NeanderthalMax
Just don't shower, bro
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Lengthier post, but if the topic of frame interests you this can be a good read. Most long paragraphs will have a summary at the bottom of it in bold for those in a hurry.
There are 5 physical attributes a guy has that women are attracted to: face, height, frame, penis and muscularity.
Today we will be discussing frame.
There are 2 components to frame: Limb bone structure and torso bone structure.
I might make a second part to this focusing on limb bone structure (which involves looking at the size of wrists, elbows, knees and ankles and limb length), but today I will focus on looking at torso bone structure (shoulder and waist. Rib cage is part of it too, but it is less important and I will not be discussed in this post)
Summary: Today we will only focus on the shoulders and waist components.
SHOULDERS
In order to quantify and look at the data regarding shoulder frame we will discuss bideltoid measurements. If you don’t know what a bideltoid measurement is, here is a picture:
It is the length of the straight line between the outermost point on both of your deltoids. There are guides on how to measure it online, if you are curious about your measurement look up how to measure.
After looking at a few studies for the American population, I have come to the conclusion that the average bideltoid width for a non-overweight/obese and non-gymmaxed American is 18.5 inches. Yes there are a few studies that claim a bit higher than this, but you have to remember that most of these studies are done with overweight people adding width from fat, or in the military which is a group of higher testosterone men (they self-select) and they also have higher muscularity than the average population.
Summary: Average bideltoid width for non-overweight/obese and non-gymmaxed American is 18.5 inches.
The average person can naturally add 30-40 lbs of pure muscle if they consistently weight train for 5+ years.
Based on personal experience and the experience of a few friends, you can roughly add 1 inch to your bideltoid width after adding 25 lbs of muscle (this may vary from individual to individual, but this is a good rule of thumb)
Summary: rule of thumb is 25 lbs of muscle roughly equates to 1 inch bideltoid gain
If the average person can put on naturally 35 lbs of pure muscle over a 5 year period of good training and diet, this means they can roughly add 1.4 inches to their bideltoid width by training.
It stands to reason that the average gymmaxed bideltoid width is probably around 18.5 + 1.4 = 19.9 or 20 inches to round it nicely. This is assuming they are at a healthy and lean 10-15% bodyfat.
Steroids usually allow you to go 20-25 lbs beyond your natural limit, that would equate to about an extra 1 inch gain, so the average steroid user had a bideltoid of roughly 20.75 inches to 21 inches.
Now the next important statistic when looking at frames is the standard deviation from the average. Most studies I read had a standard deviation of roughly 1 inch for the bideltoid width. You don’t need to understand what this means, but this is important if you want to understand the table that I am about to make rather than just using it.
Summary: Standard deviation for bideltoid width seems to be roughly 1 inch.
TABLE
Based on the mean and standard deviation we can make a table that shows how rare each bideltoid width is by looking at percentiles for different measurements.
The following table is for people who have achieved, or are close to achieving their natural muscular limit, we will call this group the gymmaxed people. As I stated above the gymmax people average bideltoid width is probably around 20 inches, if you wanted to make a lean, non-gymaxed table just subtract 1.5 from every value, or a table for steroid users you would add 1 inch to every value. Here is the table:
18 inches - 48 in 50 gymmaxed people are above this (bottom 2%) 2ND PERCENTILE (Narrow)
19 inches - 5 in 6 gymmaxed people are above this (bottom 16%) 16TH PERCENTILE (Narrowish)
20 inches - 1 in 2 gymmaxed people are above this (middle 50%) 50TH PERCENTILE (Average)
21 inches - 1 in 6 gymmaxed people are above this (top 16%) 84TH PERCENTILE (Broadish)
22 inches - 1 in 50 gymmaxed people are above this (top 2%) 98TH PERCENTILE (Broad)
23 inches - 1 in 760 gymmaxed people are above this (top 0.13%) 99.87TH PERCENTILE (Really Broad)
24 inches - 1 in 31,000 gymmaxed people are above this (top 0.0032%) 99.9968TH PERCENTILE (Insanely Broad)
25 inches - 1 in 3 million gymmaxed people are above this (top 0.000003%) 100TH PERCENTILE
26 inches - 1 in 800 million gymmaxed people are above this (top 0.000000125%) 100TH PERCENTILE
27 inches - 1 in billions of gymmaxed people are above this (top 0.000000000275%) 100TH PERCENTILE
CONCLUSIONS
This means that a lean (10-15% bodyfat) person who has reached their natural genetic muscularity potential and is 1 in 760 (basically the broadest senior guy who lifts at an average American high school)would have a bideltoid of roughly 23 inches.
Based on the above table the broadest, lean, natural people in the world are in the 26-27 inches range (These are 1 in a billion kind of people, you will most likely never see one). And if they used steroids and got fatter (Like strongman and powerlifters) they would probably be getting closer to the 28-29 inches range.
The average person sees about 1.5 million unique people throughout their lifetime, based on this table the broadest, lean, naturally gymmaxed person you will ever see out on the street will have a bideltoid of roughly 24.5 inches. That’s after 80 years of living and seeing people.
For skeptics
I am sure skeptics will come and say that they have 22 inches bideltoid non-gymmaxed shoulders so this can’t be accurate. Remember that 22 inches non-gymmaxed is as rare as being 6’7” (2 meters) and there are probably people on this forum who are 6’7”, but just because they are here you don’t think that the average person’s height isn’t 5’9” - 5’10” (175-178 cm). By the same logic just because there are some outliers does not mean this is not accurate.
Also Keep in mind that broader people are more likely to brag about their width, so most data points you find online will be in the upper end of the spectrum (Ex: plenty of guys here talk about being 6’4” (193 cm) but I have never seen anyone talk about being 5’2” (157 cm) even though both heights are just as rare.) In other words, there is a self-selection bias that skews the data.
Here is an example, all of us would agree that this guy has a god-tier frame and probably assume this guy must be in the 24-25 inches bideltoid range
Well not necessarily, based on research I developed a method for estimating people’s bideltoid width from pictures. I won’t go into detail about it in this post. But based on my methods, if this guy has an average face width (bizygomatic) of 14 cm, his bideltoid is only 22 inches. If he has a bigger head of 15 cm (1 in 20 people) Then his bideltoid is 23.5. You have to always account for the angle of the picture as well as the fact he is most likely flexing and has a pump (this can add 1 inch to your bideltoid). He doesn’t look like he has a huge head, so he probably has a no-pump and no-flex bideltoid width of 22-23 inches. Which is in the broad/very broad range, but not insanely broad.
Summary: This guy’s bideltoid is most likely in the 22-23 inches range.
People really exaggerate their bideltoid width, the truth is that if your measurement while lean is above 19.5 non-gymmaxed or 21 gymmaxed you are in the good range and the reason you don’t get pussy is not your frame.
What should your goal bideltoid be: From my research you ideally want a bideltoid width that is 3.8 times your bizygomatic width (Anything in the 3.5-4.0 looks manly, below that you look like a kid). So the average person with a 5.5 inches (14 cm) bizygomatic width probably wants around 21 inches bideltoid. This would be 22 inches if you are pumped and flexing for a photoshoot like most guys’ pictures online.
WAIST
Waist is pretty straight forward, The widest part of your waist should look at least 1.618 times smaller than your shoulder in a picture. In order to check where you are at, place a camera 6ft (2 meter)+ away from you. The camera should be leveled with the ground and aiming straight at your sternum. Take a picture while not flexing or having a pump. On the picture measure the width of the widest part of your shoulder, after measure the width at the widest part of your waist and divide the first measurement by the second (I count pixels for this). If it is above 1.618 you are in the good zone. Ideal is probably around 1.8-1.9, anything above that you start looking comical like this guy:
I rushed this post, so there could be some errors. But this should give you an idea of where your shoulder/waist frame is at and how much you can improve by gymmaxing (On average about 1.5 inches naturally and 2.5 with steroids assuming you start at an already fairly lean bodyfat of 10-15%)
There are 5 physical attributes a guy has that women are attracted to: face, height, frame, penis and muscularity.
Today we will be discussing frame.
There are 2 components to frame: Limb bone structure and torso bone structure.
I might make a second part to this focusing on limb bone structure (which involves looking at the size of wrists, elbows, knees and ankles and limb length), but today I will focus on looking at torso bone structure (shoulder and waist. Rib cage is part of it too, but it is less important and I will not be discussed in this post)
Summary: Today we will only focus on the shoulders and waist components.
SHOULDERS
In order to quantify and look at the data regarding shoulder frame we will discuss bideltoid measurements. If you don’t know what a bideltoid measurement is, here is a picture:
It is the length of the straight line between the outermost point on both of your deltoids. There are guides on how to measure it online, if you are curious about your measurement look up how to measure.
After looking at a few studies for the American population, I have come to the conclusion that the average bideltoid width for a non-overweight/obese and non-gymmaxed American is 18.5 inches. Yes there are a few studies that claim a bit higher than this, but you have to remember that most of these studies are done with overweight people adding width from fat, or in the military which is a group of higher testosterone men (they self-select) and they also have higher muscularity than the average population.
Summary: Average bideltoid width for non-overweight/obese and non-gymmaxed American is 18.5 inches.
The average person can naturally add 30-40 lbs of pure muscle if they consistently weight train for 5+ years.
Based on personal experience and the experience of a few friends, you can roughly add 1 inch to your bideltoid width after adding 25 lbs of muscle (this may vary from individual to individual, but this is a good rule of thumb)
Summary: rule of thumb is 25 lbs of muscle roughly equates to 1 inch bideltoid gain
If the average person can put on naturally 35 lbs of pure muscle over a 5 year period of good training and diet, this means they can roughly add 1.4 inches to their bideltoid width by training.
It stands to reason that the average gymmaxed bideltoid width is probably around 18.5 + 1.4 = 19.9 or 20 inches to round it nicely. This is assuming they are at a healthy and lean 10-15% bodyfat.
Steroids usually allow you to go 20-25 lbs beyond your natural limit, that would equate to about an extra 1 inch gain, so the average steroid user had a bideltoid of roughly 20.75 inches to 21 inches.
Now the next important statistic when looking at frames is the standard deviation from the average. Most studies I read had a standard deviation of roughly 1 inch for the bideltoid width. You don’t need to understand what this means, but this is important if you want to understand the table that I am about to make rather than just using it.
Summary: Standard deviation for bideltoid width seems to be roughly 1 inch.
TABLE
Based on the mean and standard deviation we can make a table that shows how rare each bideltoid width is by looking at percentiles for different measurements.
The following table is for people who have achieved, or are close to achieving their natural muscular limit, we will call this group the gymmaxed people. As I stated above the gymmax people average bideltoid width is probably around 20 inches, if you wanted to make a lean, non-gymaxed table just subtract 1.5 from every value, or a table for steroid users you would add 1 inch to every value. Here is the table:
18 inches - 48 in 50 gymmaxed people are above this (bottom 2%) 2ND PERCENTILE (Narrow)
19 inches - 5 in 6 gymmaxed people are above this (bottom 16%) 16TH PERCENTILE (Narrowish)
20 inches - 1 in 2 gymmaxed people are above this (middle 50%) 50TH PERCENTILE (Average)
21 inches - 1 in 6 gymmaxed people are above this (top 16%) 84TH PERCENTILE (Broadish)
22 inches - 1 in 50 gymmaxed people are above this (top 2%) 98TH PERCENTILE (Broad)
23 inches - 1 in 760 gymmaxed people are above this (top 0.13%) 99.87TH PERCENTILE (Really Broad)
24 inches - 1 in 31,000 gymmaxed people are above this (top 0.0032%) 99.9968TH PERCENTILE (Insanely Broad)
25 inches - 1 in 3 million gymmaxed people are above this (top 0.000003%) 100TH PERCENTILE
26 inches - 1 in 800 million gymmaxed people are above this (top 0.000000125%) 100TH PERCENTILE
27 inches - 1 in billions of gymmaxed people are above this (top 0.000000000275%) 100TH PERCENTILE
CONCLUSIONS
This means that a lean (10-15% bodyfat) person who has reached their natural genetic muscularity potential and is 1 in 760 (basically the broadest senior guy who lifts at an average American high school)would have a bideltoid of roughly 23 inches.
Based on the above table the broadest, lean, natural people in the world are in the 26-27 inches range (These are 1 in a billion kind of people, you will most likely never see one). And if they used steroids and got fatter (Like strongman and powerlifters) they would probably be getting closer to the 28-29 inches range.
The average person sees about 1.5 million unique people throughout their lifetime, based on this table the broadest, lean, naturally gymmaxed person you will ever see out on the street will have a bideltoid of roughly 24.5 inches. That’s after 80 years of living and seeing people.
For skeptics
I am sure skeptics will come and say that they have 22 inches bideltoid non-gymmaxed shoulders so this can’t be accurate. Remember that 22 inches non-gymmaxed is as rare as being 6’7” (2 meters) and there are probably people on this forum who are 6’7”, but just because they are here you don’t think that the average person’s height isn’t 5’9” - 5’10” (175-178 cm). By the same logic just because there are some outliers does not mean this is not accurate.
Also Keep in mind that broader people are more likely to brag about their width, so most data points you find online will be in the upper end of the spectrum (Ex: plenty of guys here talk about being 6’4” (193 cm) but I have never seen anyone talk about being 5’2” (157 cm) even though both heights are just as rare.) In other words, there is a self-selection bias that skews the data.
Here is an example, all of us would agree that this guy has a god-tier frame and probably assume this guy must be in the 24-25 inches bideltoid range
Well not necessarily, based on research I developed a method for estimating people’s bideltoid width from pictures. I won’t go into detail about it in this post. But based on my methods, if this guy has an average face width (bizygomatic) of 14 cm, his bideltoid is only 22 inches. If he has a bigger head of 15 cm (1 in 20 people) Then his bideltoid is 23.5. You have to always account for the angle of the picture as well as the fact he is most likely flexing and has a pump (this can add 1 inch to your bideltoid). He doesn’t look like he has a huge head, so he probably has a no-pump and no-flex bideltoid width of 22-23 inches. Which is in the broad/very broad range, but not insanely broad.
Summary: This guy’s bideltoid is most likely in the 22-23 inches range.
People really exaggerate their bideltoid width, the truth is that if your measurement while lean is above 19.5 non-gymmaxed or 21 gymmaxed you are in the good range and the reason you don’t get pussy is not your frame.
What should your goal bideltoid be: From my research you ideally want a bideltoid width that is 3.8 times your bizygomatic width (Anything in the 3.5-4.0 looks manly, below that you look like a kid). So the average person with a 5.5 inches (14 cm) bizygomatic width probably wants around 21 inches bideltoid. This would be 22 inches if you are pumped and flexing for a photoshoot like most guys’ pictures online.
WAIST
Waist is pretty straight forward, The widest part of your waist should look at least 1.618 times smaller than your shoulder in a picture. In order to check where you are at, place a camera 6ft (2 meter)+ away from you. The camera should be leveled with the ground and aiming straight at your sternum. Take a picture while not flexing or having a pump. On the picture measure the width of the widest part of your shoulder, after measure the width at the widest part of your waist and divide the first measurement by the second (I count pixels for this). If it is above 1.618 you are in the good zone. Ideal is probably around 1.8-1.9, anything above that you start looking comical like this guy:
I rushed this post, so there could be some errors. But this should give you an idea of where your shoulder/waist frame is at and how much you can improve by gymmaxing (On average about 1.5 inches naturally and 2.5 with steroids assuming you start at an already fairly lean bodyfat of 10-15%)
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