Germancels, what do you think about the Stab-in-the-back theory?

P

Prettyboy

Banned
Joined
Jul 5, 2021
Posts
10,989
Reputation
36,249
The stab-in-the-back myth (German: Dolchstoßlegende, pronounced [ˈdɔlçʃtoːsleˌɡɛndə](listen), lit. 'dagger-stab legend')[a] was an antisemitic conspiracy theory that was widely believed and promulgated in Germany after 1918. It maintained that the Imperial German Army did not lose World War I on the battlefield, but was instead betrayed by certain citizens on the home front—especially Jews, revolutionary socialists who fomented strikes and labor unrest,[1] and other republican politicians who had overthrown the House of Hohenzollern in the German Revolution of 1918–1919. Advocates of the myth denounced the German government leaders who had signed the Armistice of 11 November 1918 as the "November criminals" (Novemberverbrecher).

When Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party rose to power in 1933, they made the conspiracy theory an integral part of their official history of the 1920s, portraying the Weimar Republic as the work of the "November criminals" who had "stabbed the nation in the back" in order to seize power. Nazi propaganda depicted Weimar Germany as "a morass of corruption, degeneracy, national humiliation, ruthless persecution of the honest 'national opposition'—fourteen years of rule by Jews, Marxists, and 'cultural Bolsheviks', who had at last been swept away by the National Socialist movement under Hitler and the victory of the 'national revolution' of 1933".[2]

Historians inside and outside of Germanyunanimously reject the myth, pointing out that the Imperial German Army was out of reserves, was being overwhelmed by the entrance of the United States into the war, and had already lost the war militarily by late 1918.[3][4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stab-in-the-back_myth

58EED50D 03EC 4A85 BBA8 C4DB9BD21C70


Was the backstab true or was it just an antisemitic schizo theory of Hitler?

tagging Germancels who know more about their country’s history:
@Beastimmung @germanlooks @Need2Ascend @eyes @Enfant terrible

tagging influential historians:
@TsarTsar444 @cloUder
 
  • +1
  • JFL
  • Woah
Reactions: Eduardo DOV, galego123, Elvisandreaa and 7 others
Not really true, Germany was done for when the US entered the war. It's true that the US in ww1 wasn't the same behemoth like ww2 but they could have dragged the war on forever, they were a rising nation, while Germany relied on imports from the atlantic and since the US entered the war it was GG for the Central Powers.

Also Ottomans at begging of 1918 months before the truce was signed were completely pushed back to Anatolia and Bulgaria also collapsed in the 1918 summer on the Macedonian front. That would leave only Germany and Austro Hungary fighting againts France, Italy, USA and Britain that had way more resources and manpower
 
  • +1
  • JFL
Reactions: Thecovenant, Danish_Retard, Elvisandreaa and 2 others
Not really true, Germany was done for when the US entered the war. It's true that the US in ww1 wasn't the same behemoth like ww2 but they could have dragged the war on forever, they were a rising nation, while Germany relied on imports from the atlantic and since the US entered the war it was GG for the Central Powers.

Also Ottomans at begging of 1918 months before the truce was signed were completely pushed back to Anatolia and Bulgaria also collapsed in the 1918 summer on the Macedonian front. That would leave only Germany and Austro Hungary fighting againts France, Italy, USA and Britain that had way more resources and manpower
I think so too about the overall end results, by 1918 it was already decided by economical factors the Central Powers will crumble soon, I don’t think internal movements really mattered at that point.

However I’m not so sure about the subsequent German revolution of 1918-19. It seems to show quite a bit of similarities to those of the Soviet revolutions in Russia in 1917 and the one in the disintegrating Dual Monarchy in 1919; in both of which Jewish leaders were very massively overrepresented - although I’m not sure whether that is merely because they were overrepresented in intelligentsia or they had ulterior motives against their countries traditions and way of life
 
  • +1
Reactions: Deleted member 2729, Lmao and TsarTsar444
I think so too about the overall end results, by 1918 it was already decided by economical factors the Central Powers will crumble soon, I don’t think internal movements really mattered at that point.

However I’m not so sure about the subsequent German revolution of 1918-19. It seems to show quite a bit of similarities to those of the Soviet revolutions in Russia in 1917 and the one in the disintegrating Dual Monarchy in 1919; in both of which Jewish leaders were very massively overrepresented - although I’m not sure whether that is merely because they were overrepresented in intelligentsia or they had ulterior motives against their countries traditions and way of life
The dual monarchy was toast after the first world war, the best that could have happened was a less severe trianon.
 
  • +1
Reactions: Prettyboy
The dual monarchy was toast after the first world war, the best that could have happened was a less severe trianon.
The fate of the Dual Monarchy was likely sealed in 1867 when the Austro-Hungarian compromise failed to make a deal with other ethnicities (aside from Croats in 1868).

I doubt even the proposals of federalisation in the early 1900s could have saved the empire; once romanticism brought national consciousness to Central Europe in the middle of the 19th century, it was over
 
  • +1
Reactions: Deleted member 14262, Lmao and Moggie
The fate of the Dual Monarchy was likely sealed in 1867 when the Austro-Hungarian compromise failed to make a deal with other ethnicities (aside from Croats in 1868).

I doubt even the proposals of federalisation in the early 1900s could have saved the empire; once romanticism brought national consciousness to Central Europe in the middle of the 19th century, it was over
Could Trialism have worked at all?

3m9vrm86kpe71.jpg


It's over when this sort of thing is suggested

Karl_v._Habsburg_5_Kingdoms-Oct.16_1918.png
 
Last edited:
  • +1
Reactions: Prettyboy
The fate of the Dual Monarchy was likely sealed in 1867 when the Austro-Hungarian compromise failed to make a deal with other ethnicities (aside from Croats in 1868).

I doubt even the proposals of federalisation in the early 1900s could have saved the empire; once romanticism brought national consciousness to Central Europe in the middle of the 19th century, it was over
I don't believe this, it's a myth spread by the allies post 1918 that the dual monarchy would disintegrate anyways. In reality Austria, Croatia, Slovenia, Bosnia and Hungary were fully in support of keeping the state, then we have the Czechs, Slovaks, Ruthenians, Romanians, Serbs, Italians who didn't really like the nation, but when you look into it, only thee Czech had some power to put pressure on the crown to give them full recognition like Hungary and Croatia, the rest that i mentioned were minorities living in the most underdeveloped parts of the empire, compromising like 25% of the whole state together. These minorities would never be able to destroy the country from within in such meme numbers
 
  • +1
Reactions: Deleted member 14262, Lmao and Prettyboy
I don't believe this, it's a myth spread by the allies post 1918 that the dual monarchy would disintegrate anyways. In reality Austria, Croatia, Slovenia, Bosnia and Hungary were fully in support of keeping the state, then we have the Czechs, Slovaks, Ruthenians, Romanians, Serbs, Italians who didn't really like the nation, but when you look into it, only thee Czech had some power to put pressure on the crown to give them full recognition like Hungary and Croatia, the rest that i mentioned were minorities living in the most underdeveloped parts of the empire, compromising like 25% of the whole state together. These minorities would never be able to destroy the country from within in such meme numbers
Wasn't there also rapid Magyarisation going on in the lands of the Hungarian crown prior to the first world war?
 
  • +1
Reactions: TsarTsar444
Wasn't there also a rapid Magyarisation going on in the lands of the Hungarian crown prior to the first world war?
Not sure about this, doubt its true tbh
 
  • +1
Reactions: Moggie
Could Trialism have worked at all?

3m9vrm86kpe71.jpg
I don’t think so, no in it’s historical context. After compromising with Austria in 1867, Hungary did compromise with Croatia in 1868, granting it independence in their internal issues and only tying the two kingdoms together in external affairs -

138584B0 C0F7 4F93 A650 F7D1ABFC104B


because of this, a trialist state that would have been made upon a compromise of Germans, Hungarians and Croats wouldn’t have made a difference in my opinion. Czechs, Slovakians, Ukrainians / Ruthenians , Poles, Romanians and Serbs would have been still left unsatisfied.

Maybe trialism could have worked if it would’ve meant equality between Germans, Hungarians and all Slavs; but neither Germans nor Hungarians were keen on making Slavs as their equals

00B4CB57 402B 4079 B339 F3F2D74782DC
 
Last edited:
  • +1
Reactions: Deleted member 14262, Lmao and Moggie
German planners failed as they overestimated the ability of the Russian Empire and underestimated the French Republic.
 
  • +1
Reactions: Deleted member 14262
I don’t think so, no in it’s historical context. After compromising with Austria in 1867, Hungary did compromise with Croatia in 1868, granting it independence in their internal issues and only tying the two kingdoms together in external affairs -

View attachment 1816723

because of this, a trialist state that would have been made upon a compromise of Germans, Hungarians and Croats wouldn’t have made a difference in my opinion. Czechs, Slovakians, Ukrainians / Ruthenians , Poles, Romanians and Serbs would have been still left unsatisfied.

Maybe trialism could have worked if it would’ve meant equality between Germans, Hungarians and all Slavs; but neither Germans nor Hungarians were keen on making Slavs as their equals

View attachment 1816720
I really don't understan why the Czech didn't get complete equal right like Croatia. The Czech lands were the most developed together with Austria in the whole Empire and they were bigger in total population then Croatians
 
  • +1
Reactions: Prettyboy
I really don't understan why the Czech didn't get complete equal right like Croatia. The Czech lands were the most developed together with Austria in the whole Empire and they were bigger in total population then Croatians
I changed my mind, the issue with Bohemia in particular and Moravia to a lesser extent is that these were industrialised lands that the Habsburg crown would not want to lose and wanted to keep tight control over.
 
Last edited:
  • +1
Reactions: Prettyboy
Hmm I could see a prinicpality of Bohemia being created in the mould of Wales for example meaning a state still heavily connected to the Habsburg monarchs but not equal status with Austria or Hungary.
But it doesn't make much sense, Czechia was economically, populationally, culturally more advanced then Croatia, so why didn't they get the same equal treatment like Croatia?
 
  • +1
Reactions: Moggie
I don't believe this, it's a myth spread by the allies post 1918 that the dual monarchy would disintegrate anyways. In reality Austria, Croatia, Slovenia, Bosnia and Hungary were fully in support of keeping the state, then we have the Czechs, Slovaks, Ruthenians, Romanians, Serbs, Italians who didn't really like the nation, but when you look into it, only thee Czech had some power to put pressure on the crown to give them full recognition like Hungary and Croatia, the rest that i mentioned were minorities living in the most underdeveloped parts of the empire, compromising like 25% of the whole state together. These minorities would never be able to destroy the country from within in such meme numbers
To be frank most minorities didn’t even had their own nobility. The Croats were the exception

I really don't understan why the Czech didn't get complete equal right like Croatia. The Czech lands were the most developed together with Austria in the whole Empire and they were bigger in total population then Croatians
Bohemia and Moravia was always very rich because of developed industry, I guess they got stuck between the Habsburg monarchy and the Germans; before being a part of the Austrian Empire, it was a part of the Holy Roman Empire as a kingdom, they never really got their independence before the forming of Czechoslovakia after WW1
 
  • +1
Reactions: Moggie
But it doesn't make much sense, Czechia was economically, populationally, culturally more advanced then Croatia, so why didn't they get the same equal treatment like Croatia?
Franz Joseph did not seem to want it, different outcome to 1848 is required.
 
The stab-in-the-back myth (German: Dolchstoßlegende, pronounced [ˈdɔlçʃtoːsleˌɡɛndə](listen), lit. 'dagger-stab legend')[a] was an antisemitic conspiracy theory that was widely believed and promulgated in Germany after 1918. It maintained that the Imperial German Army did not lose World War I on the battlefield, but was instead betrayed by certain citizens on the home front—especially Jews, revolutionary socialists who fomented strikes and labor unrest,[1] and other republican politicians who had overthrown the House of Hohenzollern in the German Revolution of 1918–1919. Advocates of the myth denounced the German government leaders who had signed the Armistice of 11 November 1918 as the "November criminals" (Novemberverbrecher).

When Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party rose to power in 1933, they made the conspiracy theory an integral part of their official history of the 1920s, portraying the Weimar Republic as the work of the "November criminals" who had "stabbed the nation in the back" in order to seize power. Nazi propaganda depicted Weimar Germany as "a morass of corruption, degeneracy, national humiliation, ruthless persecution of the honest 'national opposition'—fourteen years of rule by Jews, Marxists, and 'cultural Bolsheviks', who had at last been swept away by the National Socialist movement under Hitler and the victory of the 'national revolution' of 1933".[2]

Historians inside and outside of Germanyunanimously reject the myth, pointing out that the Imperial German Army was out of reserves, was being overwhelmed by the entrance of the United States into the war, and had already lost the war militarily by late 1918.[3][4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stab-in-the-back_myth

View attachment 1816674

Was the backstab true or was it just an antisemitic schizo theory of Hitler?

tagging Germancels who know more about their country’s history:
@Beastimmung @germanlooks @Need2Ascend @eyes @Enfant terrible

tagging influential historians:
@TsarTsar444 @cloUder

some times I wonder how the world would be like if the Germans won ww1

bcs that war simply define who would be the world power of the 20th century
 
  • +1
Reactions: Prettyboy
some times I wonder how the world would be like if the Germans won ww1
Central Powers didn’t really hold a chance against the Entente, considering the United States’ economic power and the English / French colonial empires resources

bcs that war simply define who would be the world power of the 20th century
But maybe if they’ve won, Germany perhaps would have demanded similarly harsh conditions against the Entente as it did in the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk against Russia in 1917
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Brest-Litovsk
BD21D190 D581 461F B555 FF14EE491FE0
 
  • Woah
  • +1
Reactions: Moggie and Deleted member 17791
Central Powers didn’t really hold a chance against the Entente, considering the United States’ economic power and the English / French colonial empires resources
Honestly I think they could've have chance if they didn't fucked it up with the U.S in the Zimmerman telegram

I think there was 2 separate occasions that Germans where about to get Paris
But maybe if they’ve won, Germany perhaps would have demanded similarly harsh conditions against the Entente as it did in the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk with Russia in 1917
Yeah I think they would be far more harder to the Russians than the French since they saw the more as a threat
 
  • Woah
Reactions: Prettyboy
I learned about this shit in school, but never a thing about the first world war.
 
  • JFL
Reactions: Deleted member 17791
Historians inside and outside of Germanyunanimously reject the myth, pointing out that the Imperial German Army was out of reserves, was being overwhelmed by the entrance of the United States into the war, and had already lost the war militarily by late 1918.[3][4]
Not one allied boot managed to touch German soil during ww1.

Germany had already beaten Russia and secured Ukraine and poland. They could have extracted wheat from Ukraine.
 
  • Woah
  • +1
Reactions: Prettyboy and TsarTsar444
I learned about this shit in school, but never a thing about the first world war.
ww1 was a mess, the most brutal war for solders ever.
 
Lmao Germancels were some of the biggest copers in ww1. After 4 years of grinding bloodshed on the western front facing two big powers and their colonies, German society was in utter collapse with millions of its citizens starving and in unrest and the German army was bled white and its commanders knew it and sued for peace before the German line would eventually collapse and the allied armies marched into the German heartland.
 
  • +1
Reactions: Moggie and Deleted member 16369
History was one of my worst subjects in school. You know probably more about germanys history than me as a german not gonna lie
 
  • +1
Reactions: Deleted member 14262
History was one of my worst subjects in school. You know probably more about germanys history than me as a german not gonna lie
Why, history is fun, the way many teachers presebt history in school can be boring, but look at some of these vids for example, they are incredibly interesting, the way the narator explains stuff sounds organic and like a story, not just souless numbers, documents and names
 
  • +1
  • Love it
Reactions: Deleted member 2729, Moggie, Deleted member 14262 and 2 others
cant trust a germany spaghetticel

europeans and italians are ok

germany women are submissive and like foreign cock
 
Why, history is fun, the way many teachers presebt history in school can be boring, but look at some of these vids for example, they are incredibly interesting, the way the narator explains stuff sounds organic and like a story, not just souless numbers, documents and names

Jfl at how England got cucked by the US into submission during the Suez crisis, truly an end of an empire. Now the only colonial posessions they have is Love Island
 
  • JFL
  • So Sad
Reactions: Moggie, House Lannister, Deleted member 14262 and 3 others
Not really true, Germany was done for when the US entered the war. It's true that the US in ww1 wasn't the same behemoth like ww2 but they could have dragged the war on forever, they were a rising nation, while Germany relied on imports from the atlantic and since the US entered the war it was GG for the Central Powers.

Also Ottomans at begging of 1918 months before the truce was signed were completely pushed back to Anatolia and Bulgaria also collapsed in the 1918 summer on the Macedonian front. That would leave only Germany and Austro Hungary fighting againts France, Italy, USA and Britain that had way more resources and manpower
The US only entered the war because of the Balfour Declaration in 1917, though.
This does lend credence to a Jewish 'stab in the back' theory since international Jewry (most likely an element of international Jewry in Germany as well) would have to congregate together to make such a deal happen.

Also, Germany was still winning the war in 1917, having been helped by the fact that the Eastern front had ceased to exist at this point because of turmoil in the Russian Empire.
 
  • +1
Reactions: Deleted member 2729 and Toth's thot
another normal post from NTking Prettyboy
 
  • JFL
Reactions: Deleted member 16369
The stab-in-the-back myth (German: Dolchstoßlegende, pronounced [ˈdɔlçʃtoːsleˌɡɛndə](listen), lit. 'dagger-stab legend')[a] was an antisemitic conspiracy theory that was widely believed and promulgated in Germany after 1918. It maintained that the Imperial German Army did not lose World War I on the battlefield, but was instead betrayed by certain citizens on the home front—especially Jews, revolutionary socialists who fomented strikes and labor unrest,[1] and other republican politicians who had overthrown the House of Hohenzollern in the German Revolution of 1918–1919. Advocates of the myth denounced the German government leaders who had signed the Armistice of 11 November 1918 as the "November criminals" (Novemberverbrecher).

When Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party rose to power in 1933, they made the conspiracy theory an integral part of their official history of the 1920s, portraying the Weimar Republic as the work of the "November criminals" who had "stabbed the nation in the back" in order to seize power. Nazi propaganda depicted Weimar Germany as "a morass of corruption, degeneracy, national humiliation, ruthless persecution of the honest 'national opposition'—fourteen years of rule by Jews, Marxists, and 'cultural Bolsheviks', who had at last been swept away by the National Socialist movement under Hitler and the victory of the 'national revolution' of 1933".[2]

Historians inside and outside of Germanyunanimously reject the myth, pointing out that the Imperial German Army was out of reserves, was being overwhelmed by the entrance of the United States into the war, and had already lost the war militarily by late 1918.[3][4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stab-in-the-back_myth

View attachment 1816674

Was the backstab true or was it just an antisemitic schizo theory of Hitler?

tagging Germancels who know more about their country’s history:
@Beastimmung @germanlooks @Need2Ascend @eyes @Enfant terrible

tagging influential historians:
@TsarTsar444 @cloUder
I mean look at any history about weimar republic you would know its true
 
Pretty nonsense one
Weimar republic were the ones who invented the myth in the first place
Look up 1910 breaking treaty of versailles by weimar republic
That happened before nazis took power
One more intresting fact
Hitler was 1/4th jewish
 
Why, history is fun, the way many teachers presebt history in school can be boring, but look at some of these vids for example, they are incredibly interesting, the way the narator explains stuff sounds organic and like a story, not just souless numbers, documents and names

It really interests me 0 percent for some reason, docus and such. my interests always revolved around sports, music and practical knowledge
 
  • +1
Reactions: TsarTsar444
It really interests me 0 percent for some reason, docus and such. my interests always revolved around sports, music and practical knowledge
I like almost everything except for math
 
  • Hmm...
Reactions: Need2Ascend
Math was best after sports in school... do you go to university?
Well last time i had math was at 16, i went to a medical vocational high school for nurses (we only had math in the first year out of 4 years in total), and then went to medical school at 19 and there is no math here, mostly organic and biochemistry subjects in first 2 years of med school
 
  • +1
Reactions: Need2Ascend
Whole lotta cope

Long live Rosa Luxemburg
 
  • Hmm...
Reactions: Prettyboy
Not one allied boot managed to touch German soil during ww1.
German society was on the brink of collapse, it was futile.
Germany had already beaten Russia and secured Ukraine and poland. They could have extracted wheat from Ukraine.
Didn't matter the Ottomans had been defeated and Austria-Hungary was in disarray it was only a matter of time and the Germans thought it would be better to secure peace so they could prevent a revolution at home and lick their wounds, ultimately the big target for the war in the first place was Russia, Germany was worried that Russia would grow too powerful, of course the rivalry with Britain and the French desire for revenge were important aswell, it is just people underestimate the German fear that Russia would become a behemoth once it industrialised and take over Central Europe.
 
Also, Germany was still winning the war in 1917, having been helped by the fact that the Eastern front had ceased to exist at this point because of turmoil in the Russian Empire.
The Germans would not truly win the war until they could capitulate France, despite the French mutinies which were understandable the French fought with great determination in the First World War. Also, this was when more of the British colonial forces were pouring into the Western frount, in 1918 the British were able to move forces that would have been going to deal with the Ottomans to europe, Australians, Canadians, New Zealanders and Indians. I think the Entente would have won without American intervention anyway but it would have taken an additional 6 months or so.
 
I'm not a German, but I do know a lot about history post-Congress of Vienna to the end of WW1. If you'd like me to respond, I can.
 
  • +1
Reactions: Prettyboy
I'm not a German, but I do know a lot about history post-Congress of Vienna to the end of WW1. If you'd like me to respond, I can.
Do you think Franz Joseph had a real chance of uniting Germany under his leadership? Or was it already a lost cause even before the battle of Königgrätz in 1866?
 
  • Hmm...
  • +1
Reactions: Deleted member 2729 and Deleted member 14262
Do you think Franz Joseph had a real chance of uniting Germany under his leadership? Or was it already a lost cause even before the battle of Königgrätz in 1866?
Austria at this time had neither the manpower nor equipment to effectively over the entirety of Germany plus the Austro-Hungarian provinces. There was a reason he had lost the war after all, Even if he did, Austria was quite Agrarian and lacked the Industrial base to make Germany the economic powerhouse it is today, and other powers would certainly intervene once they saw Austria becoming too powerful.
 
Last edited:
  • +1
Reactions: Prettyboy and Deleted member 2729
It's somewhat legit. The civil unrest in Germany was ridiculously high, leading to a revolution at early November. Mostly because of how many men were dying at the front, and the British blockade starving Germany and killing it's economy. The Ukrainian wheat after the Brest-Litovsk treaty but it wasn't enough.

Had every German citizen been a goodboy and did their part to aid the war effort with no complaint despite the starvation and poverty. The Germans might have been able to secure a better treaty or even have a minor victory ngl.
 

Similar threads

B
Replies
27
Views
2K
BrahminBoss
BrahminBoss
dreamcake1mo
Replies
56
Views
12K
Joshrc
Joshrc
Aypo129
Replies
17
Views
2K
Debetro
Debetro
D
Replies
40
Views
5K
LevantinePsycho
LevantinePsycho

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top