better to be downgrown or forward grown

[KeepCopingLads]

im not talking about being bonless, two developed skulls
would it be better to be downgrown or forward grown
forward grown candidate:

downward grown candidate:

does it depend on pheno or something and how does one decide?

Spoiler: tags

@idkmanimao @Bryce @Zeekie @Iraniancel @flambria (only tagging 5 goys)

 

[MaracasMogs]

Forward grown ofc

 

[idkmanimao]

im not talking about being bonless, two developed skulls
would it be better to be downgrown or forward grown
forward grown candidate: View attachment 3972589
downward grown candidate:View attachment 3972593


does it depend on pheno or something and how does one decide?

Spoiler: tags

@idkmanimao @Bryce @Zeekie @Iraniancel @flambria (only tagging 5 goys)

forwards better imao

 

[KeepCopingLads]

forwards better imao

Forward grown ofc

wait imma make a morph of someone downgrown and give them forward growth

 

[guttedd]

how is this even a question... ofc forward grown lmfao

 

[KeepCopingLads]

how is this even a question... ofc forward grown lmfao

Cus you have downgrown niggas mogging forward grown niggas, maybe there's a sweet spot in the middle idk

 

[guttedd]

Cus you have downgrown niggas mogging forward grown niggas, maybe there's a sweet spot in the middle idk

that is true ig, but overall forward grown all fucking day

 

[KeepCopingLads]

that is true ig, but overall forward grown all fucking day

forwards better imao

Forward grown ofc

shit morph but you get the idea
better than before?

 

[2414763h]

Forward grown of course

 

[MaracasMogs]

View attachment 3972684 shit morph but you get the idea
better than before?

Good morph imo dw
Ofc way more appealing
The hyoid is weird tho

 

[KeepCopingLads]

incase anyone was wondering why i was asking this question (yh ik nobody was)
im thinking of making a modified facemask to pull the maxilla forward, but need confirmation ofc on angle

 

[hayden_sub5]

im not talking about being bonless, two developed skulls
would it be better to be downgrown or forward grown
forward grown candidate: View attachment 3972589
downward grown candidate:View attachment 3972593


does it depend on pheno or something and how does one decide?

Spoiler: tags

@idkmanimao @Bryce @Zeekie @Iraniancel @flambria (only tagging 5 goys)

It’s better to be 50/50, but generally forward is more important

 

[willbetruechang2299]

Imo it depends how long the midface is but generally forward grown is better

 

[KeepCopingLads]

Imo it depends how long the midface is but generally forward grown is better

What if the midface is longer compared to rest of face?

 

[KeepCopingLads]

Imo it depends how long the midface is but generally forward grown is better

I also remember reading a nigga talk about how clockwise rotation is important

 

[willbetruechang2299]

What if the midface is longer compared to rest of face?

I'd say slight downward growth to try and balance out the facial thirds slightly. There was this really gl guy I saw on tiktok with a long midface and he showed his side profile, it was forward grown with no signs of downward growth and he seemed kind of uncanny since the lower third was getting overpowered. Of course it will make skull even longer but I believe it is necessary to compromise a bit for aesthetic.

 

[willbetruechang2299]

I also remember reading a nigga talk about how clockwise rotation is important

Yes of course, impacts the teeth significantly, fixing any malocclusions or issues with facial convexity angle

 

[KeepCopingLads]

Yes of course, impacts the teeth significantly, fixing any malocclusions or issues with facial convexity angle

Elaborate further
I don't understand (the last part)

 

[willbetruechang2299]

Elaborate further
I don't understand (the last part)

Yes of course.
In the first picture, you can see right now these are patients with severe recession in either the upper or lower jaw, leading to either a class 2 or 3 malocclusion. With CCW rotation they've moved either mandible or maxilla forward while fixing the malocclusion in the first place. Note the complete disappearance of any problems regarding both patient's bites.
About facial convexity angle, you can see in the second picture with either underbites or overbites, the facial convexity angle (glabella to nose tip to chin) is unideal while in the colored part of the picture the woman with a perfect bite/good development in both jaws has an ideal facial convexity angle.

 

[willbetruechang2299]

A

View attachment 3973997View attachment 3974009
Yes of course.
In the first picture, you can see right now these are patients with severe recession in either the upper or lower jaw, leading to either a class 2 or 3 malocclusion. With CCW rotation they've moved either mandible or maxilla forward while fixing the malocclusion in the first place. Note the complete disappearance of any problems regarding both patient's bites.
About facial convexity angle, you can see in the second picture with either underbites or overbites, the facial convexity angle (glabella to nose tip to chin) is unideal while in the colored part of the picture the woman with a perfect bite/good development in both jaws has an ideal facial convexity angle.

And just to note you can see noticeable improvement in both patient's facial convexity in the first picture after surgery, but it is quite slight as they didn't go for anything else to move upper maxilla or genio

 

[KeepCopingLads]

View attachment 3973997View attachment 3974009
Yes of course.
In the first picture, you can see right now these are patients with severe recession in either the upper or lower jaw, leading to either a class 2 or 3 malocclusion. With CCW rotation they've moved either mandible or maxilla forward while fixing the malocclusion in the first place. Note the complete disappearance of any problems regarding both patient's bites.
About facial convexity angle, you can see in the second picture with either underbites or overbites, the facial convexity angle (glabella to nose tip to chin) is unideal while in the colored part of the picture the woman with a perfect bite/good development in both jaws has an ideal facial convexity angle.

I meant clockwise rotation mb

 

[willbetruechang2299]

I meant clockwise rotation mb

elaborate a bit more i'm kinda slow

 

[KeepCopingLads]

elaborate a bit more i'm kinda slow

I remember reading somewhere that clockwise rotation is just as important as counter clockwise rotation
I think like cw rotation of actual skull and CCW rotation of maxilla and mandible

 

[willbetruechang2299]

I remember reading somewhere that clockwise rotation is just as important as counter clockwise rotation
I think like cw rotation of actual skull and CCW rotation of maxilla and mandible

Yeah you're right about that, it's important to keep the occlusal plane ~7 i believe.
Too much cw rotation will lead to a "long face" because of the mandible growing downward. Mostly influenced during childhood and into puberty by habits and ofc genetics

 

[KeepCopingLads]

Yeah you're right about that, it's important to keep the occlusal plane ~7 i believe.
Too much cw rotation will lead to a "long face" because of the mandible growing downward. Mostly influenced during childhood and into puberty by habits and ofc genetics

after i do ncr
imma try get ortho work done
palate expander then facemask
with the facemask, i found out that it causes retrusion to the mandible and pulls the maxilla forward and downward
so imma make my own modified facemask (a cricket helmet with two rods poking out to attach elastics to)
can you tell me ideal measurements so i know how much growth i need and at what angle to attach elastics at

 

[karba]

im not talking about being bonless, two developed skulls
would it be better to be downgrown or forward grown
forward grown candidate: View attachment 3972589
downward grown candidate:View attachment 3972593


does it depend on pheno or something and how does one decide?

Spoiler: tags

@idkmanimao @Bryce @Zeekie @Iraniancel @flambria (only tagging 5 goys)

I have downward growth and I hate it, no under eye support, I would’ve had good proportions if I was more forward growth and I have midface of doom

 

[KeepCopingLads]

I have downward growth and I hate it, no under eye support, I would’ve had good proportions if I was more forward growth and I have midface of doom

you can have downward growth and not be recessed
you're just recessed

 

[willbetruechang2299]

after i do ncr
imma try get ortho work done
palate expander then facemask
with the facemask, i found out that it causes retrusion to the mandible and grows the maxilla forward and downward
so imma make my own modified facemask (a cricket helmet with two rods poking out to attach elastics to)
can you tell me ideal measurements so i know how much growth i need and at what angle to attach elastics at

yeah, it depends on sna snb and anb
sna is ideally 82 deg
snb is 80 deg
anb is ~2deg to have a class 1 malocclusion, which is the ideal bite
based on that and your own x-rays/scans you can find out how off your own skull is from the ideal and find the amount of growth you need
for example, if you have an anb discrepancy of ~2+ then you will need ~2mm of maxillary advancement.
now to max out your forward growth and stop downward growth orthopedic surgeons usually have ~30 deg upward and downward from the occlusal plane when attaching elastics so that's the angle
The rule of thumb is 1 deg change = 1mm of forward growth

 

[KeepCopingLads]

yeah, it depends on sna snb and anb
sna is ideally 82 deg
snb is 80 deg
anb is ~2deg to have a class 1 malocclusion, which is the ideal bite
based on that and your own x-rays/scans you can find out how off your own skull is from the ideal and find the amount of growth you need
for example, if you have an anb discrepancy of ~2+ then you will need ~2mm of maxillary advancement.
now to max out your forward growth and stop downward growth orthopedic surgeons usually have ~30 deg upward and downward from the occlusal plane when attaching elastics so that's the angle
The rule of thumb is 1 deg change = 1mm of forward growth

before i do ortho work, i'll get an x ray of my skull and tag you bhai

 

[KeepCopingLads]

yeah, it depends on sna snb and anb
sna is ideally 82 deg
snb is 80 deg
anb is ~2deg to have a class 1 malocclusion, which is the ideal bite
based on that and your own x-rays/scans you can find out how off your own skull is from the ideal and find the amount of growth you need
for example, if you have an anb discrepancy of ~2+ then you will need ~2mm of maxillary advancement.
now to max out your forward growth and stop downward growth orthopedic surgeons usually have ~30 deg upward and downward from the occlusal plane when attaching elastics so that's the angle
The rule of thumb is 1 deg change = 1mm of forward growth

also what is sna snb and anb
never heard of those abbreviations before

 

[willbetruechang2299]

also what is sna snb and anb
never heard of those abbreviations before

Abbreviations in cephalometric analysis, they stand for sellanasion points
Here, i'll link some medical documents that go a bit more in depth because this is some nitpicky stuff
They're all from the first page of google, but they're there for a reason. Gave me lots of knowledge
nih.gov
Wikipedia (for basic explanation)
Dental journal for dentists. Goes very in-depth and very good for learning (recommend reading this one after dentalprotection)

 

[KeepCopingLads]

Abbreviations in cephalometric analysis, they stand for sellanasion points
Here, i'll link some medical documents that go a bit more in depth because this is some nitpicky stuff
They're all from the first page of google, but they're there for a reason. Gave me lots of knowledge
nih.gov
Wikipedia (for basic explanation)
Dental journal for dentists. Goes very in-depth and very good for learning (recommend reading this one after dentalprotection)

mirin your knowledge

 

[KeepCopingLads]

Abbreviations in cephalometric analysis, they stand for sellanasion points
Here, i'll link some medical documents that go a bit more in depth because this is some nitpicky stuff
They're all from the first page of google, but they're there for a reason. Gave me lots of knowledge
nih.gov
Wikipedia (for basic explanation)
Dental journal for dentists. Goes very in-depth and very good for learning (recommend reading this one after dentalprotection)

if my maxilla comes forward
does 1. my dorsal hump go away
and 2. does the mandible follow

 

[iraqi]

im not talking about being bonless, two developed skulls
would it be better to be downgrown or forward grown
forward grown candidate: View attachment 3972589
downward grown candidate:View attachment 3972593


does it depend on pheno or something and how does one decide?

Spoiler: tags

@idkmanimao @Bryce @Zeekie @Iraniancel @flambria (only tagging 5 goys)

Forward ofc, downward w bones is more unique tho, maybe easier to model depending on the type of modeling

 

[willbetruechang2299]

if my maxilla comes forward
does 1. my dorsal hump go away
and 2. does the mandible follow

It doesn't fully go away since a hump is made up out of bone+cartilage but the prominence of it will definitely reduce some. The maxilla comes forward adds support to nose tissue and upper lip, which gives the illusion of a dorsal hump going away. To be honest depending on the prominence of it, it probably won't even be that noticeable. Try to imagine someone's maxilla growing forward and imagine how the nose shifts because of that, that's what you will expect.
For your other question, yes it does follow. If you want me to explain why I'd be glad to as well.
Also, i realized my link to dentalprotection didn't send, so I'll link it again here.
dentalprotection beginner's guide to cephalometric analysis

 

[KeepCopingLads]

If you want me to explain why I'd be glad to as well.

please do

 

[willbetruechang2299]

please do

Basically if the maxilla is recessed/not forward grown enough, the mandible will have to grow downwards to compensate as the body will try to preserve a "natural" or decent bite. By moving the maxilla forward, the mandible will come forward since it is "connected" to the maxilla through the bite and by the temperomandibular joint. It's important to not move the maxilla too far forward however, as then the mandible isn't long enough to catch up, leading to a class 2 malocclusion. So in most cases, they will naturally move together.

 

[kana]

Org isn't downgrown; he has large masseters, giving him an antegonial notch and making his jaw appear a little "downgrown". If org was truly downgrown, I promise you he wouldn't be that good-looking lol

 

[KeepCopingLads]

Org isn't downgrown; he has large masseters, giving him an antegonial notch and making his jaw appear a little "downgrown". If org was truly downgrown, I promise you he wouldn't be that good-looking lol

Disagree

 

[tweak]

how is this even a question bro obv forward growth

 

[KeepCopingLads]

how is this even a question bro obv forward growth

Ok guys are getting confused

Forward grown of course

how is this even a question... ofc forward grown lmfao

I mean to say that I've seen guys with developed faces (no recession) and downward growth have better front profiles than those with forward growth on average

 

[kana]

Disagree

i’m objectivly right