Brachymaxillic and Dolichomaxillic Maxillas

[thecel]

Long, narrow dental arcade = dolichomaxillic (ideal)
Short, wide dental arcade = brachymaxillic (subhuman)

You might think broad palates are better than narrow palates, and this is partially true. What most people call a narrow palate is a palate that's so narrow that the teeth are crowded. Widening such a palate brings the teeth to their natural positions. However, properly-grown, naturally-occurring narrow palates (which don't have tooth crowding) are more forward-grown than wide palates and therefore are more aesthetic.

 

[Deleted member 9699]

I'm forward-grown yet my palate is somewhat narrow. I believe it was 37mm.

Is this fine? No teeth crowding either. Weird though.

 

[Ocelot]

How? Forward growth results in the widening of the palate along with increased arch length. There is no such thing as a "naturally-occuring narrow palate." Some people might have smaller skulls and teeth and be fw grown so the IMW might be less, but it's more than it would've been were they recessed.

 

[thecel]

How? Forward growth results in the widening of the palate along with increased arch length. There is no such thing as a "naturally-occuring narrow palate." Some people might have smaller skulls and teeth and be fw grown so the IMW might be less, but it's more than it would've been were they recessed.

This theory pertains to genetic forward growth, not mewable forward growth. Yes, a properly mewed and chewed palate is both longer and wider than the palate of a mouth-breather. But when we compare palates that're maximized to their genetic potential, the more forward-grown ones will be the narrower ones.

 

[Ocelot]

This theory pertains to genetic forward growth, not environmental forward growth. When comparing palates that're maximized to their genetic potential, the more forward-grown ones will be the narrower ones.

im sorry bro but you have autism

what the fuck is genetic/environmental forward growth

forward growth is forward growth, regardless of whether it's caused by hormones or chewing forces. Forward grown palates are wider, because when the maxilla and jaw rotate together, they don't rotate along the sagittal plane solely, they effectively widen the palate (as well as increase arch length, obviously) when doing so, the facial bones have to be considered in 3d, not 2d

 

[Mrinfinityx]

im sorry bro but you have autism

what the fuck is genetic/environmental forward growth

forward growth is forward growth, regardless of whether it's caused by hormones or chewing forces. Forward grown palates are wider, because when the maxilla and jaw rotate together, they don't rotate along the sagittal plane solely, they effectively widen the palate (as well as increase arch length, obviously) when doing so, the facial bones have to be considered in 3d, not 2d

Nice thread and dude ur avatar with fat o pry is such lifefuel for fatcels like me btw, i must be honest and say it jfl

 

[thecel]

what the fuck is genetic/environmental forward growth

Environmental (mew ’n chew) forward growth:

Genetic forward growth:

forward growth is forward growth, regardless of whether it's caused by hormones or chewing forces. Forward grown palates are wider, because when the maxilla and jaw rotate together, they don't rotate along the sagittal plane solely, they effectively widen the palate (as well as increase arch length, obviously) when doing so

Yeah, that's because the palate started off narrower than it should be.

I'm talking about the kind of forward growth that's inherit to your genetics/pheno, not the kind caused by environmental factors during development or genetic abnormalities. For example, Asians have flatter and wider skulls than Caucasians. It's just the way it is, it's not because one race mewed and chewed more than the other.

the facial bones have to be considered in 3d, not 2d

When you stretch an object along its Z axis, its X and Y dimensions will shrink. Naturally-occurring, properly-developed forward-grown palates (due to genetics) are narrower than naturally-occurring, properly-developed flat palates almost all of the time.

 

[Ocelot]

Environmental (mew ’n chew) forward growth:
View attachment 869431

Genetic forward growth:
View attachment 869432

This shows genetic variance but it still doesn't make it two different types of forward growth. Yes, the CAUSE of fw growth is different, but it stays the same conceptually, ccw rotation of the maxilla, with the mandible following

When you stretch an object along its Z axis, its X and Y dimensions will shrink. Naturally-occurring, properly-developed forward-grown palates (due to genetics) are narrower than naturally-occurring, properly-developed flat palates almost all of the time.

We're not stretching anything though. It's not like one part of the mandible moves while the other is fixed, therefore narrowing the palate. The entire bone moves. The bones of a recessed person may often be the same size as that of someone with good forward growth, yet they look smaller due to their entire orientation in space.

When we have one person at 12 years old, and then, his maxilla and mandible rotate in response to hormones, the face from the frontal widens too, just like the palate. This is because, again, the maxilla and mandible can't be thought of as 2d. When they come forward, the gonions flare outward more, the ramus becomes visible from the frontal profile, the cheekbones become larger, because the space in between (including the palate) has widened.

Forward growth includes having a wider maxilla in general. Not necessarily because the bone itself has widened (even though this also occurs due to puberty, but even if it didn't, the palate and face would still widen), but because their orientation has changed.

 

[Gremblo]

Ideal caucasoid imw is 42 mm min.... Anything above that is just better but anything beyond 52 is obviously a looksmin

 

[thecel]

This shows genetic variance but it still doesn't make it two different types of forward growth. Yes, the CAUSE of fw growth is different, but it stays the same conceptually, ccw rotation of the maxilla, with the mandible following

They're actually a lot different.

Good development vs. bad development forward growth vs. recession:

Shape-related forward growth vs. recession (or projection vs. :

We're not stretching anything though.

My apologies for being shitty at communication. It's pretty hard to explain what I mean with the stretching thing. Like, I'm imagining an object (can be a skull or simply a rectangular prism) animating from a flattened shape to an elongated shape. And I am NOT saying that's how growth occurs. It's just interpolating between 2 extrema. It's analogous to animating a nose from Caucasoid to Negroid; as the nose stretches wider and wider, it also gets flatter and flatter to preserve volume.

When we have one person at 12 years old, and then, his maxilla and mandible rotate in response to hormones, the face from the frontal widens too, just like the palate. This is because, again, the maxilla and mandible can't be thought of as 2d. When they come forward, the gonions flare outward more, the ramus becomes visible from the frontal profile, the cheekbones become larger, because the space in between (including the palate) has widened.

Although forward growth is the term we use, what I'm referring to has nothing to do with the growing of the face that takes place from childhood to adulthood. The "theory" in the original post is really nothing more than conservation of area/volume applied to the dental arcade. The wider something is, the flatter it is, and the narrower something is, the longer it is.

 

[Ocelot]

They're actually a lot different.

Good development vs. bad development forward growth vs. recession:
View attachment 869467

Shape-related forward growth vs. recession (or projection vs. :
View attachment 869468

Ah, I see what you mean.

My apologies for being shitty at communication. It's pretty hard to explain what I mean with the stretching thing. Like, I'm imagining an object (can be a skull or simply a rectangular prism) animating from a flattened shape to an elongated shape. And I am NOT saying how growth occurs. It's just interpolating between 2 extrema. It's analogous to animating a nose from Caucasoid to Negroid; as the nose stretches wider and wider, it also gets flatter and flatter to preserve volume.
Although forward growth is the term we use, what I'm referring to has nothing to do with the growing of the face that takes place from childhood to adulthood. The "theory" in the original post is really nothing more than conservation of area/volume applied to the dental arcade. The wider something is, the flatter it is, and the narrower something is, the longer it is.

But why does it have to be conserved? This would kinda make sense in my mind if it was applied to one person.

So for example, at one point when your ramus can't get any longer, your jaw might adapt to chewing forces by a shortening of the chin to accomodate CCW rotation, rather than an elongation of a ramus. So this makes sense because it's on the same person.

But when you compare two different people, especially of two phenotypically very different ethnicities, I think a forward grown Asian, who, for sake of argument, has less "absolute" fw growth, so the length of the mandible is less than that of a Caucasian with ideal forward growth, I don't think we can apply this concept of the palate lengthening and in order to adapt to having more arch length in Caucasian

My main point summarised is that, for the same reason, phenotypic differences, we can say one ethnicity has a wider maxilla overall, so it can "accomodate" more forward growth. After all, it's just the bones moving into the position they're meant to be in. So the palate wouldn't have to lengthen, because the maxilla is already wide enough to accomodate a large arch.

My apologies for being shitty at communication.

Nah all good, same here, hard to articulate clearly what exactly one means when talking about topics like this.

 

[joseph]

Long, narrow dental arcade = dolichomaxillic (ideal)
Short, wide dental arcade = brachymaxillic (subhuman)

View attachment 869413

You might think broad palates are better than narrow palates, and this is partially true. What most people call a narrow palate is a palate that's so narrow that the teeth are crowded. Widening such a palate brings the teeth to their natural positions. However, properly-grown, naturally-occurring narrow palates (which don't have tooth crowding) are more forward-grown than wide palates and therefore are more aesthetic.

Anyway to fix the 2nd condition?