Is upwards really the best direction for pulling on a facepuller? Study says opposite? HIGH IQCELS GTFIH

[retard]

Ive been contemplating this quite a bit, it seems obvious that since the tongue applies an upwards and forwards force that is the same direction to facepull in, but i think it is a little more complex when you dive deeper and it leads to some interesting results. When thinking about which way to apply the force, you need to keep in mind that when you press up on something, the side of which you press up on something matters too, as far as my knowledge goes, i have no clue which part of the maxilla will move easiest, the posterior or anterior. If when you apply an upwards force and the posterior of the maxilla rotates first... well you get clockwise aka downward grown rotation even though you would generally think pulling up will always result in CCW rotation, this might not always be the case and it depends on which part of the maxilla will move first, this probably is also affected by which anchor point you choose to use. By this same logic if the posterior maxilla rotates first, when you apply a downwards force it will actually rotate the maxilla counterclockwise. which is completely unexpected from what we have currently been theorizing. I came to this conclusion that this might be possible for our current understandings of which direction to pull may be incorrect when i found this study

Effect of varying the force direction on maxillary orthopedic protraction - PubMed

The aim of this study was to examine the effect of varying the force direction on maxillary protraction. A total of 20 patients with class III maxillary retrognathism were randomly divided into two groups. Group 1 was comprised of nine patients with a mean age of 8.58 years, and group 2 was...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

In group 1, we applied the force intraorally from the canine region with a forward and downward direction at a 30 degrees angle to the occlusal plane. In group 2, the force was applied extraorally 20 mm above the maxillary occlusal plane. In both groups a unilateral 500 g force was applied and the patients were instructed to wear the face mask for 16 h/d for the first three months and 12 h/d for the next three months. The Wilcoxon sign rank test was used to evaluate the effect of the two different face masks, and a Mann-Whitney U-test was carried out to evaluate the differences between the two groups. The results showed that both force systems were equally effective to protract the maxilla; however, in group I we observed that the maxilla advanced forward with a counter-clockwise rotation. In group 2 we observed an anterior translation of maxilla without rotation. The dental effects of both methods were also different. The maxillary occlusal plane did not rotate in group 1, in contrast to the clockwise rotation in group 2. The maxillary incisors were proclined slightly in group 1, but in contrast they were retroclined and extruded in group 2. In conclusion, the force application from near the center of resistance of the maxilla was an effective method to prevent the unwanted side effects, such as counter-clockwise rotation of the maxilla, in group 1.

if i understood this correctly, it means that pulling in an upwards angle will actually prevent any maxillary rotation and just move it over, while rotating downwards is caused by a negative angle, quite confusing and I dont really know what to make of this. It seems completely contradictory for pulling upwards to result in a downwards occlusal plane... unless the posterior maxilla responds first and goes upwards while the anterior section moves upwards lesser than the posterior.

tagging other high iq users to hopefully give their opinions on this so we can figure this shit out

@betamanlet @nelson @Slyfex8 @SayNoToRotting @goldenglass @OldRooster @CopeAndRope r i p
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29135737 just found this too, says that downwards angle force rotates maxilla counterclockwise and decreases posterior height of maxilla

 

[Luke LLL]

Ive been contemplating this quite a bit, it seems obvious that since the tongue applies an upwards and forwards force that is the same direction to facepull in, but i think it is a little more complex when you dive deeper and it leads to some interesting results. When thinking about which way to apply the force, you need to keep in mind that when you press up on something, the side of which you press up on something matters too, as far as my knowledge goes, i have no clue which part of the maxilla will move easiest, the posterior or anterior. If when you apply an upwards force and the posterior of the maxilla rotates first... well you get clockwise aka downward grown rotation even though you would generally think pulling up will always result in CCW rotation, this might not always be the case and it depends on which part of the maxilla will move first, this probably is also affected by which anchor point you choose to use. By this same logic if the posterior maxilla rotates first, when you apply a downwards force it will actually rotate the maxilla counterclockwise. which is completely unexpected from what we have currently been theorizing. I came to this conclusion that this might be possible for our current understandings of which direction to pull may be incorrect when i found this study

Effect of varying the force direction on maxillary orthopedic protraction - PubMed

The aim of this study was to examine the effect of varying the force direction on maxillary protraction. A total of 20 patients with class III maxillary retrognathism were randomly divided into two groups. Group 1 was comprised of nine patients with a mean age of 8.58 years, and group 2 was...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

In group 1, we applied the force intraorally from the canine region with a forward and downward direction at a 30 degrees angle to the occlusal plane. In group 2, the force was applied extraorally 20 mm above the maxillary occlusal plane. In both groups a unilateral 500 g force was applied and the patients were instructed to wear the face mask for 16 h/d for the first three months and 12 h/d for the next three months. The Wilcoxon sign rank test was used to evaluate the effect of the two different face masks, and a Mann-Whitney U-test was carried out to evaluate the differences between the two groups. The results showed that both force systems were equally effective to protract the maxilla; however, in group I we observed that the maxilla advanced forward with a counter-clockwise rotation. In group 2 we observed an anterior translation of maxilla without rotation. The dental effects of both methods were also different. The maxillary occlusal plane did not rotate in group 1, in contrast to the clockwise rotation in group 2. The maxillary incisors were proclined slightly in group 1, but in contrast they were retroclined and extruded in group 2. In conclusion, the force application from near the center of resistance of the maxilla was an effective method to prevent the unwanted side effects, such as counter-clockwise rotation of the maxilla, in group 1.

if i understood this correctly, it means that pulling in an upwards angle will actually prevent any maxillary rotation and just move it over, while rotating downwards is caused by a negative angle, quite confusing and I dont really know what to make of this. It seems completely contradictory for pulling upwards to result in a downwards occlusal plane... unless the posterior maxilla responds first and goes upwards while the anterior section moves upwards lesser than the posterior.

tagging other high iq users to hopefully give their opinions on this so we can figure this shit out

@betamanlet @nelson @Slyfex8 @SayNoToRotting @goldenglass @OldRooster @CopeAndRope r i p
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29135737 just found this too, says that downwards angle force rotates maxilla counterclockwise and decreases posterior height of maxilla

Just pull from the middle theory.

 

[Vermilioncore]

Brutal as fuck ngl

 

[hoodmaxxnigga]

whats your take on thumbpulling?

 

[Chintuck22]

In group 1, we applied the force intraorally from the canine region with a forward and ....

They didn't do shit, look up sphenoid rotation, pull in direction where it should be rotating, this is 'rotator'