longer PFL and wider midface Osteotomy

[Deleted member 3990]

lateral orbital osteotomies are surgeries which I kept an eye on for quite a while now, e.g. C-Shaped Orbital Osteotomy, which looked pretty good on paper, but unfortunately, you can find no pics for it.
It is also thought for syndrome/deformed patients and generally not accepted for cosmetic purpose

The Lookism member @Surgerymax, who is a maxfac in training, wants to pioneer his method

this method would mog ZSO easily and would compliment a MSE too

3 cuts are made, the coronal one is the most worrying out of them, but it is needed obviously

NEW! Lateral Surgical Orbital Expansion

A modification of an orbital box osteotomy. A midfacial tripartition. Provides horizontal eye lengthening and midfacial widening. Has an orbital decompression effect. Through bicoronal, transconjuctival & intraoral incisions.

lookism.net

This guy should join this forum tbh, so I can spam his DMs all day

@eyes

 

[Deleted member 685]

Honestly I'd get a lefort 3 if it was free. My life isn't that valuable anyway, the better looking the better

 

[Deleted member 470]

This honestly seems like a pipe dream

 

[Deleted member 3990]

This honestly seems like a pipe dream

There are many studies about similar cuts, the annoying part is that most surgeons would pussy out and Surgerymax is probably a third worldcel

 

[Deleted member 470]

There are many studies about similar cuts, the annoying part is that most surgeons would pussy out and Surgerymax is probably a third worldcel

Yes, the only surgeons you would find willing to do this are probably some underground mafia surgeons in some 3rd world country

 

[Deleted member 3990]

Yes, the only surgeons you would find willing to do this are probably some underground mafia surgeons in some 3rd world country

indeed, but these kind of procedures would cover so many things

we need to make it popular

 

[forwardgrowth]

and here was saving 40k for obo jfl the moreyou know

 

[Deleted member 3990]

and here was saving 40k for obo jfl the moreyou know

OBO only moves the orbitals, but does not widen/shorten them itself

OBO would not changePFL and is probably a bit more risky than this one

 

[Deleted member 2745]

lateral orbital osteotomies are surgeries which I kept an eye on for quite a while now, e.g. C-Shaped Orbital Osteotomy, which looked pretty good on paper, but unfortunately, you can find no pics for it.
It is also thought for syndrome/deformed patients and generally not accepted for cosmetic purpose

The Lookism member @Surgerymax, who is a maxfac in training, wants to pioneer his method

this method would mog ZSO easily and would compliment a MSE too

3 cuts are made, the coronal one is the most worrying out of them, but it is needed obviously

NEW! Lateral Surgical Orbital Expansion

A modification of an orbital box osteotomy. A midfacial tripartition. Provides horizontal eye lengthening and midfacial widening. Has an orbital decompression effect. Through bicoronal, transconjuctival & intraoral incisions.

lookism.net

This guy should join this forum tbh, so I can spam his DMs all day

@eyes

Orbital box esto is much more if a sure way I think.
I have no money for either anyways.
So it's fucking over.

 

[Pendejo]

This guy should join this forum tbh, so I can spam his DMs all day

 

[Deleted member 3962]

I would get this if under 30k tbh

 

[needsolution]

I would do anything for 2mm of pfl

 

[Cardiologyscribe]

 

[Brandon10]

How is that even going to work considering that the eyeball size, specifically the transverse diameter, grows in accordance to the orbit? Even a small movement would leave the lateral part of the eye exposed and that is not going to do any good obviously.

 

[Deleted member 3990]

How is that even going to work considering that the eyeball size, specifically the transverse diameter, grows in accordance to the orbit? Even a small movement would leave the lateral part of the eye exposed and that is not going to do any good obviously.

I will look into the literature of these surgeries soon


ofc @Surgerymax will not tell us complications

I think what could happen is
Enophtalmus
and loss of eye fluid
maybe dwindling eyesight
eyeballs roll out and twist nerves

 

[Brandon10]

I will look into the literature of these surgeries soon


ofc @Surgerymax will not tell us complications

I think what could happen is
Enophtalmus
and loss of eye fluid
maybe dwindling eyesight
eyeballs roll out and twist nerves

I think the complications are much simpler (Enophthalmos isn't likely since the eye globe doesn't have any support from the lateral rim) . You move the bone outwards, you also pull the lid margin away from the eyeball. I think severe dryness and irritation are guaranteed after that.

Besides, there's already the osteotomy that this user describes, with the difference being it is used to move the lateral orbital rim inwards.

 

[needsolution]

How is that even going to work considering that the eyeball size, specifically the transverse diameter, grows in accordance to the orbit? Even a small movement would leave the lateral part of the eye exposed and that is not going to do any good obviously.

Most people have almost same eyeball size. 300lbs male will have almost same eyeball size as 9yo kid.

 

[Deleted member 3990]

I think the complications are much simpler (Enophthalmos isn't likely since the eye globe doesn't have any support from the lateral rim) . You move the bone outwards, you also pull the lid margin away from the eyeball. I think severe dryness and irritation are guaranteed after that.

Besides, there's already the osteotomy that this user describes, with the difference being it is used to move the lateral orbital rim inwards.

Asians have a shaving and narrowing fetish JFL

every surgery literature I read from Asian surgeons is pretty much the opposite of what PSlers want

 

[needsolution]

So any pflmaxxing surgery is not going to work?

 

[Deleted member 3990]

So any pflmaxxing surgery is not going to work?

The approach mentioned here is described as as invasive or more invasive than LeFort 3 by Andreishchev

 

[needsolution]

The approach mentioned here is described as as invasive or more invasive than LeFort 3 by Andreishchev

Im talking in general. I need like 2mm pfl on each side but i guess its over.

 

[Brandon10]

Most people have almost same eyeball size. 300lbs male will have almost same eyeball size as 9yo kid.

There is a paper where the authors did some analysis of the average eyeball size in adults, Transverse(s-s) is what you care for.

The conclude with the following

The size of a human adult eye is approximately 24.2 mm (transverse) x 23.7 (sagittal) x 22.0-24.8 mm (axial) with no significant difference between sexes and age groups. In the transverse diameter, the eyeball size may vary from 21 mm to 27 mm.

So the variations in the eyeball width are pretty big, which partially explains why some people have longer eyes and others beadier.

 

[needsolution]

There is a paper where the authors did some analysis of the average eyeball size in adults, Transverse(s-s) is what you care for.

The conclude with the following



So the variations in the eyeball width are pretty big, which partially explains why some people have longer eyes and others beadier.

It's over.

 

[Deleted member 3259]

People here wont even do implants, yet you sit here and talk about lefort 3s and shit. fucking lol

It's over.

You an eyecel bra?

 

[Brandon10]

It's over.

If yours aren't extremely short (chances are they aren't) and you have lower eyelid retraction, correcting it could make them look a bit longer.
As with most PSL traits, it's not such a big deal if it's not some SDs off the normal.

 

[Deleted member 3990]

There is a paper where the authors did some analysis of the average eyeball size in adults, Transverse(s-s) is what you care for.

The conclude with the following



So the variations in the eyeball width are pretty big, which partially explains why some people have longer eyes and others beadier.

If yours aren't extremely short (chances are they aren't) and you have lower eyelid retraction, correcting it could make them look a bit longer.
As with most PSL traits, it's not such a big deal if it's not some SDs off the normal.

afaik lateral canthoplasty / moving lateral tendon on lateral orbit could improve PFL, but insignificantly

 

[needsolution]

If yours aren't extremely short (chances are they aren't) and you have lower eyelid retraction, correcting it could make them look a bit longer.
As with most PSL traits, it's not such a big deal if it's not some SDs off the normal.

My PFL is like 25mm. I dont need lower eyelid retraction since my eyes are narrow vertically already (i have something similar to Tyson Beckford, narrow vertically with visible pct) but i would like to widen my face and my eyes horizontally. I spent a lot time looking for any surgery which would allow me to increase my pfl by like 1.5-2mm but i didnt find anything good and im becoming hopeless day by day.

 

[Brandon10]

@Dr Shekelberg sorry if this is getting off-topic from the OP but since you're an expert: can you show a few examples of profiles, maybe X-Ray scans, with recessed chin but forward/better jaw, i.e. microgenia but not micrognathia? I've found that the opposite is much more common and I wasn't able to find any examples of what I've described.

My PFL is like 25mm. I dont need lower eyelid retraction since my eyes are narrow vertically already (i have something similar to Tyson Beckford, narrow vertically with visible pct) but i would like to widen my face and my eyes horizontally. I spent a lot time looking for any surgery which would allow me to increase my pfl by like 1.5-2mm but i didnt find anything good and im becoming hopeless day by day.

If you measured with a ruler, you probably got a measurement that is way off the actual one. Did you feel you had short eyes before discovering PSL, did people comment on it? If you don't mind a photo would help.

 

[Deleted member 3990]

since you're an expert

not at all lmao

 

[balding17yomanletcel]

nigga avi asap
bro need ur avi

 

[Brandon10]

not at all lmao

Head of Head of Doctors

Spoiler

 

[Deleted member 3990]

Head of Head of Doctors

Spoiler

hm, my AVI haloed me into an expert role

 

[needsolution]

@Dr Shekelberg sorry if this is getting off-topic from the OP but since you're an expert: can you show a few examples of profiles, maybe X-Ray scans, with recessed chin but forward/better jaw, i.e. microgenia but not micrognathia? I've found that the opposite is much more common and I wasn't able to find any examples of what I've described.

If you measured with a ruler, you probably got a measurement that is way off the actual one. Did you feel you had short eyes before discovering PSL, did people comment on it? If you don't mind a photo would help.

Yeah i felt i have small eyes in past. While puberty my eyes became short vertically so now its less visible. I measured with ruler and with iris method. Both gave result of 25mm around. Also when i took look at me and my brother in mirror his eyes are way longer.
My ipd is like 58mm

Hope u dont mind if i wont send pics today. Im using laptop and my phone is off. Will send tomorrow morning.

If someone knows any way to increase pfl at least a little bit then please pm me or reply here.

 

[Deleted member 3990]

@Dr Shekelberg sorry if this is getting off-topic from the OP but since you're an expert: can you show a few examples of profiles, maybe X-Ray scans, with recessed chin but forward/better jaw, i.e. microgenia but not micrognathia? I've found that the opposite is much more common and I wasn't able to find any examples of what I've described.

first of all, what do you define under recessed ?

small ? non-existent ? downward grown chin ?

like this ?

 

[Brandon10]

Yeah i felt i have small eyes in past. While puberty my eyes became short vertically so now its less visible. I measured with ruler and with iris method. Both gave result of 25mm around. Also when i took look at me and my brother in mirror his eyes are way longer.
My ipd is like 58mm

Hope u dont mind if i wont send pics today. Im using laptop and my phone is off. Will send tomorrow morning.

If someone knows any way to increase pfl at least a little bit then please pm me or reply here.

Consult with Taban if you're in the States, I believe he will tell you whether something is possible or not for your goals.

 

[needsolution]

Consult with Taban if you're in the States, I believe he will tell you whether something is possible or not for your goals.

Ehh i took look almost on all canthoplasties and all look like shit. There is no hope but thanks for advices and help.

 

[Brandon10]

first of all, what do you define under recessed ?

small ? non-existent ? downward grown chin ?

like this ?

Yeah that's what I'm talking about mostly, though that's more perfect jaw and not so perfect chin. Recessed meaning a good few MM behind the mouth line. Jaw: defined (not blending with the neck) but not very forward grown.

 

[Pendejo]

Shanina

 

[Deleted member 3990]

Yeah that's what I'm talking about mostly, though that's more perfect jaw and not so perfect chin. Recessed meaning a good few MM behind the mouth line.

and what do you mean with good mid-mandible and Ramus ?

I have a chadlite classmate with vertical chin (no retrusion nor protrusion

Meeks maybe ?

I have the feeling you are playing games with me lol

bad chin and otherwise subpar facial developement oftenly come together

Shanina

fogs Lima

 

[needsolution]

Shanina

Fuck her. I would do everything to get her wide orbitals.

 

[Pendejo]

fogs Lima

 

[Brandon10]

and what do you mean with good mid-mandible and Ramus ?

I have a chadlite classmate with vertical chin (no retrusion nor protrusion

Meeks maybe ?

Damn I had forgotten Meeks' terrible hyoid. But see how uncommon is having good jaw development with subpar chin? I think I may have this.

I have the feeling you are playing games with me lol

lol no I just thought you had some autistic image collection with jawlines but apparently you pass the NT test.

 

[needsolution]

Im going to create account on lookism just to shit on this guy for his stupid idea which gave me hope for a moment.

 

[Deleted member 3990]

lol no I just thought you had some autistic image collection with jawlines but apparently you pass the NT test.

NT as fuck, indeed


retrogenia is msotly in companion with bad facial developement and if not, then the loose mental muscles would result in very bad submental, thus covering your jaw anyway

 

[Golden Glass]

How is that even going to work considering that the eyeball size, specifically the transverse diameter, grows in accordance to the orbit? Even a small movement would leave the lateral part of the eye exposed and that is not going to do any good obviously.

I will look into the literature of these surgeries soon


ofc @Surgerymax will not tell us complications

I think what could happen is
Enophtalmus
and loss of eye fluid
maybe dwindling eyesight
eyeballs roll out and twist nerves

Douglas Sinn describes being capable of doing a similar procedure (seems like the same thing basically), and he says with soft tissue manipulation, and likely increasing orbital pressure, the eyeball itself can “adapt”.

Here’s some excerpts from a thread from JSF a few years ago, of someone discovering basically this exact same procedure:

“So I contacted the Don himself, Dr. Sinn, enquiring whether a palpebral fissure osteotomy could be performed to elongate the palpebral fissures by cutting the lateral orbital rim and moving it laterally with the lateral canthus attached. He said that not only is is possible, but that it is "feasible" and that he's performed it "in the past with good outcomes" and also that "risks minimal".”

“But not everyone is a candidate for such a procedure!! I'm sure Sinn offers orbital volume augmentation too, but not to someone who doesn't need it or the results would be a complete mess with not only aesthetic but also functional consequences. It's not different for the surgery you are now looking into.
Has Sinn seen your pics; did he actually offer you this procedure as you say after seeing your pics? I bet not.

If the lateral orbital rim is moved than the adjacent lateral orbital wall is moved as well, that changes the orbital volume. Perhaps Sinn makes up for this with orbital volume augmentation? It all sounds risky as hell, and if he did actually offer this to you after seeing your pics I'd eat my hat.”

“I would imagine that orbital volume augmentation would be done yes, otherwise I don't see how the positioning of the eyeball would remain stable. I believe that this also underlies what Sinn propounds as soft tissue manipulation to slightly increase the IPD during a mod lf3 too - but again it's speculation!! Myself and another user are consulting with Sinn about this in the coming months - if any of you would be willing to chip in with questions, comments, monetarily etc. it would be most welcome.”

TL;DR : Sinn basically claims to have done this procedure in the past with good results.

Source:https://jawsurgeryforums.com/index.php/topic,6167.0.html?PHPSESSID=7978b89084169a18f816d090da748f58

 

[needsolution]

Douglas Sinn describes being capable of doing a similar procedure (seems like the same thing basically), and he says with soft tissue manipulation, and likely increasing orbital pressure, the eyeball itself can “adapt”.

Here’s some excerpts from a thread from JSF a few years ago, of someone discovering basically this exact same procedure:

“So I contacted the Don himself, Dr. Sinn, enquiring whether a palpebral fissure osteotomy could be performed to elongate the palpebral fissures by cutting the lateral orbital rim and moving it laterally with the lateral canthus attached. He said that not only is is possible, but that it is "feasible" and that he's performed it "in the past with good outcomes" and also that "risks minimal".”

“But not everyone is a candidate for such a procedure!! I'm sure Sinn offers orbital volume augmentation too, but not to someone who doesn't need it or the results would be a complete mess with not only aesthetic but also functional consequences. It's not different for the surgery you are now looking into.
Has Sinn seen your pics; did he actually offer you this procedure as you say after seeing your pics? I bet not.

If the lateral orbital rim is moved than the adjacent lateral orbital wall is moved as well, that changes the orbital volume. Perhaps Sinn makes up for this with orbital volume augmentation? It all sounds risky as hell, and if he did actually offer this to you after seeing your pics I'd eat my hat.”

“I would imagine that orbital volume augmentation would be done yes, otherwise I don't see how the positioning of the eyeball would remain stable. I believe that this also underlies what Sinn propounds as soft tissue manipulation to slightly increase the IPD during a mod lf3 too - but again it's speculation!! Myself and another user are consulting with Sinn about this in the coming months - if any of you would be willing to chip in with questions, comments, monetarily etc. it would be most welcome.”

TL;DR : Sinn basically claims to have done this procedure in the past with good results.

Source:https://jawsurgeryforums.com/index.php/topic,6167.0.html?PHPSESSID=7978b89084169a18f816d090da748f58

Fucking lifefuel if true but i dont trust this old fart Sinn.

 

[Golden Glass]

Fucking lifefuel if true but i dont trust this old fart Sinn.

Other than Sinn and Wolfe, I don’t know of other American docs who would do this tbh.

and here was saving 40k for obo jfl the moreyou know

Are you serious? You must be going to Wolfe if that’s the amount you’re saving. If Sinn can do it, then Wolfe would be capable of doing this procedure as well.

 

[needsolution]

Other than Sinn and Wolfe, I don’t know of other American docs who would do this tbh.


Are you serious? You must be going to Wolfe if that’s the amount you’re saving. If Sinn can do it, then Wolfe would be capable of doing this procedure as well.

Damn i would literally eat tons of shit to get 1-2mm pfl.

 

[Golden Glass]

Damn i would literally eat tons of shit to get 1-2mm pfl.

I used to think I had a shorter PFL, since I just used that Average Iris length of 11.77mm to do calculations, but by Iris is actually huge, so it turns out my PFL is just above average, I just have anime character Irises.

But I’d still like a higher PFL too ngl.

 

[needsolution]

I used to think I had a shorter PFL, since I just used that Average Iris length of 11.77mm to do calculations, but by Iris is actually huge, so it turns out my PFL is just above average, I just have anime character Irises.

But I’d still like a higher PFL too ngl.

Bro my pfl is 25mm. I have great eye shape, great color, long lashes, good shape of brows but my eyes are small and here everything got fucked up. I morped myself with 28mm pfl, wider mouth and slighty wider zygos (everything except pfl is very doable) and i was miring myself.