Are you a determinist?

[Tom Jones]

Title. Explain why or why not

 

[Zylk]

It goes against the blackpill

 

[Tom Jones]

It goes against the blackpill

On the contrary. It is the black pill

 

[ropemax]

this won't get you any pussy

 

[Tom Jones]

this won't get you any pussy

It might. Of no free will of mine nor that of the lucky pussy

 

[Prince88]

determinism is true
free will is also true

 

[Tom Jones]

determinism is true
free will is also true

How? They seem incompatible to me

 

[Prince88]

How? They seem incompatible to me

read this: https://marvinedwards.me/2021/10/10/compatibilism-whats-that-about/

explains it better than I can

 

[Tom Jones]

read this: https://marvinedwards.me/2021/10/10/compatibilism-whats-that-about/

explains it better than I can

Compatibilism never resonated with me. I think I understand it, but it seems nonsensical to me​

 

[micropenis29]

i'm a hard determinist

always have been and always will be!

 

[Tom Jones]

i'm a hard determinist

always have been and always will be!

My man. Unless of course there is evidence to the contrary (which there won’t be)

 

[micropenis29]

My man. Unless of course there is evidence to the contrary (which there won’t be)

ROFL

 

[incel194012940]

The study of psychology, history, astrology, reincarnation, sociology ect, and just the philosophical arguments about this make me incline toward determinist

However inside of physics and precognition there exists some material that leads me to believe randomness and the exercise of free will has an effect on the world.

So I'm a determinist until proven wrong on anything

 

[Tom Jones]

The study of psychology, history, astrology, reincarnation, sociology ect, and just the philosophical arguments about this make me incline toward determinist

However inside of physics and precognition there exists some material that leads me to believe randomness and the exercise of free will has an effect on the world.

So I'm a determinist until proven wrong on anything

Well I wouldn’t rely too much on astrology, reincarnation norphisolophy or sociology.

And the scientific part I agree it’s very weird But the “randomness” of modern physics really a good argument? (I have tried understanding the physics of nature a lot. And it is misunderstood by most. I’m not claiming to speak with any authority tho)

I do respect your current position on determinism. I’m the same. All we know is the natural world and with that knowledge we can build our understanding of the universe.

 

[incel194012940]

And the scientific part I agree it’s very weird But the “randomness” of modern physics really a good argument? (I have tried understanding the physics of nature a lot. And it is misunderstood by most. I’m not claiming to speak with any authority tho)

I do respect your current position on determinism. I’m the same. All we know is the natural world and with that knowledge we can build our understanding of the universe.

Well… all I can say that there’s room for interpretation in modern physics. No more hard evidence than a “muh science” deterministic view.
call it a “god of the gaps” argument

Making a life philosophy out of microscopic particles isn’t something I’m completely comfortable. Seems arrogant and a bit detached from real living

certainly not the rational, scientific approach people larp it as

Tbh I’m not a fan of philosophy bc I feel naturally drawn in a direction and no book can change that.
I can understand - to a limited degree at least how the author feels
but afterwards I only get a few new phrases for what I already believed. I could get more out of it through systematic study, but not exactly a fun game for a Friday night.

 

[Harold O'brien]

nah, universe just does what it wants

 

[Tom Jones]

nah, universe just does what it wants

But don’t you think the universe is governed by rules and laws?

As sure as the earth revolves around the sun, shitposting on here is inevitable.

 

[Deleted member 18849]

Just remember what physics experiments tell us is how certain particles and so on behave when observed by other particles that communicate with them namely those of your eyes, optic nerves, brain cells, etc. We don't know what's the randomness underlying mechanism is if there is, nor if other particles, dimensions we can't perceive interact with those.

So yeah determinism sounds good at the classical scale (everyday experience), in quantum scale sounds weird, and who knows how many scales there are. Modern science is like few hundred years old, and the human race 200,000. Mind blowing...

 

[RecessedChinCel]

Life is probabilistic not deterministic.

Nothing in guaranteed but yeah if you are tall white Chad you are very likely to succeed in life. But again there are no guarantees. Some people slip through the cracks and are outliers.

 

[Tom Jones]

Just remember what physics experiments tell us is how certain particles and so on behave when observed by other particles that communicate with them namely those of your eyes, optic nerves, brain cells, etc. We don't know what's the randomness underlying mechanism is if there is, nor if other particles, dimensions we can't perceive interact with those.

So yeah determinism sounds good at the classical scale (everyday experience), in quantum scale sounds weird, and who knows how many scales there are. Modern science is like few hundred years old, and the human race 200,000. Lol

Agree. But the “supposed” randomness would be more appropriately called probability.

And I think people that bring up quantum mechanics in a debate are cowards (not you, made good points). Basing something like libertarian free will, as complex and lacking in understanding. All we know is the natural world in which we can make excellent predictions, even predict a persons next move.

There is a machine that can beat you you in Rock, paper, scissors every time when it’s hooked up to your brain.

 

[Harold O'brien]

But don’t you think the universe is governed by rules and laws?

As sure as the earth revolves around the sun, shitposting on here is inevitable.

what we consider rules and laws are just the human consciousness attempting to understand ontological reality through a combination of observation and guesswork

just look at the development of physics. from greek mechanics to newtonian mechanics to general relativity and quantum mechanics. at each step we increase accuracy sure but we still have zero understanding of what is actually going on underneath. pattern spotting is a relic of evolution to help us survive in our environment. what reason do we have to think the universe inherently contains patterns that are meaningful?

 

[Tom Jones]

Life is probabilistic not deterministic.

Nothing in guaranteed but yeah if you are tall white Chad you are very likely to succeed in life. But again there are no guarantees. Some people slip through the cracks and are outliers.

Not agree completely. Everything that has happened to you could only happen the way it happened.

 

[Deleted member 17872]

My man. Unless of course there is evidence to the contrary (which there won’t be)

typical bigot

 

[RecessedChinCel]

Not agree completely. Everything that has happened to you could only happen the way it happened.

This is from blkpillpres from incels.is he is high IQ enough to explain this shit better than me :

It's really just fallacious logic that can't be tested or proven.

If someone chooses to wealthmaxx you will say "It was your fate to wealthmaxx"

If they stop one month after, give up and choose to LDAR, you will say "It was your fate to LDAR and give up"

If two months after that they go back to wealthmaxxing and become a high five figure earner, you will say "It was your fate to wealthmaxx again and be successful at it"

If three months after that their business fails and they spiral into depression and go back to LDAR, you will say "It was your fate to fail again and LDAR"

If four months after that they go back to wealthmaxxing with a new strategy and become a six figure earner, you will say "It was your fate to wealthmaxx and become a six figure earner"

AND ON AND ON IT GOES.

It's really just a disingenuous and fallacious way of describing peoples CHOICES and their RESULTS.

It's you taking HINDSIGHT and then INVOKING "DESTINY". All you are doing is "stating the obvious", a simple statement of "X happened", but then you add onto the statement and make it "X was destined to happen".

 

[RecessedChinCel]

You are conflating "probability" with "inevitability".

There was a time that I flipped a coin and it landed on its side (the thin side) and stayed up. It wasn't "destiny" just because it was "unlikely", nor were the other times that I flipped and it landed on the flat sides "destiny" because it was "likely to happen".

You are pointing out statistical probabilities, that's not "destiny" or "fate".

I'm about to get up and walk to go to the bathroom as I type this up. It isn't "destiny" or "fate" that I'll be able to get up and walk. It's statistically unlikely that I'll just randomly lose the ability to use my legs and become a paraplegic at this instant lol.

Some things are just more likely to happen than others, like those suicide stats you pointed out. Which don't shock me at all as the world is a fucked up place and were on a planet of billions.

 

[Tom Jones]

what we consider rules and laws are just the human consciousness attempting to understand ontological reality through a combination of observation and guesswork

just look at the development of physics. from greek mechanics to newtonian mechanics to general relativity and quantum mechanics. at each step we increase accuracy sure but we still have zero understanding of what is actually going on underneath. pattern spotting is a relic of evolution to help us survive in our environment. what reason do we have to think the universe inherently contains patterns that are meaningful?

Good point. We are part of the universe and try to understand it. And we fail often

But I think we use mathematics to recognize the patterns of the universe. Math is the language of the universe.

 

[Harold O'brien]

Good point. We are part of the universe and try to understand it. And we fail often

But I think we use mathematics to recognize the patterns of the universe. Math is the language of the universe.

math is made up too, I made a good thread on this

why does 1+1=2?

that standard intuition is if you have one apple and you add another you have two apples but what if you have a bucket of water and a bucket of salt and add them together? then you get 1+1=1 or add fire to fuel you get 1+1=0 or something like this: , 1+1=many? this is why it is clear math...

looksmax.org

addition is just the specific case of dealing with standard solids. we have only built math around this because it is the most common interaction in nature. but in general there are no rules

 

[RecessedChinCel]

math is made up too, I made a good thread on this

why does 1+1=2?

that standard intuition is if you have one apple and you add another you have two apples but what if you have a bucket of water and a bucket of salt and add them together? then you get 1+1=1 or add fire to fuel you get 1+1=0 or something like this: , 1+1=many? this is why it is clear math...

looksmax.org

Cope math is descriptive of reality it isn’t made up and exists independent of humans.

That’s why math has predictive power.

 

[Harold O'brien]

Cope math is descriptive of reality it isn’t made up and exists independent of humans.

That’s why math has predictive power.

all models are descriptive of reality, that is their purpose. it doesn't mean they are reality

 

[Tom Jones]

This is from blkpillpres from incels.is he is high IQ enough to explain this shit better than me :

It's really just fallacious logic that can't be tested or proven.

If someone chooses to wealthmaxx you will say "It was your fate to wealthmaxx"

If they stop one month after, give up and choose to LDAR, you will say "It was your fate to LDAR and give up"

If two months after that they go back to wealthmaxxing and become a high five figure earner, you will say "It was your fate to wealthmaxx again and be successful at it"

If three months after that their business fails and they spiral into depression and go back to LDAR, you will say "It was your fate to fail again and LDAR"

If four months after that they go back to wealthmaxxing with a new strategy and become a six figure earner, you will say "It was your fate to wealthmaxx and become a six figure earner"

AND ON AND ON IT GOES.

It's really just a disingenuous and fallacious way of describing peoples CHOICES and their RESULTS.

It's you taking HINDSIGHT and then INVOKING "DESTINY". All you are doing is "stating the obvious", a simple statement of "X happened", but then you add onto the statement and make it "X was destined to happen".

Yes everything preceding an action has made the next action inevitable, and the one before that.
We are prisoners of nature.

And I think the guy you quoted invokes more of fatalism rather than determinism.

 

[Deleted member 18849]

Agree. But the “supposed” randomness would be more appropriately called probability.

And I think people that bring up quantum mechanics in a debate are cowards (not you, made good points). Basing something like libertarian free will, as complex and lacking in understanding. All we know is the natural world in which we can make excellent predictions, even predict a persons next move.

There is a machine that can beat you you in Rock, paper, scissors every time when it’s hooked up to your brain.

It's probability vs 'happened because of this' at different scales. Einstein argued that any randomness in quantum mechanics was actually epistemic; it represented a lack of our knowledge of the system, even though the system was in reality fully deterministic.

But in the end we don't know if it's deterministic. We don't know how consciousness works, QFT is incomplete; We only know that we're conscious bags made up of things be it atoms, particles, wavefunctions - whatever, plus that classical + quantum rules run on mathematics. Math = the final boss pill.

 

[Tom Jones]

It's probability vs 'happened because of this' at different scales. Einstein argued that any randomness in quantum mechanics was actually epistemic; it represented a lack of our knowledge of the system, even though the system was in reality fully deterministic.

But in the end we don't know if it's deterministic. We don't know how consciousness works QFT is incomplete; We only know that we're conscious bags made up of things be it atoms, particles, wavefunctions - whatever, plus that classical + quantum rules run on mathematics.

Mostly agree. We are part of nature and many aspects of the natural world is barely understood.
But the most promising theory of consciousness is that it operates following classical mechanics and quantum mechs could be ignored

 

[Deleted member 18840]

Title. Explain why or why not

I indeed determined that you need my dick

 

[Tom Jones]

I indeed determined that you need my dick

Of no free will of my own I will go lube up. See ya in 5

 

[Deleted member 17872]

Mostly agree. We are part of nature and many aspects of the natural world is barely understood.
But the most promising theory of consciousness is that it operates following classical mechanics and quantum mechs could be ignored

Yeah let's just ignore quantum mechanics becuse it doesn't agree with your world view jfl

 

[Deleted member 18840]

Of no free will of my own I will go lube up. See ya in 5

On a srs note i believe in relative free will.
God existence does makes probabilistically and rationnally the most sense.
We don’t have full free will as in being able to do everything we want, it’s absurd and would require from us to be god, all knowing and all powerful.
But God gives us opportunities that we either take or leave, to use either for good or for bad and we will then acquire those deeds, and be able to be judged on it, based on the principle of responsibility.

 

[Harold O'brien]

determinism is true
free will is also true

bell's theorem largely contradicts this

unless you think there is non-local determinism which completely changes our understanding of physics

 

[Tom Jones]

Yeah let's just ignore quantum mechanics becuse it doesn't agree with your world view jfl

I will certainly not ignore it. But there is no evidence that it operates on a quantum level. Especially with modern neuroscience, we are able to predict many things people think. I think we are a half decade from being able to “read minds”

If I’m wrong I’ll suck your dong and admit I was wrong.
Would suck your dong anyway tho

 

[Deleted member 18840]

If I’m wrong I’ll suck your dong and admit I was wrong.
Would suck your dong anyway tho

I hate to have, me too, some part of gayranian dna - just basically iranian dna.

 

[ChristianChad]

Doesn't matter

 

[Deleted member 17872]

bell's theorem largely contradicts this

unless you think there is non-local determinism which completely changes our understanding of physics

didn't u said that the law of contradiction is man made and has no basis in reality

 

[Harold O'brien]

I will certainly not ignore it. But there is no evidence that it operates on a quantum level. Especially with modern neuroscience, we are able to predict many things people think. I think we are a half decade from being able to “read minds”

If I’m wrong I’ll suck your dong and admit I was wrong.
Would suck your dong anyway tho

modern neuroscience is still pretty garbage. I don't think we are past the "this area of his brain lights up so he is happy" stage yet

everything operates on a quantum level. this is like analyzing traffic but ignoring individual cars

 

[Harold O'brien]

didn't u said that the law of contradiction is man made and has no basis in reality

legit

based nihilism things

 

[Tom Jones]

On a srs note i believe in relative free will.
God existence does makes probabilistically and rationnally the most sense.
We don’t have full free will as in being able to do everything we want, it’s absurd and would require from us to be god, all knowing and all powerful.
But God gives us opportunities that we either take or leave, to use either for good or for bad and we will then acquire those deeds, and be able to be judged on it, based on the principle of responsibility.

God creates us with sin and a proclivity to all sorts of forbidden shit. Even most free will believers accept that most thought process is unconscious. That is not free.
We can take drugs, brain injuries etc that completely changes us in various different ways. We can’t just stop a panic attack by saying “fuck off”.
That’s not freedom to me.

 

[Deleted member 18840]

God creates us with sin and a proclivity to all sorts of forbidden shit. Even most free will believers accept that most thought process is unconscious. That is not free.
We can take drugs, brain injuries etc that completely changes us in various different ways. We can’t just stop a panic attack by saying “fuck off”.
That’s not freedom to me.

Well i blame humans for that not god. I just wished that they gave me the choice to come to life or not, or at least to not bother me if i just want to rott. But no they prevent me to be fine with the limited time span i have to live.
I hate humans.

 

[Tom Jones]

modern neuroscience is still pretty garbage. I don't think we are past the "this area of his brain lights up so he is happy" stage yet

everything operates on a quantum level. this is like analyzing traffic but ignoring individual cars

Yeah it’s not advanced yet but still everything points to a determinist brain. So far at least.
Obviously yeah everything is subject to physics and quantum mechanics but I meant that it’s influence is negligible to the brain, and we can assume it’s physical properties is explained satisfactory using classical mechanics.

 

[Tom Jones]

I hate to have, me too, some part of gayranian dna - just basically iranian dna.

Bro I ain’t gay I just like dick

 

[Harold O'brien]

Yeah it’s not advanced yet but still everything points to a determinist brain. So far at least.
Obviously yeah everything is subject to physics and quantum mechanics but I meant that it’s influence is negligible to the brain, and we can assume it’s physical properties is explained satisfactory using classical mechanics.

I'm not saying things can't be modeled. but models don't tell us anything about the ontological nature of the universe. they are just guesses that seem to work for a long time

 

[Tom Jones]

I'm not saying things can't be modeled. but models don't tell us anything about the ontological nature of the universe. they are just guesses that seem to work for a long time

Very good point. Should have used that term earlier.

We uae maths to create models that can predict future, and luckily for us they are extremely reliable (at least in classical mechanics).

 

[RecessedChinCel]

God creates us with sin and a proclivity to all sorts of forbidden shit. Even most free will believers accept that most thought process is unconscious. That is not free.
We can take drugs, brain injuries etc that completely changes us in various different ways. We can’t just stop a panic attack by saying “fuck off”.
That’s not freedom to me.

Our ability for rational thought is really new. Roughly 50,000 we began burying our dead in ritualistic ceremonies, and making traps for hunting.

Often our instincts and primal desires overpower our ability for rational thought.

Ex: nutting inside a thot’s pussy even when you know the consequences.

Or attacking somebody who pisses you off even though rationally you know you’d be charged with assault.

Do other mammals have “free will”?

I don’t know

We do know that personality and propencity for certain behaviors are largely genetically inherited