MSE + FM may not even result in bone borne anchored pulling

[retard]

Designing a functional facepuller is very challenging, uncomfortable, and takes a long time for change (6-18 months), I have been looking into getting MSE with a modified appliance to FP with, but now that i look into it, it seems that MSE still emulates tooth borne anchoring, instead of bone borne even though MSE is installed into the bone.

Look where the anchoring is where you would attach elastics to, it is not on the MSE implant itsself, but instead onto the tooth which the MSE implant wraps around, when pulling on the hook, the force would be pushing the tooth ridge through the alveolar bone (which also manifests in skeletal movement due to the weak sutures), but the forward force applies would not be going directly to the sutures like we would ideally want. Thinking about it applying forces directly to the MSE implant would do nothing more than bend the screws inside of the maxilla and scar the bone as too much force would be concentrated on such little bone. This isnt to say MSE + FPing isnt good, it will still yield the best results due to the suture disruption, but it is far from ideal considering it is considered tooth borne, as even greater results could be accomplished with MSE + bone anchored facepulling

thumb pulling may now be the holy grail of MSE, as regular tooth anchored facepulling can give still give insane results, extreme thumbpulling would give massive forces to the already extremely receptive sutures resulting in very fast and very drastic changes

 

[Deleted member 5892]

Do you think that maxillary advancement (including alveolar ridge) would be significant with MSE + Thumbpulling + FM ? Could my upper
teeth be advanced by 3mm at least in let's say 2-3 months?

 

[FutureMogger]

just stop being a pussy and wear the facepuller 24/7

 

[retard]

Do you think that maxillary advancement (including alveolar ridge) would be significant with MSE + Thumbpulling + FM ? Could my upper
teeth be advanced by 3mm at least in let's say 2-3 months?

yes it will still be significant, by far the best option to combine FPing with, yet still not ideal

just stop being a pussy and wear the facepuller 24/7

i dont even have a functional appliance that works yet, building it is very challenging

 

[Deleted member 5892]

Chang19 stops me from contacting doctors FUCK I alrdy have the money I need MSE now

 

[Ocelot]

This forum’s resident maxillaologist

 

[Deleted member 534]

I didn’t understand shit

Can I get MSE now or not?

 

[retard]

I didn’t understand shit

Can I get MSE now or not?

it is still good because it disrupts the sutures but it isn’t ideal in the way it pulls on the teeth, but you have to get braces after anyways so it isn’t that bad, just results could be giga fast; and I mean like extremely fucking fast if could use MSE to split the suture and do bone anchored pulling after

 

[Deleted member 2621]

Talked to some orthodontists they said a palatal expander does widen the maxilla. Friend of my dads is an orthodontist so i just send him an imprint and hes gonna sell me a palatal expander

 

[Deleted member 534]

it is still good because it disrupts the sutures but it isn’t ideal in the way it pulls on the teeth, but you have to get braces after anyways so it isn’t that bad, just results could be giga fast; and I mean like extremely fucking fast if could use MSE to split the suture and do bone anchored pulling after

That’s my plan nice ngl

Mse + braces + other surgeries

 

[varbrah]

Strong username to post content.

The rigid arms connecting to the molar bands translate the forces directly into the bone anchors. There is no way to significantly push the molars out of alignment with the expander and there is minimal screw bending/warping as they are bicortically engaged.

 

[retard]

Talked to some orthodontists they said a palatal expander does widen the maxilla. Friend of my dads is an orthodontist so i just send him an imprint and hes gonna sell me a palatal expander

Ye it does about 50% tooth movement and 50% maxilla movement, you will have to expand fast though, the slower you expand the less skeletal movement you get

 

[Deleted member 2621]

Ye it does about 50% tooth movement and 50% maxilla movement, you will have to expand fast though, the slower you expand the less skeletal movement you get

thanks, didnt know that. Read a study though which said the faster you expand, the less long-lived the results are gonna be

 

[retard]

Strong username to post content.

The rigid arms connecting to the molar bands translate the forces directly into the bone anchors. There is no way to significantly push the molars out of alignment with the expander and there is minimal screw bending/warping as they are bicortically engaged.

it is simply not possible to bend the hooks that far away from the mse implant and for them to remain stable, the torque grows exponentially the farther the distance you pull from on the metal band, you can bend a literal nail with ease if you pull at the ends, the screw wouldn’t bruise the bone now that I think of it, but the hooks would certainly not remain stable with the amount of torque that would be generated from the distance of pulling without a closer anchor, the tooth, also just because the molar is attached to the implant, it still gives it 0 inclination to transfer force to the implant, it will go straight into the tooth

thanks, didnt know that. Read a study though which said the faster you expand, the less long-lived the results are gonna be

that’s also true but that’s because they don’t have proper oral posture so it relapses anyways, slower expansion allows more time to build bone to stabilize it but that doesn’t matter because you can use your tongue to stabalize the results

 

[varbrah]

it is simply not possible to bend the hooks that far away from the mse implant and for them to remain stable, the torque grows exponentially the farther the distance you pull from on the metal band, you can bend a literal nail with ease if you pull at the ends, the screw wouldn’t bruise the bone now that I think of it, but the hooks would certainly not remain stable with the amount of torque that would be generated from the distance of pulling without a closer anchor, the tooth, also just because the molar is attached to the implant, it still gives it 0 inclination to transfer force to the implant, it will go straight into the tooth

Hooks are customized for protraction angle to minimize torque. They entire device + hooks are rigid metal (not soft metal like nails are made out of lol) and can easily withstand 1.5kg of force from rubber bands - so yes they remain stable.

In some cases, hooks aren’t even necessary and the rubber bands go straight onto a tiny hook on the band.

You are 100% wrong about the physics so stop pretending like you know what you’re talking about. Have you had MSE? You can literally feel the pulling occurring at the bone anchors after just a few minutes of FM.

 

[Darkstrand]

You can literally feel the pulling occurring at the bone anchors after just a few minutes of FM.

I was about to say we need someone that actually had MSE to tell us where you can feel the pulling

 

[varbrah]

I was about to say we need someone that actually had MSE to tell us where you can feel the pulling

Certainly all in the teeth and definitely not where you have 4 titanium osseo-integrated screws drilled through the palate all the way to the nasal cavity

 

[retard]

Hooks are customized for protraction angle to minimize torque. They entire device + hooks are rigid metal (not soft metal like nails are made out of lol) and can easily withstand 1.5kg of force from rubber bands - so yes they remain stable.

In some cases, hooks aren’t even necessary and the rubber bands go straight onto a tiny hook on the band.

You are 100% wrong about the physics so stop pretending like you know what you’re talking about. Have you had MSE? You can literally feel the pulling occurring at the bone anchors after just a few minutes of FM.

the tooth is the first thing that the forward force would come in contact to, it is wrapped around the tooth, just because it goes from the tooth it’s wrapped around to the implant doesn’t have some magical trick to skip over the tooth and put the force right into the implant

imagine you have some thing of Plato and do the same exact design as the pic in the op, when you pull the hook forward if you put a tic tac or something in the Plato it will fall right over even if you then have the tictac attached to a toothpic in the Plato, the tictac would fall over in the same exact apparatus but in Plato, meaning the tooth is receiving some force, it might not be all of the force, but I would guess it’s a decent bit of it

one question that should solve this if you payed attention to it

When facepulling did you get any tiny gaps in between the tooth the mse was hooked to and the tooth behind it? Like a very small agga gap?

 

[varbrah]

meaning the tooth is receiving some force, it might not be all of the force, but I would guess it’s a decent bit of it

The tooth is receiving *some* force, but it cannot move out of alignment with the expander due to the rigid arms connecting the molar bands to the body of the MSE. Even if it were, the MSE cannot migrate through the bone due to bicortical engagement of the screws - which would keep the molars firmly anchored in place.

When facepulling did you get any tiny gaps in between the tooth the mse was hooked to and the tooth behind it? Like a very small agga gap?

None. This simply doesn’t happen due to the aforementioned factors.

 

[retard]

The tooth is receiving *some* force, but it cannot move out of alignment with the expander due to the rigid arms connecting the molar bands to the body of the MSE. Even if it were, the MSE cannot migrate through the bone due to bicortical engagement of the screws - which would keep the molars firmly anchored in place.


None. This simply doesn’t happen due to the aforementioned factors.

I didn’t account for the piece of the metal in front of the tooth which would restrain it, the force would go from the hook to the tooth but then since there is another wrap around metal part that goes in front of the tooth, the force would go straight from the tooth right into the metal in front of it restraining it which would then lead the force to the implant, and due to the hook being at the top of the tooth, the torque wouldn’t apply much force to the root of the tooth preventing force being absorbed there, meaning that nearly all of it would just be shot back to the metal in the front of that tooth and ultimately back into the implant and then to the bone

ok I understand it now, mse pulling is still the goat, if just the implant was made slightly more forward in the palate for ideal CCW
Also @varbrah can I ask you some questions?
How long did you do protraction for?
How much force per side?
How many mms of forward growth?

thx

 

[curryslayerordeath]

I didn’t account for the piece of the metal in front of the tooth which would restrain it, the force would go from the hook to the tooth but then since there is another wrap around metal part that goes in front of the tooth, the force would go straight from the tooth right into the metal in front of it restraining it which would then lead the force to the implant, and due to the hook being at the top of the tooth, the torque wouldn’t apply much force to the root of the tooth preventing force being absorbed there, meaning that nearly all of it would just be shot back to the metal in the front of that tooth and ultimately back into the implant and then to the bone

ok I understand it now, mse pulling is still the goat, if just the implant was made slightly more forward in the palate for ideal CCW
Also @varbrah can I ask you some questions?
How long did you do protraction for?
How much force per side?
How many mms of forward growth?

thx

Read the threads online, you can find the answers to all of your discrepancies. Also, your understanding of torque (as a general concept) is wrong and the force vectors aren't the same as what you describe.

 

[Deleted member 6403]

that’s also true but that’s because they don’t have proper oral posture so it relapses anyways, slower expansion allows more time to build bone to stabilize it but that doesn’t matter because you can use your tongue to stabalize the results

how many turns a day do you recommend for a palate expander? I have some crowding on my top teeth, I bought one off of braces shop recently.

 

[retard]

Read the threads online, you can find the answers to all of your discrepancies. Also, your understanding of torque (as a general concept) is wrong and the force vectors aren't the same as what you describe.

Where did i go wrong then? The hook is anchored around the tooth, if it wasn’t for the frontal part of the molar lock then it would shift the maxilla teeth forward, but the acceleration that would be going to the teeth is transferred to the frontal rod that restrains it

 

[Lev Peshkov]

Lol, there are black pilled people who are happy to belive looks are entirely genetic while they cope with mse?!! Over. Hey at lest you'll have a mogger palate! I'm sure women will live your deformed place and gap teeth!