i think: what if hitler had no other choice than to start the ww2? like he HAD to do it because he realized others have set him up and betrayed him

[_MVP_]

and for example the allies would have attacked and destroyed him anyway if he didnt attack first?

 

[_MVP_]

what if hitler realized the jews or so were coming for him and he desperately lashed out? kinda the same like putin MAYBE did cuz he felt threatened by the NATO

 

[Bryce]

Hitler originally sought peace and made multiple efforts but warmongers like Winston Churchill escalated the conflict unnecessarily.

 

[_MVP_]

really interesting gpt read on this:

Spoiler

This is actually a really interesting counterfactual you’re raising — and it’s one that overlaps with real debates historians and political scientists have. Let’s break it down carefully.

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The idea of “Hitler had no choice”​

Historians generally agree that Hitler was not forced into war by outside powers. His own writings (like Mein Kampf and the Hossbach Memorandum, 1937) show that he had been planning a major expansionist war for years. He wanted Lebensraum (living space in Eastern Europe), the destruction of the Soviet Union, and the subjugation of “inferior races.”
Even when Britain and France appeased him repeatedly (Rhineland, Austria, Czechoslovakia), he pushed further. The invasion of Poland in 1939 was not a “last resort” but an intentional escalation.
So from a historical-evidence perspective, Hitler was the aggressor — there’s no sign the Allies were preparing a sneak attack against him.

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Was he afraid of Jews or “betrayal”?​

Hitler’s antisemitism was not a defensive reaction but a core ideology. He sincerely believed Jews were behind both communism and capitalism and were plotting to “destroy” Germany. This was a conspiracy theory, not a real threat.
In his worldview, exterminating Jews and conquering the East were necessary preconditions for Germany’s survival. But that’s not the same as actually being threatened.

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Comparison with Putin and NATO​

This is a more complicated, modern analogy. NATO did expand eastward after the Cold War, which Russia saw as threatening. Some scholars (like John Mearsheimer) argue NATO’s moves helped provoke Russia. Others argue Putin’s invasion of Ukraine in 2022 was about imperial ambition, not self-defense.
So even today there’s a real debate about whether an aggressor was “forced” into aggression by perceived threats — but with Hitler, the evidence overwhelmingly shows it was proactive aggression.

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The “what if” scenario​

If you imagine a world where Hitler truly believed — and had evidence — that the Allies or Jews were planning to destroy Germany, his actions might look defensive rather than offensive. In international relations, that’s called the security dilemma: one side arms itself because it feels threatened, the other sees that as aggression, and conflict spirals.
But the problem is, with Hitler this isn’t what happened. His own planning documents show war was a goal long before any “threat” from the Allies.

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Bottom line​

• Real history: Hitler had agency and long-term plans; war wasn’t forced on him.
• Counterfactual: You could write an alternate history where Hitler really was cornered and lashed out defensively — but that’s fiction.
• Modern parallels: Some aggressors do feel threatened and lash out (like some argue with Russia), but that wasn’t Hitler’s case.

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Would you like me to sketch out a plausible alternate history where Hitler was actually forced into war? (It could be an interesting exercise in worldbuilding.)

Du:​

yes

ChatGPT:​

Great — let's dive into it. Here’s a plausible alternate history scenario where Hitler is not the aggressor but instead feels trapped and believes he must strike first to survive.
This isn’t what actually happened, but it’s grounded in plausible worldbuilding. We'll call this timeline:

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Alternate History: “The Preemptive Reich”​

Setting: Europe, mid-to-late 1930s​

Backdrop:​

After World War I, Germany is crushed by the Treaty of Versailles. But in this version, the postwar Allied intelligence agencies (especially French and British) begin covert operations to keep Germany permanently weak — not just diplomatically but also economically and militarily. Germany suspects sabotage and espionage behind its hyperinflation and internal chaos.

The Players:​

• Adolf Hitler still rises to power, but with less open rhetoric. He’s charismatic but more calculating, believing Germany must survive through strength.
• British and French governments are publicly committed to peace, but privately worry about a resurgent Germany. A few hardliners begin pushing for “containment” policies and secret funding of anti-German militias in places like Austria and Czechoslovakia.
• The Soviet Union is building up power and creating communist cells throughout Europe. The West and Hitler see this as a massive long-term threat.
• Zionist and Communist factions become increasingly active in Europe. In this alternate view, Hitler comes to believe there's a global conspiracy involving Jewish financiers and Soviet agents working with Western governments to crush Germany from within.

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Hitler’s Belief: "They're coming for us."​

In this version, Hitler genuinely believes that:

• The Treaty of Versailles was just the start.
• The Allies are planning to disarm, partition, or even occupy Germany again.
• Jewish and Communist forces are helping orchestrate a coming coup or civil war.
• Germany has no chance of survival unless it acts first.

He sees the buildup of British and French forces in the West, secret rearmament in Poland, and increased Allied naval activity as signs of an imminent attack.

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The Spark: 1939​

Rather than launching an aggressive war for conquest, this Hitler stages a "defensive mobilization" after uncovering (or fabricating) documents suggesting an imminent Allied invasion of the Rhineland and sabotage operations in Berlin.
He invades Poland, not to conquer, but to create a buffer zone — claiming it’s necessary to protect Germany from Soviet and Allied encirclement.
He also interns Jewish leaders, arguing they’re part of the conspiracy. He doesn’t pursue mass extermination (at least not initially), but repression is brutal.

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World War II Begins... Differently​

• Britain and France declare war, but Hitler’s propaganda gains some global sympathy — some see Germany as being cornered.
• The U.S. is hesitant to get involved, unsure if this is another European power struggle.
• The Soviet Union invades from the East, claiming to protect Slavs from Nazi tyranny — but is actually trying to divide Eastern Europe with Hitler, just like in real history.

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Moral Ambiguity and Long-Term Impact​

This version of WWII is much more morally gray:

• Hitler isn’t trying to conquer the world — he thinks he’s saving Germany.
• The Allies aren’t innocent — their secret ops, real or imagined, helped create the spiral.
• The Jewish population is tragically caught in the crossfire of paranoia and suspicion, seen as tools of an imagined global threat.

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Summary: Why this scenario works​

Real History	Alternate Timeline
Hitler plans war, expansion, genocide	Hitler sees global plot, acts "defensively"
Allies try to appease Hitler	Allies secretly work to contain and destabilize Germany
Hitler is ideological aggressor	Hitler is paranoid nationalist reacting to threats
Clear moral lines	Blurred morality, Cold War-like paranoia

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Would you like to continue building this timeline? For example:

• What happens in 1940–1945?
• How does the Holocaust unfold differently?
• Does the U.S. stay neutral?
• Does this change the post-war world?

Let me know which direction you want to take it.

 

[_MVP_]

@looksmaxxed

 

[bourgeoizyzz]

what if hitler had been allowed to team up with henry ford?