The overwhelming case against Free Will

[nordsmog]

I’ll be brief with my explanations here, but elaborate in the comment section more if anyone is curious.

The argument against free will at the most fundamental level, “am I in control of any decision I make?”, boils down to determinism and the fact that every decision is based off a want and that you have no control over what you want. The ramifications of this being granted essentially leaves you as an observer stuck in a body/brain.

How every decision you make is based off a “greater want”

Take a scenario where you’re offered the choice between chocolate and vanilla ice cream. Let’s say you pick vanilla, why did you pick vanilla over chocolate? Of course the only explanation is that you wanted vanilla more than you wanted chocolate ice cream for a variety of reasons, such as previous positive experiences with the flavor, a genetic propensity towards liking the taste of vanilla, it’s color and your perceived associations of that, etc etc.

I’ll run through a few questions you’ll often get when posing this part of the argument, and explain how they all actually have a greater underlying want behind them.

“Okay, but I don’t WANT to work/go to the gym but I do it anyways”
The problem here is that you’re only focusing on the initial negative experience of working for example, and ignoring the positive experience (typically earning money) which drives the reason behind why you made the decision to apply for the job in the first place and continue to clock in everyday. You work at this particular job because you value the combined pros (earning money, socializing, using that money to pay for things like bills a car tuition etc) and cons (the negative experience of actually working: cleaning dishes, working the register, filling out spread sheets, etc) more than just staying at home or working at another job with less perceived benefits.
TLDR: You actually just want to go to work more than you want to stay at home

“What if I just choose chocolate to prove a point?”
This question runs into the exact same problem as stated earlier, you just want to prove a point that you have “free will” more than you want vanilla ice cream for all the potential reasons listed above.

Think about this through and through, I guarantee you that there’s no decision you can think of that doesn’t have a hidden “greater want” behind it. Remember that being forced to do something is not free either (which is its own argument, but also not technically even a thing if you break it down anyways. If I told you I was going to shoot you if you didn’t delete your .org account, you could still choose to not delete it and let me shoot you, this would still just be you wanting to keep your .org account up more than you want to continue living even if the decision is obvious.)

Sure, but how do I not have control over what I want? I can change my “want” to eat junk food into a desire for losing weight and getting a good physique.

This unfortunately runs into the same exact problem as mentioned earlier, and is probably the biggest factor behind why free will seems so intuitive to us at first glance. What you’re actually doing here is just adding a second want, “I want to start wanting to go to the gym more than I want to not start wanting to go to the gym”. Then you ask the same question, why do you want to change your want of going to the gym more than not? This would be for more reasons that require their own wants to change with reasons all the way back into an infinite regress. Do you sort of see where I’m going here?

Determinism

As eluded to, there’s this sort of “infinite regress” of reasons behind why you made a decision. Everything that happens has a cause before it, and the issue is that if you trace the line back you’ll always get to a point before you were born all the way up to the beginning of the universe. This is the core idea behind determinism, and while technically untrue because of the seeming randomness of quantum superposition, it’s important to remember that by definition something being random is not under your control.

To help visualize this, ask yourself what the factors are behind any decision. If you break it down, it becomes clear that the only factors are your genetic makeup and past experiences (essentially just memories, and everything that branches off from that such as current knowledge). Take a second and think about this, I guarantee you can’t find any other factor behind why you make a decision. Now apply that logic across the line of all decisions you’ve ever made, leading up to the first decision likely inside of the womb, something insignificant like opening your eyes or moving a limb. Notice how nowhere down that line does “free will” or any control whatsoever sneak in, that first decision is based entirely off past experiences (and genetic makeup but we already know this is outside of your control) outside of your control. Hence, that first decision that was entirely outside of your control affects the 2nd decision and the 3rd all the way up to now.

As demonstrated, the consequences of this being true leaves you as purely an observer in a body/brain with all the decision predetermined and outside of your control. Remember that trying to redefine the term “free will” to something along the lines of “being able to do whatever I want”, is essentially saying “I can do whatever I want as long as it’s this specific thing I have no control over”.

I hope this outline of the arguments has convinced you against the case for free will, or at the very least allowed you to consider both perspectives of the argument. I’ll link a few interesting videos on the subject below if anyone is interested

 

[OldRooster]

I guess your point was that we did not choose to not read your thread, but that it was the universe that predetermined that we would not read your thread. (using some metaphysical constructs no doubt)

 

[murdah]

Bookmarked

 

[ElTruecel]

Yea it’s kinda water free will isn’t real in a broad sense

 

[butterworld]

Water

 

[nordsmog]

Yea it’s kinda water free will isn’t real in a broad sense

It’s not water though, I rarely (personally never, but I’m sure it happens) see the argument against free will at a fundamental level even in communities as deep into behavior as this. It’s usually something along the lines of “genetics and environment determine this % of your life”, when in reality every decision no matter how simple is outside of your control.

 

[noobs]

I’ll be brief with my explanations here, but elaborate in the comment section more if anyone is curious.

The argument against free will at the most fundamental level, “am I in control of any decision I make?”, boils down to determinism and the fact that every decision is based off a want and that you have no control over what you want. The ramifications of this being granted essentially leaves you as an observer stuck in a body/brain.

How every decision you make is based off a “greater want”

Take a scenario where you’re offered the choice between chocolate and vanilla ice cream. Let’s say you pick vanilla, why did you pick vanilla over chocolate? Of course the only explanation is that you wanted vanilla more than you wanted chocolate ice cream for a variety of reasons, such as previous positive experiences with the flavor, a genetic propensity towards liking the taste of vanilla, it’s color and your perceived associations of that, etc etc.

I’ll run through a few questions you’ll often get when posing this part of the argument, and explain how they all actually have a greater underlying want behind them.

“Okay, but I don’t WANT to work/go to the gym but I do it anyways”
The problem here is that you’re only focusing on the initial negative experience of working for example, and ignoring the positive experience (typically earning money) which drives the reason behind why you made the decision to apply for the job in the first place and continue to clock in everyday. You work at this particular job because you value the combined pros (earning money, socializing, using that money to pay for things like bills a car tuition etc) and cons (the negative experience of actually working: cleaning dishes, working the register, filling out spread sheets, etc) more than just staying at home or working at another job with less perceived benefits.
TLDR: You actually just want to go to work more than you want to stay at home

“What if I just choose chocolate to prove a point?”
This question runs into the exact same problem as stated earlier, you just want to prove a point that you have “free will” more than you want vanilla ice cream for all the potential reasons listed above.

Think about this through and through, I guarantee you that there’s no decision you can think of that doesn’t have a hidden “greater want” behind it. Remember that being forced to do something is not free either (which is its own argument, but also not technically even a thing if you break it down anyways. If I told you I was going to shoot you if you didn’t delete your .org account, you could still choose to not delete it and let me shoot you, this would still just be you wanting to keep your .org account up more than you want to continue living even if the decision is obvious.)

Sure, but how do I not have control over what I want? I can change my “want” to eat junk food into a desire for losing weight and getting a good physique.

This unfortunately runs into the same exact problem as mentioned earlier, and is probably the biggest factor behind why free will seems so intuitive to us at first glance. What you’re actually doing here is just adding a second want, “I want to start wanting to go to the gym more than I want to not start wanting to go to the gym”. Then you ask the same question, why do you want to change your want of going to the gym more than not? This would be for more reasons that require their own wants to change with reasons all the way back into an infinite regress. Do you sort of see where I’m going here?

Determinism

As eluded to, there’s this sort of “infinite regress” of reasons behind why you made a decision. Everything that happens has a cause before it, and the issue is that if you trace the line back you’ll always get to a point before you were born all the way up to the beginning of the universe. This is the core idea behind determinism, and while technically untrue because of the seeming randomness of quantum superposition, it’s important to remember that by definition something being random is not under your control.

To help visualize this, ask yourself what the factors are behind any decision. If you break it down, it becomes clear that the only factors are your genetic makeup and past experiences (essentially just memories, and everything that branches off from that such as current knowledge). Take a second and think about this, I guarantee you can’t find any other factor behind why you make a decision. Now apply that logic across the line of all decisions you’ve ever made, leading up to the first decision likely inside of the womb, something insignificant like opening your eyes or moving a limb. Notice how nowhere down that line does “free will” or any control whatsoever sneak in, that first decision is based entirely off past experiences (and genetic makeup but we already know this is outside of your control) outside of your control. Hence, that first decision that was entirely outside of your control affects the 2nd decision and the 3rd all the way up to now.

As demonstrated, the consequences of this being true leaves you as purely an observer in a body/brain with all the decision predetermined and outside of your control. Remember that trying to redefine the term “free will” to something along the lines of “being able to do whatever I want”, is essentially saying “I can do whatever I want as long as it’s this specific thing I have no control over”.

I hope this outline of the arguments has convinced you against the case for free will, or at the very least allowed you to consider both perspectives of the argument. I’ll link a few interesting videos on the subject below if anyone is interested

everything isn’t exactly determined by the beginning because we have found things that are truly random so if we multiply the effects over time in the universe it creates complete randomness

free will is as free as the stock market, sure maybe everything can be predicted if you take an image of the universe and you calculate the future for 100 years at 99% accuracy outcome but because the system is so complex it might aswell be unpredictable

lookup complex systems theory

 

[nordsmog]

everything isn’t exactly determined by the beginning because we have found things that are truly random so if we multiply the effects over time in the universe it creates complete randomness

free will is as free as the stock market, sure maybe everything can be predicted if you take an image of the universe and you calculate the future for 100 years at 99% accuracy outcome but because the system is so complex it might aswell be unpredictable

lookup complex systems theory

I already addressed this, I’m assuming you’re referring to quantum superposition which appears to be random. The issue is you have equally as little (meaning 0) control over something if it’s random or if it’s determined.

It doesn’t become “unpredictable” in that sense aside from potentially true randomness, if you had enough information you’d be able to predict everything that ever happens. This is only part of my argument, but notice how everything is either random or determined and in neither scenario do you have control.

 

[noobs]

I already addressed this, I’m assuming you’re referring to quantum superposition which appears to be random. The issue is you have equally as little (meaning 0) control over something if it’s random or if it’s determined.

It doesn’t become “unpredictable” in that sense aside from potentially true randomness, if you had enough information you’d be able to predict everything that ever happens. This is only part of my argument, but notice how everything is either random or determined and in neither scenario do you have control.

no not just that, radioactive decay is completely random

 

[nordsmog]

no not just that, radioactive decay is completely random

I’m not quite sure if that’s true, but whether it is or not has no relevance on free will. Again, you have no control over either so nowhere does “free will” sneak into the equation

 

[noobs]

I’m not quite sure if that’s true, but whether it is or not has no relevance on free will. Again, you have no control over either so nowhere does “free will” sneak into the equation

I agree that there’s no free will but everything is not predetermined

 

[Bonecel01]

"In a forest alone there is no freedom to seek" -Hayek
Apart from the metaphysical aura behind this word, freedom is used in the human language with a clear end: to be free of something or to get something that will make us free. The first one is called negative freedom, a person desires to not talk to other because he doesn't want to. Your thread is only focused in the "want to=desire": human actions are desired but not comprehended, not every action you make has to have a reason and if you say it's determined by other things what you mean is that we live in the world, trying to deny freedom because other beings exist is a childish retarded argument because it's obvious that we are not alone but what remains to a person is the will, therefore his actions are consequences of it (to act-to change).

If we were alone, living like a spirit with no desire or thought then the word freedom would not make sense and this is where the second use of freedom is placed: the positive one. For example, I would be free if I find the keys to a closed room. What the person means here in the positive use of the word it's power, and in the negative use of the word is autonomy. Both are signs of power but autonomy contrary to just power doesn't involves others, this is why the liberal arguments for positive rights are flawed. When you decide is where the freedom is executed, not when you desire. The will cannot act without judging the world, if the imagination desires something you can't have it's not because there is no free will.

 

[Whatever]

Legit thread. My favorite quote like this is “man can do what he wants, but he can’t will what he wants”. And also “it’s not your fault, but it is your responsibility”.

Whenever you make a choice, you’re choosing between things that fell into place through an infinitely long process of cause and effect. And then after you make that choice, it’s out of your hands again. So your choice or action was only this minuscule part in things.

Also, what people is want isn’t really determined by them. You can choose vanilla ice cream, but you didn’t choose to like vanilla.

I’ve always believed that we’re living in a pre-determined universe, it’s why black pills weren’t difficult for me to swallow.

 

[bourgeoizyzz]

ironic that only an act of free will could cause someone to unironically read op

 

[MostGLSlayer]

My dog has the free will to shit on my carpet but then I’ll use my free will to beat the living fuck out of him. Was it predetermined that I beat my dog’s ass or what’s that my free will?

 

[Bonecel01]

ironic that only an act of free will could cause someone to unironically read op

Low IQ cels won't read this, they don't ever open books. Who cares about philosophy and science anyways. You don't know why you readed it but it means a lot from what you are, who's gonna read satanist books? A satanist. Who's gonna slap Stacy? Chad. I am free to do what's in my power.

 

[Sny]

So you are saying we are stuck in a closed butterfly effect esque system(universe)?

And as a result of that very same system of chaos. It has molded us as biological computers that may try infer snippets about our perceived ability to freely select what to do without realizing that everything is predetermined as well as the encompassing environment(another uncontrollable variable). If you technically had a device that could stimulate the universe this could be a perfect test bed for this hypothesis.

Acts such as moving school would irreparably change your life in ways one can't imagine and it's not just a mere change of friends. It's also the change of your mindset, your career choice, your potential partner etc.

Hell it could be even more mundane such as walking a bit weirdly which as a result causes you to tilt off. You trip and fall and a few documents release from your grip. You get help from a ongoing passerby who is urgent to assist. He introduces himself to you as "Tom". You don't know him and you are very grateful for his helpful hand inwhich you and him chatter a bit. He talks about about a tournament being held a few blocks behind you.

Turns out it's a preliminary baseball event that not only Tom but also you are an avid fan of. You know where the location of this place is held and after Tom helps you, you say your goodbyes. A few days later, you go to this very same tournament to check what's happening before heading back to your town a few miles away.

A hand is waving towards you, oddly similar to the one that helped with the retrieval of your documents a week ago. It's Tom! This goes on and on until a friendship is established. You have now known this person for years.

Now what would happen if you walked properly? Well you arrive to the post office to unload some documents. You arrive back home with no knowledge of a tournament being held, and even if you knew did you really know anyone there?

Point is, there are so many alternate timelines you have zero control over that always happen simultaneously. Now this doesn't relate directly with what you said but helps to encapsulate just how little(if at all) of what we have control over. Things like this are likely what case existential dread.

 

[nordsmog]

"In a forest alone there is no freedom to seek" -Hayek
Apart from the metaphysical aura behind this word, freedom is used in the human language with a clear end: to be free of something or to get something that will make us free. The first one is called negative freedom, a person desires to not talk to other because he doesn't want to. Your thread is only focused in the "want to=desire": human actions are desired but not comprehended, not every action you make has to have a reason and if you say it's determined by other things what you mean is that we live in the world, trying to deny freedom because other beings exist is a childish retarded argument because it's obvious that we are not alone but what remains to a person is the will, therefore his actions are consequences of it (to act-to change).

If we were alone, living like a spirit with no desire or thought then the word freedom would not make sense and this is where the second use of freedom is placed: the positive one. For example, I would be free if I find the keys to a closed room. What the person means here in the positive use of the word its power, and in the negative use of the word is autonomy. Both are signs of power but autonomy contrary to just power doesn't involves others, this is why the liberal arguments for positive rights are flawed. When you decide is where the freedom is executed, not when you desire. The will cannot act without judging the world, if the imagination desires something you can't have it's not because there is no free will.

World salad aside, there’s always an actual reason behind you made a decision, and if you just threw your arms up in the air and chose something at random or whatever not only is something being “random” by definition outside of your control, but there’s also a reason why you decided to choose something at random with its own reasons in the first place and so on until you get to a point before you were born.

Yes you are “free” from the room in this hypothetical scenario if you find the keys, just for reasons outside of your control. Ask yourself why you found the keys? Then look at those reasons and ask yourself why you’re the kind of person to have ended up finding the keys, or were in the correct circumstances to know this particular thing or even just so happened to check in the right place and find it. There’s literally always a reason, even if not obvious at first. Every thing that happens has a cause, if you accept this you automatically grant that this line of causality stretches across your entire life and before you were born all the way up to the beginning of the universe.

 

[nordsmog]

So you are saying we are stuck in a closed butterfly effect esque system(universe)?

And as a result of that very same system of chaos. It has molded us as biological computers that may try infer snippets about our perceived ability to freely select what to do without realizing that everything is predetermined as well as the encompassing environment(another uncontrollable variable). If you technically had a device that could stimulate the universe this could be a perfect test bed for this hypothesis.

Acts such as moving school would irreparably change your life in ways one can't imagine and it's not just a mere change of friends. It's also the change of your mindset, your career choice, your potential partner etc.

Hell it could be even more mundane such as walking a bit weirdly which as a result causes you to tilt off. You trip and fall and a few documents release from your grip. You get help from a ongoing passerby who is urgent to assist. He introduces himself to you as "Tom". You don't know him and you are very grateful for his helpful hand inwhich you and him chatter a bit. He talks about about a tournament being held a few blocks behind you.

Turns out it's a preliminary baseball event that not only Tom but also you are an avid fan of. You know where the location of this place is held and after Tom helps you, you say your goodbyes. A few days later, you go to this very same tournament to check what's happening before heading back to your town a few miles away.

A hand is waving towards you, oddly similar to the one that helped with the retrieval of your documents a week ago. It's Tom! This goes on and on until a friendship is established. You have now known this person for years.

Now what would happen if you walked properly? Well you arrive to the post office to unload some documents. You arrive back home with no knowledge of a tournament being held, and even if you knew did you really know anyone there?

Point is, there are so many alternate timelines you have zero control over that always happen simultaneously. Now this doesn't relate directly with what you said but helps to encapsulate just how little(if at all) of what we have control over. Things like this are likely what case existential dread.

Yeah I mean sure, that adds to the unpredictability of life because of how much causality can be distributed. It’s actually even more fundamental than that though

 

[nordsmog]

I agree that there’s no free will but everything is not predetermined

Yeah I mean I agree in the sense that everything is either determined or random. Either there’s a cause behind something happening (determined) or there’s not (random). No room for free will

 

[Bonecel01]

World salad aside, there’s always an actual reason behind you made a decision, and if you just threw your arms up in the air and chose something at random or whatever not only is something being “random” by definition outside of your control, but there’s also a reason why you decided to choose something at random with its own reasons in the first place and so on until you get to a point before you were born.

Yes you are “free” from the room in this hypothetical scenario if you find the keys, just for reasons outside of your control. Ask yourself why you found the keys? Then look at those reasons and ask yourself why you’re the kind of person to have ended up finding the keys, or were in the correct circumstances to know this particular thing or even just so happened to check in the right place and find it. There’s literally always a reason, even if not obvious at first. Every thing that happens has a cause, if you accept this you automatically grant that this line of causality stretches across your entire life and before you were born all the way up to the beginning of the universe.

No it's not. Reason = thought. Not everything we do is a result of thought, most actions are result of sensations. If something hurts me, I will try to get rid of it. If I have the need to shit, I will find the way to do it or I might shit myself. Reason is not causality, causality doesn't exist in nature. Things are probable, different possible scenenarios where things occur differently. We can imagine infinite scenenarios where our cold approach ends up succeeding but we cannot actually know how it's going to end. Probability = luck, phenomenon happening everywhere and our thoughts try to order these different phenomenons to create reasons which might not be true, we created the blackpill to explain dating but this is not an infallible view of the world. Science works like this, no truth is eternal.

 

[Xtra]

Another day another schizo thread

 

[longjohnmong]

sophistry

 

[Runawaytictac]

Dnr

 

[bourgeoizyzz]

Who cares about philosophy

legit.

As for science, the free will debate has never been adequately addressed by science. Probably never will be, since nobody even knows what a "free will" or a "determinism" even is.

Total midwit subject

 

[nordsmog]

legit.

As for science, the free will debate has never been adequately addressed by science. Probably never will be, since nobody even knows what a "free will" or a "determinism" even is.

Total midwit subject

How does nobody know what these are? We have a very clearly defined definition of both, particular determinism. And yes, the question of free will is naturally among the most studied topic in fields like neuroscience and biology. There’s many good studies showing strong evidence that your subconscious makes the decision a fraction of a second before conscious intent is manifested, but is not required for this argument

 

[nordsmog]

No it's not. Reason = thought. Not everything we do is a result of thought, most actions are result of sensations. If something hurts me, I will try to get rid of it. If I have the need to shit, I will find the way to do it or I might shit myself. Reason is not causality, causality doesn't exist in nature. Things are probable, different possible scenenarios where things occur differently. We can imagine infinite scenenarios where our cold approach ends up succeeding but we cannot actually know how it's going to end. Probability = luck, phenomenon happening everywhere and our thoughts try to order these different phenomenons to create reasons which might not be true, we created the blackpill to explain dating but this is not an infallible view of the world. Science works like this, no truth is eternal.

The sensation is still a “thought” though, as well as your reaction to it. if your point is that when I touch my hand on a stove for example, I react instantly and take my hand off without conscious intent, you still run into the same problem. That is not under your control.

Causality is always true bar superposition, something happens because of a previous cause before it. And if something happening DOESN’T have a cause, it is by definition random and outside of your control. Again, nowhere does freedom sneak into the equation. The reason you don’t know what’s going to happen during a cold approach is because you don’t have access to enough information + perfect rationale and understanding. If you knew where every particle was, the forces acting on them and its functions down to their most intricate parts, you’d by definition be able to predict everything that ever happens again bar superposition. This is a problem of ignorance

 

[bourgeoizyzz]

How does nobody know what these are? We have a very clearly defined definition of both, particular determinism. And yes, the question of free will is naturally among the most studied topic in fields like neuroscience and biology. There’s many good studies showing strong evidence that your subconscious makes the decision a fraction of a second before conscious intent is manifested, but is not required for this argument

subconscious is not determinism. conscious is not free will

you're asking if willed behavior is conscious or not.

The question at hand is whether behavior is a product of one outdated and poorly defined construct or another outdated and poorly defined construct.

 

[radicalrationalist]

there is no free will, there is only playing your part in the chain of causality. the universe can be thought of as a sandbox simulation with prescripted rules, and everything anyone does is the result of those rules

 

[ambi]

i used my free will to stop reading after a few words

 

[noodlelover]

DNR

But we have the same amount of free will as Ai.

 

[JohnDoe]

We have free will, God has made it so. DNR btw