How high meat consumption leads to arterial plaque formation

[noodlelover]

This is a reponse to a question on my profile page. I don't want to break it up into a bunch of little chunks so I'm posting it here. This is only my current understanding based on the studies I've read, and subject to change as I encounter new information.

---

That's a good question.

The evidence that high meat leads to arterial plaque

Pretty much every longitudinal study ever done shows that higher meat consumption is associated higher rates of arterial plaque and heart disease.

Not only this, but interventions such as low or no meat reverse this arterial plaque.

The proponents of the Carnivore diet, will say that's only because those populations were eating meat and carbs, and if you only eat meat you're safe from arterial plaque formation. They often point to the carnivore eskimos who ate only meat, mostly fish, and "lived long healthy lives."

But when you look at an actual study on the carnivore eskimos, you see that both the men and women die on average in their 40s and when their hearts are cut open post mortem, extensive arterial plaque is found.

There's some African population of carnivores as well, but again they all die in their 40s. No post mortem studies on them that I could find but it wouldn't surprise me if there arteries were like that of the carnivore eskimos.

The causal mechanisms

1. High LDL Cholesterol penetrates the walls of the blood vessels
2. The LDL Cholesterol Oxidizes triggering an inflammatory response attracting immune cells to the area.
3. These immune cells crowd around the oxidize LDL and together all of it hardens into plaque.

Peter Attia is a famous advocator of a high meat diet. He takes statins to lower his LDL cholesterol to not get arterial plaque build up and die from the diet he advocates.

Many studies show that long term application of statins reduces coronary heart disease, so his theory has evidence supporting it.

But I have worries of possible unintended consequences. If you have to take a drug to stay alive on your diet, maybe it's not the greatest diet?

Statins are prescription only medicine, so you'd need to get your doctor on board if you want to try Peter Attia's strategy.

In theory there's another way. Supplementing with Berberine to reduce arterial plaque. Berberine is an over the counter supplement meaning you can get it without a doctor's prescription.

How much plaque can it reverse, with what dosages, and under what conditions? You'd have to do your own research to find out.

Now, berberine also decreases protein synthesis, and increases protein breakdown leading to smaller muscles. Essentially the body has two modes: BUILD and REPAIR. (These are modulated by IGF-1 and the MTOR pathways) And if you're always in Build mode, you will look good and then die early. If you're always in repair mode you'll live a long time but look scrawny.

Which is why I think some kind of mixture or cycling of the two modes is ideal.

 

[RICHCELDOM]

Jew studies that want to make people eat noodles instead

 

[noodlelover]

Jew studies that want to make people eat noodles instead

Many different people come from numerous different backgrounds, to become scientists and collectively contribute to our understanding of the human body.

If some one publishes something that's not correct, some one else is able to further their own career by debunking it.

While science is imperfect, and gets some things wrong, it's our current best guess understanding the world.

Fuck I have to pay my taxes. Fuck Fuck Fuck. I hate taxes.

 

[RICHCELDOM]

Many different people come from numerous different backgrounds, to become scientists and collectively contribute to our understanding of the human body.

If some one publishes something that's not correct, some one else is able to further their own career by debunking it.

While science is imperfect, and gets some things wrong it's our current best guess understanding the world.

Water I read ncbi every day. I personally don't believe in this meat argument nothing against you.

 

[2025cel]

2021cel eh? I thought you guys would be a bit smarter! But no yer total buffoons #NoMercy2021Ngas

 

[LTNUser]

I can't eat beef it goes against our religion

 

[RICHCELDOM]

I can't eat beef it goes against our religion

Are u Hindu?

 

[LTNUser]

Are u Hindu?

Yes

 

[noodlelover]

Water I read ncbi every day. I personally don't believe in this meat argument

Which specific part of the arterial plaque formation process do you not believe, and what's your evidence for not believing it?

How do you explain the arterial plaque formation of the carnivore eskimos that eat only fish and wild animals?

nothing against you.

Same. I'm just trying to understand what's going on in the human body like everybody else.

 

[Thebuffdon]

@ey88

 

[Thebuffdon]

According to internet:

Meat bad
Vegetables bad
Carb bad
Fruits bad

- just starve and die

 

[RICHCELDOM]

Which specific part of the arterial plaque formation process do you not believe, and what's your evidence for not believing it?

How do you explain the arterial plaque formation of the carnivore eskimos that eat only fish and wild animals?



Same. I'm just trying to understand what's going on in the human body like everybody else.

Hard to isolate one thing to a effect in a diet. Many people who consume meat smoke while vegans try to avoid smoking as they are try to be healthier

 

[noodlelover]

Hard to isolate one thing to a effect in a diet. Many people who consume meat smoke while vegans try to avoid smoking as they are try to be healthier

Vegans are only 1% of the population, so I don't think they are going to significantly effect a longitudinal study.

But you're talking about "healthy user bias", which still doesn't explain the arterial plaque formation we see in the carnivore eskimos.

 

[RICHCELDOM]

Vegans are only 1% of the population, so I don't think they are going to significantly effect a longitudinal study.

so who is the contrast to meat eaters? you are just talking about red meat getcha i placed it under the umbella of animal products as in you are talking in animal products

 

[BimaxLaser]

According to internet:

Meat bad
Vegetables bad
Carb bad
Fruits bad

- just starve and die

They are all correct and incorrect. You just have to eat the right balance

 

[Thebuffdon]

They are all correct and incorrect. You just have to eat the right balance

“They are all correct and incorrect”

JFL

 

[noodlelover]

so who is the contrast to meat eaters? you are just talking about red meat getcha i placed it under the umbella of animal products as in you are talking in animal products

So I'm aware that this is speculative because we can't control for every factor. But what I'm looking for is a best guess.

We have the blue zones which eat an omnivore diet, and have an average lifespan in their 80s and 90s compared to every population of carnivores we can find which die on average in their 40s.

 

[cooldude1231]

Its weird because theres also studies showing people with high ldl live the same or even longer

https://www.meddocsonline.org/annals-of-epidemiology-and-public-health/the-LDL-paradox-higher-LDL-cholesterol-is-associated-with-greater-longevity.pdf

 

[noodlelover]

Its weird because theres also studies showing people with high ldl live the same or even longer

https://www.meddocsonline.org/annals-of-epidemiology-and-public-health/the-LDL-paradox-higher-LDL-cholesterol-is-associated-with-greater-longevity.pdf

Thanks for the study, Bro.

It took me a long time to get through. But it's extremely bias, misleading, and straight up lies at various points. It's not like they have some new source of information, it's a metanalysis that cherry picks data from other studies in a highly intentionally misleading way, so that the conspiracy theory authors can claim to be scientists and sell more of their books.


The paper:

It's a meta analysis.

In studies of older people, High LDL was associated with longer lifespans. The standard explanation is survivorship bias, that those who don't have large blood vessels for example to survive for longer with higher plaque are already dead.

Familial hypercholesterolemia (FH) is a genetic condition that causes high levels of LDL in the blood.

The paper doesn't mention that only 0.33% of the population have FH. The paper also doesn't mention that people with FH have arterial plaque formation from a very young age. The paper falsely claims that people with FH have a life expectancy similar to the regular population. Not true at all, unless those with FH are on statin lower drugs their entire lives they have a life expectancy of 30 years old. The arterial plaque kill them quickly, yet those who wrote this dog shit paper failed to mention any of this.

Stress increases LDL and stress leads to higher heart disease. The paper suggests that maybe stress causes heart disease and stress causes high LDL. But the paper doesn't mention that statins lower LDL and heart disease, which debunks their stress as the primary cause of heart disease theory.

The paper shows that those with extremely low LDL have a higher risk of dying of infections. So they hypothesize that possible LDL supports the immune function. Low LDL also increases the risk of cancer, and cancer lowers LDL, so it would appear that LDL is a resource used up by the immune system in fighting cancer and infections.

But that's unnaturally low levels. Even vegans have some LDL cholesterol. Not having High LDL (from moderate or high meat consumption) is what you need to not have arterial plaque formation. It's not these unnaturally low levels the authors are talking about.

If you have diabetes then then LDL isn't a strong predictor of mortality. The paper doesn't mention that the primary cause of death of people with diabetes is heart disease. Their veins area already fucked. That's like saying we found no strong correlation between the amount of cigarettes heavy smokers smoked, and their risk of lung cancer, therefore smoking doesn't cause lung cancer.

The Paper offers up a Conspiracy Theory

Towards the end the paper suggests that the cholesterol hypothesis for arterial plaque is supported by the drug industry. It's basically just a hail marry, any paper that disagrees with the papers we cherry picked for this paper is funded by the drug industry.

I would be intrigued, and wanting to them to go into more detail if they hadn't been so dishonest and intentionally deceptive up until this point.

Competing Interests

By the time I made it to the bottom of the paper, I was getting fed up with the lies, inaccuracies, and intentionally misleading presentation of information.

I was genuinely wondering, what the fuck is wrong with these "researchers"?

Competing interests: TH has received speaker fees from Nissui Pharmaceutical and Nippon Suisan Kaisha. KSM has a US patent for a homocysteine-lowering protocol. RH, HO, RS and UR have written books with criticism of the cholesterol hypothesis.

They're not scientists at all, they're conspiracy theorists who profit off of peddling bat shit insane conspiracy theories. Conspiracy theorists who lie, leave out details, and mislead rather than approaching things open and honestly.

Annals of Epidemiology & Public Health

Ok, so the paper was published in the Annals of Epidemiology & Public Health. Would a peer reviewed journal allow this highly deptive framing?

Currently the Annals of Epdemiology & Public Health charges 100$ per paper published, and it's only published online.

Article Processing Charge | Journal of Epidemiology and Public Health

The hosting of that data likely takes pennies at most.

But if the authors want any one to be able to read their "paper" even without a subscription, they also have to pay the "Open Access" charge.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/journal/annals-of-epidemiology/publish/open-access-options

A fee of 3,800$.

So that's a fee of 3,900$ paid by the writers to publish.

So What's going on Here

What this "paper", and I'm using that term loosely is, is an advertising investment for conspiracy theory authors, in hopes that it will boost their shitty book sales and speaking fees.

So they can say "Look we published a meta-analysis, don't read it, just trust me bro, buy our books, pay us to speak".


@ey88

 

[cooldude1231]

@thereallegend What do you think?

 

[mrdouchebag]

BULL-FUCKING-SHIT!
Jewish propaganda to push people to eat genetically engineered bugsprayed veggies and synthetic burgers in order to turn the whole planet into weak soy beta cucks. FUCK THIS NONSENSE!
Meat and high protein is the key to longevity, youth, virility and rock hard ERECTIONS. Don't go down the only-meat path, but eat mostly meat.
Cromagnon warriors were eating raw meat every day, not a fucking salad along with some soy latte.

The average person nowadays hasn't exercised once in his life, is obese and eats burgers that are full of fat instead of lean beef cuts, plus sugary drinks, soy lattes and ultra fried french fries in the worst oil possible. Of course he'll have arterial plaque. But let's blame it all on the "meat", bro

All these studies are a fucking joke and here is why:

The average male has a shitty sleep schedule, which fucks up their body longterm. Having messed up test levels and high cortisol is the least of your worries. Bad sleep for decades will fuck your whole body up.
The average male is fat and hasn't exercised once in his life. Obviously being fat for decades fucks up your health big time.
The average male doesn't get much pussy. Pussy is the secret to increased longevity. The men who fuck a lot, live longer lives. The men who don't fuck a lot, live shorter lives.
Last but not least, a lot of people also smoke, drink or do sketchy drugs or steroids, which shortens their lifespan.

Eating a lot of meat is the least of your fucking worries, that's for sure.

 

[IAmWhite]

This is a reponse to a question on my profile page. I don't want to break it up into a bunch of little chunks so I'm posting it here. This is only my current understanding based on the studies I've read, and subject to change as I encounter new information.

---

That's a good question.

The evidence that high meat leads to arterial plaque

Pretty much every longitudinal study ever done shows that higher meat consumption is associated higher rates of arterial plaque and heart disease.

Not only this, but interventions such as low or no meat reverse this arterial plaque.

The proponents of the Carnivore diet, will say that's only because those populations were eating meat and carbs, and if you only eat meat you're safe from arterial plaque formation. They often point to the carnivore eskimos who ate only meat, mostly fish, and "lived long healthy lives."

But when you look at an actual study on the carnivore eskimos, you see that both the men and women die on average in their 40s and when their hearts are cut open post mortem, extensive arterial plaque is found.

There's some African population of carnivores as well, but again they all die in their 40s. No post mortem studies on them that I could find but it wouldn't surprise me if there arteries were like that of the carnivore eskimos.

The causal mechanisms

1. High LDL Cholesterol penetrates the walls of the blood vessels
2. The LDL Cholesterol Oxidizes triggering an inflammatory response attracting immune cells to the area.
3. These immune cells crowd around the oxidize LDL and together all of it hardens into plaque.

Peter Attia is a famous advocator of a high meat diet. He takes statins to lower his LDL cholesterol to not get arterial plaque build up and die from the diet he advocates.

Many studies show that long term application of statins reduces coronary heart disease, so his theory has evidence supporting it.

But I have worries of possible unintended consequences. If you have to take a drug to stay alive on your diet, maybe it's not the greatest diet?

Statins are prescription only medicine, so you'd need to get your doctor on board if you want to try Peter Attia's strategy.

In theory there's another way. Supplementing with Berberine to reduce arterial plaque. Berberine is an over the counter supplement meaning you can get it without a doctor's prescription.

How much plaque can it reverse, with what dosages, and under what conditions? You'd have to do your own research to find out.

Now, berberine also decreases protein synthesis, and increases protein breakdown leading to smaller muscles. Essentially the body has two modes: BUILD and REPAIR. (These are modulated by IGF-1 and the MTOR pathways) And if you're always in Build mode, you will look good and then die early. If you're always in repair mode you'll live a long time but look scrawny.

Which is why I think some kind of mixture or cycling of the two modes is ideal.

nice post

 

[omnilegent]

Somebody do an Early Life check on this user, please

 

[cooldude1231]

BULL-FUCKING-SHIT!
Jewish propaganda to push people to eat genetically engineered bugsprayed veggies and synthetic burgers in order to turn the whole planet into weak soy beta cucks. FUCK THIS NONSENSE!
Meat and high protein is the key to longevity, youth, virility and rock hard ERECTIONS. Don't go down the only-meat path, but eat mostly meat.
Cromagnon warriors were eating raw meat every day, not a fucking salad along with some soy latte.

The average person nowadays hasn't exercised once in his life, is obese and eats burgers that are full of fat instead of lean beef cuts, plus sugary drinks, soy lattes and ultra fried french fries in the worst oil possible. Of course he'll have arterial plaque. But let's blame it all on the "meat", bro

All these studies are a fucking joke and here is why:

The average male has a shitty sleep schedule, which fucks up their body longterm. Having messed up test levels and high cortisol is the least of your worries. Bad sleep for decades will fuck your whole body up.
The average male is fat and hasn't exercised once in his life. Obviously being fat for decades fucks up your health big time.
The average male doesn't get much pussy. Pussy is the secret to increased longevity. The men who fuck a lot, live longer lives. The men who don't fuck a lot, live shorter lives.
Last but not least, a lot of people also smoke, drink or do sketchy drugs or steroids, which shortens their lifespan.

Eating a lot of meat is the least of your fucking worries, that's for sure.

You didnt address anything he said besides calling it jewish

 

[omnilegent]

BULL-FUCKING-SHIT!
Jewish propaganda to push people to eat genetically engineered bugsprayed veggies and synthetic burgers in order to turn the whole planet into weak soy beta cucks. FUCK THIS NONSENSE!
Meat and high protein is the key to longevity, youth, virility and rock hard ERECTIONS. Don't go down the only-meat path, but eat mostly meat.
Cromagnon warriors were eating raw meat every day, not a fucking salad along with some soy latte.

The average person nowadays hasn't exercised once in his life, is obese and eats burgers that are full of fat instead of lean beef cuts, plus sugary drinks, soy lattes and ultra fried french fries in the worst oil possible. Of course he'll have arterial plaque. But let's blame it all on the "meat", bro

All these studies are a fucking joke and here is why:

The average male has a shitty sleep schedule, which fucks up their body longterm. Having messed up test levels and high cortisol is the least of your worries. Bad sleep for decades will fuck your whole body up.
The average male is fat and hasn't exercised once in his life. Obviously being fat for decades fucks up your health big time.
The average male doesn't get much pussy. Pussy is the secret to increased longevity. The men who fuck a lot, live longer lives. The men who don't fuck a lot, live shorter lives.
Last but not least, a lot of people also smoke, drink or do sketchy drugs or steroids, which shortens their lifespan.

Eating a lot of meat is the least of your fucking worries, that's for sure.

Based. Keep spreading the word around brother, it will be noticed by many.

 

[omnilegent]

You didnt address anything he said besides calling it jewish

Is he wrong?

He also adressed all the points though? The studies are literally propaganda.

Keep eating your daily goyslop and drinking your soy latte like the good goy you are but don't dare to fucking complain about muh arterial plaques when you eat the first gram of real food, meat, in years, faggot.

 

[mrdouchebag]

You didnt address anything he said besides calling it jewish

I don't need to. These studies are a fucking joke. You tell me these jesters conducted a decades old study on a large enough sample that was closely monitored and the observers were fully aware of exactly what these people were consuming and what lifestyles they led? No? Then the study is garbage. A lot of these studies are garbage. Maybe there is some slight correlation, but who cares? Some 500lb fat fuck who consumed a lot of meat died at 45 due to arterial plaque and coronary disease? Oh geez, I wonder why!

 

[cooldude1231]

Is he wrong?

He also adressed all the points though? The studies are literally propaganda.

Keep eating your daily goyslop and drinking your soy latte like the good goy you are but don't dare to fucking complain about muh arterial plaques when you eat the first gram of real food, meat, in years, faggot.

You dont know what i eat

 

[cooldude1231]

I don't need to. These studies are a fucking joke. You tell me these jesters conducted a decades old study on a large enough sample that was closely monitored and the observers were fully aware of exactly what these people were consuming and what lifestyles they led? No? Then the study is garbage. A lot of these studies are garbage. Maybe there is some slight correlation, but who cares? Some 500lb fat fuck who consumed a lot of meat died at 45 due to arterial plaque and coronary disease? Oh geez, I wonder why!

Its about the eskimos that ate a lot of raw meat not your average american who feasts on burgers

 

[silently_said]

@Never Get Up

 

[noodlelover]

I don't need to. These studies are a fucking joke. You tell me these jesters conducted a decades old study on a large enough sample that was closely monitored and the observers were fully aware of exactly what these people were consuming and what lifestyles they led? No? Then the study is garbage. A lot of these studies are garbage. Maybe there is some slight correlation, but who cares? Some 500lb fat fuck who consumed a lot of meat died at 45 due to arterial plaque and coronary disease? Oh geez, I wonder why!

There aren't any carnivore populations that regularly live past 40. None, Neither currently or historically.

But maybe that's Jewish propaganda.

Maybe the 8 million scientists world wide, who come from all walks of life, are all secretly working for the jews.

Only the small handful of youtuber's who tell us to eat nothing but meat, know the truth.

 

[noodlelover]

@Never Get Up

I blocked him because he's never had anything interesting to say, other than "It's propaganda" and "Krebs cycle", but let me know if he does this time.

I actually blocked most of the carnivore's because they're scientifically illiterate, dismiss all of science as "Jewish propaganda", and are incapable of basic logic or reading compression.

 

[cooldude1231]

Have you seen that people with low cholesterol have higher death rates? And those at 220 have the least amount of deaths

This is also speculative but id assume by the time we studied the eskimos we introduced grains to them which could cause big problems with insulin resistance. And this is also anecdotal as fuck but if you look at some vids of them https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25624401/
they look fairly old

 

[noodlelover]

Have you seen that people with low cholesterol have higher death rates? And those at 220 have the least amount of deaths
View attachment 3399538

Yes, your body needs Cholesterol. It's has many purposes in the body, including use by the immune system in fighting cancer and infections.

As you can see from the graph, you don't want levels to be too high, or too low.

The longest lived populations eat meat a few times a year on average. Or if it's more than that, it's fish and it's not the main staple of their diet.

I personally eat meat more than that, because I want more muscle, but I recognize that it is likely leading to arterial plaque formation.

This is also speculative but id assume by the time we studied the eskimos we introduced grains to them which could cause big problems with insulin resistance. And this is also anecdotal as fuck but if you look at some vids of them https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25624401/
they look fairly old
View attachment 3399563

Building a Kayak: Part 1

Filmed over a period of three years, from summer 1963 to the late winter of 1965, and released in 1967, the Netsilik series is about the traditional lifestyle …

www.nfb.ca

The image above is from the 1960s film "Building a Kayak". The actors in the film were not living a nomadic lifestyle, but were pretending too based on how they were told their ancestors lived.

"Fishing" for the origins of the "Eskimos and heart disease" story: facts or wishful thinking? - PubMed

During the 1970s, 2 Danish investigators, Bang and Dyerberg, on being informed that the Greenland Eskimos had a low prevalence of coronary artery disease (CAD) set out to study the diet of this population. Bang and Dyerberg described the "Eskimo diet" as consisting of large amounts of seal and...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

https://sci-hub.ru/https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25064579/

This meta analysis above concludes that the Eskimo's all meat diet was so bad that their incidence of coronary artery disease actually decreased with the adoption of a western diet.

Further more, the theory that fish is protective against heart disease has been debunked with randomized controlled trials, showing either a null effect or a negative outcome.

But let's back up...

https://sci-hub.ru/https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/4102857/

So the original Danish researchers, Bang and Dyerberg went to visit the eskimos around 1970 and they didn't know about heart disease living primitive life styles. They were eating mostly meat with some vegetables and potatoes. Sure, some of the doctors living in these populations could recognize heart disease but it wasn't a thing they normally looked for, so there were low recorded incidences of it. So Bang and Dyerberg in their infinite glorious wisdom, declared the Eskimo's as having low rates of heart disease with no evidence to support this.

To really know for sure we need to cut open the body and look at the blood vessels.

We have frozen Eskimo Mummies from hundreds of years ago with heart disease. Long before the western diet was even a thing. 500 years ago, an Eskimo woman in her early 40s had atherosclerosis in her aorta and coronary arteries.

The paleopathology of the cardiovascular system - PubMed

Paleopathology, the study of disease in ancient remains, adds the dimension of time to our study of health and disease. The oldest preserved heart is from a mummified rabbit of the Pleistocene epoch, over 20,000 years old. Cardiovascular disease has been identified in human mummies from Alaska...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The only thing they could be eating that far up north is meat.

 

[cooldude1231]

Yes, your body needs Cholesterol. It's has many purposes in the body, including use by the immune system in fighting cancer and infections.

As you can see from the graph, you don't want levels to be too high, or too low.

The longest lived populations eat meat a few times a year on average. Or if it's more than that, it's fish and it's not the main staple of their diet.

I personally eat meat more than that, because I want more muscle, but I recognize that it is likely leading to arterial plaque formation.

Building a Kayak: Part 1

Filmed over a period of three years, from summer 1963 to the late winter of 1965, and released in 1967, the Netsilik series is about the traditional lifestyle …

www.nfb.ca

The image above is from the 1960s film "Building a Kayak". The actors in the film were not living a nomadic lifestyle, but were pretending too based on how they were told their ancestors lived.

"Fishing" for the origins of the "Eskimos and heart disease" story: facts or wishful thinking? - PubMed

During the 1970s, 2 Danish investigators, Bang and Dyerberg, on being informed that the Greenland Eskimos had a low prevalence of coronary artery disease (CAD) set out to study the diet of this population. Bang and Dyerberg described the "Eskimo diet" as consisting of large amounts of seal and...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

https://sci-hub.ru/https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25064579/

This meta analysis above concludes that the Eskimo's all meat diet was so bad that their incidence of coronary artery disease actually decreased with the adoption of a western diet.

Further more, the theory that fish is protective against heart disease has been debunked with randomized controlled trials, showing either a null effect or a negative outcome.

But let's back up...

https://sci-hub.ru/https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/4102857/

So the original Danish researchers, Bang and Dyerberg went to visit the eskimos around 1970 and they didn't know about heart disease living primitive life styles. They were eating mostly meat with some vegetables and potatoes. Sure, some of the doctors living in these populations could recognize heart disease but it wasn't a thing they normally looked for, so there were low recorded incidences of it. So Bang and Dyerberg in their infinite glorious wisdom, declared the Eskimo's as having low rates of heart disease with no evidence to support this.

To really know for sure we need to cut open the body and look at the blood vessels.

We have frozen Eskimo Mummies from hundreds of years ago with heart disease. Long before the western diet was even a thing. 500 years ago, an Eskimo woman in her early 40s had atherosclerosis in her aorta and coronary arteries.

The paleopathology of the cardiovascular system - PubMed

Paleopathology, the study of disease in ancient remains, adds the dimension of time to our study of health and disease. The oldest preserved heart is from a mummified rabbit of the Pleistocene epoch, over 20,000 years old. Cardiovascular disease has been identified in human mummies from Alaska...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The only thing they could be eating that far up north is meat.

Can you link some of the eskimo mummies with heart disease?

 

[cooldude1231]

Can you link some of the eskimo mummies with heart disease?

Nevermind you did

 

[Valeqs]

 

[noodlelover]

Can you link some of the eskimo mummies with heart disease?

btw, don't take anything I say as gospil. I'm just trying to figure things out.

 

[cooldude1231]

btw, don't take anything I say as gospil. I'm just trying to figure things out.

Same dude dont wanna die young cause i was only listening to the carnivore side

 

[noodlelover]

Same dude dont wanna die young cause i was only listening to the carnivore side

My current plan is to transition to mostly plant based, and only a small amount of meat, when I hit my 60s.

All of the evidence I've come across suggests arterial plaque is reversable when you consume very little meat. And if you exercise enough, and have larger blood vessels then arterial plaque typically doesn't kill you as quickly.

Right now I'm on an Omnivore diet, Meat, Nuts, Vegetables, and Fruit.

I do other anti-aging things such as periodic fasting, 2 days a month senolytics, NAD Boosters, Methylene Blue for an anti-oxidant that's small enough to get inside the mitochondria and grab some of the ROS that the mitochondria produces before it can wreak havok on the DNA, as well as Red Light.

Probably in five years, I'll get a full body Infrared light system to promote healing over my entire body.

We should have expensive but useful super intelligence this decade that can help focus science, and come up with theories.

With stem cells and other therapies, a diligent bio-hacker could probably be kept alive indefinitely. Tech for staying alive is always improving.

The reason I want to live is curiosity.

Oh, and another theory I need to research, is that eggs are meat you can eat that doesn't contribute to arterial plaque, or super high LDL. I need to do more research, but maybe I'll do that in five years. Not too worried, I'm pretty healthy now.

 

[Shrek2OnDvD]

My current plan is to transition to mostly plant based, and only a small amount of meat, when I hit my 60s.

All of the evidence I've come across suggests arterial plaque is reversable when you consume very little meat. And if you exercise enough, and have larger blood vessels then arterial plaque typically doesn't kill you as quickly.

Right now I'm on an Omnivore diet, Meat, Nuts, Vegetables, and Fruit.

I do other anti-aging things such as periodic fasting, 2 days a month senolytics, NAD Boosters, Methylene Blue for an anti-oxidant that's small enough to get inside the mitochondria and grab some of the ROS that the mitochondria produces before it can wreak havok on the DNA, as well as Red Light.

Probably in five years, I'll get a full body Infrared light system to promote healing over my entire body.

We should have expensive but useful super intelligence this decade that can help focus science, and come up with theories.

With stem cells and other therapies, a diligent bio-hacker could probably be kept alive indefinitely. Tech for staying alive is always improving.

The reason I want to live is curiosity.

Oh, and another theory I need to research, is that eggs are meat you can eat that doesn't contribute to arterial plaque, or super high LDL. I need to do more research, but maybe I'll do that in five years. Not too worried, I'm pretty healthy now.

Hey man I agree with what you said. I will consume less meat as I get older because I recognise that at a certain point, it can do more harm than good

I’m okay with fish and eggs, but what do you think about butter or vegetable oils? Is it as bad as meat?

 

[noodlelover]

Hey man I agree with what you said. I will consume less meat as I get older because I recognise that at a certain point, it can do more harm than good

I’m okay with fish and eggs, but what do you think about butter or vegetable oils? Is it as bad as meat?

I keep it simple an avoid processed foods most of the time, butter and vegetable oils counted as processed. For baking chicken I use olive oil cooking spray to make sure it doesn't stick to the pan.

It's been a long time since I researched vegetable oils, I just remembered that they're probably bad. But I remember olive oil and coconut oil being not bad.

 

[PrinceLuenLeoncur]

This is a reponse to a question on my profile page. I don't want to break it up into a bunch of little chunks so I'm posting it here. This is only my current understanding based on the studies I've read, and subject to change as I encounter new information.

---

That's a good question.

The evidence that high meat leads to arterial plaque

Pretty much every longitudinal study ever done shows that higher meat consumption is associated higher rates of arterial plaque and heart disease.

Not only this, but interventions such as low or no meat reverse this arterial plaque.

The proponents of the Carnivore diet, will say that's only because those populations were eating meat and carbs, and if you only eat meat you're safe from arterial plaque formation. They often point to the carnivore eskimos who ate only meat, mostly fish, and "lived long healthy lives."

But when you look at an actual study on the carnivore eskimos, you see that both the men and women die on average in their 40s and when their hearts are cut open post mortem, extensive arterial plaque is found.

There's some African population of carnivores as well, but again they all die in their 40s. No post mortem studies on them that I could find but it wouldn't surprise me if there arteries were like that of the carnivore eskimos.

The causal mechanisms

1. High LDL Cholesterol penetrates the walls of the blood vessels
2. The LDL Cholesterol Oxidizes triggering an inflammatory response attracting immune cells to the area.
3. These immune cells crowd around the oxidize LDL and together all of it hardens into plaque.

Peter Attia is a famous advocator of a high meat diet. He takes statins to lower his LDL cholesterol to not get arterial plaque build up and die from the diet he advocates.

Many studies show that long term application of statins reduces coronary heart disease, so his theory has evidence supporting it.

But I have worries of possible unintended consequences. If you have to take a drug to stay alive on your diet, maybe it's not the greatest diet?

Statins are prescription only medicine, so you'd need to get your doctor on board if you want to try Peter Attia's strategy.

In theory there's another way. Supplementing with Berberine to reduce arterial plaque. Berberine is an over the counter supplement meaning you can get it without a doctor's prescription.

How much plaque can it reverse, with what dosages, and under what conditions? You'd have to do your own research to find out.

Now, berberine also decreases protein synthesis, and increases protein breakdown leading to smaller muscles. Essentially the body has two modes: BUILD and REPAIR. (These are modulated by IGF-1 and the MTOR pathways) And if you're always in Build mode, you will look good and then die early. If you're always in repair mode you'll live a long time but look scrawny.

Which is why I think some kind of mixture or cycling of the two modes is ideal.

Idc I eat meat and won’t stop

 

[noodlelover]

Idc I eat meat and won’t stop

I eat meat.

 

[PrinceLuenLeoncur]

I eat meat.

I’ll eat u in a min if you don’t stop. Your a meat noodle made of beef and stir fry Thai sauce

 

[Aladin]

This is a reponse to a question on my profile page. I don't want to break it up into a bunch of little chunks so I'm posting it here. This is only my current understanding based on the studies I've read, and subject to change as I encounter new information.

---

That's a good question.

The evidence that high meat leads to arterial plaque

Pretty much every longitudinal study ever done shows that higher meat consumption is associated higher rates of arterial plaque and heart disease.

Not only this, but interventions such as low or no meat reverse this arterial plaque.

The proponents of the Carnivore diet, will say that's only because those populations were eating meat and carbs, and if you only eat meat you're safe from arterial plaque formation. They often point to the carnivore eskimos who ate only meat, mostly fish, and "lived long healthy lives."

But when you look at an actual study on the carnivore eskimos, you see that both the men and women die on average in their 40s and when their hearts are cut open post mortem, extensive arterial plaque is found.

There's some African population of carnivores as well, but again they all die in their 40s. No post mortem studies on them that I could find but it wouldn't surprise me if there arteries were like that of the carnivore eskimos.

The causal mechanisms

1. High LDL Cholesterol penetrates the walls of the blood vessels
2. The LDL Cholesterol Oxidizes triggering an inflammatory response attracting immune cells to the area.
3. These immune cells crowd around the oxidize LDL and together all of it hardens into plaque.

Peter Attia is a famous advocator of a high meat diet. He takes statins to lower his LDL cholesterol to not get arterial plaque build up and die from the diet he advocates.

Many studies show that long term application of statins reduces coronary heart disease, so his theory has evidence supporting it.

But I have worries of possible unintended consequences. If you have to take a drug to stay alive on your diet, maybe it's not the greatest diet?

Statins are prescription only medicine, so you'd need to get your doctor on board if you want to try Peter Attia's strategy.

In theory there's another way. Supplementing with Berberine to reduce arterial plaque. Berberine is an over the counter supplement meaning you can get it without a doctor's prescription.

How much plaque can it reverse, with what dosages, and under what conditions? You'd have to do your own research to find out.

Now, berberine also decreases protein synthesis, and increases protein breakdown leading to smaller muscles. Essentially the body has two modes: BUILD and REPAIR. (These are modulated by IGF-1 and the MTOR pathways) And if you're always in Build mode, you will look good and then die early. If you're always in repair mode you'll live a long time but look scrawny.

Which is why I think some kind of mixture or cycling of the two modes is ideal.

Does this mean all meat or just read meat? I’ve seen people demonize red meat as being the problem.

 

[noodlelover]

Does this mean all meat or just read meat? I’ve seen people demonize red meat as being the problem.

I don't know. If you research this let me know.

I think all can be bad, but processed is the worst, then red meat.

If you look up studies, look things like "Meat effect on LDL."

 

[Uncle Dinky]

According to internet:

Meat bad
Vegetables bad
Carb bad
Fruits bad

- just starve and die

Time to dairymaxx

 

[thereallegend]

Vegetable oils clog your arteries not meat.

 

[twilight]

life expectancy averages for hunter gatherers is skewed because of infant mortality, they thrived in the harshest conditions known to man eating head to tail animal products along with whatever nuts or seeds they could find.

I understand there are a lot of studies regarding this which lead to better health outcomes when reducing red meat but for me I am just using my own common sense

there was no instances of heart disease or diabetes or anything else when we were eating red meat, butter, beef tallow, etc etc but as soon as hydrogenated vegetable oil was introduced (ie when cirsco PAID THE AMERICAN HEART ASSOCIATION TO LIE AND CLAIM HYDROGENATED VEGETABLE OIL IS GOOD FOR YOU) then we saw a gradual spike in these diseases

it get's to a certain point where you have to use your own brain and logic

These same studies you are spouting are also claiming that RANCID oxidised oil which comes from pressing, processing, and bleaching billions of tiny seeds lead to better health outcomes than saturated fat from tallow or butter