

Babushkacatlady said:


> Jutting as long as possible for as much as possible fixed my big overjet a few years ago and solved my class 2 and gave me a class 1 bite and skeletal appearance. It did give me TMJ when I was inconsistent but it got better with time. I wish I had good before after pics.


Interesting. How did your overall facial appearance change?

What happened to your nose, more humped or less?
What happened to your mandible, more forward or less?
What happened to your ears, CCW or CW rotated?
What happened to your cheeks, thinner or fatter?
Indicator line?
Upper/Lower Inter-molar/Inter-canine distance?
Ramus length?
Also maybe pictures with your eyes removed?
What about tongue posture, what did you do with it? Did you keep it up or as low as possible?

I notice during sleep that my face just wants to bring my molars upwards for some reason, it's annoying because it leads to CW rotation, I notice tension in temporalis during sleep. It's not tension from my consciously.


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## betamanlet (Feb 10, 2021)

antiantifa said:


> "One of the reasons the skeletal open bite is so difficult to treat in the practice of orthodontics is that its formative mechanism has not been elucidated. In view of past clinical reports, it may well be anticipated that the function of the masseter muscle plays some role in the formation of the skeletal open bite. The longitudinal effects on craniofacial growth in growing rhesus mon- keys by denervation of the masseter muscle were ob- served cephalographically. In the neurectomized ani- mals, the anterior facial height, the mandibular plane angle, and the gonial angle increased, together with a shortening of the ramus height. These results showed morphologic characteristic patterns of the skeletal open bite. It is therefore suggested that the inactivation of the masseter muscle produces a backward-rotating man- dibular growth pattern and that its function contributes to the formation of the gonial region."


From what I am aware open bite is the result of tongue thrust, or even resting the tongue in between the front teeth. I'd imagine that denervating the masseters could fuck with tongue posture too, possibly causing it to fall from the roof down towards the front teeth.



Babushkacatlady said:


> You probably got TMJ cause you were jutting only some of the time but others, like when eating, you had your previous occlusion. This dual position stresses the TMJs since they were trying to adapt to that position but kept coming back to the other.


Makes sense.


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## antiantifa (Feb 10, 2021)

betamanlet said:


> From what I am aware open bite is the result of tongue thrust, or even resting the tongue in between the front teeth. I'd imagine that denervating the masseters could fuck with tongue posture too, possibly causing it to fall from the roof down towards the front teeth.
> 
> 
> Makes sense.


How so? The nerves of the tongue are different compared to the nerves of the masseter. And the masseter isn't required to keep the mouth shut.


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## antiantifa (Feb 10, 2021)

Babushkacatlady said:


> Jutting as long as possible for as much as possible fixed my big overjet a few years ago and solved my class 2 and gave me a class 1 bite and skeletal appearance. It did give me TMJ when I was inconsistent but it got better with time. I wish I had good before after pics.


Also who's alt are you?


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## betamanlet (Feb 10, 2021)

antiantifa said:


> How so? The nerves of the tongue are different compared to the nerves of the masseter. And the masseter isn't required to keep the mouth shut.


Now that I think of it, there was something in that article series from Portland's TMJ clinic that relates to the study:










The Portland TMJ Clinic - Chapter 4


Portland Oregon temporomandibular joint Specialist, Dr. Summer specializes in treatment of temporomandibular disorder and Pain Management of the jaw joint




portlandtmjclinic.com


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## Babushkacatlady (Feb 10, 2021)

Interesting. How did your overall facial appearance change?

*I definitely don't have a strong chin (it's neutral) but it is the strongest chin in the family. Other changes are noted below*

What happened to your nose, more humped or less?- *less*
What happened to your mandible, more forward or less?- *more forward*
What happened to your ears, CCW or CW rotated?-* cw*
What happened to your cheeks, thinner or fatter?- *thinner*
Indicator line?-*around 42-43*
Upper/Lower Inter-molar/Inter-canine distance?- *34.5 IMW 31 ICW*
Ramus length?- *much longer, probably helped by chewing too *
Also maybe pictures with your eyes removed?-* would prefer not but may post in the future.*
What about tongue posture, what did you do with it? Did you keep it up or as low as possible?- *up against the palate*

I notice during sleep that my face just wants to bring my molars upwards for some reason, it's annoying because it leads to CW rotation, I notice tension in temporalis during sleep. It's not tension from my consciously. *This probably means you're having issues posturing your mandible, perhaps even posturing it too far back since the temporalis is also responsible for bringing the mandible up and back.*

How so? The nerves of the tongue are different compared to the nerves of the masseter. And the masseter isn't required to keep the mouth shut. *The Trigeminal Nerve branches out and controls both*

Also who's alt are you?* I know whose alt you are, I'll leave you to guess who I am.*


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## betamanlet (Feb 10, 2021)

Babushkacatlady said:


> Interesting. How did your overall facial appearance change?
> 
> *I definitely don't have a strong chin (it's neutral) but it is the strongest chin in the family. Other changes are noted below*
> 
> ...


Fascinating. How old were you during this, and how long did achieving class 1 take overall? Are you still making more progress?


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## Deleted member 8632 (Feb 10, 2021)

I heard it can cause/worsen tmj. Should i do it in the end or not? I have a normal bite and dont want to risk it, also i'm not recessed like in the before pic example in that thread


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## Babushkacatlady (Feb 10, 2021)

betamanlet said:


> Fascinating. How old were you during this, and how long did achieving class 1 take overall? Are you still making more progress?


Was a mouth breather for most of childhood due to big tonsils. Chewed a shit ton from age 16-18 for several hours a day. Did nothing for my class 2 and left me with chipmunk round jaw, but did help my ramus. Stopped doing that and just focused on tongue posture, jutting, lips together, and teeth gently together from 19-20 and fixed the class 2 in about a year. Am 21 now, still making progress, albeit slower. I've never had orthodontics and today I get compliments on "nice teeth" (only mild lower crowding) and "strong features". I'm certain if I had orthodontics, my face would look far far worse. Funny thing is, I still have a bit of a deep bite, and my maxilla is still technically around 10mm too far down and around 5mm too far back.


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## antiantifa (Feb 10, 2021)

BrotherT said:


> I heard it can cause/worsen tmj. Should i do it in the end or not? I have a normal bite and dont want to risk it, also i'm not recessed like in the before pic example in that thread


You miss all of the chances you don't take. Ask yourself this: Do you have anything to lose? Can you mess up your face any more? If you drop 1 PSL now would it make a difference? 



Babushkacatlady said:


> Interesting. How did your overall facial appearance change?
> 
> *I definitely don't have a strong chin (it's neutral) but it is the strongest chin in the family. Other changes are noted below*
> 
> ...


I know who's alt you are from TGW, that's obvious, but who's alt are you from this website . 

Also interesting changes, I'll try lightly just lightly clenching with first molars forward.


betamanlet said:


> Now that I think of it, there was something in that article series from Portland's TMJ clinic that relates to the study:
> 
> View attachment 978710
> 
> ...


Yeah I read this one, I think they copied this article from some Polish or Eastern European clinic that theorized that bruxism is caused by a soft diet and the body resists the soft diet.


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## antiantifa (Feb 10, 2021)

Babushkacatlady said:


> Was a mouth breather for most of childhood due to big tonsils. Chewed a shit ton from age 16-18 for several hours a day. Did nothing for my class 2 and left me with chipmunk round jaw, but did help my ramus. Stopped doing that and just focused on tongue posture, jutting, lips together, and teeth gently together from 19-20 and fixed the class 2 in about a year. Am 21 now, still making progress, albeit slower. I've never had orthodontics and today I get compliments on "nice teeth" (only mild lower crowding) and "strong features". I'm certain if I had orthodontics, my face would look far far worse. Funny thing is, I still have a bit of a deep bite, and my maxilla is still technically around 10mm too far down and around 5mm too far back.


Very interesting experiences, what do you think of my own experience that I posted on TGW about placing the tongue more upwards to create more forward growth leverage. I've been able to successfully keep it there during sleep, which lead to good forward growth, though my ears did rotate CCW and my maxilla didn't rotate much(tiny bit CCW).

It did improve breathing a lot and especially side profile looks.

Only problem is it can cause TMJ because the mandible lightly being pushed backwards against the TMJ joint.


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## Deleted member 8632 (Feb 10, 2021)

antiantifa said:


> You miss all of the chances you don't take. Ask yourself this: Do you have anything to lose? Can you mess up your face any more? If you drop 1 PSL now would it make a difference?
> 
> 
> I know who's alt you are from TGW, that's obvious, but who's alt are you from this website .
> ...


It will make a big difference if i drop down a psl or fuck my perfectly straight teeth. Here is my side profile:










How is my maxilla and mandible? I turned 17 a week ago.


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## Babushkacatlady (Feb 10, 2021)

antiantifa said:


> I know who's alt you are from TGW, that's obvious, but who's alt are you from this website .


No alt from this website, just a lurker lol. 



antiantifa said:


> Very interesting experiences, what do you think of my own experience that I posted on TGW about placing the tongue more upwards to create more forward growth leverage. I've been able to successfully keep it there during sleep, which lead to good forward growth, though my ears did rotate CCW and my maxilla didn't rotate much(tiny bit CCW).
> 
> It did improve breathing a lot and especially side profile looks.
> 
> Only problem is it can cause TMJ because the mandible lightly being pushed backwards against the TMJ joint.


Ahhh ok I think I misread it. I would say if it works go for it. The one thing is that if you're pushing back against the joint you might wind up with condylar resorption (scary stuff).


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## antiantifa (Feb 10, 2021)

BrotherT said:


> It will make a big difference if i drop down a psl or fuck my perfectly straight teeth. Here is my side profile:
> 
> View attachment 978845
> View attachment 978846
> ...


Dunno, seems fine to me to me for 17 years old. I am no expert though. Your ears aren't ante though.


Babushkacatlady said:


> No alt from this website, just a lurker lol.
> 
> 
> Ahhh ok I think I misread it. I would say if it works go for it. The one thing is that if you're pushing back against the joint you might wind up with condylar resorption (scary stuff).
> ...



It did work, but eventually the whole maxilla becomes so stretched out the tongue has no more passive leverage..


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## Deleted member 12218 (Feb 10, 2021)

antiantifa said:


> I had TMJ from it as well, but it went away when I stopped, what if you just have to jut occasionally to make sure your TMJ has time to follow the changes?
> 
> Also I haven't met a single forward grown CCW maxilla rotated person who doesn't jut subconsciously, I usually ask to look at their teeth and there's obvious dental wear everywhere.
> 
> ...


I used to have tmj clicking on both sides but I have been practicing @betamanlets jutting theory and it’s 95% gone. If you look at old photos of mine, my jaw was slightly back which I think was just enough to cause tmd but on my profile you can see my jaw is forward enough now to not cause any problems.


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## antiantifa (Feb 10, 2021)

22Bones said:


> I used to have tmj clicking on both sides but I have been practicing @betamanlets jutting theory and it’s 95% gone. If you look at old photos of mine, my jaw was slightly back which I think was just enough to cause tmd but on my profile you can see my jaw is forward enough now to not cause any problems.


How did you just? Choose one:


Pressure on all teeth.
Mostly pressure on incisors.
Most pressure on front half of palate.
Mostly pressure on first molar.
Mostly pressure on posterior half of palate.
Mostly pressure on third molar.
??? Some other way ???


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## Deleted member 12218 (Feb 10, 2021)

antiantifa said:


> How did you just? Choose one:
> 
> 
> Pressure on all teeth.
> ...


Well it’s been changing a lot because I’m 35 turns in my mse so you could imagine how different my bite is.

The first day I put mainly pressure on the front incisors but my 2 front teeth were really sore the next day so I changed to putting the majority of pressure around the premolars to first molar area with decent pressure on the front teeth.

Because of how tilted my back molars are, I can’t even make contact with them especially with the mse turning.

My strategy was to use only the masseters to push up the premolar area and the ptyersgoids to jut forward on the incisors as a way to push the whole maxilla forward so my mandible can come forward. I also realize sense doing this I can’t underbite as much I could do which could be evidence of my maxilla moving forwards. Hope this makes sense.


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## antiantifa (Feb 10, 2021)

22Bones said:


> Well it’s been changing a lot because I’m 35 turns in my mse so you could imagine how different my bite is.
> 
> The first day I put mainly pressure on the front incisors but my 2 front teeth were really sore the next day so I changed to putting the majority of pressure around the premolars to first molar area with decent pressure on the front teeth.
> 
> ...


Ur the guy who got treatment and messed up his bite with CCW rotation?


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## Deleted member 12218 (Feb 10, 2021)

antiantifa said:


> Ur the guy who got treatment and messed up his bite with CCW rotation?


No I’m still turning my mse. That other guy chewed on falim gum 8 hours a day. Although, I do occasionally chew on a dog toy with my inscisors and pre molars until my teeth get sore.


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## antiantifa (Feb 10, 2021)

22Bones said:


> No I’m still turning my mse. That other guy chewed on falim gum 8 hours a day. Although, I do occasionally chew on a dog toy with my inscisors and pre molars until my teeth get sore.


Okay, thank you for sharing your experience, man.


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## Copemaxxing (Feb 10, 2021)

this guy ccw mogs me


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## EasternRightWinger15 (Feb 10, 2021)

betamanlet said:


> but instead specifically jut incisors against the incisors?


that's gross for me to even think about ot, when I have overbite and considerably larger upper incusors than rest of my teeth


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## Baldingman1998 (Feb 10, 2021)

antiantifa said:


> The muscle that pulls your mandible forward also pulls your upper maxilla backward.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So jutting will make your mandable grow bit maxxila shrink inside face?? According to what you said


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## ovosoundszn (Feb 10, 2021)

Bro this thread makes me feel like im on TGW, which has the most mentally ill userbase ive ever seen. All this bullshit won't get you results. Lmao


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## PYT (Feb 10, 2021)

antiantifa said:


> You miss all of the chances you don't take. Ask yourself this: Do you have anything to lose? Can you mess up your face any more? If you drop 1 PSL now would it make a difference?
> 
> 
> I know who's alt you are from TGW, that's obvious, but who's alt are you from this website .
> ...


Don't underestimate one PSL point. One PSL point from 4 to 3 is life changing. The difference between a chance of a normal life to bullying and ridicule


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## Asetric (Feb 10, 2021)

If you wanna move it lower, why would you push upwards?


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## Lmao (Feb 10, 2021)

betamanlet said:


> Yeah the bone definitely responds better to softer consistent forces. I recall reading that it takes just a couple of grams of pressure to move teeth over time, and that even just 50 grams per teeth can be too much force. You probably need to be in the parasympathetic mode too before any serious remodeling is going to take place.
> 
> If you think of how the TMJ is a central hinge around which the mandible is rotating, then it makes sense to assume that once the mandible is guided into the proper rotation by jutting, it will take the maxillary teeth along for the ride in a way which will eventually result in a balanced occlusion where the load is evenly distributed across all teeth. So at a point where you no longer can connect incisors without molar contact, perhaps the next logical step is to go for molar contact. Then soon the molars would be pushed up and forward too, and incisor contact could resume, and so on.


How would a palatal expander work if the limit if 50 grams. They only do like 1500 grams, and average swallow is 1800 grams.


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## Deleted member 12218 (Feb 10, 2021)

Lmao said:


> How would a palatal expander work if the limit if 50 grams. They only do like 1500 grams, and average swallow is 1800 grams.


*According to my doctor(Dr Bockow):*

Splitting mid palatial suture=900-4500g of force

Moving teeth=10-150g of force

*According to the what I’ve learned channel:*

The average person swallows with 2 pounds of force or 900g, 600 times a day


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## Lmao (Feb 10, 2021)

22Bones said:


> *According to my doctor(Dr Bockow):*
> 
> Splitting mid palatial suture=900-4500g of force
> 
> ...


900 grams of force? that is doable af if you hard mew consistently.


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## Deleted member 12218 (Feb 10, 2021)

Lmao said:


> 900 grams of force? that is doable af if you hard mew consistently.


Yes, but if you have any contact with the teeth, it will just transfer the force into dental tipping.


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## Lmao (Feb 10, 2021)

22Bones said:


> Yes, but if you have any contact with the teeth, it will just transfer the force into dental tipping.


So no contact with the molars right?


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## Deleted member 12218 (Feb 10, 2021)

Lmao said:


> So no contact with the molars right?


Do you want to tip your teeth out?


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## Lmao (Feb 10, 2021)

22Bones said:


> Do you want to tip your teeth out?


yes i do


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## Deleted member 12218 (Feb 10, 2021)

Lmao said:


> yes i do


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## Lmao (Feb 10, 2021)

22Bones said:


> View attachment 979483


lmao


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## Deleted member 12218 (Feb 10, 2021)

Lmao said:


> lmao


22Bones


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## Lmao (Feb 10, 2021)

22Bones said:


> Do you want to tip your teeth out?


How much force on teeth would cause them to tip? If i press only on roof, will teeth still tip because tongue still touches molars


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## Deleted member 12218 (Feb 10, 2021)

Lmao said:


> How much force on teeth would cause them to tip? If i press only on roof, will teeth still tip because tongue still touches molars


Yep, that’s what happened to my teeth. I haven’t seen anybody with a worse case than me. It’s what happens when somebody learns to mew with a narrow palate but their tongue doesn’t fit.


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## Lmao (Feb 11, 2021)

22Bones said:


> Yep, that’s what happened to my teeth. I haven’t seen anybody with a worse case than me. It’s what happens when somebody learns to mew with a narrow palate but their tongue doesn’t fit.


My IMW is like 42mm so its not narrow, but tongue still touches molars although its not with much force. Will it fuck up my bite?


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## Deleted member 12218 (Feb 11, 2021)

Lmao said:


> My IMW is like 42mm so its not narrow, but tongue still touches molars although its not with much force. Will it fuck up my bite?


Might not if you keep your teeth in contact.


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## Lmao (Feb 11, 2021)

22Bones said:


> Might not if you keep your teeth in contact.


Could teeth tipping be avoided just by keeping teeth in contact?


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## Deleted member 12218 (Feb 11, 2021)

Lmao said:


> Could teeth tipping be avoided just by keeping teeth in contact?


Theoretically it would make sense. You could push on the top molars with your tongue but the bottom molars could be able to pull them back in if they’re touching. Didn’t work for me because I’m pretty sure I have my teeth apart during the night


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## Lmao (Feb 11, 2021)

22Bones said:


> Theoretically it would make sense. You could push on the top molars with your tongue but the bottom molars could be able to pull them back in if they’re touching. Didn’t work for me because I’m pretty sure I have my teeth apart during the night


Try sleeping without a pillow ngl. Help me with night time mouth breathing. Stand on a wall with feet and ass touching it. Then, get a pillow and put it behind your head. You will get forward head posture and find it harder to keep teeth together and not mouthbreathe. Ditch the pillow and maybe go on a yoga mat to keep ideal alignment. Read this thread too it talks about alignment a little.
https://looksmax.org/threads/easiest-way-to-mew-in-your-sleep.4713/


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## Deleted member 12218 (Feb 11, 2021)

Lmao said:


> Try sleeping without a pillow ngl. Help me with night time mouth breathing. Stand on a wall with feet and ass touching it. Then, get a pillow and put it behind your head. You will get forward head posture and find it harder to keep teeth together and not mouthbreathe. Ditch the pillow and maybe go on a yoga mat to keep ideal alignment. Read this thread too it talks about alignment a little.
> https://looksmax.org/threads/easiest-way-to-mew-in-your-sleep.4713/


I’ve been sleeping without a pillow for 2 years now, recently switched from couch to yoga mat and gotta day it definitely feels a lot better on my back and neck.


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## Lmao (Feb 11, 2021)

22Bones said:


> I’ve been sleeping without a pillow for 2 years now, recently switched from couch to yoga mat and gotta day it definitely feels a lot better on my back and neck.


feels better on the neck, but shouldnt your teeth touch now?


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## Deleted member 12218 (Feb 11, 2021)

Lmao said:


> feels better on the neck, but shouldnt your teeth touch now?


It’s getting better, not an every night thing


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## Lmao (Feb 11, 2021)

22Bones said:


> It’s getting better, not an every night thing


How bad is ur recession? do you have bone mass and are downswung or have none and have a caved in face


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## Deleted member 12218 (Feb 11, 2021)

Lmao said:


> How bad is ur recession? do you have bone mass and are downswung or have none and have a caved in face


Small bones but ok placement, downswung by about a centimeter I’d say


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## SPFromNY914 (Feb 11, 2021)

Babushkacatlady said:


> Was a mouth breather for most of childhood due to big tonsils. Chewed a shit ton from age 16-18 for several hours a day. Did nothing for my class 2 and left me with chipmunk round jaw, but did help my ramus. Stopped doing that and just focused on tongue posture, jutting, lips together, and teeth gently together from 19-20 and fixed the class 2 in about a year. Am 21 now, still making progress, albeit slower. I've never had orthodontics and today I get compliments on "nice teeth" (only mild lower crowding) and "strong features". I'm certain if I had orthodontics, my face would look far far worse. Funny thing is, I still have a bit of a deep bite, and my maxilla is still technically around 10mm too far down and around 5mm too far back.My molars don't touch when I jut and I have a class 2, what should I do?


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## Ocelot (Feb 11, 2021)

wont this cause TMJ derangements leading to issues later down the line?\


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## betamanlet (Feb 11, 2021)

Lmao said:


> How would a palatal expander work if the limit if 50 grams. They only do like 1500 grams, and average swallow is 1800 grams.


The DNA and ALF appliances for example generate very light forces and expand the arches over time.


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## antiantifa (Feb 11, 2021)

Copemaxxing said:


> View attachment 979053
> this guy ccw mogs me


No, you easily CCW mog him. Gigachad jaw + ridicilously short maxilla.


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## antiantifa (Feb 11, 2021)

Ocelot said:


> wont this cause TMJ derangements leading to issues later down the line?\


It might. Is it worth the risk? Fuck yeah.


22Bones said:


> Small bones but ok placement, downswung by about a centimeter I’d say
> View attachment 979520
> View attachment 979521


Your side actually looks really well for a chin-tucked picture +rep for not pushing your mandible out.


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## Deleted member 12218 (Feb 11, 2021)

betamanlet said:


> The DNA and ALF appliances for example generate very light forces and expand the arches over time.


If you’re an adult they’re basically just tipping teeth, suture growth from appliances only really happen when you’re young.


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## betamanlet (Feb 11, 2021)

22Bones said:


> If you’re an adult they’re basically just tipping teeth, suture growth from appliances only really happen when you’re young.


They don't induce sutural growth, but rather remodeling of the alveolus. The simply mimic natural oral posture for those whose palates are too small for the tongue to do it.


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## Deleted member 12218 (Feb 11, 2021)

betamanlet said:


> They don't induce sutural growth, but rather remodeling of the alveolus.


Now this, I’ve never heard of. The way I understood it was this, you can expand the palate in 2 ways, creating new growth at the suture/splitting suture, or tipping of teeth outwards while the roots remain in the same position.


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## betamanlet (Feb 11, 2021)

22Bones said:


> Now this, I’ve never heard of. The way I understood it was this, you can expand the palate in 2 ways, creating new growth at the suture/splitting suture, or tipping of teeth outwards while the roots remain in the same position.


The suture is possibly the most convenient site of growth, but overall the palate is designed to adapt in accordance to the loads the teeth are subjected to. The teeth can quite freely shift through the alveolar bone and the shape of the bone will respond to that.





Your browser is not able to display this video.


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## Deleted member 12218 (Feb 11, 2021)

betamanlet said:


> The suture is possibly the most convenient site of growth, but overall the palate is designed to adapt in accordance to the loads the teeth are subjected to. The teeth can quite freely shift through the alveolar bone and the shape of the bone will respond to that.
> 
> View attachment 979704


Really cool gif. In the gif wouldn’t the roots of the teeth be in the exact same position though? Because if the maxilla didn’t widen, then the roots of the teeth would stay stationary because that’s what their connected to.


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## Babushkacatlady (Feb 11, 2021)

betamanlet said:


> The suture is possibly the most convenient site of growth, but overall the palate is designed to adapt in accordance to the loads the teeth are subjected to. The teeth can quite freely shift through the alveolar bone and the shape of the bone will respond to that.
> 
> View attachment 979704


Yes this is indeed the case. Sutures aren't the only mechanism of bone growth especially in the facial bones. One can literally grow bone anywhere with micro fracture and/or cell signaling provided it is at least mostly consistent. This isn't just in the alveolar bone either, it can be in the basal bone too, as it must be noted that the alveolar bone ends around the placement of the teeth.


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## antiantifa (Feb 11, 2021)

Babushkacatlady said:


> Yes this is indeed the case. Sutures aren't the only mechanism of bone growth especially in the facial bones. One can literally grow bone anywhere with micro fracture and/or cell signaling provided it is at least mostly consistent. This isn't just in the alveolar bone either, it can be in the basal bone too, as it must be noted that the alveolar bone ends around the placement of the teeth.


DId you jut forward all the time or mostly upwards force on the first molars/premolars?


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## Babushkacatlady (Feb 11, 2021)

antiantifa said:


> DId you jut forward all the time or mostly upwards force on the first molars/premolars?


Jutted forward and some upward force on premolars and first molar area. The key when jutting is you don't want to go to an edge-to-edge bite, you just want to slide the mandible forward maintaining the molar/premolar contact until you hit the upper incisors, if that makes sense.


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## antiantifa (Feb 11, 2021)

Babushkacatlady said:


> Jutted forward and some upward force on premolars and first molar area. The key when jutting is you don't want to go to an edge-to-edge bite, you just want to slide the mandible forward maintaining the molar/premolar contact until you hit the upper incisors, if that makes sense.


So basically you don't really want to jut forward against the incisors, instead you want to "latch" against the molars/premolars and then apply low amount of force forward while also applying even force upward?


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## betamanlet (Feb 11, 2021)

antiantifa said:


> So basically you don't really want to jut forward against the incisors, instead you want to "latch" against the molars/premolars and then apply low amount of force forward while also applying even force upward?


He is saying to jut against the backside of the upper incisors, instead of edge-to-edge/tip-to-tip incisor bite, then to additionally press upward with the premolars a little.


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## antiantifa (Feb 11, 2021)

betamanlet said:


> He is saying to jut against the backside of the upper incisors, instead of edge-to-edge/tip-to-tip incisor bite, then to additionally press upward with the premolars a little.


Okay, I've already been doing it for a while, I can already feel the typical TMJ incoming. I am going to lower my intensity a lot, but my problem is when the intensity is low I feel my mandible shaking against my teeth, like briefly disconnecting with the teeth.


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## betamanlet (Feb 11, 2021)

antiantifa said:


> Okay, I've already been doing it for a while, I can already feel the typical TMJ incoming. I am going to lower my intensity a lot, but my problem is when the intensity is low I feel my mandible shaking against my teeth, like briefly disconnecting with the teeth.


Try to use your lip seal to suck the mandible against the maxillary arch. That way no active force will have to be used.


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## Babushkacatlady (Feb 11, 2021)

antiantifa said:


> Okay, I've already been doing it for a while, I can already feel the typical TMJ incoming. I am going to lower my intensity a lot, but my problem is when the intensity is low I feel my mandible shaking against my teeth, like briefly disconnecting with the teeth.


There should be minimal intensity, it should be borderline passive with minimal muscle strain. But if this is a new posture, you might feel some tension there that should improve with time.


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## antiantifa (Feb 12, 2021)

betamanlet said:


> Try to use your lip seal to suck the mandible against the maxillary arch. That way no active force will have to be used.


Seems counter-intuitive, I can only do this lip seal vacuum by bringing the lower tip of my tongue down. Also I can feel it using the muscles attached to the styloid:







This would probably causes CCW rotation of the ears which is exactly what I don't want considering how CCW rotated my ears already are.

Look at this table of correlation between muscle CSA and various facial shapes:









As you can see the pterygoids are the only muscles significantly correlated to shorter cranial base length.
Only lateral pterygoids strongly associated with increase in lower third height and decrease in upper face height. The cranial base angle and prognathism is meant by this:




Where negative correlation is ideal for forward movement of lower third relative to the maxilla.


Interesting fact is just by looking at these correlations you can see that short face syndrome is caused by masseters(shorten both upper and lower face) and to some extent by temporalis(shorten upper face, but not lower third).

Overall the lateral pterygoids seem like the ideal muscle to hypertrophy for aesthetics for men and to also prevent most craniofacial disorders in all people.

"Putative bite force from the *medial pterygoid muscle* alone *correlated positively* *with mandibular length *and* inversely with upper face height*. When muscle and tooth moment arms were considered together, a system *efficient at producing force on the first molar* was statistically *associated with a face having a large intergonial width, small intercondylar width, narrow dental arch, forward maxilla, and forward mandible.*"





Babushkacatlady said:


> There should be minimal intensity, it should be borderline passive with minimal muscle strain. But if this is a new posture, you might feel some tension there that should improve with time.


I'll see what happens overtime. I just hope my ears don't CCW rotate even more. Because I pushed my whole face forward with the tongue, the lower ear followed and I have elven ears basically.


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## betamanlet (Feb 12, 2021)

antiantifa said:


> I can only do this lip seal vacuum by bringing the lower tip of my tongue down.


You should also be able to do it by sliding the tip a bit higher, to the rugae or even slightly above them.



antiantifa said:


> As you can see the pterygoids are the only muscles significantly correlated to shorter cranial base length.
> Only lateral pterygoids strongly associated with increase in lower third height and decrease in upper face height.


Interesting. Seems like there definitely is something to this.


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## antiantifa (Feb 12, 2021)

betamanlet said:


> You should also be able to do it by sliding the tip a bit higher, to the rugae or even slightly above them.
> 
> 
> Interesting. Seems like there definitely is something to this.







Makes sense in picture above.






Also in this picture you can see the sphenomandibularis muscle.

Also if we consider bone as a semi-solid matrix, there is no need for 24/7 loading, loading every few hours will force the matrix towards a certain shape, which will continue signalling for hours.

You can see from this graph of a study that it is actually undesirable to permanently load bones for bone remodeling, in fact smaller bone loads with smaller recovery times produced the most bone growth/bone strength(I am assuming bone strength mostly comes from growth), a whopping 350% increase:






Maybe Mike Mew and the whole TGW forum have been going about it the wrong way? Maybe mewing is counter-productive for long-term results and instead just properly swallowing which happens multiple times a minute and even during sleep is sufficient or even better than hard/soft continuous mewing.

I will experiment with this, instead of jutting constantly or keeping my tongue in a certain way I'll just relax it and then occasionally bite forwards + side-wards with a cloth.

I'll also try to improve my swallowing technique even further, right now I am still subconsciously swallowing using the rear third of the tongue because of Mike's BS, I am retraining my tongue to swallow forward while expanding sideways at the same time, also my mandible slightly uses lateral pterygoids with each swallow.

"Despite receiving less mechanical stimulation, the recovery group exhibited 73% greater work to failure than the group loaded for all three periods. Another benefit of the recovery protocol included a more advantageous geometric change in the ulnar diaphysis during the final stages of the experiment. Desensitization to mechanical loading appears to be an unavoidable consequence of mechanical stimulation, and it occurs on several time scales in bone."

Here bone strength/mass/re-modelling rate is significantly higher with less mechanical stimulation compared to constant mechnical stimulation. In fact as seen, the constant mechanical stimulation lead to bone resorption.

As for how this is relevant to the maxilla shape: it is quite simple, you can't push the maxilla forward without growing bones at the rear, you can't just leave a gaping hole. To me it makes sense that sphenoid growth will cause the maxilla to move forward, the ramus to increase in height and the posterior maxilla to increase in height as well.

I think ideal profile maximizes growth of the face:


----------



## clockwiseRotator (Feb 12, 2021)

I'm low iq what do you mean by jutting? Holding lower teeth in front of upper? How does that put force anywhere?


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## antiantifa (Feb 12, 2021)

@betamanlet 
@Babushkacatlady 
























Nothing suggests their faces stopped growing with age. If anything, the oldest men typically had biggest faces. Facial size is also the biggest cue to age in humans.


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## Babushkacatlady (Feb 12, 2021)

@antiantifa

You bring up some interesting points. I personally think you need a combination of both light and consistent and a bit heavier intermittent forces for optimal effects. Most people mew too hard in my view and this causes the hard mewing thing where everyone just winds up deepening their palate, especially since the back third of the palate has the most porus and thin bone. I have seen countless stories by this point about how people focused too much on the back third and messed up their face. The tongue should be very light, kinda like a tumor slowly expanding and warping the skull as this isn't a pushing exercise as most believe.

I would be skeptical of looking at bone strength research because most of that just has to do with more bone matrix formation (Wolffs law) which just thickens the bone on the inside with no to minimal change on the exterior, since we are trying to change bone shape and position rather than strength.

Adult faces DO NOT stop growing contrary to popular belief, it is just that this rate significantly slows down. Take any man at age 20 and at age 30, the structure of the face looks significantly different. Few at 20 look like men, they still look like boys, but the same can't be said at 30 (but who knows maybe the estrogens in the water might change that).

Faces were made to constantly grow for a variety of reasons. One was that since the teeth were constantly being worn down, the face had to compensate by growing so that you wouldn't wind up with short face syndrome. Another was to compensate for minor injuries that one acquired through life. Yet another was just general adaptability to changing soft tissue structures like the airway and growing brain.
Hormones like testosterone also may take some effect here, perhaps targeting certain regions of the face more than others .

While growth is a good thing, the direction/way it grows is arguably more important. Mouthbreathers who fail to correct it WILL get worse with age even if they are adults, the rate is just slower. This is why you see a lot of jaw surgery relapse, along muscles pulling the face back to where it was. One must then ask themselves, "if those muscles can pull the face back, can't those same muscles pull it more optimally?"


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## antiantifa (Feb 12, 2021)

Babushkacatlady said:


> @antiantifa
> 
> You bring up some interesting points. I personally think you need a combination of both light and consistent and a bit heavier intermittent forces for optimal effects. Most people mew too hard in my view and this causes the hard mewing thing where everyone just winds up deepening their palate, especially since the back third of the palate has the most porus and thin bone. I have seen countless stories by this point about how people focused too much on the back third and messed up their face.
> 
> ...


Actually this is something well researched: constant force *retards suture growth*, while *cyclical force increases it*. 

I know for a fact my sutures have opened because of mewing because my whole face has become flexible, I can move my bones in any direction and there are all kinds of cracking sounds being produced. 

If I pull on my maxilla for example I get cracking sounds, then they stop even if I pull more, however if I push on it, it'll crack again. And I can constantly crack the maxilla bone like this by pulling, pushing, pulling, pushing. Of course I don't because I don't want to break off half of my face and die.









Suture growth modulated by the oscillatory component of micromechanical strain - PubMed


Sutures are fibrous connective tissue articulations between intramembranous craniofacial bones. Sutures are composed of fibroblastic cells with their matrices in the center and osteogenic cells in the periphery producing a matrix that is mineralized during skeletal growth. Whether oscillatory...




pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov





"Thus, the oscillatory component of cyclic force or more precisely the resulting cyclic strain experienced in sutures is a potent stimulus for sutural growth. The increased sutural growth by cyclic mechanical strain in the tensed NFS and compressed PMS suggests that both microscale tension and compression induce anabolic sutural growth response."









Cyclic Loading Effects on Craniofacial Strain and Sutural Growth in Pigs


Current craniofacial growth modification devices utilize static forces but cyclic forces are believed by some to be more effective. The latter has not been evaluated in large animal models, and it is not known how such forces are transmitted to distant ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov





"After validating the device, cyclic (2.5Hz) tensile loads were applied unilaterally to the NFS of abattoir pig heads (n=6), with strain gages on multiple sutures. Similar loading was applied to 3-month old live pigs (_Sus scrofa_, n=4 and 1 sham) *30 minutes/day* for 5 days.
Daily spurts of cyclic load caused sutural strain throughout the skull. The regime likely enhances suture growth and may be therapeutically useful."

The study I previously used wasn't on sutures, but still showed an impressive 15% increase in total bone area(2D), the 3D effect on the volume would probably be even higher than 15%, though my trig math is horrible. 

*Btw the study on the suture growth on pigs was done on young pigs.

Specifically this one:








Cyclic Loading Effects on Craniofacial Strain and Sutural Growth in Pigs


Current craniofacial growth modification devices utilize static forces but cyclic forces are believed by some to be more effective. The latter has not been evaluated in large animal models, and it is not known how such forces are transmitted to distant ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov




*


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## antiantifa (Feb 12, 2021)

@Babushkacatlady

The thing is how does the mandible even grow? I am sure it's sutures are fully fused even in young adults, while a lot of sutures around maxilla and zygo stay permenantly open/half-open for lifetime.

Some kind of a weird way:






It's funny cause after I looksminned from too much chewing I had a lot of pain at the rear of my whole mandible, then my ramus became giga wide in a few months.

Now it's like bone-to-bone 4 cm wide, so I guess jaw loading can still cause growth in the mandible even in adults.


----------



## Babushkacatlady (Feb 12, 2021)

@antiantifa

I don't think the main mode of optimal change in the maxilla is sutural for an adult, I think it comes on an individual cellular basis with maybe some small sutural changes. The sutures were also designed as shock absorbers from tough chewing and some research shows that sutures prematurely close if there is inadequate stimulation. Chewing can also stimulate sutures too since it is cyclic. 

The mandible grows on a cellular basis, where cells are removed from the back and added onto the front, not suturally.

Other cranial bones changing are mainly sutural with some remodeling shape changes (like the cranial base after puberty).


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## betamanlet (Feb 12, 2021)

antiantifa said:


> I know for a fact my sutures have opened because of mewing because my whole face has become flexible, I can move my bones in any direction and there are all kinds of cracking sounds being produced.


In which all places do you experience sutural cracking? I only experience these in my posterior skull. I wonder if wearing retractive headgear every night as a child resulted in premature sutural ossification in the circummaxillary sutures.


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## betamanlet (Feb 12, 2021)

antiantifa said:


> The thing is how does the mandible even grow?


Makes sense that if the mandibular molars are pushed backwards by the maxillary arch, the mandible would respond as shown in the pic, in order to create additional room in between the molars and the ramii.


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## Babushkacatlady (Feb 12, 2021)

betamanlet said:


> Makes sense that if the mandibular molars are pushed backwards by the maxillary arch, the mandible would respond as shown in the pic, in order to create additional room in between the molars and the ramii.


I think this is part of the equation. We also should note the ramus "uprights" (moves back relative to the forward growing mandible) during pubertal growth, making room for 3rd molars (wisdom teeth), or at least it should.


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## antiantifa (Feb 12, 2021)

betamanlet said:


> In which all places do you experience sutural cracking? I only experience these in my posterior skull. I wonder if wearing retractive headgear every night as a child resulted in premature sutural ossification in the circummaxillary sutures.


Idk, I can't tell, there are multiple cracks, I think mostly around sphenoid? Also my left maxillary-zygo suture feels open, but the right one I can't feel the hole.


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## antiantifa (Feb 12, 2021)

Babushkacatlady said:


> @antiantifa
> 
> I don't think the main mode of optimal change in the maxilla is sutural for an adult, I think it comes on an individual cellular basis with maybe some small sutural changes. The sutures were also designed as shock absorbers from tough chewing and some research shows that sutures prematurely close if there is inadequate stimulation. Chewing can also stimulate sutures too since it is cyclic.
> 
> ...


Whether the growth is through sutures or direct bone growth, it's undeniable that the adult face grows with age as you said, it's also undeniable that cyclical forces, proper nutrition and maybe even certain anabolics/growth hormone-analogues would optimize that growth.






As you can see in the graph above even at 30 years old the peak of mandible growth hasn't been reached.

27.5mm at 35 years old, 25mm at 20 years old, 22mm at 10 years old.
Basically growth in jaw size from 10-20 is about the same as 20-35.

And this is only mandible length in average adults who don't stimulate bone growth that much(don't forcefully swallow every few seconds, don't eat hard food, barely do volume of chewing).

This study shows growth hormone grows mandible in GH-deficient adults and that the age of initiation doesn't matter:








Growth hormone, gender and face shape in Prader-Willi syndrome - PubMed


Prader-Willi syndrome is a neurodevelopmental disorder resulting from the absence of expression of paternally expressed gene(s) in a highly imprinted region of chromosome 15q11-13. The physical phenotype includes evidence of growth retardation due to relative growth hormone deficiency, small...




pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov





Another interesting fact is that people with gigantism have facial growth through-out their lifespan.

But it's not the aesthetic type of growth:


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## Deleted member 5969 (Feb 12, 2021)

antiantifa said:


>


*NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
I HAD BRACES WITH ELASTICS, AND 4 MOLARS AND A WISDOM TOOTH REMOVAL
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO*


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## antiantifa (Feb 12, 2021)

@Babushkacatlady 

Also check out this interesting study:









The Relationship between Bone Remodeling and the Clockwise Rotation of the Facial Skeleton: A Computed Tomographic Imaging-Based Evaluation - PubMed


Age-related changes of the midfacial skeleton occurred independently of gender, but at various time points in different locations. The observed changes seem to be driven by a bone resorption center located in the posterior maxilla, rather than by a rotational movement of the facial skeleton.




pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov





"Age-related changes of the mid-facial skeleton occurred independently of gender, but at various time points in different locations. The observed changes seem to be driven by a bone resorption center located in the posterior maxilla, rather than by a rotational movement of the facial skeleton."

If resorption can happen at posterior maxilla, I am sure deposition can happen as well.


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## antiantifa (Feb 12, 2021)

werty1457 said:


> *NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
> I HAD BRACES WITH ELASTICS, AND 4 MOLARS AND A WISDOM TOOTH REMOVAL
> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO*


F for Respect, fallen comrade.


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## antiantifa (Feb 12, 2021)

@Babushkacatlady

Sorry for the spam, this study directly shows that in adults there is possible growth in midpalatal and pterygopalatine sutures:

"Conclusions: Midpalatal suture was successfully split by MSE in late adolescents, and the opening was almost perfectly parallel in a sagittal direction. Regarding the extent of transverse asymmetry of the split, on average one half of ANS moved more than the contralateral one by 1.1 mm. Pterygopalatine suture was split in its lower region by MSE, as the pyramidal process was pulled out from the pterygoid process. Patient gender and age had a negligible influence on suture opening for the age group considered in the study."

14-26 years old were the participants age.

This is also a very good blog to read:









When does midpalatal suture close ?


Summerized by : Dr.Hani Alhebshi. When does midpalatal suture close ? Upon searching the web , I found some useful articles answering this question. It has been stated that there is quite wide vari…




sorthoclub.wordpress.com





"There are conflicting views about the closure of midpalatal suture. The chronological age does not seem to be a reliable indicator for a real morphological status of the midpalatal suture closure. According to earlier studies, sutures of the cranial vault start to obliterate during the third decade of life. According to Persson and Thilander15 earliest obliteration can be seen in the posterior palate of a 15-year-old girl and there may be no obliteration at all in a 27-year-old female. Earliest obliteration in male was found in a 21 years and no obliteration at all in a 32-year-old male. According to Sperber,16 obliteration may start in adolescence, but complete fusion is rarely found before 30 years of age."

This might be the suture I keep hearing cracking in, it always felt around sphenoid. The bone around the cracking suture also directly connected to the pterygoid muscle, because I can use this muscle to crack it in both directions(forward by swallowing really hard, backwards by pushing on my mandible).


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## antiantifa (Feb 12, 2021)

betamanlet said:


> In which all places do you experience sutural cracking? I only experience these in my posterior skull. I wonder if wearing retractive headgear every night as a child resulted in premature sutural ossification in the circummaxillary sutures.


Try maybe opening this suture? Just push against your mandible while jutting your mandible forward, then reverse it by thumb-pulling on your maxilla forward, this works really well for me, often I am afraid of using too much force for fear of literally ripping my maxilla out.

The more I do this, the harder the cracks become and the more movement I feel. It's a scary exercise ngl.

The exact way is :

Push 3 seconds against the mandible while jutting as counter-force(keep mandible position relatively stable, don't over-extend it), then pull for 3 seconds against the palate upwards and forwards with your thumbs. I think if you do this for 15 minutes or even shorter you will start hearing cracking in your face.


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## Babushkacatlady (Feb 12, 2021)

antiantifa said:


> Whether the growth is through sutures or direct bone growth, it's undeniable that the adult face grows with age as you said, it's also undeniable that cyclical forces, proper nutrition and maybe even certain anabolics/growth hormone-analogues would optimize that growth.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Pure mandibular growth alone will not lead to the aesthetic outcome most people want as this pic and others of gigantism/acromegaly show. Even people who use high amounts of GH long term, show this. In my view most positive changes will come from the bones changing shape and position with time rather than just growth. Chewing won't lead to the growth shown on the graph above, it will specifically deposit bone on the mandible where the stresses occur and the muscle insertion points. 



antiantifa said:


> Also check out this interesting study:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


When the posterior maxilla resorbs with no direct change to the anterior, it will cause something similar to clockwise rotation, due to the fulcrum of change being somewhere in the middle of the maxilla and the anterior must compensate with a clockwise-like rotation. My take on this is:

Anterior resorbed/moved up, posterior therefore deposited/moved down= CCW, can lead to open bite

Posterior resorbed/moved up, anterior therefore deposited/moved down= CW, can lead to deep bite

Anterior resorbed/moved up+posterior maintained or even slightly resorbed/moved up= Optimal and will lead to midface shortening, higher cheekbones, less round and well supported eyes. This is from that post on TGW, which would require a lot of upward mid facial compression from light forces:







antiantifa said:


> Sorry for the spam, this study directly shows that in adults there is possible growth in midpalatal and pterygopalatine sutures:
> 
> "Conclusions: Midpalatal suture was successfully split by MSE in late adolescents, and the opening was almost perfectly parallel in a sagittal direction. Regarding the extent of transverse asymmetry of the split, on average one half of ANS moved more than the contralateral one by 1.1 mm. Pterygopalatine suture was split in its lower region by MSE, as the pyramidal process was pulled out from the pterygoid process. Patient gender and age had a negligible influence on suture opening for the age group considered in the study."
> 
> ...



For sure MSE for example proves that this can be done in adults. Even slower expanders have shown this. These sutures aren't really meant to close under normal conditions of cyclic load like heavy chewing but these days they close early cause nobody chews their food. Another thing is that the maxilla will move a mm or two forward from expansion alone because it jams the maxilla against the zygomatic buttress and the reciprocal force will wedge it forward a bit.


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## antiantifa (Feb 12, 2021)

@betamanlet 

Idk if you'll be able to hear it, but after every-time I say crack I crack my palate, my phone isn't very sensitive to sound, but you can actually hear the minuscule cracks, there's like 2-5 of them at once, especially the last one is very audible:






your_browser_is_not_able_to_play_this_audio





*NOTE I DO NOT CONDONE OPENING UR SUTURES WITHOUT UR DOCTOR IF U KILL URSELF ON ACIDDENT THATS ON U NOT MY FAULT THIS WARNING IS FOR ALL READING THIS THREAD. *


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## antiantifa (Feb 12, 2021)

Babushkacatlady said:


> Pure mandibular growth alone will not lead to the aesthetic outcome most people want as this pic and others of gigantism/acromegaly show. Even people who use high amounts of GH long term, show this. In my view most positive changes will come from the bones changing shape and position with time rather than just growth. Chewing won't lead to the growth shown on the graph above, it will specifically deposit bone on the mandible where the stresses occur and the muscle insertion points.
> 
> 
> When the posterior maxilla resorbs with no direct change to the anterior, it will cause something similar to clockwise rotation, due to the fulcrum of change being somewhere in the middle of the maxilla and the anterior must compensate with a clockwise-like rotation. My take on this is:
> ...


I agree that pure mandibular growth will not work, but what I am thinking about is that posterior addition of bone = CCW rotation of the whole face.

Look at the media file I sent to betamanlet, my sutures are cracking and moving, after doing that exercise I now feel pain between my sphenoid and maxilla, specifically it feels the most around palatine/maxilla/sphenoid. I am sure it is inflamed now and will grow, if I don't keep moving it daily and hard swallowing it will for sure fuse because of inflammation.

The info I sent shows that even in adults up to 35 years old the suture can stay open, but even in young people as young as 14 it can be closed.


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## Babushkacatlady (Feb 12, 2021)

antiantifa said:


> @betamanlet
> 
> Idk if you'll be able to hear it, but after every-time I say crack I crack my palate, my phone isn't very sensitive to sound, but you can actually hear the minuscule cracks, there's like 2-5 of them at once, especially the last one is very audible:
> 
> ...


lol don't fucking die. I think I did hear something slight though.


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## antiantifa (Feb 12, 2021)

Babushkacatlady said:


> lol don't fucking die. I think I did hear something slight though.


Lol just max volume it, the cracks you're hearing aren't me moving I am perfectly still, those are my bones being pulled and pushed multiple times.


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## antiantifa (Feb 12, 2021)

Babushkacatlady said:


> lol don't fucking die. I think I did hear something slight though.


Either way I'll make an update here in like a month or at least I notice actual difference in my face. We'll see if this theory is legit or not. I think I've already grown my face out a lot:












About same weight/height. I know it's not the same angle, but there's undeniable difference between chin prominence. I've also always known since beginning my mandible begun inside my neck muscle, now I can stack about 1-2 fingers between gonion and neck muscle.


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## antiantifa (Feb 12, 2021)

NVM


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## PURE ARYAN GENETICS (Feb 12, 2021)

I've been saying this for a while but people here parrot the tmj bs all the time. if you assume correct posture (giga chintuck and chest out for birdcels), your mandible hangs slightly forward naturally (basically a jut). once again it's just good posture and good muscle tone (eg tongue). and posture is just good muscle tone plus good habits (not sleeping on a bunch of pillows, not sitting in front of monitor that's too far away/too low all day, not wearing heavy backpacks full of useless shit as kids, having shoes that don't fuck up your feet/torque chain in your body etc). it's the reason I made a custom standing pc setup that I use barefoot


betamanlet said:


> Now that I think of it, there was something in that article series from Portland's TMJ clinic that relates to the study:
> 
> View attachment 978710
> 
> ...


brutal blackpill. it really was my personality all along 

anyway great article


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## PURE ARYAN GENETICS (Feb 12, 2021)

antiantifa said:


> @betamanlet
> 
> Idk if you'll be able to hear it, but after every-time I say crack I crack my palate, my phone isn't very sensitive to sound, but you can actually hear the minuscule cracks, there's like 2-5 of them at once, especially the last one is very audible:
> 
> ...


are you thumb pulling or what


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## betamanlet (Feb 12, 2021)

antiantifa said:


> @betamanlet
> 
> Idk if you'll be able to hear it, but after every-time I say crack I crack my palate, my phone isn't very sensitive to sound, but you can actually hear the minuscule cracks, there's like 2-5 of them at once, especially the last one is very audible:
> 
> ...


Damn that sounds spooky.



antiantifa said:


> Either way I'll make an update here in like a month or at least I notice actual difference in my face. We'll see if this theory is legit or not. I think I've already grown my face out a lot:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It'll be interesting to see if you'll keep changing all the way towards something like this:





That may be a bit too westernized silhouette though. What's your ethnicity?



PURE ARYAN GENETICS said:


> brutal blackpill. it really was my personality all along


Lol!


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## Babushkacatlady (Feb 12, 2021)

antiantifa said:


>





betamanlet said:


>


If you don't mind I took the before and after pics of this morph and drew some very quick maxillary and mandibular anatomical structures sketches and superimposed them:


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## antiantifa (Feb 12, 2021)

betamanlet said:


> Damn that sounds spooky.
> 
> 
> It'll be interesting to see if you'll keep changing all the way towards something like this:
> ...


Not going to lie, to me I look really ugly in that morph, so I hope I don't change to that, but then again based on my avi you can already see I am a big fan of high gonial angles, not short ones.

My ethnicity is Monogolo-Russian.


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## antiantifa (Feb 12, 2021)

Babushkacatlady said:


> If you don't mind I took the before and after pics of this morph and drew some very quick maxillary and mandibular anatomical structures sketches and superimposed them:
> View attachment 982951
> View attachment 982952
> View attachment 982954


IMO ramus is simply too short in the morph, which makes me look weird.

Strangely enough my ramus actually goes through my ear if that makes sense and my palatal occlusion has shorter angle(more horizontal).

I think the perfect morph would actually if lost my nasal hump and gained ramus length with some teeth rotation, without any more forward movement of my chin.


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## betamanlet (Feb 12, 2021)

antiantifa said:


> Not going to lie, to me I look really ugly in that morph, so I hope I don't change to that, but then again based on my avi you can already see I am a big fan of high gonial angles, not short ones.
> 
> My ethnicity is Monogolo-Russian.





antiantifa said:


> IMO ramus is simply too short in the morph, which makes me look weird.


I agree now that you pointed it out. I seem to have a fringe sense of aesthetics anyway, people rarely agree with my edits. I've also noticed that you quickly become face-blind while working on an edit. Often you'll make a change that looks good in the moment, only to return to it the following day and wonder what the hell you were thinking.


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## Babushkacatlady (Feb 14, 2021)

@betamanlet 
@antiantifa

I can't remember where I found it but here is an interesting gif that shows changes in the maxilla. This is superimposed in the S-N plane so it doesn't show changes in the sphenoid:


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## antiantifa (Feb 14, 2021)

Babushkacatlady said:


> @betamanlet
> @antiantifa
> 
> I can't remember where I found it but here is an interesting gif that shows changes in the maxilla. This is superimposed in the S-N plane so it doesn't show changes in the sphenoid:



Yeah I need these changes to rotate my ears.


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## Babushkacatlady (Feb 14, 2021)

antiantifa said:


> Yeah I need these changes to rotate my ears.


Ears too elfish? I recommend neck training. The sternocleidomastoid attaches right behind the ear (mastoid process) and this will push the bottom part of the ears out.


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## betamanlet (Feb 14, 2021)

Babushkacatlady said:


> @betamanlet
> @antiantifa
> 
> I can't remember where I found it but here is an interesting gif that shows changes in the maxilla. This is superimposed in the S-N plane so it doesn't show changes in the sphenoid:



That's one of my favorite gifs. I have no idea where it came from though or what the context around it is. Is this craniostructurally valid movement, with the dynamics between all bones taken in account? Or is it just a loose morph? Interesting in any case. Would be amazing to end up with such movement.


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## Babushkacatlady (Feb 14, 2021)

betamanlet said:


> That's one of my favorite gifs. I have no idea where it came from though or what the context around it is. Is this craniostructurally valid movement, with the dynamics between all bones taken in account? Or is it just a loose morph? Interesting in any case. Would be amazing to end up with such movement.


I don't where it came from exactly know either, just had it saved. Tried reverse image searching it but it turned up nothing. I think this study may shed some light on it though https://www.researchgate.net/public...predicts_variation_in_internal_skeletal_shape

Found this post on lookism too (https://lookism.net/threads/on-the-cranial-base.381027/), interesting read, with this gif and this pic:





It looks pretty valid to me based on the changes. The occipital bone is moving up, and if superimposed on F-N instead of S-N the sphenoid is also moving up. The nasal bone and nasal floor change, the maxillary sinus reshaping/"cheek line", and the forwards and up movement of the whole palate and upper incisors, and the cranial base angle becoming acute is consistent to what I've seen and believe to be correct so I think its legit.


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## betamanlet (Feb 15, 2021)

Babushkacatlady said:


> I don't where it came from exactly know either, just had it saved. Tried reverse image searching it but it turned up nothing. I think this study may shed some light on it though https://www.researchgate.net/public...predicts_variation_in_internal_skeletal_shape
> 
> Found this post on lookism too (https://lookism.net/threads/on-the-cranial-base.381027/), interesting read, with this gif and this pic:
> View attachment 987268
> ...


Interesting. I think you were right about the dual bite by the way. I've been forming my chewing pattern around the jutting motion now too, crushing the food in between the side surfaces of the incisors and canines (rather than in between the top surface of the molars). Haven't had any TMJ popping so far. This has turned out to demand a lot from the lateral pterygoids, it's clear that they had been under-utilized all this time.


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## Babushkacatlady (Feb 15, 2021)

betamanlet said:


> Interesting. I think you were right about the dual bite by the way. I've been forming my chewing pattern around the jutting motion now too, crushing the food in between the side surfaces of the incisors and canines (rather than in between the top surface of the molars). Haven't had any TMJ popping so far. This has turned out to demand a lot from the lateral pterygoids, it's clear that they had been under-utilized all this time.


Good to hear. The orthotropic device called the Biobloc stage 3 has people hold a jutting position for 18-20 hours per day initially, then people just wearing it over night. It is said that the TMJ itself takes at least 6 months to remodel to the new position and the muscles to change their position and shape up to a year to year and a half after that to keep that position stable.


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## antiantifa (Feb 16, 2021)

Babushkacatlady said:


> Ears too elfish? I recommend neck training. The sternocleidomastoid attaches right behind the ear (mastoid process) and this will push the bottom part of the ears out.


Already do neck training often.


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## antiantifa (Feb 16, 2021)

@Babushkacatlady
@betamanlet




















These muscles above are all much more relevant for cranial base than masticatory muscles.



> *In palatal clefts, the muscles of the soft palate are hypoplastic*


In this case the soft palate muscles are the levator/tensor palatini,and the muscle surrounding them.







> Radiographs of a platybasic individual (A) demonstrating an obtuse cranial-base angle (1448) and radiographs of a nonplatybasic patient (B) demonstrating a more acute cranial-base angle (1168). Ba-S-N reference points indicate the cranial-base angle; S-N, anterior cranial base; Ba-S, posterior cranial base. Ba basion; S sella; N nasion. Less





> The prevalence of platybasia was significantly higher in the VPI group (28.7%) than in the normal controls (2.4%)


VPI = Velopharyngeal Incompetence = weak levator and tensor palatini muscles.



If you swallow a certain way, where you tense the lateral pterygoid, the inferior anterior tongue muscles, the palatoglossus and the levator palatini, you can feel the temporal bone being pulled downwards at the inferior anterior region. 

Currently my temporal bone is very CCW rotated. I wonder if CCW rotated temporal bone equals CW rotated maxilla?


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## joseph (Feb 16, 2021)

antiantifa said:


> Man you have to explain what you do at night with your teeth. You have some form of bruxism that gave you too much CCW rotation and gave you a giga-chad jaw at the expense of no visible teeth in your smile.
> 
> You have a ridiculously short distance between your incisor and your nose as well.


can you fix short distance between incisor and nose?


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## antiantifa (Feb 16, 2021)

joseph said:


> can you fix short distance between incisor and nose?


dont think u can do so naturally, typically this is caused by clenching which causes the bone to actually recede.


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## Babushkacatlady (Feb 16, 2021)

antiantifa said:


> @Babushkacatlady
> @betamanlet
> 
> View attachment 989837
> ...


Interesting so you think these muscles are controlling the rotation of the temporal bone and cranial base orientation? It is hypothetically possible tbh. I think temporalis also has some influence on both mandibular position stability and cranial base.

We should also note that the sphenoid (Point S) moves/rotates up when the maxilla moves to an ideal position and moves/rotates down when maxilla is unideal (given this is a vertical growth situation).

We also know how the cranial base angle (Ba-S-N) becomes more acute with ideal growth. What proportion do you think this is just the sphenoid moving up *versus* the Basion (Ba) closing and moving forwards via the spheno occipital synchondrosis flexing forward?

@betamanlet
@antiantifa
Another thing of interesting note other than the muscles is the nerves running through the cranial bones. The non alveolar portion of the mandible is merely a little outgrowth of bone that grows around the inferior alveolar nerve:









We know that people who are struck with major neuromotor diseases and injuries can cause atrophy within the bone because the nerve has been cut off/lost conductivity. *Nerves also run throughout the bones of the skull and cranial base often having the very same foundational shape.*Is the bone loss from simply a lack of functional stimulation from the muscles or the nerves themselves?

Now this might sound very very out there and insane, perhaps bordering on mystical/spiritual:* Is this a case of mind over matter? Can the mere mental focus and will on the sensory nerves strengthen, change shape, and position of cranial bones via nerve conduction and out-splitting and stimulation? If I focus on sensation near my sphenoid, perhaps one on the top of my sphenoid, given that nerves can functionally stimulate bone, can this cause some kind of shift within it?*


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## Deleted member 10172 (Feb 16, 2021)

antiantifa said:


> @Copemaxxing keep messaging me with his profile, he has most CCW rotated profile I've ever seen. He also has some form of bruxism(probably jutting).
> 
> Is jutting now legit for CCW rotation or not?
> 
> ...


Jutting is cope


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## Babushkacatlady (Feb 17, 2021)

I will also leave this quote here from *Essentials of Facial Growth by Enlow and Hans*, it is something to think about:

_"In your lifetime, you have seen the faces of thousands of people, and each face is recognizable to you as distinctively individual. No two are quite alike, even those of identical twins. Every person's face is a custom-made original; there has never been another face exactly the same before,and there never will be again. Yet consider how relatively few parts comprise a face: a lower jaw and chin, cheekbones, a mouth and upper jaw, a nose, and two orbits. Add a forehead and supraorbital ridges for the neurocranial parts relating to the face. How is it possible that so few components can underlie such great variation in facial form?
The answer is that we have the ability to perceive exceedingly subtle differences in the relative shape, spread, and proportions of both hard and soft tissue parts and minute variations in the topographic contours among all of them. Very slight alterations in the configuration of the nose, for example, make a substantial difference in the appearance and the character of one's face as a whole. (Fig. 8-1, shows a sketch from photographs of the same person before and after rhinoplasty; they look like two quite different individuals, although only a minor nasal contour has been altered.) Furthermore, there is the particular "set" to a person's mouth, the personal sparkle in the eyes, and the tone in the muscles of facial expression that are quite individualized. Often we ask, ''Who does that person remind you of?" because there is some unique combination of nasal contour, lip configuration, jaw shape, and so on, that resembles some other face known to us."_


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## hairyballscel (Feb 23, 2021)

Babushkacatlady said:


> Anterior resorbed/moved up+posterior maintained or even slightly resorbed/moved up= Optimal and will lead to midface shortening, higher cheekbones, less round and well supported eyes. This is from that post on TGW, which would require a lot of upward mid facial compression from light forces:



how do u achieve this?


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## Babushkacatlady (Feb 23, 2021)

hairyballscel said:


> how do u achieve this?


Mewing over several years. No surgery will fix the long midface but can only offer camouflage options like a rhinoplasty and cheek augmentation, but it will still look odd.


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## antiantifa (Feb 23, 2021)

Babushkacatlady said:


> Mewing over several years. No surgery will fix the long midface but can only offer camouflage options like a rhinoplasty and cheek augmentation, but it will still look odd.


IMO doesn't look like a good change, lack of vertical growth.


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## Deleted member 4410 (Feb 23, 2021)

Don't you guys look like with a severe underbite when jutting? I can't even protrude lower jaw even a bit, cuz it looks legit retarded. Maybe it's cause of my recession/edge-to-edge bite.


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## antiantifa (Feb 23, 2021)

Kurwa said:


> Don't you guys look like with a severe underbite when jutting? I can't even protrude lower jaw even a bit, cuz it looks legit retarded. Maybe it's cause of my recession/edge-to-edge bite.


lol ur name checks out, ur supposed to jut while keeping teeth contact, but idk if it's legit/healthy


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## Deleted member 4410 (Feb 23, 2021)

antiantifa said:


> lol ur name checks out, ur supposed to jut while keeping teeth contact, but idk if it's legit/healthy


not sure what that means. Even if I move lower teeth like 2mms forward I look like I have underbite.


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## antiantifa (Feb 23, 2021)

Kurwa said:


> not sure what that means. Even if I move lower teeth like 2mms forward I look like I have underbite.


Push lower teeth against upper teeth, don't actually jut your jaw.


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## Deleted member 4410 (Feb 23, 2021)

antiantifa said:


> Push lower teeth against upper teeth, don't actually jut your jaw.


Still doesn't look good. Keep that in mind, that I have edge-to-edge bite. I don't have that slight protrusion of upper incisors.


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## antiantifa (Feb 23, 2021)

Kurwa said:


> Still doesn't look good. Keep that in mind, that I have edge-to-edge bite. I don't have that slight protrusion of upper incisors.


Literally don't understand your point, re-read the thread, mate.


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## Deleted member 4410 (Feb 23, 2021)

Babushkacatlady said:


> Mewing over several years. No surgery will fix the long midface but can only offer camouflage options like a rhinoplasty and cheek augmentation, but it will still look odd.


can you post the link to that TGW thread? She looks like she got her face completely remodeled...


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## hairyballscel (Feb 23, 2021)

Babushkacatlady said:


> Mewing over several years. No surgery will fix the long midface but can only offer camouflage options like a rhinoplasty and cheek augmentation, but it will still look odd.


whats the mechanism behind the changes in the pic?

CCW rotation of maxilla?


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## Babushkacatlady (Feb 23, 2021)

Kurwa said:


> can you post the link to that TGW thread? She looks like she got her face completely remodeled...





hairyballscel said:


> whats the mechanism behind the changes in the pic?
> 
> CCW rotation of maxilla?



That pic is a morph, those aren't actual results. That change is from the maxilla shortening vertically and some CCW rotation coming with that.


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## RecessedPrettyboy (Feb 23, 2021)

I need CW rotation of the maxilla to gain 9mm of lower third height
And then I need to bring my jaw forward by like 7mm because of the CW rotation.

I had some sort of class 3 as a child. My maxilla was fine but my mandible was too forwards and vertically short because I lacked maxilla height. Probably because of bruxism. So instead of my dentist giving me CW because I lacked lower third height, he just pulled the mandible back or sth and made the occlusion normal.

So naturally I shouldnt have had this problem if my dentist had given me CW instead of pulling my fucking mandible back by however much he did...
What a fucking bitch.

I can get tads with invisalign to help rotate the maxilla CW, when I smile you cant see my front full teeth by 5mm. So I can rotate CW 5mm on the front teeth. (my current orthodontist wants to do 2.5mm in 6 months jfl. Im pretty sure it doesnt take that long especially when there is chewing and shit that can accelerate that.
And I can rotate like 3mm on the back teeth with the tads.

but after this my mandible will be recessed by around 6mm. so I need to undo what my shit first orthodontist did and bring it forwards.
but my orthodontist wants to do a chin implant or a chin surgery jfl. theres no way im doing that shit.

Can any of you help me out? Im can try any experiments chewing jutting or whatever tf


@antiantifa @retard @betamanlet @Babushkacatlady

If you all are curious to see my case and the effects I got from all this I have ct scan and xrays too I can pm


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## RecessedPrettyboy (Feb 23, 2021)

Also to add info about recession
I was a mouth breather my entire life till 2 years ago due to tonsils and allergies.
Yet I had perfect forward maxilla development
And I guess mandible until it was pulled back.


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## hairyballscel (Feb 23, 2021)

Babushkacatlady said:


> That change is from the maxilla shortening vertically and some CCW rotation coming with that.


do you think chewing with anterior teeth during MSE could give CCW rotation?


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## Babushkacatlady (Feb 23, 2021)

hairyballscel said:


> do you think chewing with anterior teeth during MSE could give CCW rotation?


No. Chewing is unlikely to move your teeth or reshape your maxilla in the way you want. Only long term oral posture will.


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## RecessedPrettyboy (Feb 23, 2021)

I think im just going to jut and give myself a class 3 underbite
So when I get the CW rotation of my maxilla with invisalign tads the occlusion will be normal

Is this anything of a good idea at all?


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## RecessedPrettyboy (Feb 23, 2021)

antiantifa said:


> Try maybe opening this suture? Just push against your mandible while jutting your mandible forward, then reverse it by thumb-pulling on your maxilla forward, this works really well for me, often I am afraid of using too much force for fear of literally ripping my maxilla out.
> 
> The more I do this, the harder the cracks become and the more movement I feel. It's a scary exercise ngl.
> 
> ...


this works. I hear cracks there


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## Babushkacatlady (Feb 23, 2021)

RecessedPrettyboy said:


> I need CW rotation of the maxilla to gain 9mm of lower third height
> And then I need to bring my jaw forward by like 7mm because of the CW rotation.
> 
> I had some sort of class 3 as a child. My maxilla was fine but my mandible was too forwards and vertically short because I lacked maxilla height. Probably because of bruxism. So instead of my dentist giving me CW because I lacked lower third height, he just pulled the mandible back or sth and made the occlusion normal.
> ...


PM scan and x rays if possible, preferably a pic of the face (or part of it) too.


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## Deleted member 4410 (Feb 24, 2021)

RecessedPrettyboy said:


> Also to add info about recession
> I was a mouth breather my entire life till 2 years ago due to tonsils and allergies.
> Yet I had perfect forward maxilla development
> And I guess mandible until it was pulled back.


Recession/downgrowth seems to be a tricky thing. I have signs of a downgrown maxilla: visible antegonial notch, longish midface and a dorsal hump. I don't have NCT though, which is weird. On top of that I also have recessed midface: naso folds and hollow undereyes. Funny thing is I still have visible lateral zygo gworth and somehow there's angularity in the cheeks area. I have no idea how you can even get such combo.

On the other hand there's my friend who is a legit mouthbreather. He had surgically widened palate and all that jazz. Gonial angle ~140 without visible antegonial notch, NCT AND... no dorsal hump, perfect midface (no folds, good zygo projection) and undereye support.

What the shit.


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## RecessedPrettyboy (Feb 24, 2021)

antiantifa said:


> Seems counter-intuitive, I can only do this lip seal vacuum by bringing the lower tip of my tongue down. Also I can feel it using the muscles attached to the styloid:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


so if the lateral pterygoid makes the lower third taller it is giving more height to the maxilla?

making the maxilla grow downwards and forwards.

if not the lateral pterygoid, then what muscle is responsible for pulling the maxilla down and forwards? there has to be a muscle that is responsible for that


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## RecessedPrettyboy (Feb 24, 2021)

Kurwa said:


> Recession/downgrowth seems to be a tricky thing. I have signs of a downgrown maxilla: visible antegonial notch, longish midface and a dorsal hump. I don't have NCT though, which is weird. On top of that I also have recessed midface: naso folds and hollow undereyes. Funny thing is I still have visible lateral zygo gworth and somehow there's angularity in the cheeks area. I have no idea how you can even get such combo.
> 
> On the other hand there's my friend who is a legit mouthbreather. He had surgically widened palate and all that jazz. Gonial angle ~140 without visible antegonial notch, NCT AND... no dorsal hump, perfect midface (no folds, good zygo projection) and undereye support.
> 
> What the shit.


nct and eye shape is mostly caused by the malaris muscle and orbicularis oculi. rather than bone growth.
do you have droopy eyelids with slight pct?


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## RecessedPrettyboy (Feb 24, 2021)

antiantifa said:


> @Babushkacatlady
> 
> Also check out this interesting study:
> 
> ...


so there has to be a way to just add height to the maxilla without rotating it CW and losing forward growth.


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## Deleted member 4410 (Feb 25, 2021)

RecessedPrettyboy said:


> nct and eye shape is mostly caused by the malaris muscle and orbicularis oculi. rather than bone growth.
> do you have droopy eyelids with slight pct?


Can you post some examples, so I can compare?


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## Deleted member 12218 (Feb 28, 2021)

HUGE DISCOVERY: BY JUTTING 24/7 THE TMJ WILL *GROW BACKWARDS*

This means you will be forced to jut 24/7 as the time you bring your jaw back, it will aggrivate the joint again due to the longer version of itself jamming back up into the capsule.
@betamanlet @Babushkacatlady @RecessedPrettyboy @antiantifa 

Watch this video.


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## Babushkacatlady (Feb 28, 2021)

22Bones said:


> HUGE DISCOVERY: BY JUTTING 24/7 THE TMJ WILL *GROW BACKWARDS*
> 
> This means you will be forced to jut 24/7 as the time you bring your jaw back, it will aggrivate the joint again due to the longer version of itself jamming back up into the capsule.
> @betamanlet @Babushkacatlady @RecessedPrettyboy @antiantifa
> ...



Yes the joint grows backwards, because the joint comes out of the socket forwards when jutting (kinda dislocated) and it must grow backwards to adapt. Still validates this point. You shouldn't bring your jaw back to its original position, since the joint has now remodeled to a new position.


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## RecessedPrettyboy (Feb 28, 2021)

Babushkacatlady said:


> Yes the joint grows backwards, because the joint comes out of the socket forwards when jutting (kinda dislocated) and it must grow backwards to adapt. Still validates this point.


Wait so is jutting bad or good? Im kinda lost cuz I have never looked too much into jutting.


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## Deleted member 12218 (Feb 28, 2021)

Babushkacatlady said:


> Yes the joint grows backwards, because the joint comes out of the socket forwards when jutting (kinda dislocated) and it must grow backwards to adapt. Still validates this point.


Theoretically by jutting this is what you would achieve

1. More projecting chin
2. Lower incisors tipped back
3. bimaxiliary protrusion of just the top teeth
4. forward movement of the maxilla
5. Increased ramus height due to joint growing back
6. Increased distance between condyloid process and corodoid process

Any others?

Jutting has to be the best looksmax out there for a strong jaw


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## Deleted member 6382 (Feb 28, 2021)

22Bones said:


> Theoretically by jutting this is what you would achieve
> 
> 1. More projecting chin
> 2. Lower incisors tipped back
> ...


Jutting with teeth in contact or normal jutting?


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## Deleted member 12218 (Feb 28, 2021)

tapout said:


> Jutting with teeth in contact or normal jutting?


Teeth in contact


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## AscendingHero (Mar 15, 2021)

ovosoundszn said:


> Bro this thread makes me feel like im on TGW, which has the most mentally ill userbase ive ever seen. All this bullshit won't get you results. Lmao


TGW lurker spotted, this is chiefkeefsosa


*EXPOSED

end yourself jfl
mf got banned aswell lmfao*


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## ovosoundszn (Mar 15, 2021)

AscendingHero said:


> TGW lurker spotted, this is chiefkeefsosa
> 
> 
> *EXPOSED
> ...


Haha fuck that forum. I got banned from ovosoundszn for going off at progress,eddiemoney and harrykanemaxilla.

Seruously tho, you have no life if you recognized my Tgw alt and linked it to this.


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## AscendingHero (Mar 15, 2021)

Babushkacatlady said:


> Anterior resorbed/moved up+posterior maintained or even slightly resorbed/moved up= Optimal and will lead to midface shortening, higher cheekbones, less round and well supported eyes. This is from that post on TGW, which would require a lot of upward mid facial compression from light forces:


SO how can I achieve this?


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## AscendingHero (Mar 15, 2021)

ovosoundszn said:


> Haha fuck that forum. I got banned from ovosoundszn for going off at progress,eddiemoney and harrykanemaxilla.
> 
> Seruously tho, you have no life if you recognized my Tgw alt and linked it to this.


JFL i got time on my hands, plus ik it was u immediately once u said something abt getting no results lmfao


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## ovosoundszn (Mar 15, 2021)

AscendingHero said:


> JFL i got time on my hands, plus ik it was u immediately once u said something abt getting no results lmfao


haha damn thats all I said over there was "no results". I was on auxillarys ass for a while, I kept calling him out for getting no results. Do you know what happened to that class 3 mf eddiemoney? He hasn't posted since i called him ugly af


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## AutisticBeaner (Mar 15, 2021)

@betamanlet @Babushkacatlady @antiantifa so just to be clear here, were you guys discussing about how to most efficiently reach the ideal or how the reach the ideal at all? correct tongue and body posture plus chewing should still do the trick if given enough time, right?


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## betamanlet (Mar 15, 2021)

AutisticBeaner said:


> @betamanlet @Babushkacatlady @antiantifa so just to be clear here, were you guys discussing about how to most efficiently reach the ideal or how the reach the ideal at all? correct tongue and body posture plus chewing should still do the trick if given enough time, right?


Both, as far as I am aware. It should, yes.


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## Deleted member 9670 (May 9, 2021)

22Bones said:


> Teeth in contact


I can keep incisors in contact but cant hard mew at the same time


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## PURE ARYAN GENETICS (May 27, 2021)

bumping epic thread for more.
are you actually supposed to wear your front teeth down by touching? I always assumed molars when people were saying teeth together  is that enough force? I know it's supposed to take weak forces I just don't see it happening idk. and biting down hard is probably very dumb. how exactly did that guy get 3mm overbite reduction in a month?
any new insights?
@antiantifa @Babushkacatlady @betamanlet


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## betamanlet (May 27, 2021)

PURE ARYAN GENETICS said:


> bumping epic thread for more.
> are you actually supposed to wear your front teeth down by touching? I always assumed molars when people were saying teeth together  is that enough force? I know it's supposed to take weak forces I just don't see it happening idk. and biting down hard is probably very dumb. how exactly did that guy get 3mm overbite reduction in a month?
> any new insights?
> @antiantifa @Babushkacatlady @betamanlet


From what understand the point is push the smooth/blunt sides of the front teeth against each other, not the tips. So turn your 10mm deepbite into 1-2mm overbite until that becomes the default occlusion:


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## PURE ARYAN GENETICS (May 27, 2021)

betamanlet said:


> From what understand the point is push the smooth/blunt sides of the front teeth against each other, not the tips. So turn your 10mm deepbite into 1-2mm overbite until that becomes the default occlusion:
> 
> View attachment 1152766


I have overbite and overjet tbh. not severe(masked with extraction) but the alveolar ridge is fucked, I'd really benefit from some of that counter movement you were talking about. can't really find smooth spots on my bottom incisors so I guess I'll have to use the tips


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## MAG27 (Mar 5, 2022)

Ok so how do I become chad from this what do I do?


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## eren1 (Sep 2, 2022)

Imagine making a giant thread citing different studies and sources….

JUST TO LOSE SOME SUBMENTAL FAT LMAOOOO


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