Fierce 5 vs Ice Cream Fitness 5x5

[Yummyinmytummy]

What’s better or are they just the same.

 

[elfmaxx]

look at jason blahas physique and tell me that you don't want to look like that

 

[CupOfCoffee]

look at jason blahas physique and tell me that you don't want to look like that

That's a terrible argument.

 

[Deleted member 1553]

look at jason blahas physique and tell me that you don't want to look like that

 

[Soulsmaxx]

look at jason blahas physique and tell me that you don't want to look like that

Hell yeah, just like an action hero

 

[Yummyinmytummy]

That's a terrible argument.

What u think, icf or fierce 5?

 

[Deliverance]

ICF 5x5 has no side and rear deltoid isolation. Don't do that routine. What is fierce 5?

 

[Yummyinmytummy]

ICF 5x5 has no side and rear deltoid isolation. Don't do that routine. What is fierce 5?

It’s also a 5x5. They’re both beginner programs and they were the most recommended so I figured some people on this site would know.

 

[CupOfCoffee]

What u think, icf or fierce 5?

Idk what fierce 5 is. But ICF 5x5 is an excellent program for beginners if followed correctly

 

[Deliverance]

It’s also a 5x5. They’re both beginner programs and they were the most recommended so I figured some people on this site would know.

I don't recommend either. 5 rep sets are not ideal for muscle growth. You need to approach failure and push the muscle to it's limit.

I did SS when I started lifting and pissed away my time and ended up looking like an imbalanced shitsack with tiny delts, chest, and big thick quads.

 

[Yummyinmytummy]

I don't recommend either. 5 rep sets are not ideal for muscle growth. You need to approach failure and push the muscle to it's limit.

I did SS when I started lifting and pissed away my time and ended up looking like an imbalanced shitsack with tiny delts, chest, and big thick quads.

So what would u recommend for a beginner like me

 

[Deliverance]

It's hard to recommend a specific routine. If I could start over, I'd do something like a linear Push Pull Legs program. Anyone that you find online that has a progression system (for you as a beginner a linear one) and includes direct isolation exercises for every upper body muscle and the calve muscles is a good one.

Remember this, when you're trying to look good, the only required exercise is a lateral raise. Everything else is replaceable.

 

[CupOfCoffee]

I don't recommend either. 5 rep sets are not ideal for muscle growth. You need to approach failure and push the muscle to it's limit.

If volume is high (which it is if you're doing 5 sets of 5) then it is ideal for muscle growth.

 

[Deliverance]

If volume is high (which it is if you're doing 5 sets of 5) then it is ideal for muscle growth.

First we need to establish a baseline for what muscles we care about. What muscles are the most important? In my mind, the deltoids, the upper chest, the entire upper back musculature, the neck, arms, core, and calves. Not necessarily in that order.

Problems with ICF 5x5 from my perspective:

ICF 5x5 has no direct side and rear deltoid isolation. At most you'll be overhead pressing 10 sets a week. Great for your front delts, not so much for the side and rear delts.

ICF 5x5 has no direct calf isolation.

ICF 5x5 has no direct upper chest work. And no, overhead presses don't build your upper chest very much, Jason is talking out of his ass on that.

ICF 5x5 only has nine sets of direct bicep work per week. I only consider supinated or hammer type grip movements to be bicep work. Pronation of the wrists like on barbell rows doesn't work the biceps as much.

ICF 5x5 only has you doing shrugs in Workout A, so at best you'll be doing 6 direct sets for your traps in a week, and 3 in others. Not ideal.

ICF 5x5 has no direct neck work.

There's also no direct hamstring work on the routine if I remember correctly. That's no bueno. If you want the muscle to grow to it's greatest potential, you must work it to or near failure and progressively overload.

I don't think 5 or 10 sets of overhead work per week is high volume. The only thing that's high volume on ICF 5x5 is the squatting and rowing, but squats make you look like a freak at 15 sets per week and rows are inferior to chin-ups because they don't work the biceps as much and they are limited by your lower back.

 

[CupOfCoffee]

the deltoids, the upper chest, the entire upper back musculature, the neck, arms, core, and calves.

I agree with this.

ICF 5x5 has no direct side and rear deltoid isolation. At most you'll be overhead pressing 10 sets a week. Great for your front delts, not so much for the side and rear delts.

This is true. In the ICF 2.0 he does include face pulls as a main movement though.

ICF 5x5 has no direct calf isolation.

Again yeah it would be more ideal to include one calf raise.

ICF 5x5 has no direct upper chest work. And no, overhead presses don't build your upper chest very much, Jason is talking out of his ass on that.

What do you mean by "direct"? The combination of flat bench and overhead presses should absolutely hammer the upper chest...

ICF 5x5 only has nine sets of direct bicep work per week. I only consider supinated or hammer type grip movements to be bicep work. Pronation of the wrists like on barbell rows doesn't work the biceps as much.

It isn't only about direct work, it's a splashover effect from multiple movements for a weak novice that will get them to grow. For naturals, stimulating growth 2 or 3 times a week is ideal, why would biceps be any different lol. 3 sets 3 times per week with progressive overload. Give me a break.

ICF 5x5 only has you doing shrugs in Workout A, so at best you'll be doing 6 direct sets for your traps in a week, and 3 in others. Not ideal.

Large traps are NOT ideal for aesthetics anyway.

ICF 5x5 has no direct neck work.

Basically no good programs have neck work. Though I would do it tbh

Bottom line is that for a weak novice it gets you big and strong faster than most other programs out there. If the trainee stays relatively lean then the muscular development will look quite impressive, not so much if they're fluffy.

 

[Deliverance]

I agree with this.


This is true. In the ICF 2.0 he does include face pulls as a main movement though.


Again yeah it would be more ideal to include one calf raise.


What do you mean by "direct"? The combination of flat bench and overhead presses should absolutely hammer the upper chest...


It isn't only about direct work, it's a splashover effect from multiple movements for a weak novice that will get them to grow. For naturals, stimulating growth 2 or 3 times a week is ideal, why would biceps be any different lol. 3 sets 3 times per week with progressive overload. Give me a break.

Large traps are NOT ideal for aesthetics anyway.


Basically no good programs have neck work. Though I would do it tbh

Bottom line is that for a weak novice it gets you big and strong faster than most other programs out there. If the trainee stays relatively lean then the muscular development will look quite impressive, not so much if they're fluffy.

Thanks for the reply. I was completely unaware there was a 2.0 version.

I'll agree to the upper chest point.

I'll agree to the biceps point. Assuming that the person isn't half-assing their barbell curls and really pushing it.

I don't think large traps are ideal either. But they are important to be developed. Do you think 3-6 sets per week is really enough to push them into growth? I understand overhead pressing works the traps but I just don't think it's as effective at building traps as a shrug. EMG studies aren't the end all be all in my opinion. I know you didn't mention EMG but Jason goes on and on and on about how overhead pressing works your traps according to EMG research.

I agree with your bottom line, ICF 5x5 will get a fresh guy big and strong relative to where he started, 100 percent. But I think there are some adjustments that could be made to it to make it more tailored for a "looksmaxxing" purpose, so to speak. I would like to see lateral raises and some kind of knee flexion exercise in there. I don't think 1-2 sets of 5 on deadlifts will maximize hamstring development. Quads are important but is 15 sets really needed? Especially with how taxing that can be as you get stronger and progress. And then of course the adjustments that we agreed to like calf work and neck work.

 

[CupOfCoffee]

I don't think large traps are ideal either. But they are important to be developed. Do you think 3-6 sets per week is really enough to push them into growth? I understand overhead pressing works the traps but I just don't think it's as effective at building traps as a shrug. EMG studies aren't the end all be all in my opinion. I know you didn't mention EMG but Jason goes on and on and on about how overhead pressing works your traps according to EMG research.

Combination of deadlifts, rows, shrugs, face pulls, overhead press will all stimulate the traps. It's actually too much for optimal aesthetics. I personally don't think recreational lifters should conventional deadlift heavy anyways, but I didn't design the program. If I could go back in time that would be the one thing I'd not do...

I agree with your bottom line, ICF 5x5 will get a fresh guy big and strong relative to where he started, 100 percent. But I think there are some adjustments that could be made to it to make it more tailored for a "looksmaxxing" purpose, so to speak. I would like to see lateral raises and some kind of knee flexion exercise in there. I don't think 1-2 sets of 5 on deadlifts will maximize hamstring development. Quads are important but is 15 sets really needed? Especially with how taxing that can be as you get stronger and progress. And then of course the adjustments that we agreed to like calf work and neck work.

Yeah if I could make my own variation of the program I would put romanian deadlifts instead, cut down the squat volume, and add in neck training, calf training, side laterals.

 

[Deliverance]

Combination of deadlifts, rows, shrugs, face pulls, overhead press will all stimulate the traps. It's actually too much for optimal aesthetics. I personally don't think recreational lifters should conventional deadlift heavy anyways, but I didn't design the program. If I could go back in time that would be the one thing I'd not do...


Yeah if I could make my own variation of the program I would put romanian deadlifts instead, cut down the squat volume, and add in neck training, calf training, side laterals.

Agree completely with everything. Why wouldn't you conventional deadlift? Did you get injured? Curious on that.

 

[CupOfCoffee]

Agree completely with everything. Why wouldn't you conventional deadlift? Did you get injured? Curious on that.

Yes but after finishing the program. Was testing my max on deadlifts (it was 445), kept trying to go 100%, next week I had lower back pain. Out of ignorance I decided to leg press instead of squat and then it snapped...

 

[Deliverance]

Yes but after finishing the program. Was testing my max on deadlifts (it was 445), kept trying to go 100%, next week I had lower back pain. Out of ignorance I decided to leg press instead of squat and then it snapped...

That's a bummer. I hope you recovered fast and aren't plagued by it today. I know lower back issues can be a real bitch. It's been great talking to you.

 

[elfmaxx]

That's a terrible argument.

It's a joke argument.

I thought this pic was lost in the house fire.

 

[kobecel]

look at jason blahas physique and tell me that you don't want to look like that