autistic ramblings

[yussimania]

i might be wrong on this so feel free to correct me please

basically i've been having dreams and thoughts recently to wrap my head around rotation

i think the reason we see people ascend frontally is less to do with rotation - the most important thing is a solid downgraft and a big mandibular body advancement - specifically the genioplasty part which will affect your JFA and LAFH the most due to movement in both saggital and transverse planes

gonial angle changes are limited you will never achieve a "rotational morph" where the entire MMC rotates due to OP limits and the type of cut for the bsso and lefort

the standard cut for bsso is the type C. this is anterior to the ramus and gonion which are key landmarks to the gonial angle. so now we need to change the relationship between the gonion and the menton however normal advancement with the standard few degrees of rotation won't change the MPA and thus gonial angle

so here is my idea; go big or go home. the more advancement you have the longer the lever and therefore wider the arc it travels during rotation. so if someone has severe sfs and class 2 - a large advancement of say 20mm at the pogonion will yield far greater rotational results than your basic bsso for your standard recession. by this logic we can see peoples gonial angles actually change for once

note the step off at the highlighted area due to the CWR - the gonial angle now has improved greatly increasing his LAFH

but if we advance too much you risk being antefaced - remember we want the convexity profile (pog-subnasale-nasion or glabella) at around 180° +- 5°

if your MPA and OP are close together then you will have some benefits with rotation - for example downswung people with a downward tilted MPA and OP when they have a bsso with CCW impaction their MPA will generally improve and theoretically will improve the gonial angle - however this is theoretical as I haven't personally seen a result yet

edit: I've only talked about hypodivergent patterns here not hyperdivergent since I myself am one

 

[yussimania]

@Lookologist003
@thecel

 

[yussimania]

brutal how no one responded to this

 

[Lookologist003]

if your MPA and OP are close together then you will have some benefits with rotation - for example downswung people with a downward tilted MPA and OP when they have a bsso with CCW impaction their MPA will generally improve and theoretically will improve the gonial angle - however this is theoretical as I haven't personally seen a result yet

Rotation is the cure for downswung jawcels.

I need an appendix. I have no idea what most of these acronyms are. I don't know what JFA or LAFH or MMC are. MPA is widely known, but if you want greys or retards like myself to have a hope of replying with a point and not 0 then you ought to use their long names. In current looks theory there is a serious issue with symbology that makes communication of ideas slow and prone to misinterpretation. It's a mistake to use acronyms in public when so little education is available and those greys don't even know the syllabus.

by this logic we can see peoples gonial angles actually change for once

Your gonial angle is your mandibular plane angle plus a right angle. Your gonial angle is your mandibular plane angle, essentially. Unless you have the illusive ramus tilt that I'm not so sure even occurs. So any rotation adds to the mandibular plane angle and the gonial angle.

I did take the time to your read your thread and I can say these are autistic ramblings. My ramblings are: (1) if your mandibular plane angle is doo doo, then you need rotation; and (2) if your jaws are recessed then it needs to be unrecessed with bimax; and (3) if it is both, you need them together. Most likely it will a joint problem if you are hyperdivertant or hypodivergant.

 

[yussimania]

Rotation is the cure for downswung jawcels.

I need an appendix. I have no idea what most of these acronyms are. I don't know what JFA or LAFH or MMC are. MPA is widely known, but if you want greys or retards like myself to have a hope of replying with a point and not 0 then you ought to use their long names. In current looks theory there is a serious issue with symbology that makes communication of ideas slow and prone to misinterpretation. It's a mistake to use acronyms in public when so little education is available and those greys don't even know the syllabus.


Your gonial angle is your mandibular plane angle plus a right angle. Your gonial angle is your mandibular plane angle, essentially. Unless you have the illusive ramus tilt that I'm not so sure even occurs. So any rotation adds to the mandibular plane angle and the gonial angle.

I did take the time to your read your thread and I can say these are autistic ramblings. My ramblings are: (1) if your mandibular plane angle is doo doo, then you need rotation; and (2) if your jaws are recessed then it needs to be unrecessed with bimax; and (3) if it is both, you need them together. Most likely it will a joint problem if you are hyperdivertant or hypodivergant.

my bad I just typed it out without accounting for that

Thanks for the response - It's just I had seen a lot of differing opinions with MPA/gonial angle changes for normal bimaxes; possibly due to tiktok everyone hears the word ccw rotation and imagines a crazy transformation when in reality it is quite limited and dependent

JFA = jaw frontal angle
LAFH = lower anterior facial height (important vocab i believe should be used often)
MMC = maxillomandibular complex
OP = Occlusal plane

 

[bossman]

brutal how no one responded to this

I would but I'm too low IQ for this stuff bhai

 

[yussimania]

I would but I'm too low IQ for this stuff bhai

essentially I had been browsing alot and wrestling with the evidence

ChatGPT told me and showed me studies that the result of bimax rotation doesn't significantly improve the gonial angle or change the mpa

Because Im a newcel I thought jaw surgery rotation is the same as a morph or the tiktok ideal of ccw where everything rotates up - unfortunately that's not the case

Then I saw people who have really low Lower Anterior Facial height such as the sfs person i showed in the thread

After surgery his face opened up more meaning the gonial angle HAD to change

he had a 20mm pogonion advancement which might seem like a lot that could dogmaxx him but remember it's cwr meaning it will go back and downwards so more advancement is needed to have the facial convexity as class 1 and not convex like class 2 or concave like class 3

So my conclusion is that for gonial angle changes that are significant within bimax you either have to be downswung or have really low Lower Anterior Facial Height; allowing for more advancement which means a longer lever and so a wider arc during rotation which is physics (idk how to draw it but ask AI about longer levers creating wider arcs compared to shorter levers at the same degree of rotation - now with the Downswung people they need an OP and MPA that is closely related for ccw to cure the gonial angle) - that's what the autistic ramblings are

if you're not one of these 2 and want a significant change in the gonial angle then you should consider implants or possibly mandible shaving

 

[Lookologist003]

everyone hears the word ccw rotation and imagines a crazy transformation when in reality it is quite limited and dependent

It's only good when your jaws have become downswung because of mouth breathing or whatever causes that adenoid face pattern.

WHY DO KIDS GET UGLY?

My name is Karol, and I am the person you see in the first image. As a medical student, I saw a number of flaws in the way modern medicine a...

whydokidsgetugly-jawcare.blogspot.com

(Don't read most of this blog. It's useful for its description of adenoid faces, but otherwise is a trite spiel about the virtues of mewing. I don't decry mewing, but we are all adults with wages to pay for surgery and not the months or years that adult mewing occurs over.)

The adenoid face pattern is typically what people mean when they say downward grown. It is a face with downswung jaws. Thecel defined it with the word downswung, which I think is better, because swing implies that it can, and it can be, be reversed with a little maxillary impaction and CCW rotation. Do you believe me when I say that we are very flawed in symbology. But if I stay in discussion and debate, I try to be more consistent, as anybody who wants to understand and teach looks theory should be.

Lower Anterior Facial height

You see I stake that this is simply jaw height. I don't mean jawbone, I mean the height of the lower and upper jaws together as they are closed, that is the distance from the bottom of the chin to to the nasal spine or the bottom of the nasal aperture (that's the hole between the orbits) in approximation by superficial features of the face.

So my conclusion is that for gonial angle changes that are significant within bimax you either have to be downswung or have really low Lower Anterior Facial Height - that's what the autistic ramblings are

Consider that the end if you don't have any more comment. Maybe you will join the enlightened class of us who ignore gonial angle because it is the mandibular plane angle that makes or breaks a face, and remember the equation:
gonial angle = mandibular plane angle + ∟ - ramus tilt (ramus tilt is almost always zero)

It's easier to remember that your mandibular plane angle is fucked the more it veers away from 15 degrees. There are no mandibular plane angles bellow zero degrees. And when you draw a jawline or see a jawline, its the mandibular plane angle that your brain interprets, as it's a line in context to the facial features. In all these ways gonial angle is an afterthought and is better left as one.

15 degrees is human MPA. Anything else is deformity and subhumanity.

 

[yussimania]

It's only good when your jaws have become downswung because of mouth breathing or whatever causes that adenoid face pattern.

WHY DO KIDS GET UGLY?

My name is Karol, and I am the person you see in the first image. As a medical student, I saw a number of flaws in the way modern medicine a...

whydokidsgetugly-jawcare.blogspot.com

(Don't read most of this blog. It's useful for its description of adenoid faces, but otherwise is a trite spiel about the virtues of mewing. I don't decry mewing, but we are all adults with wages to pay for surgery and not the months or years that adult mewing occurs over.)

The adenoid face pattern is typically what people mean when they say downward grown. It is a face with downswung jaws. Thecel defined it with the word downswung, which I think is better, because swing implies that it can, and it can be, be reversed with a little maxillary impaction and CCW rotation. Do you believe me when I say that we are very flawed in symbology. But if I stay in discussion and debate, I try to be more consistent, as anybody who wants to understand and teach looks theory should be.


You see I stake that this is simply jaw height. I don't mean jawbone, I mean the height of the lower and upper jaws together as they are closed, that is the distance from the bottom of the chin to to the nasal spine or the bottom of the nasal aperture (that's the hole between the orbits) in approximation by superficial features of the face.


Consider that the end if you don't have any more comment. Maybe you will join the enlightened class of us who ignore gonial angle because it is the mandibular plane angle that makes or breaks a face, and remember the equation:
gonial angle = mandibular plane angle + ∟ - ramus tilt (ramus tilt is almost always zero)

It's easier to remember that your mandibular plane angle is fucked the more it veers away from 15 degrees. There are no mandibular plane angles bellow zero degrees. And when you draw a jawline or see a jawline, its the mandibular plane angle that your brain interprets, as it's a line in context to the facial features. In all these ways gonial angle is an afterthought and is better left as one.

thank you for this valuable insight - I noticed this too with this thread

The Side-Effect Fallacy of Looks Theory and Why Gonial Angle Is Overrated

People often determine the importance of a trait by examining how much attractiveness is affected by altering the trait. E.g. by using morphs like these: People conclude, from these morphs, that the gonial angle is one of—if not the—most important factors in a jaw’s attractiveness. Wrong...

looksmax.org

MPA seems to be superior although I must say that Ramus height becomes very important there to avoid having a compressed look at lower MPAs

 

[Oliebol]

MPA seems to be superior although I must say that Ramus height becomes very important there to avoid having a compressed look at lower MPAs

So you guys are saying that the MPA is more important than the gonial angle? This makes sense because someone like o Pry has a high gonial angle but still a really good side profile

 

[nishka]

i wish i could understand all this but commenting for engagement / emotioanl support

 

[yussimania]

i wish i could understand all this but commenting for engagement / emotioanl support

essentially I had been browsing alot and wrestling with the evidence

ChatGPT told me and showed me studies that the result of bimax rotation doesn't significantly improve the gonial angle or change the mpa

Because Im a newcel I thought jaw surgery rotation is the same as a morph or the tiktok ideal of ccw where everything rotates up - unfortunately that's not the case

Then I saw people who have really low Lower Anterior Facial height such as the sfs person i showed in the thread

After surgery his face opened up more meaning the gonial angle HAD to change

he had a 20mm pogonion advancement which might seem like a lot that could dogmaxx him but remember it's cwr meaning it will go back and downwards so more advancement is needed to have the facial convexity as class 1 and not convex like class 2 or concave like class 3

So my conclusion is that for gonial angle changes that are significant within bimax you either have to be downswung or have really low Lower Anterior Facial Height; allowing for more advancement which means a longer lever and so a wider arc during rotation which is physics (idk how to draw it but ask AI about longer levers creating wider arcs compared to shorter levers at the same degree of rotation - now with the Downswung people they need an OP and MPA that is closely related for ccw to cure the gonial angle) - that's what the autistic ramblings are

if you're not one of these 2 and want a significant change in the gonial angle then you should consider implants or possibly mandible shaving

 

[ltn_looksminner]

180° +- 5°

Shouldnt it be 170

 

[nishka]

so here is my idea; go big or go home. the more advancement you have the longer the lever and therefore wider the arc it travels during rotation. so if someone has severe sfs and class 2 - a large advancement of say 20mm at the pogonion will yield far greater rotational results than your basic bsso for your standard recession. by this logic we can see peoples gonial angles actually change for once

my bsso is hella minimal does this apply for me too? go big or go home?

<3

 

[yussimania]

my bsso is hella minimal does this apply for me too? go big or go home?

<3

ur not hypodivergent you have normal LAFH

send ur xray again

 

[nishka]

ur not hypodivergent you have normal LAFH

send ur xray again

there you go sir

 

[yussimania]

View attachment 4568691
View attachment 4568696

there you go sir

ur an implant + optional shave off case - if you want to change your perceived MPA or gonial angle

ur occlusal plane is fine so not much ccw you can get done

 

[nishka]

ur an implant + optional shave off case - if you want to change your perceived MPA or gonial angle

ur occlusal plane is fine so not much ccw you can get done

shave what off? and implant where?

 

[nishka]

if only jaw angle implants didnt have the masseter problem should i risk ikt

ur an implant + optional shave off case - if you want to change your perceived MPA or gonial angle

ur occlusal plane is fine so not much ccw you can get done

 

[yussimania]

if only jaw angle implants didnt have the masseter problem should i risk ikt

you dont need it anyway lad the genio would do your profile wonders

 

[nishka]

you dont need it anyway lad the genio would do your profile wonders

LFG bro lets hope i mog