CCW MAXILLARY ROTATION

[ropemax]

How far are we from achieving the holy grail of horseceldom? Has anyone asked Dr. Moon for a follow-up to his 2015 MARPE & N2 implants paper? It's been 6 years and it seems like the technique depicted in sim. F never made it to clinical trials. Half of the
(epi)genetically drooling autists who got hyped by his revelation have gone bald by now and would only benefit from a hydraulic press treatment to fix their stallion-like abomination of a face.

Why isn't this shit more heavily researched and well funded?
Maxilla is literally a fucking chadmaker.

Rotation and protraction is everything. The first person to crack this puzzle and patent an appliance will become a billionaire. This is a LeFort III tier procedure aka michael angelo face-sculpting.

MSE has the potential to be the single most important invention in the history of functional AND aesthetic orthodontics. Won Moon would go on to become a god among us peasants; in 50 years we would be singing him praises in Jerusalem temples.

Facemask, crane, Bollard plates... it doesn't seem to produce significant results


Can any high IQ users chime in and share their thoughts/ideas about this? What is the current biggest challenge in true CCW rotation of the maxilla and which solutions have the highest potential according to the academia? Do you think it's even possible in adults, and if so, which horse would you bet on?

The efficacy of maxillary protraction protocols with the micro-implant-assisted rapid palatal expander (MARPE) and the novel N2 mini-implant—a finite element study

Maxillary protraction with the novel N2 mini-implant- and micro-implant-assisted rapid palatal expander (MARPE) can potentially provide significant skeletal effects without surgery, even in older patients where conventional facemask therapy has limited ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[pizza]

mewing>mse,and mse is probably the best thing for maxilla,much less invasive than lf3

 

[ropemax]

mewing>mse,and mse is probably the best thing for maxilla,much less invasive than lf3

Myofunctional therapy for adults is a cope

 

[pizza]

Myofunctional therapy for adults is a cope

nothing is immutable, no matter the age, our body has an incredible capacity to change

 

[ropemax]

nothing is immutable, no matter the age, our body has an incredible capacity to change

The incredible capacity is limited by fusion of the maxillary suture.

 

[pizza]

The incredible capacity is limited by fusion of the maxillary suture.

nothing is immutable, it never fully merges, the same with our growth plates

 

[ropemax]

nothing is immutable, it never fully merges, the same with our growth plates

Cope harder

 

[Deleted member 6423]

honestly I suspect there are some success stories that are hidden from the public by people who wish to reduce their competition by not giving out their secrets.

you sound knowledgeable on this topic, when you say maxillary sutures, are you referring to the mid palatal suture that runs through the middle of the alveolar ridge?

 

[pizza]

Cope harder

sorry,its not cope

 

[Deleted member 8758]

MSE is a meme

-had MSE + FM (BOW) btw

The CCW rotation image was a simulation as well.

 

[ropemax]

are you referring to the mid palatal suture that runs through the middle of the alveolar ridge?

Yes

 

[Deleted member 6423]

Yes

corticopuncture can solve that

 

[ropemax]

corticopuncture can solve that

Corticopuncture sometimes isn't enough to split the suture using MSE. Tongue induced split is a pipe dream

 

[Deleted member 6423]

Corticopuncture sometimes isn't enough to split the suture using MSE. Tongue induced split is a pipe dream

the effects of using corticopuncture to hard mew would be a good cope to explore. also the effects of not just improving your posture but using a posture that applies force in a “as close to opposite” vector could amplify the force generated greatly. thumbpulling and other autistic manual force copes could be supplemented. finally, pertaining to corticopuncture itself, applying an excessive amount of punctures, as if you’re un-mending the suture through corticopuncture alone, could prove to be beneficial to splitting the suture, albeit dangerous but ascension or death.

 

[PURE ARYAN GENETICS]

What is the current biggest challenge in true CCW rotation of the maxilla

the back of the maxilla needs to be pulled down.

 

[ropemax]

the effects of using corticopuncture to hard mew would be a good cope to explore. also the effects of not just improving your posture but using a posture that applies force in a “as close to opposite” vector could amplify the force generated greatly. thumbpulling and other autistic manual force copes could be supplemented. finally, pertaining to corticopuncture itself, applying an excessive amount of punctures, as if you’re un-mending the suture through corticopuncture alone, could prove to be beneficial to splitting the suture, albeit dangerous but ascension or death.

I don't think that corticopuncture alone could split the suture but even if it could, that's not the real problem. Indeed, mewing induced CCW rotation would be ideal because it would happen via resorption and deposition of the bone instead of displacement type movement (hard as fuck to achieve as you can observe in all FM attempts), effectively remodelling whole maxilla's shape (both up and forward). I'm not sure about this but i think that the real challenge here is maintaining split sutures. You could technically achieve a split with MSE, take it out and mew to ascension but before any real remodelling could take place, the suture would reossify. It's also disappointing that you can't effectively mew with MSE installed; if that was the case, you could wear it indefinitely, turning the screws back and forth to prevent over-expansion & keep the suture open and let mewing do its magic with no time constraints

 

[pizza]

honestly I suspect there are some success stories that are hidden from the public by people who wish to reduce their competition by not giving out their secrets.

sounds like esoterism,because is

 

[ropemax]

the back of the maxilla needs to be pulled down.

What's the move here in your opinion?

 

[PURE ARYAN GENETICS]

What's the move here in your opinion?

appliance wise? they could fit rubber bands to a screw in the back of the palate and to the mandible

 

[Deleted member 6423]

I don't think that corticopuncture alone could split the suture but even if it could, that's not the real problem. Indeed, mewing induced CCW rotation would be ideal because it would happen via resorption and deposition of the bone instead of displacement type movement (hard as fuck to achieve as you can observe in all FM attempts), effectively remodelling whole maxilla's shape (both up and forward). I'm not sure about this but i think that the real challenge here is maintaining split sutures. You could technically achieve a split with MSE, take it out and mew to ascension but before any real remodelling could take place, the suture would reossify. It's also disappointing that you can't effectively mew with MSE installed; if that was the case, you could wear it indefinitely, turning the screws back and forth to prevent over-expansion & keep the suture open and let mewing do its magic with no time constraints

I don’t know for certain but i’m not sure that the suture could reossify so quickly, also I think you’re underestimating the force that can be generated through hard mewing in a chintucked neck posture.

forward head posture article
One thing this article outlines is how different head postures manifest in either retrusive or protrusive jaws. when the extensor muscles are dominant, as with a class 2 jaw, the jaw is retruded and the head is in a forward position and this may lead to downward growth. Inversely, the class 3 figure is classified by being flexor dominant, and promotes jaw protrusion and overbite, which is what people with downward growth lack.(the images are a bit misleading i’ll explain in a spoiler)

Spoiler: why the images in the article are misleading

Basically, the image of the class 3 jaw portrays a person with a retrusive jaw, despite the article ascertaining that this posture promotes a forward jaw, in fact the article classifies this posture as being abnormal and unideal but for people with downward growth and forward head posture, this is a figure they want to come as close as possible to

But my point is that maintaining this flexor dominant posture, which is the direct antithesis to the extensor dominant and therefore downward growth promoting posture, is a primary factor in solving downward growth. further, an exercise such as laying on your stomach on an elevated surface, with your head and neck hanging off the edge and therefore not being supported, and then engaging the flexor muscles by hypercontracting your neck in a chintuck or in other words engaging both the capital and cervical flexor muscles, should produce enough force to induce bone remodeling of some sort, and when mentioning corticopuncture induced suture weakening, should be adequate in preventing ossification.

 

[Deleted member 8856]

Teeth being tipped inward is important

 

[spark]

nothing is immutable, no matter the age, our body has an incredible capacity to change

cope

 

[noprogressno]

Facemask, crane, Bollard plates... it doesn't seem to produce significant results

I don't understand where everyone got this conclusion from. How can you know without it being tested anyways? No one has ever used bollard plates on any adult before for the purpose of protraction. Therefore there isn't any result. A few years ago before won moon invented mse; people, orthodontists and surgeons would probably laugh if somebody told them maxillary expansion with sutural opening on adults is possible. Today not only they know that it is possible, but expected with the right device(MARPE). But with the ''right device''. Obviously if you go give someone a regular hyrax expander or RPE, results would be disasterous probably with some teeth getting pushed out of the gums(happened to ronald ead with agga because of the same reason) and with some dentoalveolar effects with no actual skeletal effects. Why? Because teeth only need 1.7 grams of force to move. How many grams of force can tongue exert? Up to 500 grams. How much force is needed to achieve any forward movement on adults? At least 1kg of force(source: Dr.Ting). How much force can bollard plates bear without getting displaced? Up to 350 grams. Get the picture? Bollards are probably not used on adults, not because they are not effective, but because they can't withstand the needed amount of force. Plus, the closer skeletal anchorage is placed to the center of resistence, the better results. Bollards are placed very close to the center on resistence(zygomaticomaxillary suture), unlike protraction with mse(if you intend to use it for protraction purposes obviously, I am not talking about its transversal expansion purpose. One of the very reasons why mse is so effective for transversal expansion must be that it is placed very close to the center of resistance,the midpalatal suture.)
Anyways I have no idea where we can get with this information... I will maybe make a thread about it

 

[ropemax]

No one has ever used bollard plates on any adult before for the purpose of protraction. Therefore there isn't any result.

I am aware of that.

A few years ago before won moon invented mse; people, orthodontists and surgeons would probably laugh if somebody told them maxillary expansion with sutural opening on adults is possible

No, this had been theorized since Haas and his 1961 pig experiment study . It also wasn't Won Moon who achieved it first with his MSE but Lee with MARPE, which has been around for over a decade.


I have already covered what you pointed out about BAMP and a lot more in a thread on lookism, where it gained more traction.

 

[noprogressno]

I am aware of that.

No, this had been theorized since Haas and his 1961 pig experiment study . It also wasn't Won Moon who achieved it first with his MSE but Lee with MARPE, which has been around for over a decade.

didn't know that. Also whats the thread name on lookism, I would like to check that

 

[noprogressno]

Also unfortunately as far I know the N2 implant is like 2-3 mm's long and can't provide as stable anchorage as mse even if it existed. Thats what gives it the ability to anchor it more anteriorly without damaging any nerves or vessels, because it is not long enough to cause that.

 

[ropemax]

didn't know that. Also whats the thread name on lookism, I would like to check that

https://*******.net/threads/ccw-maxillary-rotation.775520/

 

[mogstar]

nothing is immutable, it never fully merges, the same with our growth plates

És muito burro Bro

 

[ropemax]

Also unfortunately as far I know the N2 implant is like 2-3 mm's long and can't provide as stable anchorage as mse even if it existed. Thats what gives it the ability to anchor it more anteriorly without damaging any nerves or vessels, because it is not long enough to cause that.

N2 implant is being designed to be used alongside MARPE/MSE. It's installed between the roots of different teeth; sim. F is between canine and first premolar if i remember correctly

 

[noprogressno]

N2 implant is being designed to be used alongside MARPE/MSE. It's installed between the roots of different teeth; sim. F is between canine and first premolar if i remember correctly

I know but how is an implant that short is going to provide enough anchorage without getting displaced anyways? I wish these studies about skeletal anchored maxillary protraction wouldn't just be abandonded like this, imagine having something like mse...

 

[noprogressno]

I know but how is an implant that short is going to provide enough anchorage without getting displaced anyways? I wish these studies about skeletal anchored maxillary protraction wouldn't just be abandonded like this, imagine having something like mse...

And how is it more effective than bollard plates? Isn't that implant more far away to the center of resistance than bollard plates?

 

[ropemax]

I know but how is an implant that short is going to provide enough anchorage without getting displaced anyways? I wish these studies about skeletal anchored maxillary protraction wouldn't just be abandonded like this, imagine having something like mse...

I imagine that this is resolved in the way it's engineered. The study doesn't seem to mention anything about it being a concern.

 

[ropemax]

And how is it more effective than bollard plates? Isn't that implant more far away to the center of resistance than bollard plates?

It's hard to say because the technical details of the implant are nowhere to be found. I'm not sure why it would work in such a way

 

[noprogressno]

How about bollard plates with bicortical screws? Isn't bicortical engagement what gives mse its high stabilization? I heard that most of the time MSE fails the screws failed to reach bicortical engagement, so the screws just drag or tip. Wouldn't it allow more force to be placed on(at least 1kg like doctor Ting said) to be able to achieve protraction on adults?

 

[ropemax]

How about bollard plates with bicortical screws? Isn't bicortical engagement what gives mse its high stabilization? I heard that most of the time MSE fails the screws failed to reach bicortical engagement, so the screws just drag or tip. Wouldn't it allow more force to be placed on(at least 1kg like doctor Ting said) to be able to achieve protraction on adults?

I'm afraid that's risking damage to the zygomatic buttress. Can't go in too deep

 

[noprogressno]

well thats bad news... I guess I am doomed with lefort then. Even then it only affects the lower portion of the maxilla. If someone could come up with something to protract the maxilla it would fix so many things... If only someone could come up with something like that... By the way how come MSE's screws don't damage the maxilla if bicortical engagement has the risk to damage the zygomatic buttress?

 

[ropemax]

well thats bad news... I guess I am doomed with lefort then. Even then it only affects the lower portion of the maxilla. If someone could come up with something to protract the maxilla it would fix so many things... If only someone could come up with something like that...

N2 seems promising. I emailed Dr. Moon about the current state of development and i'm waiting for a response. It's a tough situation because if you get a Le Fort I now, i don't think you'll have a shot at true CCW if this thing makes it to your ortho one day.

By the way how come MSE's screws don't damage the maxilla if bicortical engagement has the risk to damage the zygomatic buttress?

As far as i know, there is a risk of nerve damage, trauma etc. but significantly lower and more predictable than if you were to just drill plates into your buttress blindfolded.

 

[noprogressno]

N2 seems promising. I emailed Dr. Moon about the current state of development and i'm waiting for a response. It's a tough situation because if you get a Le Fort I now, i don't think you'll have a shot at true CCW if this thing makes it to your ortho one day.

As far as i know, there is a risk of nerve damage, trauma etc. but significantly lower and more predictable than if you were to just drill plates into your buttress blindfolded.

Blindfolded? Arent surgeons make sure that they are placing it at the correct place to avoid any damage with bollard plates too though. I agree it would definetely be much better to be able to achieve true counter clockwise rotation but is that implant truly ever going to come out..? When did you mail won moon about it? I doubt that he is going to respond unfortunately... I hope that he responds. Also regarding longer screws I found something interesting that might bring some interest to you as well



It seems like longer screws might be used on the other places too other than the palate. Though I am aware that the screws placed for arch distillization are not placed on zygomatic buttress, they are on pterygoid process, probably has much different structure or since there is no surgery to flap open gums it is probably giving more freedom to place it there safely...
I wish threads like this wouldn't be chronically abandonded away just because there is no solution at the moment. Truly none of the medical practices are for the sole reason of ''health'' anymore... It's just another business and if we perceive it like that new treatments will only be available according to the supply-demand relationship. If enough people start requesting an alternative to lefort eventually someone will come up with an idea in my opinion. Because money. But of course no one is interested as always...

 

[AscendingHero]

How far are we from achieving the holy grail of horseceldom? Has anyone asked Dr. Moon for a follow-up to his 2015 MARPE & N2 implants paper? It's been 6 years and it seems like the technique depicted in sim. F never made it to clinical trials. Half of the
(epi)genetically drooling autists who got hyped by his revelation have gone bald by now and would only benefit from a hydraulic press treatment to fix their stallion-like abomination of a face.

Why isn't this shit more heavily researched and well funded?
Maxilla is literally a fucking chadmaker.

Rotation and protraction is everything. The first person to crack this puzzle and patent an appliance will become a billionaire. This is a LeFort III tier procedure aka michael angelo face-sculpting.

MSE has the potential to be the single most important invention in the history of functional AND aesthetic orthodontics. Won Moon would go on to become a god among us peasants; in 50 years we would be singing him praises in Jerusalem temples.

Facemask, crane, Bollard plates... it doesn't seem to produce significant results


Can any high IQ users chime in and share their thoughts/ideas about this? What is the current biggest challenge in true CCW rotation of the maxilla and which solutions have the highest potential according to the academia? Do you think it's even possible in adults, and if so, which horse would you bet on?

The efficacy of maxillary protraction protocols with the micro-implant-assisted rapid palatal expander (MARPE) and the novel N2 mini-implant—a finite element study

Maxillary protraction with the novel N2 mini-implant- and micro-implant-assisted rapid palatal expander (MARPE) can potentially provide significant skeletal effects without surgery, even in older patients where conventional facemask therapy has limited ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

View attachment 1400615

Legit thread OP, Wasn't this a copypasta from lookism?

I am also very interested in n2 implant.

Yes

And that mid palatal suture is what's hindering giga gains you're saying?

I don't think that corticopuncture alone could split the suture but even if it could, that's not the real problem. Indeed, mewing induced CCW rotation would be ideal because it would happen via resorption and deposition of the bone instead of displacement type movement (hard as fuck to achieve as you can observe in all FM attempts), effectively remodelling whole maxilla's shape (both up and forward). I'm not sure about this but i think that the real challenge here is maintaining split sutures. You could technically achieve a split with MSE, take it out and mew to ascension but before any real remodelling could take place, the suture would reossify. It's also disappointing that you can't effectively mew with MSE installed; if that was the case, you could wear it indefinitely, turning the screws back and forth to prevent over-expansion & keep the suture open and let mewing do its magic with no time constraints

If one were age 14-16 and got mew to loosen sutures (midpalatal, circumaxillary) and mewed, do u think the sutures could theoretically stay open long enough and one could turn the screws back and forth?

Also in regards to fm achieving the bone remodeling and deposition of the whole maxila and its shape moving upwards and forwards, you said it's hard but not impossible? How could it be achieved? Pls elab

n2 implant would be the holy grail if it came out. Bone anchored facepulling too,

 

[Winter_Soldier]

Too low IQ to understand but this N2 implant will only benefit teens or adults can too hope for this holygrail you guys are talking about?

 

[noprogressno]

Also I just found another information which kinda gives another clue to my point. Its not only bone anchored maxillary expansion that has been studied for a long time. There are also animal studies for bone borne maxillary protraction. If you want to check it out by yourself you can see: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3177282/
And I am not talking about a few milimeters. 8mm of protraction was achieved. Its nearly a centimeter. In just 12-18 weeks(3-4 months). In most jaw surgeries surgeons do a 4mm of forward movement. Plus it says that the findings also demonstrated that its possible to control the direction of maxillary protraction. So it can give counterclockwise effect also. Though the only downside is that the monkeys were young monkeys... So even if something like this comes out it might not work on adults. But it probably will work in my opinion.
This study is not like a computer predicted study. All those other ones haven't been tried on a human or an animal yet. This one however is real results

 

[LebenistneHure]

Also I just found another information which kinda gives another clue to my point. Its not only bone anchored maxillary expansion that has been studied for a long time. There are also animal studies for bone borne maxillary protraction. If you want to check it out by yourself you can see: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3177282/
And I am not talking about a few milimeters. 8mm of protraction was achieved. Its nearly a centimeter. In just 12-18 weeks(3-4 months). In most jaw surgeries surgeons do a 4mm of forward movement. Plus it says that the findings also demonstrated that its possible to control the direction of maxillary protraction. So it can give counterclockwise effect also. Though the only downside is that the monkeys were young monkeys... So even if something like this comes out it might not work on adults. But it probably will work in my opinion.
This study is not like a computer predicted study. All those other ones haven't been tried on a human or an animal yet. This one however is real results

Yeah we gotta realize the biggest demand would be in the 18-26 range, since thats when most become sexually active as well as aware they wont be getting any because theyre ugly. What the fuck do I care if some 13 year old child mogger gets an even shorter maxilla?

 

[noprogressno]

Yeah we gotta realize the biggest demand would be in the 18-26 range, since thats when most become sexually active as well as aware they wont be getting any because theyre ugly. What the fuck do I care if some 13 year old child mogger gets an even shorter maxilla?

This might work on adults too. Its not just growth direction, it seperates the sutures, think somethink like distraction osteogenesis but not completely same and more natural results and it will move upper parts of maxilla and cheekbones let's say if this could theoritically work on adults. They put 600 grams on each side if I remember correctly, that equals to a total of 1.2 kilograms completely put on bone without any dental effects. I also seen some other photos about this experiment that shows how much suture seperation took place and it was a real lot but I forgot which artice it was in. If I find it I will upload that one too. Sutures can seperate in adults, mse works by seperating sutures and most of the time it does not have an age limit other than sometimes the device fails

 

[ropemax]

Legit thread OP, Wasn't this a copypasta from lookism?

I am also very interested in n2 implant.

I made a crosspost there, yes.

And that mid palatal suture is what's hindering giga gains you're saying?

All circummaxillary sutures + bone mass

If one were age 14-16 and got mew to loosen sutures (midpalatal, circumaxillary) and mewed, do u think the sutures could theoretically stay open long enough and one could turn the screws back and forth?

Before age of 15, you don't need MSE because your sutures aren't fused yet. You cannot effectively mew with the appliance installed

Also in regards to fm achieving the bone remodeling and deposition of the whole maxila and its shape moving upwards and forwards, you said it's hard but not impossible? How could it be achieved? Pls elab

It could theoretically be achieved by leaving the sutures open and mewing properly, although the rate of remodelling in an adult might prove it inefficient. I don't think fm can achieve this because the amount of force applied would simply displace the maxilla whole.

 

[ropemax]

Too low IQ to understand but this N2 implant will only benefit teens or adults can too hope for this holygrail you guys are talking about?

Both late teenagers and adults could benefit from it

 

[ropemax]

Also I just found another information which kinda gives another clue to my point. Its not only bone anchored maxillary expansion that has been studied for a long time. There are also animal studies for bone borne maxillary protraction. If you want to check it out by yourself you can see: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3177282/
And I am not talking about a few milimeters. 8mm of protraction was achieved. Its nearly a centimeter. In just 12-18 weeks(3-4 months). In most jaw surgeries surgeons do a 4mm of forward movement. Plus it says that the findings also demonstrated that its possible to control the direction of maxillary protraction. So it can give counterclockwise effect also. Though the only downside is that the monkeys were young monkeys... So even if something like this comes out it might not work on adults. But it probably will work in my opinion.
This study is not like a computer predicted study. All those other ones haven't been tried on a human or an animal yet. This one however is real results

1988 jfl. Age makes all the difference man, BAMP or FM alone gives excellent results on children and even early teens. Give me a 7 year old and i'll turn him into a model.

 

[noprogressno]

1988 jfl. Age makes all the difference man, BAMP or FM alone gives excellent results on children and even early teens. Give me a 7 year old and i'll turn him into a model.

I know but thats not what I meant. With this one a force up to 1kg on each side can be applied without the implant getting displaced. In the article it says it remained immobile(not this one, I will post the other one as well). 1kg of traction on each side so 2kg total might be enought to displace the maxilla as a whole. Thats what I meant. It might work because such big force hasn't been tried on with a bone anchored implant on an adult before right? No one can know it before someone tries it. Also 1988 wtf... Even that shows that there hasn't been any significant effort on researches about protraction. This research is the best I have seen so far with real results. Imagine what sort of treatments there would be available now if researchers put just some effort onto researching this. But anyone probably doesn't even bother since there is lefort already

 

[LebenistneHure]

This might work on adults too. Its not just growth direction, it seperates the sutures, think somethink like distraction osteogenesis but not completely same and more natural results and it will move upper parts of maxilla and cheekbones let's say if this could theoritically work on adults. They put 600 grams on each side if I remember correctly, that equals to a total of 1.2 kilograms completely put on bone without any dental effects. I also seen some other photos about this experiment that shows how much suture seperation took place and it was a real lot but I forgot which artice it was in. If I find it I will upload that one too. Sutures can seperate in adults, mse works by seperating sutures and most of the time it does not have an age limit other than sometimes the device fails

I know but thats not what I meant. With this one a force up to 1kg on each side can be applied without the implant getting displaced. In the article it says it remained immobile(not this one, I will post the other one as well). 1kg of traction on each side so 2kg total might be enought to displace the maxilla as a whole. Thats what I meant. It might work because such big force hasn't been tried on with a bone anchored implant on an adult before right? No one can know it before someone tries it. Also 1988 wtf... Even that shows that there hasn't been any significant effort on researches about protraction. This research is the best I have seen so far with real results. Imagine what sort of treatments there would be available now if researchers put just some effort onto researching this. But anyone probably doesn't even bother since there is lefort already

Well lefort doesn't exactly shorten your nose in any way, which is what I think this force application in a certain direction is implying. Yeah, lefort exists, but there isn't such a procedure that could remodel your midface, and possibly shorten the nose. That's where the interest lies. That would be a gamechanger for 90% of the people that actually need to go from subhuman looks to human.

 

[ropemax]

Anyone who is interested in the topic and resides in the US? Need someone to call a number and ask for updates regarding the N2 implant. Pm me boyos

 

[AscendingHero]

I made a crosspost there, yes.

Everyone is migrating from .net? It's been down for too long i feel as if the inevitable mammoth (forefront of the coping movement) famed horns have been stripped and unfortunately is gone for good? any updates on the site, you know anything abt the shenaningans going on there?

All circummaxillary sutures + bone mass

Please elaborate on this. What and How do the circumaxillary sutures impede giga growth? Bone mass too? how.

Before age of 15, you don't need MSE because your sutures aren't fused yet. You cannot effectively mew with the appliance installed

So at 15 they fuse or 16?

or at least harden/get more much progressively harder to effect.

And yes you can't mew effectively with the appliance installed but oh boy you can still mew.. Duration>>force. Ideally you would want to have both.

applied

According to @Sergio-OMS , MSE opens the circumaxillary sutures. @curryslayerordeath , remember @retard 's thread abt it. (tera high iq user R.I.P.)

I don't think fm can achieve this because the amount of force applied would simply displace the maxilla whole.

Wdym? I dont understand this part. Aren't we looking for pure displacement and remodeling of the maxila? sub 18 or even 20 it's possible to displace the maxila positively forward via saggital protraction of an appliance if consistent+high forces+decent sutures.