How to permanently stay chiseled – A deep dive into Epleronone and Furosemide - The truth about debloating

[Jonas2k7]

yeah you're definitely very very knowledgdable as topical estriol and estradiol didn't become mainstream for now on the thing is that i have a hard time with topical stuff due to a very damaged barrier and i would rather do systemic procedure so if you know of something unheard of to reverse skin aging i'm all in . i assume taking low dose E orally is a no go as gyno is assured ?

I will try to simplify it, theoretically adding HCG would be a good holistic approach to increase your E2 systemically and get it in the high-range with a quantity of other benefits.

I'm sure you heard of Anavar, it is the least androgenic compound there is meaning it won't negatively impact your hair or skin and actually do quite the opposite.

It is proven to increase collagen production.

The Effect of Oxandrolone Treatment on Human Osteoblastic Cells - PMC

Objective: Oxandrolone, administered to severely burned children over the first year postburn, produces increased lean body mass by 6 months; however, an increase in total body bone mineral requires 12 months. Consequently, this bone mineral ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

BPC-157 is also a great option.

"The specimens were histologically assessed for collagen, reticulin and blood vessels using scoring and morphometry. In all experiments significant differences between BPC 157-treated animals and controls were found, showing a strong, promoting involvement of BPC in the healing process."

BPC 157's effect on healing - PubMed

The 15 amino acid agent BPC 157, showing a wide range of organoprotective action in different experimental models, was used in our experiments in order to establish its influence on different elements connected with the healing process. Elements thought to be of greatest importance in the...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

It also increases the the GH-Receptor sensitivity meaning if you were to combine it with GH you would achieve even better synergestic results.

Pentadecapeptide BPC 157 Enhances the Growth Hormone Receptor Expression in Tendon Fibroblasts - PMC

BPC 157, a pentadecapeptide derived from human gastric juice, has been demonstrated to promote the healing of different tissues, including skin, muscle, bone, ligament and tendon in many animal studies. However, the underlying mechanism has not been ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

GH itself is also great to stimulate collagen production. I guess the collagen benefits from the BPC-157 may even be mediated by the increased GH efficiency in stimulating collagensynthesis.

Growth hormone stimulates the collagen synthesis in human tendon and skeletal muscle without affecting myofibrillar protein synthesis - PMC

In skeletal muscle and tendon the extracellular matrix confers important tensile properties and is crucially important for tissue regeneration after injury. Musculoskeletal tissue adaptation is influenced by mechanical loading, which modulates the ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

do you think ghk injection would have the same effect?

I was originally referring to the GHK-Cu injectable and yes, it's even better than the topical in most cases considering the limitations most vehicles used have.

my bad for all the question but so far the only biocompatible treatment i found for skin aging are prf ( who isnt available in france ) / exosomes and polynucloetides injection do you have some knowledge on that?

I wish you were able to use topical treatments man. MEP would be great, doesn't even have any side effects. @Clavicular you may want to look into this.

"MEP was applied to the face twice daily for 14 weeks but was metabolized in the skin to an inactive compound avoiding estrogen side effects, as demonstrated by the safety study."

"The efficacy study investigator noted MEP induced statistically significant improvement from baseline at week 14 in dryness (P<0.001), laxity (P=0.001), atrophy (P=0.003), and dullness (P<0.001) as compared to vehicle."

A Double-Blind Randomized Pilot Study Evaluating the Safety and Efficacy of Topical MEP in the Facial Appearance Improvement of Estrogen Deficient Females - PubMed

Facial skin aging is accelerated in postmenopausal females due to decreased collagen, reduced hydration, and loss of skin elasticity constituting the characteristics of estrogen deficient skin (EDS). The presence of estrogen receptors on dermal fibroblasts and epidermal keratinocytes confirms...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Is i-PRF really not available in France? Would be a great option to treat AGA.

Injectable-Platelet-Rich Fibrin-Smart Blood with Stem Cells for the Treatment of Alopecia: A Report of Three Patients - PMC

Hair loss or alopecia in males is very common, and so is its treatment. Until now, platelet-rich plasma has been in use for hair regeneration, which has shown results but lacks regenerative potential as compared to platelet-rich fibrin (PRF). ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

tazarotene is another new form of tret right? i whish i could handle it this shit definitely works

Taz is one of the more tolerable topical retinoids. I would really recommend you to look into it, maybe it's a good option for you. Start with a lower dosage if you do and apply it every few days.

@DORIAN @mathis

Good thread. I would be interested in what your water/electrolyte intake looks like on a day of using lasix. I have taken it twice and had no side effects with decent debloating with the following:
40mg Lasix - 3pm
40mg Lasix, 50mg eplenerone - 9pm
~4000mg potassium
~1000mg sodium
~400mg magnesium
And maybe 2L of water?

Next time I will take the eplenerone in the morning, and take the lasix all at once instead of two doses. I need to lean down though.

Epleronone is potassium-sparing meaning supplementing any additional potassium is unnecessary, which we don't want anyway as we are trying to get rid of water and electrolytes.

Use it in the morning next time and use 80mg Furosemide a few hours before the time window you want to be debloated in. Don't drink much during that day don't consume any electrolytes.

After the time window passed immediately supplement with electrolytes and drink water, though in moderation.

 

[CopeTilliRope]

I will try to simplify it, theoretically adding HCG would be a good holistic approach to increase your E2 systemically and get it in the high-range with a quantity of other benefits.

I'm sure you heard of Anavar, it is the least androgenic compound there is meaning it won't negatively impact your hair or skin and actually do quite the opposite.

It is proven to increase collagen production.

View attachment 3714581

The Effect of Oxandrolone Treatment on Human Osteoblastic Cells - PMC

Objective: Oxandrolone, administered to severely burned children over the first year postburn, produces increased lean body mass by 6 months; however, an increase in total body bone mineral requires 12 months. Consequently, this bone mineral ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

BPC-157 is also a great option.

"The specimens were histologically assessed for collagen, reticulin and blood vessels using scoring and morphometry. In all experiments significant differences between BPC 157-treated animals and controls were found, showing a strong, promoting involvement of BPC in the healing process."

BPC 157's effect on healing - PubMed

The 15 amino acid agent BPC 157, showing a wide range of organoprotective action in different experimental models, was used in our experiments in order to establish its influence on different elements connected with the healing process. Elements thought to be of greatest importance in the...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

It also increases the the GH-Receptor sensitivity meaning if you were to combine it with GH you would achieve even better synergestic results.

Pentadecapeptide BPC 157 Enhances the Growth Hormone Receptor Expression in Tendon Fibroblasts - PMC

BPC 157, a pentadecapeptide derived from human gastric juice, has been demonstrated to promote the healing of different tissues, including skin, muscle, bone, ligament and tendon in many animal studies. However, the underlying mechanism has not been ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

GH itself is also great to stimulate collagen production. I guess the collagen benefits from the BPC-157 may even be mediated by the increased GH efficiency in stimulating collagensynthesis.

View attachment 3714590

Growth hormone stimulates the collagen synthesis in human tendon and skeletal muscle without affecting myofibrillar protein synthesis - PMC

In skeletal muscle and tendon the extracellular matrix confers important tensile properties and is crucially important for tissue regeneration after injury. Musculoskeletal tissue adaptation is influenced by mechanical loading, which modulates the ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I was originally referring to the GHK-Cu injectable and yes, it's even better than the topical in most cases considering the limitations most vehicles used have.

I wish you were able to use topical treatments man. MEP would be great, doesn't even have any side effects. @Clavicular you may want to look into this.

"MEP was applied to the face twice daily for 14 weeks but was metabolized in the skin to an inactive compound avoiding estrogen side effects, as demonstrated by the safety study."

"The efficacy study investigator noted MEP induced statistically significant improvement from baseline at week 14 in dryness (P<0.001), laxity (P=0.001), atrophy (P=0.003), and dullness (P<0.001) as compared to vehicle."

A Double-Blind Randomized Pilot Study Evaluating the Safety and Efficacy of Topical MEP in the Facial Appearance Improvement of Estrogen Deficient Females - PubMed

Facial skin aging is accelerated in postmenopausal females due to decreased collagen, reduced hydration, and loss of skin elasticity constituting the characteristics of estrogen deficient skin (EDS). The presence of estrogen receptors on dermal fibroblasts and epidermal keratinocytes confirms...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Is i-PRF really not available in France? Would be a great option to treat AGA.

View attachment 3714605

Injectable-Platelet-Rich Fibrin-Smart Blood with Stem Cells for the Treatment of Alopecia: A Report of Three Patients - PMC

Hair loss or alopecia in males is very common, and so is its treatment. Until now, platelet-rich plasma has been in use for hair regeneration, which has shown results but lacks regenerative potential as compared to platelet-rich fibrin (PRF). ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Taz is one of the more tolerable topical retinoids. I would really recommend you to look into it, maybe it's a good option for you. Start with a lower dosage if you do and apply it every few days.

@DORIAN @mathis

Epleronone is potassium-sparing meaning supplementing any additional potassium is unnecessary, which we don't want anyway as we are trying to get rid of water and electrolytes.

Use it in the morning next time and use 80mg Furosemide a few hours before the time window you want to be debloated in. Don't drink much during that day don't consume any electrolytes.

After the time window passed immediately supplement with electrolytes and drink water, though in moderation.

thanks for the answer yeah i whish i could use topical stuff as i would only do tret + some form of topical e and that would be enough to reverse minor sign of aging but i cooked my skin barrier due to a stupid fr microneedling device that burned me and now i'm extra sensitive to any topical i can't handle anything so i'm actively looking for some systemic or injectable measure to help with the aging process and reduce inflammation in the skin.

and yeah france is a fucking 3rd world country prp and prf are banned here unless it's used for tendons injury .....



i was thinking of diy and buy a centrifuge but that shit is expensive .

 

[JeanneDArcAlter]

Good guide

 

[EthiopianMaxxer]

mirin botb

we're getting great threads recently

 

[AuggyDauggy]

View attachment 3709760
How to permanently stay chiseled – A deep dive into Epleronone and Furosemide
The truth about debloating
Part 4



Introduction

Spoiler: Introduction

The prerequisite to this thread is being at a low bf%, optimally around around 8-12%. If you aren’t lean, what the fuck are you doing?

Be aware that during development cutting too hard will be contraproductive. Only proceed with this thread if you are aware of that.

Debloating is one of the best techniques to drastically improve your looks, you’ll look as lean as you really are.

This thread will cover real methods to stay chiseled.

Common misinformations about debloating

Spoiler: Common misinformations about debloating

There is a lot of BS out there when it comes to debloating, be it drinking more water to flush out the extra sodium.

Keep in mind debloating is temporary, partially. You should never drain your body of water and electrolytes for extended periods.

Prolonged dehydration is linked to health complications like chronic kidney disease.[1]

What causes bloating?

Spoiler: What causes bloating?

The mineralocorticoid receptor (MR) is the primary mediator of the fluid, electrolyte and hemodynamic homeostasis of the body. It is part of the RAAS.

View attachment 3709832

We can directly modify the body's fluid homeostasis by influencing the ligands of the MR.

The primary endogenous agonist of the MR is aldosterone. Progesterone and cortisol both bind to the MR with similar affinity, though they appear to have low agonistic activity. This could be because progesterone is converted into inactive compounds[2] and cortisol is deactivated by renal cells expressing 11β-HSD2, which converts it into cortisone.[3]

Steroid users experience bloating primarily because of increased renin and angiotensin II levels, both of which are part of the RAAS, leading to an increase in aldosterone. High E2 levels also cause bloating, as estradiol increases angiotensinogen.[4]

Insulin also causes bloating by activating the RAAS and reducing ANP.[5]

View attachment 3709855View attachment 3709856

There are plenty of other compounds that cause bloating including minoxidil. Fortunately, there is a solution to all of this.

How to permanently debloat

Spoiler: How to permanently debloat

The great thing about modifying the MR pathway directly is that it is the holy grail for negating bloating from most of the compounds you use in your Looksmaxxing journey.

There are several MR antagonists like Eplerenone, Spironolactone and Finerenone. They all vary in parameters like selectivity and effectiveness.

Spironolactone is one of the least selective MR antagonists, meaning it has a non-negligible binding affinity to other receptors like the AR, PR and ER, making it one of the worst options.[6]

In fact, Spironolactone could be compared to anti-androgen treatment with cyproterone acetate.[7]

Eplerenone on the other hand was structurally derived from Spironolactone. It has a slightly weaker binding affinity to the MR but is more selective with only minimal binding affinity to other receptors, making it the best choice.[8]

Other MR antagonists like Finerenone are worth considering, but the best option would be to just stick with Eplerenone.

Dosages for Epleronone

Spoiler: Dosages for Epleronone

Now for the fun part: Your starting dosage of Eplerenone should be 25mg and you can increase it to 50mg. Don’t go any higher than that. You can take Eplerenone long-term without any significant side effects except for disregulated electrolytes. Seriously, keep them in check.

The best time of the day to use Eplerenone is in the morning, when your aldosterone levels spike.[9]

View attachment 3709879

In fact, Eplerenone may even be a great addition to support your cardiovascular health, as it does the following:
- Reduces coronary vascular inflammation and oxidative stress
- Improves endothelial function, ventricular remodeling, norepinephrine uptake, and heart rate variability
- Attenuates platelet aggregation
[10]

How to temporarily debloat

Spoiler: How to temporarily debloat

A stronger and temporary alternative to MR antagonists are the so called loop diuretics. They work by inhibiting sodium and chloride reabsorption in the kidneys, thus promoting the excretion of water and electrolytes.

The most commonly used loop diuretic is furosemide. Keep in mind that dosages vary drastically between different diuretics. 40mg of furosemide is equivalent to 20mg of torsemide and 1mg of bumetanide.[11]

You should only use loop diuretics temporarily, as they may result in side effects like ototoxicity (loss of hearing)[12, 13]. Also check for possible drug interactions.

Dosages for furosemide

Spoiler: Dosages for furosemide

Typical dosages of furosemide in studies range from 20 to 120mg. I would strictly advise against dosages above 120mg.[14]

Take the furosemide a few hours before the time window in which you want to be debloated. Also try to reduce your water and electrolyte intake throughout the day.

Conclusion

Spoiler: Conclusion

Now for the fun part: Experiment with a dosage of 25-50mg first to check for drug tolerance. Increase that dose to a max. of 200-400mg depending on parameters like bloating and secondarily blood pressure.[8.5] You can take Eplerenone long-term without any significant side effects except for disregulated electrolytes. Seriously, keep them in check.

to permanently stay debloated take 100-400mg of Eplerenone depending on the severity of the water retention. Just be aware of potential electrolyte dysregulation and DYOR.

To debloat temporarily consider using a loop diuretic like furosemide. The ideal dose would be between 40-80mg taken a few hours before the desired time window. Don’t forget that abuse of this compound can lead to serious side effects such as ototoxicity.

Spoiler: Tags

@chadisbeingmade @Magnum Opus @Orc @Clavicular @halloweed

​

Amazing thread bro, thank you

 

[whitemonster6]

View attachment 3709760
How to permanently stay chiseled – A deep dive into Epleronone and Furosemide
The truth about debloating
Part 4



Introduction

Spoiler: Introduction

The prerequisite to this thread is being at a low bf%, optimally around around 8-12%. If you aren’t lean, what the fuck are you doing?

Be aware that during development cutting too hard will be contraproductive. Only proceed with this thread if you are aware of that.

Debloating is one of the best techniques to drastically improve your looks, you’ll look as lean as you really are.

This thread will cover real methods to stay chiseled.

Common misinformations about debloating

Spoiler: Common misinformations about debloating

There is a lot of BS out there when it comes to debloating, be it drinking more water to flush out the extra sodium.

Keep in mind debloating is temporary, partially. You should never drain your body of water and electrolytes for extended periods.

Prolonged dehydration is linked to health complications like chronic kidney disease.[1]

What causes bloating?

Spoiler: What causes bloating?

The mineralocorticoid receptor (MR) is the primary mediator of the fluid, electrolyte and hemodynamic homeostasis of the body. It is part of the RAAS.

View attachment 3709832

We can directly modify the body's fluid homeostasis by influencing the ligands of the MR.

The primary endogenous agonist of the MR is aldosterone. Progesterone and cortisol both bind to the MR with similar affinity, though they appear to have low agonistic activity. This could be because progesterone is converted into inactive compounds[2] and cortisol is deactivated by renal cells expressing 11β-HSD2, which converts it into cortisone.[3]

Steroid users experience bloating primarily because of increased renin and angiotensin II levels, both of which are part of the RAAS, leading to an increase in aldosterone. High E2 levels also cause bloating, as estradiol increases angiotensinogen.[4]

Insulin also causes bloating by activating the RAAS and reducing ANP.[5]

View attachment 3709855View attachment 3709856

There are plenty of other compounds that cause bloating including minoxidil. Fortunately, there is a solution to all of this.

How to permanently debloat

Spoiler: How to permanently debloat

The great thing about modifying the MR pathway directly is that it is the holy grail for negating bloating from most of the compounds you use in your Looksmaxxing journey.

There are several MR antagonists like Eplerenone, Spironolactone and Finerenone. They all vary in parameters like selectivity and effectiveness.

Spironolactone is one of the least selective MR antagonists, meaning it has a non-negligible binding affinity to other receptors like the AR, PR and ER, making it one of the worst options.[6]

In fact, Spironolactone could be compared to anti-androgen treatment with cyproterone acetate.[7]

Eplerenone on the other hand was structurally derived from Spironolactone. It has a slightly weaker binding affinity to the MR but is more selective with only minimal binding affinity to other receptors, making it the best choice.[8]

Other MR antagonists like Finerenone are worth considering, but the best option would be to just stick with Eplerenone.

Dosages for Epleronone

Spoiler: Dosages for Epleronone

Now for the fun part: Your starting dosage of Eplerenone should be 25mg and you can increase it to 50mg. Don’t go any higher than that. You can take Eplerenone long-term without any significant side effects except for disregulated electrolytes. Seriously, keep them in check.

The best time of the day to use Eplerenone is in the morning, when your aldosterone levels spike.[9]

View attachment 3709879

In fact, Eplerenone may even be a great addition to support your cardiovascular health, as it does the following:
- Reduces coronary vascular inflammation and oxidative stress
- Improves endothelial function, ventricular remodeling, norepinephrine uptake, and heart rate variability
- Attenuates platelet aggregation
[10]

How to temporarily debloat

Spoiler: How to temporarily debloat

A stronger and temporary alternative to MR antagonists are the so called loop diuretics. They work by inhibiting sodium and chloride reabsorption in the kidneys, thus promoting the excretion of water and electrolytes.

The most commonly used loop diuretic is furosemide. Keep in mind that dosages vary drastically between different diuretics. 40mg of furosemide is equivalent to 20mg of torsemide and 1mg of bumetanide.[11]

You should only use loop diuretics temporarily, as they may result in side effects like ototoxicity (loss of hearing)[12, 13]. Also check for possible drug interactions.

Dosages for furosemide

Spoiler: Dosages for furosemide

Typical dosages of furosemide in studies range from 20 to 120mg. I would strictly advise against dosages above 120mg.[14]

Take the furosemide a few hours before the time window in which you want to be debloated. Also try to reduce your water and electrolyte intake throughout the day.

Conclusion

Spoiler: Conclusion

Now for the fun part: Experiment with a dosage of 25-50mg first to check for drug tolerance. Increase that dose to a max. of 200-400mg depending on parameters like bloating and secondarily blood pressure.[8.5] You can take Eplerenone long-term without any significant side effects except for disregulated electrolytes. Seriously, keep them in check.

to permanently stay debloated take 100-400mg of Eplerenone depending on the severity of the water retention. Just be aware of potential electrolyte dysregulation and DYOR.

To debloat temporarily consider using a loop diuretic like furosemide. The ideal dose would be between 40-80mg taken a few hours before the desired time window. Don’t forget that abuse of this compound can lead to serious side effects such as ototoxicity.

Spoiler: Tags

@chadisbeingmade @Magnum Opus @Orc @Clavicular @halloweed

​

spironolactone is my only choice, can exogenous t help with the anti-androgen effects?