is test + hgh a mistake

grysonbit

grysonbit

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this is my sides development on like 150 test for 9 months (17-18) would test + hgh help or descend me
IMG 6575
IMG 6576


IMG 6541
 
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Add some mast and no hgh
 
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hgh will ascend you but only if done right, hgh needs to be paired with inslin or ull get severe nerve damage, hgh increases blood sugar and high blood sugar over long peroids will cause nerve damage, huge side profile ascension btw, what esther did u use btw? 150 test c?
 
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how badly did u suffer suppression from test
 
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übermog said:
hgh will ascend you but only if done right, hgh needs to be paired with inslin or ull get severe nerve damage, hgh increases blood sugar and high blood sugar over long peroids will cause nerve damage, huge side profile ascension btw, what esther did u use btw? 150 test c?
Click to expand...
how do you administer insulin to not have nerve damage. after injections, before, meals?

alternatively that sounds very easy to fuck up given i’m retarded.
would it make more sense to stack like BPC+CJC W DAC? but those also fuck with insulin no? i could be totally wrong. i’m not knowledgeable on peptides.

also thank you bhai, it was like 100 test c and i got moderate results then i started doing 150-200. now since i raped my natural production i’m on like 350
 
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grysonbit said:
how do you administer insulin to not have nerve damage. after injections, before, meals?

alternatively that sounds very easy to fuck up given i’m retarded.
would it make more sense to stack like BPC+CJC W DAC? but those also fuck with insulin no? i could be totally wrong. i’m not knowledgeable on peptides.

also thank you bhai, it was like 100 test c and i got moderate results then i started doing 150-200. now since i raped my natural production i’m on like 350
Click to expand...
this being said i don’t think i got suppressed until i started 200. it was retarded, i did it without medical help or advice. it did give me a lot of progress though. i don’t rly care if i need to be on test for life
 
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grysonbit said:
this being said i don’t think i got suppressed until i started 200. it was retarded, i did it without medical help or advice. it did give me a lot of progress though. i don’t rly care if i need to be on test for life
Click to expand...
my reasoning for this is i got a blood test when i was doing 100 and my levels were like 650 which isn’t high but isn’t like nothing, that’s a decent amount considering my baseline was like 200.

i need to retest now that im on 350 and i can adequately know how i respond with my natural system being shutdown
 
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grysonbit said:
how do you administer insulin to not have nerve damage. after injections, before, meals?

alternatively that sounds very easy to fuck up given i’m retarded.
would it make more sense to stack like BPC+CJC W DAC? but those also fuck with insulin no? i could be totally wrong. i’m not knowledgeable on peptides.

also thank you bhai, it was like 100 test c and i got moderate results then i started doing 150-200. now since i raped my natural production i’m on like 350
Click to expand...
bpc doesnt interact with hgh blood sugar or insulin, you can take it without sides (1mg eod subq is max dose i would take, bc above 1mg theres no extra benefit and eod to rule out any chance of suppression, bpc is made naturally in the liver, but the supprssiuon is so minor that you dont even have to do eod thats just me being extra super over the top careful), cjc w dac will cause nerve also but obvsly its not as strong as pinning hgh itself, if u do hgh id still recommend ghrps + ghrhs bc pinning hgh will suppress natural production and ghrps + ghrhs will make u produce naturally, also the molecular weight of the hgh u pin is different from the natural one, ur body makes many different molecular weight version so if u pin and ur body stops production u only have this one molecular weight in ur body, now in nature it goes the following way: physical exercise (hunting -> raises hgh, raises mgf, -> you get home from hunting/gathering berries -> you eat ur food -> insulin goes up bc of the sugar you consume (sugar good, starch bad) -> high insulin = many nutrients go into muscles & glucose goes into muscles and not body fat, -> hgh high from exercise + insulin high from food = igf1 being made in the liver -> high mgf from exercise + igf1 = cells mulitply (more muscles, more bones, more brain cells, more hair growth etc etc), so if we want to add top this naturally we must use all those compounds, many only use hgh but adding the other compounds will increase results drastically, we need peg mgf (mgf but with longer half life), igf1lr3 (igf1 but with longer half life), lantus (insulin but with longer half life), and hgh + ghrps and ghrhs, i recommend ghrp2 + ghrp6 + ipamorelin + cjc dac + tesamorelin for the ghrp + ghrh stack, so now we do it like this: we exercise ppreferably in the morning, before exercise take https://driadashop.eu/caberos-cabergoline-0-25mg to avoid excess prolactin, take only half a pill though cut it in half with a knife and take one half of a pill every two or three days, you will have to look for urself for the isde effects, if u become schizo lower the frequency of intake, (btw i dont have any school or work so i can do whaterver i want the entire day so keep in mind while reading this that i created this plan with full freedom of timing), so first exercise in the morning, and it has to be athletic exercise not lazy bodybuilding exercise, many freeweight compunds movements and high rep exercises all fast and explosive, then after exercise we inject 500mcg peg mgf, 100 iu cjc dac, 400mcg tesamorelin, 2,5iu hgh, 100-200mcg ghrp2, 100-200mcg ghrp6, 300-400mcg ipamorelin, subq, eat raw milk raw eggs (mix the two together so that the raw eggs dont taste disgusting) raw honey raw cow meat (no pig, pigs have more toxins in them, cant explain in english why but this is common knowledge just google it for urself), and also eat the stuff from https://aesthetic-alimentum.com/ expensive but healthy, also buy lactose and cane sugar (ofc avoid plastic packaging, we want high sugar bc high sugar = high insulin = moire nutrients go into cells = high iinslulin + high hgh = high igf1, then after eating inject 10 iu lantus and 25mcg igf1lr3, the peg mgf igf1lr3 cjc with dac and lantus u will only inject during the meal of the morning, dont pin those at the evening, also all of this do eod, i said take cabergoline every three days or so but jsut take it eod, eod so that sides are severy lower, you can run this cycle one week on one week off, so a cycle (one week duration looks like this): monday: morning: ecxercise -> inject + eat -> exercise (exercise after eating is good for many reasons, cant bother to list them, the exercise should be just as intense as the training session before the food), monday evening: exercise -> eat + inject (dont inject the things with a long half life this time like peg mgf lantus igf1lr3, also cjc dac only inject on monday morning), tuesday exactly same but no injections at all, wednesday with injections again, thursday w o injections friday with and saturday sunday without, so you are only pinning on three days but not only do you need this break between the injections (one day) and the one week break between each cycle to avoid the sides (pinning insulin/lantus is bad for insulin resistance if done excesivvely thats why the long breaks so that there are no side effectrs) also results wont be better if u pin more mcg or more often
 
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btw i can give sources for all in cheap
 
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exeercise
inject hgh, peg mgf, cjc dac, tesamorelin, ghrp2, ghrp6, ipamorelin
eat
inject lantus, igf1lr3
exercise
 
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übermog said:
exeercise
inject hgh, peg mgf, cjc dac, tesamorelin, ghrp2, ghrp6, ipamorelin
eat
inject lantus, igf1lr3
exercise
Click to expand...
didmt u just tell me injecting hgh will give me nerve damage
 
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grysonbit said:
didmt u just tell me injecting hgh will give me nerve damage
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yes but if we also inject lantus (insulin) it lowers blood sugar which causes that nerve damage, read my text please
 
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Swiss Chems and Amino Asylum are my recommenadtion
 
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grysonbit said:
yeah sorry i posted that before the other reply loaded
Click to expand...
if u really wanna do that stack dm me for proper instructions u can ruin urself if done wrong, if done correctly theres not a singular risk at all
 
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übermog said:
bpc doesnt interact with hgh blood sugar or insulin, you can take it without sides (1mg eod subq is max dose i would take, bc above 1mg theres no extra benefit and eod to rule out any chance of suppression, bpc is made naturally in the liver, but the supprssiuon is so minor that you dont even have to do eod thats just me being extra super over the top careful), cjc w dac will cause nerve also but obvsly its not as strong as pinning hgh itself, if u do hgh id still recommend ghrps + ghrhs bc pinning hgh will suppress natural production and ghrps + ghrhs will make u produce naturally, also the molecular weight of the hgh u pin is different from the natural one, ur body makes many different molecular weight version so if u pin and ur body stops production u only have this one molecular weight in ur body, now in nature it goes the following way: physical exercise (hunting -> raises hgh, raises mgf, -> you get home from hunting/gathering berries -> you eat ur food -> insulin goes up bc of the sugar you consume (sugar good, starch bad) -> high insulin = many nutrients go into muscles & glucose goes into muscles and not body fat, -> hgh high from exercise + insulin high from food = igf1 being made in the liver -> high mgf from exercise + igf1 = cells mulitply (more muscles, more bones, more brain cells, more hair growth etc etc), so if we want to add top this naturally we must use all those compounds, many only use hgh but adding the other compounds will increase results drastically, we need peg mgf (mgf but with longer half life), igf1lr3 (igf1 but with longer half life), lantus (insulin but with longer half life), and hgh + ghrps and ghrhs, i recommend ghrp2 + ghrp6 + ipamorelin + cjc dac + tesamorelin for the ghrp + ghrh stack, so now we do it like this: we exercise ppreferably in the morning, before exercise take https://driadashop.eu/caberos-cabergoline-0-25mg to avoid excess prolactin, take only half a pill though cut it in half with a knife and take one half of a pill every two or three days, you will have to look for urself for the isde effects, if u become schizo lower the frequency of intake, (btw i dont have any school or work so i can do whaterver i want the entire day so keep in mind while reading this that i created this plan with full freedom of timing), so first exercise in the morning, and it has to be athletic exercise not lazy bodybuilding exercise, many freeweight compunds movements and high rep exercises all fast and explosive, then after exercise we inject 500mcg peg mgf, 100 iu cjc dac, 400mcg tesamorelin, 2,5iu hgh, 100-200mcg ghrp2, 100-200mcg ghrp6, 300-400mcg ipamorelin, subq, eat raw milk raw eggs (mix the two together so that the raw eggs dont taste disgusting) raw honey raw cow meat (no pig, pigs have more toxins in them, cant explain in english why but this is common knowledge just google it for urself), and also eat the stuff from https://aesthetic-alimentum.com/ expensive but healthy, also buy lactose and cane sugar (ofc avoid plastic packaging, we want high sugar bc high sugar = high insulin = moire nutrients go into cells = high iinslulin + high hgh = high igf1, then after eating inject 10 iu lantus and 25mcg igf1lr3, the peg mgf igf1lr3 cjc with dac and lantus u will only inject during the meal of the morning, dont pin those at the evening, also all of this do eod, i said take cabergoline every three days or so but jsut take it eod, eod so that sides are severy lower, you can run this cycle one week on one week off, so a cycle (one week duration looks like this): monday: morning: ecxercise -> inject + eat -> exercise (exercise after eating is good for many reasons, cant bother to list them, the exercise should be just as intense as the training session before the food), monday evening: exercise -> eat + inject (dont inject the things with a long half life this time like peg mgf lantus igf1lr3, also cjc dac only inject on monday morning), tuesday exactly same but no injections at all, wednesday with injections again, thursday w o injections friday with and saturday sunday without, so you are only pinning on three days but not only do you need this break between the injections (one day) and the one week break between each cycle to avoid the sides (pinning insulin/lantus is bad for insulin resistance if done excesivvely thats why the long breaks so that there are no side effectrs) also results wont be better if u pin more mcg or more often
Click to expand...
this is very good information but what if i do not have the resources to do this, this would be very expensive and i’m not sure i trust my self to pin that many compounds without an understanding of them like u.

what do you think would be optimal to take that would not necessarily be as much goven
my time and finicial restraints
 
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übermog said:
bpc doesnt interact with hgh blood sugar or insulin, you can take it without sides (1mg eod subq is max dose i would take, bc above 1mg theres no extra benefit and eod to rule out any chance of suppression, bpc is made naturally in the liver, but the supprssiuon is so minor that you dont even have to do eod thats just me being extra super over the top careful), cjc w dac will cause nerve also but obvsly its not as strong as pinning hgh itself, if u do hgh id still recommend ghrps + ghrhs bc pinning hgh will suppress natural production and ghrps + ghrhs will make u produce naturally, also the molecular weight of the hgh u pin is different from the natural one, ur body makes many different molecular weight version so if u pin and ur body stops production u only have this one molecular weight in ur body, now in nature it goes the following way: physical exercise (hunting -> raises hgh, raises mgf, -> you get home from hunting/gathering berries -> you eat ur food -> insulin goes up bc of the sugar you consume (sugar good, starch bad) -> high insulin = many nutrients go into muscles & glucose goes into muscles and not body fat, -> hgh high from exercise + insulin high from food = igf1 being made in the liver -> high mgf from exercise + igf1 = cells mulitply (more muscles, more bones, more brain cells, more hair growth etc etc), so if we want to add top this naturally we must use all those compounds, many only use hgh but adding the other compounds will increase results drastically, we need peg mgf (mgf but with longer half life), igf1lr3 (igf1 but with longer half life), lantus (insulin but with longer half life), and hgh + ghrps and ghrhs, i recommend ghrp2 + ghrp6 + ipamorelin + cjc dac + tesamorelin for the ghrp + ghrh stack, so now we do it like this: we exercise ppreferably in the morning, before exercise take https://driadashop.eu/caberos-cabergoline-0-25mg to avoid excess prolactin, take only half a pill though cut it in half with a knife and take one half of a pill every two or three days, you will have to look for urself for the isde effects, if u become schizo lower the frequency of intake, (btw i dont have any school or work so i can do whaterver i want the entire day so keep in mind while reading this that i created this plan with full freedom of timing), so first exercise in the morning, and it has to be athletic exercise not lazy bodybuilding exercise, many freeweight compunds movements and high rep exercises all fast and explosive, then after exercise we inject 500mcg peg mgf, 100 iu cjc dac, 400mcg tesamorelin, 2,5iu hgh, 100-200mcg ghrp2, 100-200mcg ghrp6, 300-400mcg ipamorelin, subq, eat raw milk raw eggs (mix the two together so that the raw eggs dont taste disgusting) raw honey raw cow meat (no pig, pigs have more toxins in them, cant explain in english why but this is common knowledge just google it for urself), and also eat the stuff from https://aesthetic-alimentum.com/ expensive but healthy, also buy lactose and cane sugar (ofc avoid plastic packaging, we want high sugar bc high sugar = high insulin = moire nutrients go into cells = high iinslulin + high hgh = high igf1, then after eating inject 10 iu lantus and 25mcg igf1lr3, the peg mgf igf1lr3 cjc with dac and lantus u will only inject during the meal of the morning, dont pin those at the evening, also all of this do eod, i said take cabergoline every three days or so but jsut take it eod, eod so that sides are severy lower, you can run this cycle one week on one week off, so a cycle (one week duration looks like this): monday: morning: ecxercise -> inject + eat -> exercise (exercise after eating is good for many reasons, cant bother to list them, the exercise should be just as intense as the training session before the food), monday evening: exercise -> eat + inject (dont inject the things with a long half life this time like peg mgf lantus igf1lr3, also cjc dac only inject on monday morning), tuesday exactly same but no injections at all, wednesday with injections again, thursday w o injections friday with and saturday sunday without, so you are only pinning on three days but not only do you need this break between the injections (one day) and the one week break between each cycle to avoid the sides (pinning insulin/lantus is bad for insulin resistance if done excesivvely thats why the long breaks so that there are no side effectrs) also results wont be better if u pin more mcg or more often
Click to expand...
@DORIAN thoughts on what i wrote?
 
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übermog said:
bpc doesnt interact with hgh blood sugar or insulin, you can take it without sides (1mg eod subq is max dose i would take, bc above 1mg theres no extra benefit and eod to rule out any chance of suppression, bpc is made naturally in the liver, but the supprssiuon is so minor that you dont even have to do eod thats just me being extra super over the top careful), cjc w dac will cause nerve also but obvsly its not as strong as pinning hgh itself, if u do hgh id still recommend ghrps + ghrhs bc pinning hgh will suppress natural production and ghrps + ghrhs will make u produce naturally, also the molecular weight of the hgh u pin is different from the natural one, ur body makes many different molecular weight version so if u pin and ur body stops production u only have this one molecular weight in ur body, now in nature it goes the following way: physical exercise (hunting -> raises hgh, raises mgf, -> you get home from hunting/gathering berries -> you eat ur food -> insulin goes up bc of the sugar you consume (sugar good, starch bad) -> high insulin = many nutrients go into muscles & glucose goes into muscles and not body fat, -> hgh high from exercise + insulin high from food = igf1 being made in the liver -> high mgf from exercise + igf1 = cells mulitply (more muscles, more bones, more brain cells, more hair growth etc etc), so if we want to add top this naturally we must use all those compounds, many only use hgh but adding the other compounds will increase results drastically, we need peg mgf (mgf but with longer half life), igf1lr3 (igf1 but with longer half life), lantus (insulin but with longer half life), and hgh + ghrps and ghrhs, i recommend ghrp2 + ghrp6 + ipamorelin + cjc dac + tesamorelin for the ghrp + ghrh stack, so now we do it like this: we exercise ppreferably in the morning, before exercise take https://driadashop.eu/caberos-cabergoline-0-25mg to avoid excess prolactin, take only half a pill though cut it in half with a knife and take one half of a pill every two or three days, you will have to look for urself for the isde effects, if u become schizo lower the frequency of intake, (btw i dont have any school or work so i can do whaterver i want the entire day so keep in mind while reading this that i created this plan with full freedom of timing), so first exercise in the morning, and it has to be athletic exercise not lazy bodybuilding exercise, many freeweight compunds movements and high rep exercises all fast and explosive, then after exercise we inject 500mcg peg mgf, 100 iu cjc dac, 400mcg tesamorelin, 2,5iu hgh, 100-200mcg ghrp2, 100-200mcg ghrp6, 300-400mcg ipamorelin, subq, eat raw milk raw eggs (mix the two together so that the raw eggs dont taste disgusting) raw honey raw cow meat (no pig, pigs have more toxins in them, cant explain in english why but this is common knowledge just google it for urself), and also eat the stuff from https://aesthetic-alimentum.com/ expensive but healthy, also buy lactose and cane sugar (ofc avoid plastic packaging, we want high sugar bc high sugar = high insulin = moire nutrients go into cells = high iinslulin + high hgh = high igf1, then after eating inject 10 iu lantus and 25mcg igf1lr3, the peg mgf igf1lr3 cjc with dac and lantus u will only inject during the meal of the morning, dont pin those at the evening, also all of this do eod, i said take cabergoline every three days or so but jsut take it eod, eod so that sides are severy lower, you can run this cycle one week on one week off, so a cycle (one week duration looks like this): monday: morning: ecxercise -> inject + eat -> exercise (exercise after eating is good for many reasons, cant bother to list them, the exercise should be just as intense as the training session before the food), monday evening: exercise -> eat + inject (dont inject the things with a long half life this time like peg mgf lantus igf1lr3, also cjc dac only inject on monday morning), tuesday exactly same but no injections at all, wednesday with injections again, thursday w o injections friday with and saturday sunday without, so you are only pinning on three days but not only do you need this break between the injections (one day) and the one week break between each cycle to avoid the sides (pinning insulin/lantus is bad for insulin resistance if done excesivvely thats why the long breaks so that there are no side effectrs) also results wont be better if u pin more mcg or more often
Click to expand...
High iq
 
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Do not listen to these knuckleheads and start using insulin.
Keep gh at 3-6 iu’s max
Testosterone could be upwards of 500mg depending on how important gaining muscle is for you.
If you want to keep the bloat down, look into eplerenone and keep ideal sodium:potassium ratio
I wouldn’t use gh secreting peptides as their far weaker then the real deal.
You can add some orals like Anavar, Anadrol but it might nuke your hair.
 
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ChadsAreCool said:
Do not listen to these knuckleheads and start using insulin.
Keep gh at 3-6 iu’s max
Testosterone could be upwards of 500mg depending on how important gaining muscle is for you.
If you want to keep the bloat down, look into eplerenone and keep ideal sodium:potassium ratio
I wouldn’t use gh secreting peptides as their far weaker then the real deal.
You can add some orals like Anavar, Anadrol but it might nuke your hair.
Click to expand...
😛otassium
 
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you look like a model. what the fuck would you want to fuck with your hormones and shit? you should be doing everything to maintain your looks for as long as possible, not sabotaging your future with retarded advice from fucking children
 
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longjohnmong said:
you look like a model. what the fuck would you want to fuck with your hormones and shit? you should be doing everything to maintain your looks for as long as possible, not sabotaging your future with retarded advice from fucking children
Click to expand...
if i was a model id be a model
 
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übermog said:
bpc doesnt interact with hgh blood sugar or insulin, you can take it without sides (1mg eod subq is max dose i would take, bc above 1mg theres no extra benefit and eod to rule out any chance of suppression, bpc is made naturally in the liver, but the supprssiuon is so minor that you dont even have to do eod thats just me being extra super over the top careful), cjc w dac will cause nerve also but obvsly its not as strong as pinning hgh itself, if u do hgh id still recommend ghrps + ghrhs bc pinning hgh will suppress natural production and ghrps + ghrhs will make u produce naturally, also the molecular weight of the hgh u pin is different from the natural one, ur body makes many different molecular weight version so if u pin and ur body stops production u only have this one molecular weight in ur body, now in nature it goes the following way: physical exercise (hunting -> raises hgh, raises mgf, -> you get home from hunting/gathering berries -> you eat ur food -> insulin goes up bc of the sugar you consume (sugar good, starch bad) -> high insulin = many nutrients go into muscles & glucose goes into muscles and not body fat, -> hgh high from exercise + insulin high from food = igf1 being made in the liver -> high mgf from exercise + igf1 = cells mulitply (more muscles, more bones, more brain cells, more hair growth etc etc), so if we want to add top this naturally we must use all those compounds, many only use hgh but adding the other compounds will increase results drastically, we need peg mgf (mgf but with longer half life), igf1lr3 (igf1 but with longer half life), lantus (insulin but with longer half life), and hgh + ghrps and ghrhs, i recommend ghrp2 + ghrp6 + ipamorelin + cjc dac + tesamorelin for the ghrp + ghrh stack, so now we do it like this: we exercise ppreferably in the morning, before exercise take https://driadashop.eu/caberos-cabergoline-0-25mg to avoid excess prolactin, take only half a pill though cut it in half with a knife and take one half of a pill every two or three days, you will have to look for urself for the isde effects, if u become schizo lower the frequency of intake, (btw i dont have any school or work so i can do whaterver i want the entire day so keep in mind while reading this that i created this plan with full freedom of timing), so first exercise in the morning, and it has to be athletic exercise not lazy bodybuilding exercise, many freeweight compunds movements and high rep exercises all fast and explosive, then after exercise we inject 500mcg peg mgf, 100 iu cjc dac, 400mcg tesamorelin, 2,5iu hgh, 100-200mcg ghrp2, 100-200mcg ghrp6, 300-400mcg ipamorelin, subq, eat raw milk raw eggs (mix the two together so that the raw eggs dont taste disgusting) raw honey raw cow meat (no pig, pigs have more toxins in them, cant explain in english why but this is common knowledge just google it for urself), and also eat the stuff from https://aesthetic-alimentum.com/ expensive but healthy, also buy lactose and cane sugar (ofc avoid plastic packaging, we want high sugar bc high sugar = high insulin = moire nutrients go into cells = high iinslulin + high hgh = high igf1, then after eating inject 10 iu lantus and 25mcg igf1lr3, the peg mgf igf1lr3 cjc with dac and lantus u will only inject during the meal of the morning, dont pin those at the evening, also all of this do eod, i said take cabergoline every three days or so but jsut take it eod, eod so that sides are severy lower, you can run this cycle one week on one week off, so a cycle (one week duration looks like this): monday: morning: ecxercise -> inject + eat -> exercise (exercise after eating is good for many reasons, cant bother to list them, the exercise should be just as intense as the training session before the food), monday evening: exercise -> eat + inject (dont inject the things with a long half life this time like peg mgf lantus igf1lr3, also cjc dac only inject on monday morning), tuesday exactly same but no injections at all, wednesday with injections again, thursday w o injections friday with and saturday sunday without, so you are only pinning on three days but not only do you need this break between the injections (one day) and the one week break between each cycle to avoid the sides (pinning insulin/lantus is bad for insulin resistance if done excesivvely thats why the long breaks so that there are no side effectrs) also results wont be better if u pin more mcg or more often
Click to expand...
What is this stack exacly for. Height? Because wouldnt skiping every other week not be useful. How significant is the diffrence to just pinning 8IU HGH a day?
 
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penaldinho said:
What is this stack exacly for. Height? Because wouldnt skiping every other week not be useful. How significant is the diffrence to just pinning 8IU HGH a day?
Click to expand...
minimizing sides but you can do every week as long as you dont pin ed
 
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penaldinho said:
With same effects of HGH?
Click to expand...
i didnt read the last part of ur message, nah effects of my stack are much much much much greater, height ofc still depending on growth plates but muscle wise its alot greater, you can prolly reach perfect physique within two months or so
 
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HGH Maximization at 17
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