MSE and ideal Maxilla width

[Ampere]

I'm planning to get MSE for nasal breathing, with the added benefits to mouth and smile width, and zygos width would be dope if I get results in line with Ronald :

I've got a few questions :
- Is IMW really a good surrogate measure for maxilla width ? Can't the teeth's tilt affect that ? I can actually just feel my maxilla with my fingers and get an idea of where it is, it's a bit wider than my IPD currently, it it possible to make your maxilla too wide ?
- As seen in the above comparison, his alar base got wider, he also got a fucking 12mm widening, I'm planning on 6 or 8 max so mine would be lessened, but I also plan on doing a bimax with anterior impaction Lefort 1 for CCW with 4 mm advancement, I'm afraid cumulating MSE + this bimax would make my alar base really fucking wide and ugly, is rhino unavoidable when cumulating both of these procedures ?
-Shouldn't MSE make zygos slightly higher set ? (Already have high zygos this isn't an attempt to cope btw just trying to discuss). We already know MSE affect zygomatic width. The important thing to consider here is the place where the suture happens makes the enlargement of the lower maxilla higher than the upper maxilla which should in turn rotate the zygos upward ever so slightly

 

[Spiritualcell]

Yeah

 

[Ampere]

I'm allowing myself to tag the expert on the matter aka @retard
Esp about the last question, in this thread https://looksmax.org/threads/why-mse-gives-minimal-ipd-expansion.123915/ he provided this beautiful illustration so he knows what the fuck is going on with the lower maxilla expansion and its possible effect on the angle of zygomatics

 

[SteveRogers]

I'm allowing myself to tag the expert on the matter aka @retard
Esp about the last question, in this thread https://looksmax.org/threads/why-mse-gives-minimal-ipd-expansion.123915/ he provided this beautiful illustration so he knows what the fuck is going on with the lower maxilla expansion and its possible effect on the angle of zygomatics
View attachment 629426

Snowflakes chance in hell that he'll reply. He's a legend, but a busy one.

 

[Ampere]

Snowflakes chance in hell that he'll reply. He's a legend, but a busy one.

Yeah but at least he's still a little bit active, I hope he can take a break from his harem to answer this thread

 

[retard]

I'm planning to get MSE for nasal breathing, with the added benefits to mouth and smile width, and zygos width would be dope if I get results in line with Ronald :
View attachment 629369

I've got a few questions :
- Is IMW really a good surrogate measure for maxilla width ? Can't the teeth's tilt affect that ? I can actually just feel my maxilla with my fingers and get an idea of where it is, it's a bit wider than my IPD currently, it it possible to make your maxilla too wide ?
- As seen in the above comparison, his alar base got wider, he also got a fucking 12mm widening, I'm planning on 6 or 8 max so mine would be lessened, but I also plan on doing a bimax with anterior impaction Lefort 1 for CCW with 4 mm advancement, I'm afraid cumulating MSE + this bimax would make my alar base really fucking wide and ugly, is rhino unavoidable when cumulating both of these procedures ?
-Shouldn't MSE make zygos slightly higher set ? (Already have high zygos this isn't an attempt to cope btw just trying to discuss). We already know MSE affect zygomatic width. The important thing to consider here is the place where the suture happens makes the enlargement of the lower maxilla higher than the upper maxilla which should in turn rotate the zygos upward ever so slightly
View attachment 629424

Imw is a correlation but not a 1:1 for maxilla width but it is generally correlated

Don’t worry about making your maxilla too wide, the only way it can become “too wide” as in problematic functionally is when condyle can’t fit in glenoid fossa, 12 mm expansion wouldn’t pose a problem for that anyways

the alar base depends on your nose right now, if it is already wide then maybe, if not then you will just how to see how the expansion plays out

Correct, the zygos should become higherset, but to the extent I don’t really know

 

[retard]

Snowflakes chance in hell that he'll reply. He's a legend, but a busy one.

lol I’m just a lot less active + I don’t get notifications half the time I’m tagged

 

[Deleted member 8758]

I'm planning to get MSE for nasal breathing, with the added benefits to mouth and smile width, and zygos width would be dope if I get results in line with Ronald :
View attachment 629369

I've got a few questions :
- Is IMW really a good surrogate measure for maxilla width ? Can't the teeth's tilt affect that ? I can actually just feel my maxilla with my fingers and get an idea of where it is, it's a bit wider than my IPD currently, it it possible to make your maxilla too wide ?
- As seen in the above comparison, his alar base got wider, he also got a fucking 12mm widening, I'm planning on 6 or 8 max so mine would be lessened, but I also plan on doing a bimax with anterior impaction Lefort 1 for CCW with 4 mm advancement, I'm afraid cumulating MSE + this bimax would make my alar base really fucking wide and ugly, is rhino unavoidable when cumulating both of these procedures ?
-Shouldn't MSE make zygos slightly higher set ? (Already have high zygos this isn't an attempt to cope btw just trying to discuss). We already know MSE affect zygomatic width. The important thing to consider here is the place where the suture happens makes the enlargement of the lower maxilla higher than the upper maxilla which should in turn rotate the zygos upward ever so slightly
View attachment 629424

What is your age and race? Those two things matter for MSE.

Correct, dental tipping can distort measurments of IMW.

One of the studies showed a slight tilting of the zygos laterally but with very faint positive canthal tilt benefit. It can look like higher cheekbones but I think thats a bit of an illusion from how the skin is spread over the widened zygos.

 

[Ampere]

Imw is a correlation but not a 1:1 for maxilla width but it is generally correlated

Don’t worry about making your maxilla too wide, the only way it can become “too wide” as in problematic functionally is when condyle can’t fit in glenoid fossa, 12 mm expansion wouldn’t pose a problem for that anyways

the alar base depends on your nose right now, if it is already wide then maybe, if not then you will just how to see how the expansion plays out

Correct, the zygos should become higherset, but to the extent I don’t really know

Thanks man
Really seem MSE is the best thing to do right now for me, longish face but not horse face either, high set zygos but not wide enough, lifefuel tbh just gotta find someone to do it

What is your age and race? Those two things matter for MSE.

Correct, dental tipping can distort measurments of IMW.

One of the studies showed a slight tilting of the zygos laterally but with very faint positive canthal tilt benefit. It can look like higher cheekbones but I think thats a bit of an illusion from how the skin is spread over the widened zygos.

I'm 22 and white, never really got down to my exact pheno but I've got black hair and slightly green eyes if that helps

Unlucky for canthal tilt, but even if it's only a slight improvement it's still good tbh and yeah I think that overall it'll help with definition as the skin will have to stretch over a wider face, especially combined with MSDO, already have hollow cheeks under certain lightings, pretty sure I'd have them permanently with MSE+MSDO due to stretching

 

[highT]

That before/after photo is insane. Ronald looks so much better from the 3/4 angle now after the slight expansion of his midface.

 

[Ampere]

That before/after photo is insane. Ronald looks so much better from the 3/4 angle now after the slight expansion of his midface.

This is insane lifefuel for any zygocels tbh, even better if you have high set low mass zygos. If it goes well I could ascend .5 or even .75 PSL just from that

 

[highT]

This is insane lifefuel for any zygocels tbh, even better if you have high set low mass zygos. If it goes well I could ascend .5 or even .75 PSL just from that

You and me both brother. I have consulted w ortho who wants to give me MSE for 10mm expansion. This would be huge for me because my narrow zygos/midface is the #1 thing holding me back aesthetically. Plus I legitimately do have a narrow palate and breathing issues which would also be resolved. How old are you? My only concern is that I’m somewhat older (27) hopefully my suture will be able to split...

 

[Ampere]

You and me both brother. I have consulted w ortho who wants to give me MSE for 10mm expansion. This would be huge for me because my narrow zygos/midface is the #1 thing holding me back aesthetically. Plus I legitimately do have a narrow palate and breathing issues which would also be resolved. How old are you? My only concern is that I’m somewhat older (27) hopefully my suture will be able to split...

Am 22, hope too so. It's hard to measure IMW, I bite down a piece of paper then measure and I think I've got between 42 and 45, so not small but yet my nose is easily stuffed... If that's not too private, where are you from ? Officially there is only one ortho in my country which does MSE and he's an old fuck and not very close to where I live... So did you get to him from the official suppliers list or you lucked out ?
Btw does 10mm expansion automatically translates to 5mm zygos expansion on each side ? Also does the mouth get wider by a lot too ? It didn't get much wider for Ronald and I'm a narrow mouth cel

 

[JosephGarrot123]

I'm planning to get MSE for nasal breathing, with the added benefits to mouth and smile width, and zygos width would be dope if I get results in line with Ronald :
View attachment 629369

I've got a few questions :
- Is IMW really a good surrogate measure for maxilla width ? Can't the teeth's tilt affect that ? I can actually just feel my maxilla with my fingers and get an idea of where it is, it's a bit wider than my IPD currently, it it possible to make your maxilla too wide ?
- As seen in the above comparison, his alar base got wider, he also got a fucking 12mm widening, I'm planning on 6 or 8 max so mine would be lessened, but I also plan on doing a bimax with anterior impaction Lefort 1 for CCW with 4 mm advancement, I'm afraid cumulating MSE + this bimax would make my alar base really fucking wide and ugly, is rhino unavoidable when cumulating both of these procedures ?
-Shouldn't MSE make zygos slightly higher set ? (Already have high zygos this isn't an attempt to cope btw just trying to discuss). We already know MSE affect zygomatic width. The important thing to consider here is the place where the suture happens makes the enlargement of the lower maxilla higher than the upper maxilla which should in turn rotate the zygos upward ever so slightly
View attachment 629424

Should I get this if my zygos are wide as fuck? Worried that it might be comically wide

 

[Ampere]

Should I get this if my zygos are wide as fuck? Worried that it might be comically wide

Got a friend in this situation, he would legitimately need MSE but he has the same problem as you... IDK tbh.. If it comes to it you'll have to Eriksen maxx

 

[OldcelMillennial]

Am 22, hope too so. It's hard to measure IMW, I bite down a piece of paper then measure and I think I've got between 42 and 45, so not small but yet my nose is easily stuffed... If that's not too private, where are you from ? Officially there is only one ortho in my country which does MSE and he's an old fuck and not very close to where I live... So did you get to him from the official suppliers list or you lucked out ?
Btw does 10mm expansion automatically translates to 5mm zygos expansion on each side ? Also does the mouth get wider by a lot too ? It didn't get much wider for Ronald and I'm a narrow mouth cel

Don't forget there's retraction or recession or whatever you want to call it with MSE. You'll lose a few mm after you take it out. I think 10mm typically ends up being 6-8 mm after it's out.

 

[Ampere]

Don't forget there's retraction or recession or whatever you want to call it with MSE. You'll lose a few mm after you take it out. I think 10mm typically ends up being 6-8 mm after it's out.

Oh damn then I guess I'll go for 10mm

 

[highT]

Am 22, hope too so. It's hard to measure IMW, I bite down a piece of paper then measure and I think I've got between 42 and 45, so not small but yet my nose is easily stuffed... If that's not too private, where are you from ? Officially there is only one ortho in my country which does MSE and he's an old fuck and not very close to where I live... So did you get to him from the official suppliers list or you lucked out ?
Btw does 10mm expansion automatically translates to 5mm zygos expansion on each side ? Also does the mouth get wider by a lot too ? It didn't get much wider for Ronald and I'm a narrow mouth cel

I don’t know exactly how much 10mm expansion will translate to the midface/zygos, but I don’t think it is exactly a 1:1 ratio or 5mm per side. Probably a bit less, but any change in this area can make a huge difference. Your chances of success with MSE are really good because you are only 22 yrs old.
IMW is hard to measure, but for me it was easy, because I have a retainer from years ago (so I just measured the retainer itself) and wow it is SO NARROW literally my IMW is like 31mm. I honestly might need more than 10mm expansion. Oh and I am from the USA. I just got lucky by realizing I live near some doctors who offer MSE treatment

 

[Ampere]

I don’t know exactly how much 10mm expansion will translate to the midface/zygos, but I don’t think it is exactly a 1:1 ratio or 5mm per side. Probably a bit less, but any change in this area can make a huge difference. Your chances of success with MSE are really good because you are only 22 yrs old.
IMW is hard to measure, but for me it was easy, because I have a retainer from years ago (so I just measured the retainer itself) and wow it is SO NARROW literally my IMW is like 31mm. I honestly might need more than 10mm expansion. Oh and I am from the USA. I just got lucky by realizing I live near some doctors who offer MSE treatment

I lost my retainer JFL
I found the retailer that sells MSE in my country I've emailed them asking for a list of orthodontists that use MSE jfl

 

[Sergio-OMS]

Got a friend in this situation, he would legitimately need MSE but he has the same problem as you... IDK tbh.. If it comes to it you'll have to Eriksen maxx

then some small surgery under local can be done, a horizontal cut. That way there will be no zygomatic effect of the expansion.

 

[Ampere]

then some small surgery under local can be done, a horizontal cut. That way there will be no zygomatic effect of the expansion.

Wait for real ? like they dissociate the zygos from the lower maxilla ? I mean it seems feasible but wouldn't it heal mid expansion if it lasts something like 3 months ?

 

[Ocelot]

Doesn't Ead look like a chimp now?

 

[Ampere]

Doesn't Ead look like a chimp now?

Yeah Ead has really gone overboard tbh he's done every existing thing under the sun and is still planing more

But I don't think it's the MSE that made him look like a chimp. I'm a "kinda narrow" face cel I need MSE in any case

 

[Sergio-OMS]

but wouldn't it heal mid expansion if it lasts something like 3 months ?

Can you rephrase, please?

 

[Ampere]

Can you rephrase, please?

Yeah sorry, if they do a cut to prevent the zygomatics from being affected by the expansion of the maxilla, won't that cut heal at some point and then the expansion of the maxilla will once again affect the zygos?

 

[Nerfmonk]

How can people want to look like ead? Hes waaay uglier now

 

[Sergio-OMS]

Yeah sorry, if they do a cut to prevent the zygomatics from being affected by the expansion of the maxilla, won't that cut heal at some point and then the expansion of the maxilla will once again affect the zygos?

The expansion is done in a matter of days. That osteotomy heals several weeks after the expansion has ceased.

 

[Ampere]

How can people want to look like ead? Hes waaay uglier now

I don't want to look like him, at all, I want the same zygomatic expansion, I don't have the same base as him thus I won't end up like him, seems logical to me

The expansion is done in a matter of days. That osteotomy heals several weeks after the expansion has ceased.

Wait isn't MSE done over the span of 2 to 3 months ? Because what you responded to was the fact that a friend needs MSE but has already very wide zygos, so we're talknig MSE here not a few days

 

[Sergio-OMS]

Once you do that osteotomy there is almost no resistance, and at a rate of 4 turns per day you have a nice expansion in a few days. After that, the expander remains in place for six to twelve months.

do not generalise, by the way

 

[Ampere]

Once you do that osteotomy there is almost no resistance, and at a rate of 4 turns per day you have a nice expansion in a few days. After that, the expander remains in place for six to twelve months.

do not generalise, by the way

Oh really ? That's good news for them then, you say 6 to 12 months, is this necessary ? I was under the impression that I could be done in 3 months...

 

[Sergio-OMS]

The expander remains in place for some time decided by the orthodontist of the patient, stabilising the expansion while the rest of the orthodontic treatment is finished.

 

[Ampere]

The expander remains in place for some time decided by the orthodontist of the patient, stabilising the expansion while the rest of the orthodontic treatment is finished.

Wait are you really an OMS ? Thanks for the informations man, could it be paired with invisalign or do you need classic braces ?

 

[Sergio-OMS]

Wait are you really an OMS ? Thanks for the informations man, could it be paired with invisalign or do you need classic braces ?

that’s up to the patient and orthodontist to decide.

 

[Deleted member 8758]

Thanks man
Really seem MSE is the best thing to do right now for me, longish face but not horse face either, high set zygos but not wide enough, lifefuel tbh just gotta find someone to do it


I'm 22 and white, never really got down to my exact pheno but I've got black hair and slightly green eyes if that helps

Unlucky for canthal tilt, but even if it's only a slight improvement it's still good tbh and yeah I think that overall it'll help with definition as the skin will have to stretch over a wider face, especially combined with MSDO, already have hollow cheeks under certain lightings, pretty sure I'd have them permanently with MSE+MSDO due to stretching

Okay, thats a good age, right at the edge of ending growth so you might be in luck. Reason why I asked about race is that I heard that Asians tend to get more palatal tori (dense bone.) Im white (28 yo) but have slight palatal tori so my first MSE failed to break the suture, but corticopuncture solved it the 2nd installation. Your face should be more pliable.

An ortho might be able to upright your lower molars after expansion so MSDO may not be necessary for a recessed jaw. If you bring the jaw foreward (if the upper jaw is hindering its forward position) the arches can match the expanded upper jaw. Thats what my ortho is doing but we're only doing 8mm (34mm IMW to 42mm or more.) We're planning for FM to which my ortho isnt very excited about due to her stating its low effectiveness (I want to settle whether FM is cope or not) but there might be hope for you at your age.

Im not sure how it will affect the problem of long face but the expansion so far has compensated for the narrowness. If you are starting with a very narrow palate the therapeutic correction are the primary aesthetic changes. I dont think its helps much if you have a healthy dental arch already. I see it as more to do with bringing you closer to your genetic potential than to exceed what your body intended your face to look like. I think Ronald Ead is an example of surpassing his genetic potential so it looks excessive.