Chin wing vs. CCW-r

[Phoenix997]

For people with average (not recessed) mandible projection and a short ramus and thus down swung mandible, can chin wing on its own kind of “simulate” CCW-r of the lower mandible border?

I think it can, by lengthening the ramus in the back, and moving the chin up (shortening) and forward, you can achieve a visual effect similar to CCW-r. You are in effect shortening the front and lowering the back. Is this right?

Also for those not recessed but again with a normal mandible projection (just downgrown with bad goinal angle), wouldn’t a CW in some ways be superior to just a CCW-r bimax since it actually LENGTHENS the ramus to meet the mandible plane, whereas CCW-r does the opposite it FLATTENS the mandible plane (which is good) to meet the short ramus (which is not good).

Sure the goinal angle is improved in CCW-r cases but what’s missing in a lot of before/after results is a longer RAMUS.

This is why Prof. Sailer produces such dramatic results. I think he only does CCW-r just enough to get more projection but also lengthens the ramus with jaw angle implants.

Which brings me to my next point...

Can you even lengthen the ramus after CCW-r since you’re literally flattening the mandible to meet the short ramus... how much could you even “drop the ramus” afterward say in a second surgery if you wanted to get a chin wing or jaw implants for a wider/ squarer jaw from front view? You’d be limited in how much lengthening you can do, is that correct?

Alternatively, with just a chin wing you can lengthen the ramus up to a full cm which will flatten the steep mandible without having to rotate the mandible at all... wouldn’t this look better at all angles than just CCW-r since a longer ramus plays a huge role in jaw aesthetics?

Take Lachowski for example.



What stands out in profile and makes him look so good from front view (which accounts for 80-90% of facial aesthetics, profile maybe 10-20%), is the LONG RAMUS.

You can’t create this with just CCW-r jaw surgery. CCW-r doesn’t change the front view of give a squarer jaw, a chin wing does. And I guess I’m arguing if you rotate too much CCW it can even work AGAINST YOU because you won’t be able to lengthen the ramus much at all in future surgeries.

Someone educate me about this if I’m wrong lol.

 

[Swolepenisman]

get both for best

 

[Phoenix997]

get both for best

True on first glance but I’ve seen phenomenal bi-max results that make the mandible so flat you can’t even really drop the ramus afterward.

I’m sure you can a little bit, but the new ramus length would still be probably be only HALF as long Lachowski for example.

 

[Deleted member 4671]

@reptiles thoughts?

 

[Phoenix997]

I guess what I’m trying to say, is a flat mandible with a short ramus still kinda looks stunted. Even if you lengthen the ramus a bit, there’s something off about it.. to me at least.

That aesthetic kind of reminds me of “short face syndrome“ where the mandible plane is completely flat but ramus isn’t long, and it kind of gives a “squashed look” in profile.

Important to remember that good jaw development comes from growth in all 3 dimensions of space: forward, width, and vertical length.

So if we overdo the CCW we obliterate the chance to add length to the ramus, which makes the lower third look truly ideally developed (I.e 3 dimensionally).

 

[6ft4]

my ramus is at a weird angle and my gonial angle is a mess
It looks better when I jut mandible forward but I'd need 20mm of maxillary advancement to get my maxilla forward enough to allign
Chin wing looks to produce some good results

 

[Phoenix997]

my ramus is at a weird angle and my gonial angle is a mess
It looks better when I jut mandible forward but I'd need 20mm of maxillary advancement to get my maxilla forward enough to allign
Chin wing looks to produce some good results

10 mm is max advancement for maxilla bruh