Can MSE with FM can give me CCW rotation (Maxillary upswing)

[Deleted member 5385]

I asked one orthodontist on YT about possibly upswing due to MSE and facemask, facebow.
He responded quite quickly.

And I don't what factors he was thinking about? Beside age, bone density etc. Still I think MSE+MSDO with facebow would be the best to achieve forward and upward growth even if it would take few years.

 

[Julian]

Omg just get a bimax or lefort 1 with CCW

 

[Deleted member 5385]

Omg just get a bimax or lefort 1 with CCW

Bimax with ccw don't change nose and under eye support.

 

[MentalistKebab]

Omg just get a bimax or lefort 1 with CCW

Srsly I dont understand face mask copers, even if it move your maxilla forward this time you will have an overbite and anything you do to correct occlusion will either set maxilla back or will need a bimax

 

[Julian]

Bimax with ccw don't change nose and under eye support.

Lol bimax includes moving the lower part of the maxilla forward your nose will look different. Yeah and of course not the undereye support this aint a lefort fucking 3

 

[tyronelite]

I could use CCW rotation, only problem is I have a perfect bite lol

 

[betamanlet]

View attachment 468968
And I don't what factors he was thinking about?

He means that CCW rotation does not exist. Change in cranial form occurs through growth, remodeling or expansion at several different sites. These changes together cause the soft tissue to give off the impression of maxillary rotation.

 

[Asetric]

No dude

CCW rotation is bone lengthening

not the actual thing u want

 

[Deleted member 3020]

Wow U got an answer from Richard ting.

 

[Deleted member 3020]

In theory pulling at a -30 degree force vector can give a CCW rotation, because the MSE is at the back of the maxilla and moving the back downward would move the front counterclockwise. Won moon said no one has ever reported a CCW rotation with MSE+FM though.

 

[Deleted member 3020]

Srsly I dont understand face mask copers, even if it move your maxilla forward this time you will have an overbite and anything you do to correct occlusion will either set maxilla back or will need a bimax

It doesn’t create an overbite, the mandible follows if it’s bone anchored. A CCW rotation would even make it better and more likely to move the mandible. Also I’m tired of arguing and thinking about this. I’m just gonna do it and solve this theory once in for all

 

[Deleted member 5385]

It doesn’t create an overbite, the mandible follows if it’s bone anchored. A CCW rotation would even make it better and more likely to move the mandible. Also I’m tired of arguing and thinking about this. I’m just gonna do it and solve this theory once in for all

You want to achieve CW or CCW rotation ?

 

[Bromose]

CCW is easy just hardmew jfl

 

[MentalistKebab]

It doesn’t create an overbite, the mandible follows if it’s bone anchored. A CCW rotation would even make it better and more likely to move the mandible. Also I’m tired of arguing and thinking about this. I’m just gonna do it and solve this theory once in for all

K bro. You are definitly gonna get 5mm forward growth with ccw rotation and mandible is gonna follow that.

It turns out double jaw surgery for functional reasons were unnecessary and doctors were just scamming their patients to make some bucks.

 

[Deleted member 3020]

K bro. You are definitly gonna get 5mm forward growth with ccw rotation and mandible is gonna follow that.

It turns out double jaw surgery for functional reasons were unnecessary and doctors were just scamming their patients to make some bucks.

No double jaw surgery is more efficient and mse+fm doesn’t work that fast for mature patients and no one is willing to wear a fm for over 2 years. Not everyone knows about mse+fm anyway. Why would there be a stopping limit for facepulling? It’s basically hardcore mewing but pulling instead of pushing.

 

[MentalistKebab]

No double jaw surgery is more efficient and mse+fm doesn’t work that fast for mature patients and no one is willing to wear a fm for over 2 years. Not everyone knows about mse+fm anyway. Why would there be a stopping limit for facepulling? It’s basically hardcore mewing but pulling instead of pushing.

What I am saying is, nothing is gonna pull your maxilla forward/upswing it except Leforts. Its pretty much pointless to add face mask to MSE if you are adult

 

[spark]

Srsly I dont understand face mask copers, even if it move your maxilla forward this time you will have an overbite and anything you do to correct occlusion will either set maxilla back or will need a bimax

You can always do IMDO or BSSO if your lower third is recessed. Lefort is shit, it doesn't affect upper maxilla.

 

[spark]

No double jaw surgery is more efficient and mse+fm doesn’t work that fast for mature patients and no one is willing to wear a fm for over 2 years. Not everyone knows about mse+fm anyway. Why would there be a stopping limit for facepulling? It’s basically hardcore mewing but pulling instead of pushing.

I am willing to wear it for 5000 hours no problem.

 

[spark]

In theory pulling at a -30 degree force vector can give a CCW rotation, because the MSE is at the back of the maxilla and moving the back downward would move the front counterclockwise. Won moon said no one has ever reported a CCW rotation with MSE+FM though.

brutal

 

[TheEndHasNoEnd]

In theory pulling at a -30 degree force vector can give a CCW rotation, because the MSE is at the back of the maxilla and moving the back downward would move the front counterclockwise. Won moon said no one has ever reported a CCW rotation with MSE+FM though.

its because the maxilla can only grow downwards and forwards, theres a reason why he didnt and a reason why all facemasks are angled downwards. what REALLY causes ccw rotation of the maxilla is the mandible, the ramus lengthens, rotates the mandible, and shifts the entire maxilla upwards.

 

[MentalistKebab]

You can always do IMDO or BSSO if your lower third is recessed. Lefort is shit, it doesn't affect upper maxilla.

Lefort 1 with ideal rotation is literally one of the biggest looksmax one can realisticly do.

Custom implants can cover the upper maxilla afterwards.

 

[spark]

Lefort 1 with ideal rotation is literally one of the biggest looksmax one can realisticly do.

Custom implants can cover the upper maxilla afterwards.

Why is it not possible to get anything out of the facemask as an adult? Even with the sutures loosened (through MSE) and prolonged usage. That is fucked up.

 

[MentalistKebab]

Why is it not possible to get anything out of the facemask as an adult? Even with the sutures loosened (through MSE) and prolonged usage. That is fucked up.

IIRC @Lorsss had writed at adults you could only get 1.7mm skeletal change after 1 year if facemask (14hr+ everyday).

This shit simply doesnt worth it.

 

[hairyballscel]

its because the maxilla can only grow downwards and forwards, theres a reason why he didnt and a reason why all facemasks are angled downwards. what REALLY causes ccw rotation of the maxilla is the mandible, the ramus lengthens, rotates the mandible, and shifts the entire maxilla upwards.

Please expand on this... How does one achieve CCW rotation?

 

[hairyballscel]

IIRC @Lorsss had writed at adults you could only get 1.7mm skeletal change after 1 year if facemask (14hr+ everyday).

This shit simply doesnt worth it.

there was a study where someone got 0.4mm a month, i don't remember it but it was posted here

 

[hairyballscel]

Srsly I dont understand face mask copers, even if it move your maxilla forward this time you will have an overbite and anything you do to correct occlusion will either set maxilla back or will need a bimax

How would you get an overbite?? If your jaw follows that shouldn't be a problem no?

 

[hairyballscel]

No double jaw surgery is more efficient and mse+fm doesn’t work that fast for mature patients and no one is willing to wear a fm for over 2 years. Not everyone knows about mse+fm anyway. Why would there be a stopping limit for facepulling? It’s basically hardcore mewing but pulling instead of pushing.

Is there a difference with pulling and pushing? Im designing a facepuller which acts as a tongue, so it doesn't really pull, moreso push

 

[spark]

IIRC @Lorsss had writed at adults you could only get 1.7mm skeletal change after 1 year if facemask (14hr+ everyday).

This shit simply doesnt worth it.

apparently it wasn't hooked up to MSE

She was also expanding for only 4 months:

 

[hairyballscel]

apparently it wasn't hooked up to MSE
View attachment 476724

She was also expanding for only 4 months:
View attachment 476725

this shit is lifefuel

 

[TheEndHasNoEnd]

Please expand on this... How does one achieve CCW rotation?

chew chew chew, prefferably on pre molars

 

[hairyballscel]

chew chew chew, prefferably on pre molars

Why premolars? Should we chew more on posterior or anterior teeth?

 

[Deleted member 5349]

I too once coped with MSE+facemask. Just gonna get an infraorbital rim implant and I’ll ascend just as hard. Fasemask has to be worn for like 6 months for any noticable results

 

[Deleted member 5385]

I too once coped with MSE+facemask. Just gonna get an infraorbital rim implant and I’ll ascend just as hard. Fasemask has to be worn for like 6 months for any noticable results

So you gave up on MSE+FM ?

 

[Lorsss]

Please expand on this... How does one achieve CCW rotation?

17 months of maxillary protraction (facemask) with downward angle lead to 2mm of clockwise rotation.

Dentists don't pull if a upward angle, but if they did they would obtain a CCW rotation

 

[hairyballscel]

17 months of maxillary protraction (facemask) with downward angle lead to 2mm of clockwise rotation.

Dentists don't pull if a upward angle, but if they did they would obtain a CCW rotation

17 months? Isn’t it 4 months?

 

[spark]

17 months of maxillary protraction (facemask) with downward angle lead to 2mm of clockwise rotation.

Dentists don't pull if a upward angle, but if they did they would obtain a CCW rotation

So you don't agree with this idea then?

 

[Deleted member 3020]

“Lastly, Post-MI-FM [−30°], simulating intermaxillary elastics to micro-implants, mainly translates the maxilla forward, with very slight upward tipping of the anterior region. Of all the simulations, Post-MI-FM [−30°] most closely resembles pure anterior protraction of the maxilla and would benefit class III patients with severe mid-facial deficiency. This suggests that a 30° vector for intermaxillary class III elastics between micro-implants is most effective in promoting the anterior growth of maxilla.”
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4456601/

 

[000]

Srsly I dont understand face mask copers, even if it move your maxilla forward this time you will have an overbite and anything you do to correct occlusion will either set maxilla back or will need a bimax

Not if you keep your teeth together right?