AI + PCT DISCUSSION

[gymcelled]

I see so many people say AI is cope or PCT is cope, so I’d like to discuss this.

When on a testosterone cycle, AI and PCT is very useful, if you want to minimize side effects and try to save your natural T production post-cycle.

Please tell me how this is bad.

 

[ru58841]

nigga who said aromatase inhibitors are cope , they are very effective when ur estrogen is high

and not sure on pcts, i see a lot of bodybuilders agree with it and a lot of people like @imontheloose against it, imma have to do my own research on it.

also dont roid if u are planning on coming off lol

 

[gymcelled]

nigga who said aromatase inhibitors are cope , they are very effective when ur estrogen is high

and not sure on pcts, i see a lot of bodybuilders agree with it and a lot of people like @imontheloose against it, imma have to do my own research on it.

also dont roid if u are planning on coming off lol

this is what prompted me to make this post, as there was a lil guy asking about AI, and this guy convinced him to not do it

 

[ru58841]

View attachment 4037041
this is what prompted me to make this post, as there was a lil guy asking about AI, and this guy convinced him to not do it

give me context

@Bryce

 

[gymcelled]

give me context

@Bryce

here-
Thread 'Cycle'
https://looksmax.org/threads/cycle.1577232/

 

[ru58841]

here-
Thread 'Cycle'
https://looksmax.org/threads/cycle.1577232/

i said ais are useful if u have high estrogen, its not gonna increase your height too much (most likely wont lol).

plus estrogen is necessary for height growth, is neuro protective and cardio protective

 

[Bitchwhipper2]

I just permarun hcg

 

[gymcelled]

i said ais are useful if u have high estrogen, its not gonna increase your height too much (most likely wont lol).

plus estrogen is necessary for height growth, is neuro protective and cardio protective

i mean OP said hes considering an AI off bloodwork - so i’m guessing he has high estrogen. to which then bryce said its cope

 

[gymcelled]

I just permarun hcg

i got hcg as well, but just for the end of my cycle, before i start pct

 

[Oreone]

Some steroids themselves reduce estrogen levels (but that's bullshit, DHT derivatives). Obviously, most people don't need PCT. Fuck your hormones? I'll be on testosterone and growth hormone for the rest of my life lol. That's why bridges are used instead of PCT

 

[ru58841]

I just permarun hcg

what happened to nandrolone only

 

[gymcelled]

Some steroids themselves reduce estrogen levels (but that's bullshit, DHT derivatives). Obviously, most people don't need PCT. Fuck your hormones? I'll be on testosterone and growth hormone for the rest of my life lol. That's why bridges are used instead of PCT

i mean if im planning to only do one cycle, and then try to go to normal levels, pct just makes sense no?

 

[imontheloose]

nigga who said aromatase inhibitors are cope , they are very effective when ur estrogen is high

and not sure on pcts, i see a lot of bodybuilders agree with it and a lot of people like @imontheloose against it, imma have to do my own research on it.

also dont roid if u are planning on coming off lol

What is the need for anything above hCG for muh therapy? PCT is a meme.

 

[ru58841]

i mean OP said hes considering an AI off bloodwork - so i’m guessing he has high estrogen. to which then bryce said its cope

he probably thought he meant using an ai for heightmaxxing, i doubt bryce thinks ais are shit for controlling estrogen lol

 

[Oreone]

i mean if im planning to only do one cycle, and then try to go to normal levels, pct just makes sense no?

ngl if you are taking steroids then taking risks for the sake of 1 cycle is a stupid idea. write your course in more detail, you probably don't need PCT only hcg

 

[gymcelled]

What is the need for anything above hCG for muh therapy? PCT is a meme.

hcg only boosts your testosterone production while ur pinning it, when u stop it stops (afaik)
pct is trying to restart your NATURAL production

 

[imontheloose]

hcg only boosts your testosterone production while ur pinning it, when u stop it stops (afaik)
pct is trying to restart your NATURAL production

What on earth are you talking about? Your pituitary recovers itself and doesn’t need any PCT. Your balls need to kickstart back and hCG does that for you.

 

[gymcelled]

What on earth are you talking about? Your pituitary recovers itself and doesn’t need any PCT. Your balls need to kickstart back and hCG does that for you.

your pituitary recovering itself is very slow and unpredictable. thats why you help with serms

 

[gymcelled]

ngl if you are taking steroids then taking risks for the sake of 1 cycle is a stupid idea. write your course in more detail, you probably don't need PCT only hcg

i want to do one cycle just to boost my gym progress, and then i can continue naturally.
that’s why i want pct - to try and recover fully from it (ofc i know thats not guaranteed)

 

[imontheloose]

your pituitary recovering itself is very slow and unpredictable. thats why you help with serms

It’s actually very quick. You are a clueless normie.

 

[gymcelled]

It’s actually very quick. You are a clueless normie.

rando org user knows more than the millions of bodybuilders swearing by pct

 

[Oreone]

i want to do one cycle just to boost my gym progress, and then i can continue naturally.
that’s why i want pct - to try and recover fully from it (ofc i know thats not guaranteed)

I think this is a damn stupid idea

 

[gymcelled]

I think this is a damn stupid idea

why exactly? please elaborate if u say sum like that

 

[imontheloose]

rando org user knows more than the millions of bodybuilders swearing by pct

You’re actually retarded. No, millions don’t swear by it. If you trust a few bodybuilders so much, go copy each and every one of their habits. You should be injecting oil into yourself and blasting grams of tren.

Kill yourself. You’re seriously a waste of space on this planet. I did you the honour of lecturing you on PCT and you make up a fact to justify your bullshit. Suicide is mandatory.

@chadisbeingmade @SlayerJonas

 

[gymcelled]

You’re actually retarded. No, millions don’t swear by it. If you trust a few bodybuilders so much, go copy each and every one of their habits. You should be injecting oil into yourself and blasting grams of tren.

Kill yourself. You’re seriously a waste of space on this planet. I did you the honour of lecturing you on PCT and you make up a fact to justify your bullshit. Suicide is mandatory.

@chadisbeingmade @SlayerJonas

still no explanation for why pct is bad, just “trust me bro i know more than you”
truly a specimen of the human kind

 

[Bitchwhipper2]

what happened to nandrolone only

When i say deca only i mean deca + 10 other ancillaries to migigate its disasterous side effect profile

 

[imontheloose]

still no explanation for why pct is bad, just “trust me bro i know more than you”
truly a specimen of the human kind

I explained to you very clearly that the pituitary bounces back quickly. Not to mention that there is not one study on PCT doing anything helpful; in fact, it only did absolutely nothing useful and arguably had a negative outcome on one particular study.

What other evidence do you need? Another random bodybuilder injecting oil in his tits to tell you it’s good?

 

[gymcelled]

I explained to you very clearly that the pituitary bounces back quickly. Not to mention that there is not one study on PCT doing anything helpful; in fact, it only did absolutely nothing useful and arguably had a negative outcome.

What other evidence do you need? Another random bodybuilder injecting oil in his tits to tell you it’s good?

your explanation is just a random statement “the pituitary bounces back quickly”
any evidence of that? feel free to share the studies that told u this fact.

 

[imontheloose]

your explanation is just a random statement “the pituitary bounces back quickly”
any evidence of that? feel free to share the studies that told u this fact.

Validate User

academic.oup.com

“We were unable to demonstrate any beneficial effect of medications referred to as PCT, therefore the use of these agents should be discouraged.”

Fucking retarded cunt.

 

[adarsh arya]

nigga who said aromatase inhibitors are cope , they are very effective when ur estrogen is high

and not sure on pcts, i see a lot of bodybuilders agree with it and a lot of people like @imontheloose against it, imma have to do my own research on it.

also dont roid if u are planning on coming off lol

agreed with the last statement if you are planning to roid never think about leaving it

 

[SlayerJonas]

Validate User

academic.oup.com

“We were unable to demonstrate any beneficial effect of medications referred to as PCT, therefore the use of these agents should be discouraged.”

Fucking retarded cunt.

hCG as PCT is more than enough including in the long-term.

There are only limited niche use cases for SERMs, using them as PCT is stupid.

 

[imontheloose]

hCG as PCT is more than enough including in the long-term.

There are only limited niche use cases for SERMs, using them as PCT is stupid.

Woah, son. OP is about to say you made that up and to trust Rich Piana. I haven’t saw someone on this forum who is more worthless, seriously.

 

[SlayerJonas]

Woah, son. OP is about to say you made that up and to trust Rich Piana. I haven’t saw someone on this forum who is more worthless, seriously.

"B-but the majority says-" is where he failed.

 

[imontheloose]

"B-but the majority says-" is where he failed.

What do you mean? Democracy has always worked, clearly. The majority is always correct.

 

[gymcelled]

Validate User

academic.oup.com

“We were unable to demonstrate any beneficial effect of medications referred to as PCT, therefore the use of these agents should be discouraged.”

Fucking retarded cunt.

“Recovery of testosterone levels doesn’t account for how quickly or fully the hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis (HPTA) restarts - what matters for real-world effects like libido, mood, and fertility.”

It’s a good study, but I guess there are studies for and against PCT, so we won’t get anywhere by arguing.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/10954278_Use_of_clomiphene_citrate_to_reverse_premature_andropause_secondary_to_steroid_abuse

Clomiphene citrate for men with hypogonadism: a systematic review and meta-analysis - PubMed

Clomiphene citrate is an effective therapy for improving both biochemical as well as clinical symptoms of males suffering from hypogonadism. Clomiphene citrate has few reported side effects and good safety aspects.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Temporal Changes of Clomiphene on Testosterone Levels and Semen Parameters in Subfertile Men - PMC

Clomiphene citrate (CC) is prescribed off-label in men to improve testosterone and sperm parameters, but the duration of treatment needed to reach maximal benefit remains unclear. Our objective was to examine temporal effects of CC on total ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[SlayerJonas]

What do you mean? Democracy has always worked, clearly. The majority is always correct.

Cope. We need an aristocracy with the shanghai triplets at the top.

 

[gymcelled]

"B-but the majority says-" is where he failed.

so if pct helped 90 people and didn’t do anything for 10, majority doesn’t matter and we can conclude it’s useless because of the 10 people?

interesting view

 

[imontheloose]

“Recovery of testosterone levels doesn’t account for how quickly or fully the hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis (HPTA) restarts - what matters for real-world effects like libido, mood, and fertility.”

It’s a good study, but I guess there are studies for and against PCT, so we won’t get anywhere by arguing.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/10954278_Use_of_clomiphene_citrate_to_reverse_premature_andropause_secondary_to_steroid_abuse

Clomiphene citrate for men with hypogonadism: a systematic review and meta-analysis - PubMed

Clomiphene citrate is an effective therapy for improving both biochemical as well as clinical symptoms of males suffering from hypogonadism. Clomiphene citrate has few reported side effects and good safety aspects.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Temporal Changes of Clomiphene on Testosterone Levels and Semen Parameters in Subfertile Men - PMC

Clomiphene citrate (CC) is prescribed off-label in men to improve testosterone and sperm parameters, but the duration of treatment needed to reach maximal benefit remains unclear. Our objective was to examine temporal effects of CC on total ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Nice, a single case and general hypogonadiam populations.

Still waiting for the PCT study. @SlayerJonas @chadisbeingmade

 

[aids]

hCG as PCT is more than enough including in the long-term.

There are only limited niche use cases for SERMs, using them as PCT is stupid.

To clarify, are you saying HCG specifically for PCT, or as on-cycle support, for coming off easier?

I explained to you very clearly that the pituitary bounces back quickly. Not to mention that there is not one study on PCT doing anything helpful; in fact, it only did absolutely nothing useful and arguably had a negative outcome on one particular study.

What other evidence do you need? Another random bodybuilder injecting oil in his tits to tell you it’s good?

The study (I think) you are referring to is flawed, given the soonest bloodwork that the participants had done post-cycle (excluding immediately), was 3-months post-cycle.

No person running a 3 month cycle of AAS will run PCT for 3 months, especially given all participants had normal blood results pre-cycle.

It would have been better to have participants do bloodwork 1 month post-cycle as well, to more effectively gauge the contributions of PCT. I also don't recall which compounds they used for PCT, maybe you can shed some light, but unless all commonly-used SERMs were included in the study en masse, we can't rule them out as not helping.

You cannot definitively conclude that PCT did not help with recovering endogenous production, solely because sperm count was lower in the experimental group one year after the beginning of the cycle.

I am not necessarily saying that this means PCT is going to expedite recovery, but you cannot rule it out given how the study was conducted.

I personally will run HCG for the remainder of my cycle and PCT with Enclomiphene, I'd rather waste money and have slightly lower sperm volume 9 months later, than potentially inhibit my recovery time by not using it.

 

[imontheloose]

To clarify, are you saying HCG specifically for PCT, or as on-cycle support, for coming off easier?


The study (I think) you are referring to is flawed, given the soonest bloodwork that the participants had done post-cycle (excluding immediately), was 3-months post-cycle.

No person running a 3 month cycle of AAS will run PCT for 3 months, especially given all participants had normal blood results pre-cycle.

It would have been better to have participants do bloodwork 1 month post-cycle as well, to more effectively gauge the contributions of PCT. I also don't recall which compounds they used for PCT, maybe you can shed some light, but unless all commonly-used SERMs were included in the study en masse, we can't rule them out as not helping.

You cannot definitively conclude that PCT did not help with recovering endogenous production, solely because sperm count was lower in the experimental group one year after the beginning of the cycle.

I am not necessarily saying that this means PCT is going to expedite recovery, but you cannot rule it out given how the study was conducted.

I personally will run HCG for the remainder of my cycle and PCT with Enclomiphene, I'd rather waste money and have slightly lower sperm volume 9 months later, than potentially inhibit my recovery time by not using it.

The study is shit, yes. But it is the only study on PCT. What can you do? There’s no point inventing information to justify using PCT when the only data on it so far shows that it, at best, has zero positive effect, if not entirely negative.

 

[gymcelled]

To clarify, are you saying HCG specifically for PCT, or as on-cycle support, for coming off easier?


The study (I think) you are referring to is flawed, given the soonest bloodwork that the participants had done post-cycle (excluding immediately), was 3-months post-cycle.

No person running a 3 month cycle of AAS will run PCT for 3 months, especially given all participants had normal blood results pre-cycle.

It would have been better to have participants do bloodwork 1 month post-cycle as well, to more effectively gauge the contributions of PCT. I also don't recall which compounds they used for PCT, maybe you can shed some light, but unless all commonly-used SERMs were included in the study en masse, we can't rule them out as not helping.

You cannot definitively conclude that PCT did not help with recovering endogenous production, solely because sperm count was lower in the experimental group one year after the beginning of the cycle.

I am not necessarily saying that this means PCT is going to expedite recovery, but you cannot rule it out given how the study was conducted.

I personally will run HCG for the remainder of my cycle and PCT with Enclomiphene, I'd rather waste money and have slightly lower sperm volume 9 months later, than potentially inhibit my recovery time by not using it.

holy high iq user

 

[Midasw]

Validate User

academic.oup.com

“We were unable to demonstrate any beneficial effect of medications referred to as PCT, therefore the use of these agents should be discouraged.”

Fucking retarded cunt.

jfl entire study was on self administered PCT with no knowledge of what, how long, and how much, dudes couldve been running clomid as pct

 

[gymcelled]

The study is shit, yes. But it is the only study on PCT. What can you do? There’s no point inventing information to justify using PCT when the only data on it so far shows that it, at best, has zero positive effect, if not entirely negative.

wait so ur agreeing you use a flawed study to confirm your beliefs, even tho you know it’s probably not accurate?

what if the study said PCT did help? would u still be using that study or would u be on here telling us that the study is worthless and pct is useless anyways

low iq, dni

 

[aids]

The study is shit, yes. But it is the only study on PCT. What can you do? There’s no point inventing information to justify using PCT when the only data on it so far shows that it, at best, has zero positive effect, if not entirely negative.

I agree as to there not being literature for PCT helping but personally will not let that sway me to not PCT whatsoever.
Again, I'd rather use it acknowledging the risks than not, and potentially delay recovery.
Though I think we can both agree that using HCG on-cycle to keep LH/FSH high is definitively going to help with recovering endogenous production.

 

[imontheloose]

jfl entire study was on self administered PCT with no knowledge of what, how long, and how much, dudes couldve been running clomid as pct

And it’s still the only study on PCT. This is my literal point.

wait so ur agreeing you use a flawed study to confirm your beliefs, even tho you know it’s probably not accurate?

what if the study said PCT did help? would u still be using that study or would u be on here telling us that the study is worthless and pct is useless anyways

low iq, dni

I didn’t confirm my beliefs by it. I stated that the only study on it had a negative impact yet initially affirmed there is no data on it, so I actually disregarded the study myself.

You are absolutely clueless. If the study said it helped, I’d have shown it helped in this one particular study so there isn’t enough data to say it has negative impacts. Same way here I will say the only study was negative so there’s no reason to believe it’ll have a positive effect.

You’re unironically the lowest IQ user on this site.

 

[FutureSlayer]

I see so many people say AI is cope or PCT is cope, so I’d like to discuss this.

When on a testosterone cycle, AI and PCT is very useful, if you want to minimize side effects and try to save your natural T production post-cycle.

Please tell me how this is bad.

nah, just masks your recovering process, it actually isn’t different than recovering naturally

 

[aids]

wait so ur agreeing you use a flawed study to confirm your beliefs, even tho you know it’s probably not accurate?

what if the study said PCT did help? would u still be using that study or would u be on here telling us that the study is worthless and pct is useless anyways

low iq, dni

A flawed study does not necessarily mean we should not consider it whatsoever. As @imontheloose mentioned, it's all we have.
The discourse surrounding PCT is slippery because all the evidence for/against it is either anecdotal, or not flawless.
He is not wrong to mention this study, but it should not be considered as proof to definitively rule out PCT, which I don't think is his implication; it is evidence against, not proof.

 

[imontheloose]

I agree as to there not being literature for PCT helping but personally will not let that sway me to not PCT whatsoever.
Again, I'd rather use it acknowledging the risks than not, and potentially delay recovery.
Though I think we can both agree that using HCG on-cycle to keep LH/FSH high is definitively going to help with recovering endogenous production.

I have advocated for hCG for ages. OP believes PCT helps and thinks that the lack of literature means you must now trust bodybuilders injecting oil into their tits.

I follow the data and there is no reason to believe it works. If you want to take it for the sake of muh safety then that is a personal decision.

 

[imontheloose]

A flawed study does not necessarily mean we should not consider it whatsoever. As @imontheloose mentioned, it's all we have.
The discourse surrounding PCT is slippery because all the evidence for/against it is either anecdotal, or not flawless.
He is not wrong to mention this study, but it should not be considered as proof to definitively rule out PCT, which I don't think is the implication; it is evidence against, not proof.

Precisely. Evidence against, not proof. Very well put.

I did not base my premise on that study. I disregarded it and stated there was zero data and that the ONLY information we have was negative.

 

[aids]

I have advocated for hCG for ages. OP believes PCT helps and thinks that the lack of literature means you must now trust bodybuilders injecting oil into their tits.

I follow the data and there is no reason to believe it works. If you want to take it for the sake of muh safety then that is a personal decision.

Have you advocated for HCG use on-cycle, post-cycle, or both?