It’s over for downgrowncels like me

[hassan12]

I had a consultation with Erol Cansiz and he said my occlusal plane was almost straight and that ccw rotation is impossible in my case. Meanwhile Alfaro said I needed ccw rotation. What do you guys think? What can I possibly even do at this point

 

[HarrierDuBois]

One noname says you don't need it and one renowned surgeon says you do. Quite clear which one you trust.

 

[hassan12]

One noname says you don't need it and one renowned surgeon says you do. Quite clear which one you trust.

Alfaro is renowned for botching people half of the time sure

 

[HarrierDuBois]

Alfaro is renowned for botching people half of the time sure

Just by one glance on the photo it's water you need CCW. Also are you finnish?

 

[hassan12]

Just by one glance on the photo it's water you need CCW. Also are you finnish?

Yea but not ethnic. How’d you know?

 

[HarrierDuBois]

Yea but not ethnic. How’d you know?

Text on the photo is finnish, also your name suggests middle eastern heritage (as well as nose).

 

[hassan12]

Just by one glance on the photo it's water you need CCW. Also are you finnish?

That’s the thing. Everyone on looksmax forum says I do. Everyone on jawsurgery reddit and Erol says I don’t. Also say what you want about Erol but a maxiillofacial surgeon should be easily able to tell how good or bad your occlusal plane is. Dude was lecturing me for 5minutes with reference to angles and geometry as to why it’s impossible. Basically boiled down to “you have an almost straight occlusal plane and rotation will make it impossible for you to even close your mouth and yea I cant remember the rest. So yea im really confused. Maybe i’ll ask for a third opinion.

 

[hassan12]

Text on the photo is finnish, also your name suggests middle eastern heritage (as well as nose).

Im east african

 

[HarrierDuBois]

Im east african

Somali huh? Well interesting. Can't you just run thug game unironically? Or is this primarily for health concerns?

That’s the thing. Everyone on looksmax forum says I do. Everyone on jawsurgery reddit and Erol says I don’t. Also say what you want about Erol but a maxiillofacial surgeon should be easily able to tell how good or bad your occlusal plane is. Dude was lecturing me for 5minutes with reference to angles and geometry as to why it’s impossible. Basically boiled down to “you have an almost straight occlusal plane and rotation will make it impossible for you to even close your mouth and yea I cant remember the rest. So yea im really confused. Maybe i’ll ask for a third opinion.

Whatever you do, do NOT trust reddit when you want harsh truths because whatever they say you must detract a decent chunk of sugar from it. They will sugarcoat it all, tell recessed people that they don't need jaw surgery etc. If they say you don't need CCW you definitely do. If we (a specific amount of us knowledgeable enough) say you need it, you definitely do. If one not so well known surgeon says you don't - he most likely is not capable of doing it well enough.

 

[hassan12]

Somali huh? Well interesting. Can't you just run thug game unironically? Or is this primarily for health concerns?


Whatever you do, do NOT trust reddit when you want harsh truths because whatever they say you must detract a decent chunk of sugar from it. They will sugarcoat it all, tell recessed people that they don't need jaw surgery etc. If they say you don't need CCW you definitely do. If we (a specific amount of us knowledgeable enough) say you need it, you definitely do. If one not so well known surgeon says you don't - he most likely is not capable of doing it well enough.

Yea you have a point but still doesn't explain why Erol said that it's physically impossible not even "not recommended". It's sad tho cuz I need it. I'm downgrown af and it's probably the only thing I can do to somewhat reverse it. I think i'm gonna consult another surgeon tho maybe Ramieri. But endgame I cant afford those surgeons. Maybe i'll make a plan with Ramieri or someone and then get a French surgeon in a public clinic to operate cuz they cheap af.

 

[hassan12]

Somali huh? Well interesting. Can't you just run thug game unironically? Or is this primarily for health concerns?


Whatever you do, do NOT trust reddit when you want harsh truths because whatever they say you must detract a decent chunk of sugar from it. They will sugarcoat it all, tell recessed people that they don't need jaw surgery etc. If they say you don't need CCW you definitely do. If we (a specific amount of us knowledgeable enough) say you need it, you definitely do. If one not so well known surgeon says you don't - he most likely is not capable of doing it well enough.

Nah I can't run the thug game hahaa it doesn't suit. I'm a more academic and career oriented person but yea still aesthetics is my main concern. Also this is what Alfaro said on realself;

Also the thing with Erol is that he actually is good with CCW rotations because he does them often and pretty well. You can see on his instagram. This is what even confuses me more.

 

[vzidel]

Yea you have a point but still doesn't explain why Erol said that it's physically impossible not even "not recommended". It's sad tho cuz I need it. I'm downgrown af and it's probably the only thing I can do to somewhat reverse it. I think i'm gonna consult another surgeon tho maybe Ramieri. But endgame I cant afford those surgeons. Maybe i'll make a plan with Ramieri or someone and then get a French surgeon in a public clinic to operate cuz they cheap af.

dude you obviously need it, just get it, ramieri’s the best surgeon for bimax, pricy but worth it. and good luck having your organs stolen in some random public clinic in the middle of nowhere

 

[hassan12]

dude you obviously need it, just get it, ramieri’s the best surgeon for bimax, pricy but worth it. and good luck having your organs stolen in some random public clinic in the middle of nowhere

Isn't Ramieri like 20k? France has some great surgeons like Charrier that do bimax for under 10k

 

[HarrierDuBois]

Yea you have a point but still doesn't explain why Erol said that it's physically impossible not even "not recommended". It's sad tho cuz I need it. I'm downgrown af and it's probably the only thing I can do to somewhat reverse it. I think i'm gonna consult another surgeon tho maybe Ramieri. But endgame I cant afford those surgeons. Maybe i'll make a plan with Ramieri or someone and then get a French surgeon in a public clinic to operate cuz they cheap af.

Reason he says no is because he is incapable by himself but doesn't want to lose money from you.

Nah I can't run the thug game hahaa it doesn't suit. I'm a more academic and career oriented person but yea still aesthetics is my main concern. Also this is what Alfaro said on realself;

View attachment 2889539


Also the thing with Erol is that he actually is good with CCW rotations because he does them often and pretty well. You can see on his instagram. This is what even confuses me more.

Show Alfaros assessment and ask him to defend his standpoint.

 

[hassan12]

Reason he says no is because he is incapable by himself but doesn't want to lose money from you.


Show Alfaros assessment and ask him to defend his standpoint.

Alfaro's assessment was like a few sentences written on Realself. He didn't really justify or explain. Meanwhile Erol was on videocall with me and was explaining why it's impossible with reference to geometrical analysis of my jaw position. And he seemed really confident. This is what Alfaro basically wrote tho;

I just emailed Pagnoni asking him about this let's see what his take is.

 

[HarrierDuBois]

Alfaro's assessment was like a few sentences written on Realself. He didn't really justify or explain. Meanwhile Erol was on videocall with me and was explaining why it's impossible with reference to geometrical analysis of my jaw position. And he seemed really confident. This is what Alfaro basically wrote tho;

View attachment 2889644

I just emailed Pagnoni asking him about this let's see what his take is.

If I were you I would demand CCW.

 

[hassan12]

If I were you I would demand CCW.

I am. I just hope it's possible and not "physically impossible" like the surgeon I consulted told me. Gonna see what Pagnoni said.

On a seperate note, not sure how knowledgeable you are on this but can ccw rotation along with advancement typically ascend downgrown faces? Have you seen it happen.

 

[Allornothing]

Looks like bimaxillary protrusion and short ramus. Not maxillary downgrowth.

 

[HarrierDuBois]

I am. I just hope it's possible and not "physically impossible" like the surgeon I consulted told me. Gonna see what Pagnoni said.

On a seperate note, not sure how knowledgeable you are on this but can ccw rotation along with advancement typically ascend downgrown faces? Have you seen it happen.

Yes it happens.

 

[hassan12]

Looks like bimaxillary protrusion and short ramus. Not maxillary downgrowth.

nah I thought so too based on my normal profile but from the xray you can see that my incisors are flared out aka angled like shit. That's why I need braces before. But I definitely have a downgrowth problem because I've been a mouthbreather during my teenage years and this has caused my mandible atleast to grow downwards and presumably my maxilla too. I had a much more defined jawline and overall face when I was 14 compared to now (im 23)

 

[Allornothing]

I had a much more defined jawline and overall face when I was 14 compared to now (im 23)

Probably just gained weight or it's in your head. Maxillary downgrowth and mandibular downgrowth are two different things. Also mouthbreathing is cope and the maxilla doesn't just "grow down" with age. Your call though.

 

[vzidel]

Isn't Ramieri like 20k? France has some great surgeons like Charrier that do bimax for under 10k

higher than 20k. ive never heard of someone named charrier, who are all these rando surgeons you keep mentioning

 

[Pakicel]

Based on your frankfurt plane, it looks like you do have a steep occlusal plane. Your tilting your head up quite a bit which makes your occlusal plane look flatter than it really is.

 

[hassan12]

Based on your frankfurt plane, it looks like you do have a steep occlusal plane. Your tilting your head up quite a bit which makes your occlusal plane look flatter than it really is.

Yeah I told him about the head tilt but he still stood by his stance. That my occlusal plane is straight. How come he can’t tell as a professional?

 

[Pakicel]

Yeah I told him about the head tilt but he still stood by his stance. That my occlusal plane is straight. How come he can’t tell as a professional?

I think he uses natural head posture.

 

[hassan12]

I think he uses natural head posture.

do I have to switch surgeons then it seems like he isn’t gonna consider ccw for my case

 

[VladimirtheGreat]

I had a consultation with Erol Cansiz and he said my occlusal plane was almost straight and that ccw rotation is impossible in my case. Meanwhile Alfaro said I needed ccw rotation. What do you guys think? What can I possibly even do at this point