Why MSE gives minimal IPD expansion

[retard]

When MSE splits the suture all the force is going to be applied to the bottom of the maxilla, this means that the force is not centralized and that the maxilla will not just be translated outwards, but also rotated, the bottom of the maxilla will be pushed out much more than the top of the maxilla, which is part of the orbital that would cause an increase in IPD

The blue vertical lines is the split maxilla while the arrow is mse splitting the suture and pushing the maxilla out at the bottom, the top red line is the IPD, while the bottom red line is the bizygo distance, notice how when you push the maxilla apart from the bottom the upper maxilla/orbitals move apart minimally in comparison

This is why despite the maxilla/bizygo expanding by 5-6 mm, IPD only expands 1-2mm while you would initially think that since the orbitals are just a part of the maxilla if the maxilla expands 5 mm, the IPD should also increase by 5mm, however this is not the case due to the location that the force is applied


theoretically if you could drill mse in the middle of the maxilla and expanded, the force on it would be centralized resulting in pure translation with no rotations, meaning that the bizygo distance and IPD would increase at a 1:1 ratio

 

[Golang]

dnr but I came to say that I missed that avi so much

 

[Deleted member 3962]

duh

 

[ChaddeusPeuterschmit]

so it will make maxilla go forward some?

 

[FaceandHFD]

yeah it is useless for upper maxilla, especially in adults

 

[retard]

so it will make maxilla go forward some?

lol that has nothing to do with this, but yes mse makes the maxilla go forward slightly

duh

kys

 

[spark]

lol that has nothing to do with this, but yes mse makes the maxilla go forward slightly

kys

Does a facemask hooked up to an MSE move maxilla forward in adults?

 

[needsolution]

Bruh even 1-2mm is good enough for my 58mm ipd

 

[retard]

Does a facemask hooked up to an MSE move maxilla forward in adults?

yes

 

[Deleted member 685]

Completely over then

 

[retard]

Bruh even 1-2mm is good enough for my 58mm ipd

ye mms go a long way, just showing why ur IPD doesn’t expand 5mm while your bizygo does

Completely over then

The top maxilla still gets displaced some, just much less than the bottom part

 

[needsolution]

ye mms go a long way, just showing why ur IPD doesn’t expand 5mm while your bizygo does

The top maxilla still gets displaced some, just much less than the bottom part

Anyways 1:1 expansion would be shitty for most of us. It should be like 0.46mm of IPD for every 1mm of bizygomatic width.

 

[retard]

Anyways 1:1 expansion would be shitty for most of us. It should be like 0.46mm of IPD for every 1mm of bizygomatic width.

depends on your current es ratio, if you’re cyclicopscel you would want a 1:1 but if dolphincel the less ipd the better

 

[needsolution]

depends on your current es ratio, if you’re cyclicopscel you would want a 1:1 but if dolphincel the less ipd the better

That big expansion of IPD is meaningless without PFL expansion which would be needed to look good and harmonic tbh . I doubt MSE expands PFL in any significant way.

 

[Darkstrand]

I'm pretty sure time of expansion also has to do with it, slower expansion=more IPD gains

 

[retard]

That big expansion of IPD is meaningless without PFL expansion which would be needed to look good and harmonic tbh . I doubt MSE expands PFL in any significant way.

it probably expands it by a mm based on what peoples mewing results are, idk the mechanism behind it though since its not like the orbital is getting wider just the distance between the orbitals

 

[Elias]

Good thread

 

[retard]

Just a shower thought - after mse splits the suture you could pull your zygos outwards for a long period of time to distribute a expanding force to the top of the maxilla to widen the upper half/orbitals as well which would increase IPD

it should work in theory since the reason you need MSE is simply to split the suture, after that threshold is met you need much lower amounts of force to push the maxilla apart, and your hands would probably be sufficient in providing enough force - the caveat is no one really knows how much time you would need to do this for to cause a widening of the upper maxilla

 

[Elias]

Just a shower thought - after mse splits the suture you could pull your zygos outwards for a long period of time to distribute a expanding force to the top of the maxilla to widen the upper half/orbitals as well which would increase IPD

it should work in theory since the reason you need MSE is simply to split the suture, after that threshold is met you need much lower amounts of force to push the maxilla apart, and your hands would probably be sufficient in providing enough force - the caveat is no one really knows how much time you would need to do this for to cause a widening of the upper maxilla

Jfl how would you be able to do that

when mse splits the suture there isnt a hole or gap between the two maxillary planes
The flesh is still there covering the suture

 

[retard]

Jfl how would you be able to do that

when mse splits the suture there isnt a hole or gap between the two maxillary planes
The flesh is still there covering the suture

If you clasped your cheekbones which is connected to the upper maxilla it would distribute an expanding tension force to the top of the maxilla to encourage that to move with the already expanding lower maxilla

when the suture isn’t fused in young children the tongue is capable of providing enough force for expansion, just when the suture closes you need an extreme amount of force to reopen it- but once it’s reopened you can use much smaller forces similar in magnitude to what your tongue can accomplish for expansion

 

[spark]

When MSE splits the suture all the force is going to be applied to the bottom of the maxilla, this means that the force is not centralized and that the maxilla will not just be translated outwards, but also rotated, the bottom of the maxilla will be pushed out much more than the top of the maxilla, which is part of the orbital that would cause an increase in IPD
View attachment 341732
The blue vertical lines is the split maxilla while the arrow is mse splitting the suture and pushing the maxilla out at the bottom, the top red line is the IPD, while the bottom red line is the bizygo distance, notice how when you push the maxilla apart from the bottom the upper maxilla/orbitals move apart minimally in comparison

This is why despite the maxilla/bizygo expanding by 5-6 mm, IPD only expands 1-2mm while you would initially think that since the orbitals are just a part of the maxilla if the maxilla expands 5 mm, the IPD should also increase by 5mm, however this is not the case due to the location that the force is applied


theoretically if you could drill mse in the middle of the maxilla and expanded, the force on it would be centralized resulting in pure translation with no rotations, meaning that the bizygo distance and IPD would increase at a 1:1 ratio

Don't the enlarged nostrils make you look ridiculous? Or is there no aesthetic disadvantage? Ronald Ead's nostrils look kind of big tbh.

 

[malignant]

depends on your current es ratio, if you’re cyclicopscel you would want a 1:1 but if dolphincel the less ipd the better

so if i already have a wide ipd, mse is going to make my es ratio even worse? i was hoping the cheekbone width would make it better ngl

 

[Sergio-OMS]

so if i already have a wide ipd, mse is going to make my es ratio even worse? i was hoping the cheekbone width would make it better ngl

If an horizontal cut is done and the appliance is placed a bit anterior you shouldn't worry about that

 

[optimisticzoomer]

No it's cos the eye sockets are connected to the forehead lmao. You can't move the whole eye socket without splitting the forehead in half

 

[retard]

No it's cos the eye sockets are connected to the forehead lmao. You can't move the whole eye socket without splitting the forehead in half

Zygomaticofrontal suture - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[optimisticzoomer]

Zygomaticofrontal suture - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

That doesnt mean shit, you need to expand from the centre outwards. If anything, that would increase pfl

Good luck getting anything but rotation

 

[retard]

That doesnt mean shit, you need to expand from the centre outwards. If anything, that would increase pfl
View attachment 903895
Good luck getting anything but rotation

 

[optimisticzoomer]

View attachment 903904

As I already said, how do you expect to move the eye sockets when they are connected to the forehead? Lol. All that could happen is rotation out from the centre

 

[optimisticzoomer]

As I already said, how do you expect to move the eye sockets when they are connected to the forehead? Lol. All that could happen is rotation out from the centre

So maybe canthal tilt will improve

 

[retard]

As I already said, how do you expect to move the eye sockets when they are connected to the forehead? Lol. All that could happen is rotation out from the centre

bro thats why ive been posting sutures, none of the bones are actually bonded to one another, they are just connected as separate parts by the sutures

 

[optimisticzoomer]

bro thats why ive been posting sutures, none of the bones are actually bonded to one another, they are just connected as separate parts by the sutures

The top of the eye socket is the same bone as the forehead

 

[retard]

The top of the eye socket is the same bone as the forehead

ye but what matters are the bones that are attached to the canthal tendons, as those are what actually dictate where the eye goes, while the orbits dictate that, the parts of the orbits that dictate it are apart of moveable bones

 

[optimisticzoomer]

ye but what matters are the bones that are attached to the canthal tendons, as those are what actually dictate where the eye goes, while the orbits dictate that, the parts of the orbits that dictate it are apart of moveable bones

Also ronald ead got zero ipd change, not even 1mm by the Looks of it

 

[retard]

Also ronald ead got zero ipd change, not even 1mm by the Looks of it

did u read the title of this post lol

 

[optimisticzoomer]

did u read the title of this post lol

Yeah but u said u could get 1-2mm

 

[MSEFM]

The MSE studies suggest that the skeletal separation isn't really lateral displacement but rather rotation around a fulcrum near the frontozygomatic suture, so structures closer to the fulcrum like the orbits would have less linear change than structures farther from the fulcrum like the teeth, even if they have comparable angular change.

 

[MSEFM]

Also ronald ead got zero ipd change, not even 1mm by the Looks of it

This is hard to judge because he lined up the pupils to standardize the before and after images on his blog.

 

[optimisticzoomer]

This is hard to judge because he lined up the pupils to standardize the before and after images on his blog.

https://looksmax.org/threads/proving-mse-provides-little-to-no-ipd-increase-in-adults.75923/

Also I lined up the images with the ears as a point for equal width, and the ipd is the same

 

[MSEFM]

https://looksmax.org/threads/proving-mse-provides-little-to-no-ipd-increase-in-adults.75923/

Also I lined up the images with the ears as a point for equal width, and the ipd is the same

I haven't noticed a change in my ipd, but I haven't taken current pictures to compare to my baseline.

 

[optimisticzoomer]

ye but what matters are the bones that are attached to the canthal tendons, as those are what actually dictate where the eye goes, while the orbits dictate that, the parts of the orbits that dictate it are apart of moveable bones

Also I'm not sure you realise how complex the eyes actually are.
This is what positions the eyes, which moving the lower orbital would not affect

 

[optimisticzoomer]

I haven't noticed a change in my ipd, but I haven't taken current pictures to compare to my baseline.

Yeah you won't get a change