Christians GTFIH explain some arguments against it for me please

[Framemaxxx]

I used to be a Christian and I not currently but im 100% willing to get back into it and im kinda hoping to. But before that I have a questions to ask and I prefer some answers before I fully commit.

Before we start I basing these questions on the belief that as humans, we have no control of our actions, thoughts, or and other aspect of our lives. I believe everything we do has an external reasoning and causation. In that sense, why is God able to "Judge our heart/soul" if we dont really have a definite one that isnt the product of external forces.

Spoiler: terms

My terms since I understand its kinda confusing.
Pure: 100% innocent and without sin but still having the ability to sin because of free will. Innocent but not perfect.

Question 1: If God is all knowing and all loving, why were his perfectly innocent creations, Adam and Eve the ones to create the first sin. Adam and Eves entire existence was because of God mean all their ideas stem from Gods influences on them. This means Gods influence failed them and not Adam and Eve themselves. Adam and Eve were punished for disobedience in a situtation that they didnt have a full grasp of. This is like punishing a child for something that u taught them to do. Obviously God warned them against eating the apple but as a "perfect being" he should be held to higher standards and he should have known his warning wasnt going to be enough meaning that was his fault. This pretty much means he isnt a perfect being anymore right?

Question 2:Why did God create the snake and the tree? If God is the all powerful creator of everything that exists, then He also created the snake, the tree, and the snake’s access to the Garden. The snake was not an all powerful creature, and God could have completely prevented the events that followed. Moreover, all of God’s creations were made entirely pure and without sin. Sin entered the world through free will, but true free will cannot exist independently of God’s creation. In this sense, God’s influence directly affected the purity of the snake He created. Since all the original creations were pure, they could not have corrupted each other on their own. This raises a question, if God had the power to prevent corruption, why did he create circumstances in which the purity of his creatures could be compromised?

Sorry if these questions are basically the same. Also i kinda made it on the go so my ideas are pretty out of order. sorry bout that.

 

[Swarthy Knight]

Nigga bout to get bombarded with essays by (y'all know who)

 

[Framemaxxx]

@ngannou @Jason Voorhees

 

[Framemaxxx]

Nigga bout to get bombarded with essays by (y'all know who)

I dont know, who
edit: 666 posts i think its a sign)

 

[silently_said]

@PrinceLuenLeoncur

 

[Bryce]

The negromancer of Christ is riding his fearless steed towards this thread right now.

 

[Framemaxxx]

bump

 

[DoesntExistHere]

I used to be a Christian and I not currently but im 100% willing to get back into it and im kinda hoping to. But before that I have a questions to ask and I prefer some answers before I fully commit.

Before we start I basing these questions on the belief that as humans, we have no control of our actions, thoughts, or and other aspect of our lives. I believe everything we do has an external reasoning and causation. In that sense, why is God able to "Judge our heart/soul" if we dont really have a definite one that isnt the product of external forces.

Spoiler: terms

My terms since I understand its kinda confusing.
Pure: 100% innocent and without sin but still having the ability to sin because of free will. Innocent but not perfect.

Question 1: If God is all knowing and all loving, why were his perfectly innocent creations, Adam and Eve the ones to create the first sin. Adam and Eves entire existence was because of God mean all their ideas stem from Gods influences on them. This means Gods influence failed them and not Adam and Eve themselves. Adam and Eve were punished for disobedience in a situtation that they didnt have a full grasp of. This is like punishing a child for something that u taught them to do. Obviously God warned them against eating the apple but as a "perfect being" he should be held to higher standards and he should have known his warning wasnt going to be enough meaning that was his fault. This pretty much means he isnt a perfect being anymore right?

Question 2:Why did God create the snake and the tree? If God is the all powerful creator of everything that exists, then He also created the snake, the tree, and the snake’s access to the Garden. The snake was not an all powerful creature, and God could have completely prevented the events that followed. Moreover, all of God’s creations were made entirely pure and without sin. Sin entered the world through free will, but true free will cannot exist independently of God’s creation. In this sense, God’s influence directly affected the purity of the snake He created. Since all the original creations were pure, they could not have corrupted each other on their own. This raises a question, if God had the power to prevent corruption, why did he create circumstances in which the purity of his creatures could be compromised?

Sorry if these questions are basically the same. Also i kinda made it on the go so my ideas are pretty out of order. sorry bout that.

1: you may hear this all the time but yes, we were given free will, BUT Adam and Eve weren’t meant to be perfect, just like you, just like me, they struggled with temptation, saying that God couldn’t save them from sin is the same as when a christain falls into temptation knowing it’s a sin, it sucks, because we know the truth but the temptation overwhelms them

2: I’m not 100% familiar with like the origins and why the apple and the tree and snake were there but I heard that the snake was the embodiment of the enemy (Satan) btw this is just what I’ve heard this aint a strong claim I’m not 100%

And also that the apple represented something that they could or could not choose, this goes along with the free will argument, but God wanted to let them choose what they wanted, and that’s what eve chose to do

Also the first sin wasn’t in the garden of eden, it was by Satan, he had pride and thought he could rebel against God, so God let him become evil

 

[PrinceLuenLeoncur]

Nigga bout to get bombarded with essays by (y'all know who)

@PrinceLuenLeoncur

Honestly I’m not even in the mood so I just consulted GPT to do it for him I ain’t doing jack shit I haven’t even read his thread cos I just can’t be bothered but my GPT is used to answering religious questions so it’s an expert on this field if it’s on my own acc

First off, your questions aren’t stupid or repetitive at all — they’re actually very old and very serious philosophical questions. The key thing to say upfront is this: almost everything you’re arguing depends on one core assumption — that humans have no real agency and that all thoughts and actions are fully determined by external causes. Christianity does not start from that assumption, so a lot of the conclusions you draw don’t land unless that assumption is granted.

So the real debate is less “Is God unjust?” and more “Is hard determinism true?”.

About judging the heart if everything is externally caused

Classical Christianity (Catholic, Orthodox, most Protestant traditions) rejects the idea that humans are merely passive products of external forces. Instead it holds that:

• Humans are created, not self-existent
• But they are also real agents, not puppets
• God is the source of existence, not the cause of every choice in the same way gravity causes falling.

If God were the direct cause of every human thought and action, then moral language would indeed collapse — praise, blame, love, justice, repentance would all be meaningless. Christianity explicitly denies that model.

God judges the heart because the heart is genuinely yours, even though it exists within created conditions.

Question 1: Adam and Eve, innocence, and God’s “failure”

A few important clarifications:

1. Innocence ≠ ignorance or inability to choose

Adam and Eve weren’t like toddlers with no moral capacity. In Christian theology they had:

• Rational understanding
• Direct communion with God
• The ability to trust or distrust Him

What they lacked was experiential knowledge of evil, not moral comprehension. The command wasn’t arbitrary — it was fundamentally about trust.

“Will you receive goodness as a gift from God, or seize it on your own terms?”

2. “All their ideas came from God” is a category mistake

Christian theology distinguishes between:

• God as the cause of existence
• Creatures as the cause of their actions

God gives Adam existence, intellect, and freedom — but Adam is the one who uses them. Otherwise, God would be the author of sin, which Christianity explicitly rejects.

If God directly determined Adam’s choice, then:

• Adam didn’t really disobey
• God didn’t really command
• Sin never really happened

At that point, the biblical story collapses entirely.

3. The “higher standard” objection misunderstands perfection

Perfection doesn’t mean “preventing all possible failure at any cost.”

A perfect parent does not:

• Remove all risk from a child’s life
• Override their ability to choose
• Force obedience through impossibility of disobedience

That wouldn’t be love — it would be control.

The warning was sufficient because Adam and Eve were capable of trusting God. The test wasn’t about trickery; it was about whether love would be freely given.

So no — God’s foreknowledge of their fall doesn’t make Him imperfect. Foreknowing an event is not the same as causing it.


Question 2: Why create the snake and the tree at all?

This is probably the strongest version of the problem, so here’s the cleanest answer.


1. The tree is not a “trap” — it’s the condition for freedom

Without a real alternative, obedience is meaningless.

If:

• There is no option to disobey
• No meaningful boundary
• No genuine “no” available

Then freedom is an illusion.

The tree represents a limit that says:

“You are not God. You receive being and goodness; you do not define it.”

That boundary is actually what makes love possible.


2. The serpent is not a rival god

In Christian theology (especially ancient Jewish and early Christian thought), the serpent represents a created spiritual being who freely rebelled — not something God “programmed” to be evil.

God creating beings capable of rebellion is not the same as God creating rebellion.

Again, the alternative would be:

• A universe of morally inert creatures
• No love, no trust, no virtue — only automation

3. “Why allow purity to be compromised?”

Because unloseable purity is not virtue.

Virtue only exists where:

• Trust can be broken
• Love can be refused
• Loyalty can be tested

A world where corruption is impossible is also a world where goodness is meaningless.

Christianity claims that God judged this worth the cost — and then took responsibility for that cost Himself through the Incarnation and the Cross. That part often gets left out of the objection.


The real fork in the road

So it comes down to this:

• If hard determinism is true, then not only Christianity but all moral reasoning collapses
• If real agency exists, then God judging, testing, and allowing risk makes sense

Christianity bets everything on the second option — and claims that a world with real freedom, even with the fall, is better than a world of perfect but empty control.

 

[Deleted member 283745]

I used to be a Christian and I not currently but im 100% willing to get back into it and im kinda hoping to. But before that I have a questions to ask and I prefer some answers before I fully commit.

Before we start I basing these questions on the belief that as humans, we have no control of our actions, thoughts, or and other aspect of our lives. I believe everything we do has an external reasoning and causation. In that sense, why is God able to "Judge our heart/soul" if we dont really have a definite one that isnt the product of external forces.

Spoiler: terms

My terms since I understand its kinda confusing.
Pure: 100% innocent and without sin but still having the ability to sin because of free will. Innocent but not perfect.

Question 1: If God is all knowing and all loving, why were his perfectly innocent creations, Adam and Eve the ones to create the first sin. Adam and Eves entire existence was because of God mean all their ideas stem from Gods influences on them. This means Gods influence failed them and not Adam and Eve themselves. Adam and Eve were punished for disobedience in a situtation that they didnt have a full grasp of. This is like punishing a child for something that u taught them to do. Obviously God warned them against eating the apple but as a "perfect being" he should be held to higher standards and he should have known his warning wasnt going to be enough meaning that was his fault. This pretty much means he isnt a perfect being anymore right?

Question 2:Why did God create the snake and the tree? If God is the all powerful creator of everything that exists, then He also created the snake, the tree, and the snake’s access to the Garden. The snake was not an all powerful creature, and God could have completely prevented the events that followed. Moreover, all of God’s creations were made entirely pure and without sin. Sin entered the world through free will, but true free will cannot exist independently of God’s creation. In this sense, God’s influence directly affected the purity of the snake He created. Since all the original creations were pure, they could not have corrupted each other on their own. This raises a question, if God had the power to prevent corruption, why did he create circumstances in which the purity of his creatures could be compromised?

Sorry if these questions are basically the same. Also i kinda made it on the go so my ideas are pretty out of order. sorry bout that.

For the first one
God did not cause sin but created free rational creatures and freedom necessarily includes the genuine ability to choose against God, so the fault lies in the will of adam and eve rather than in divine influence.
Their knowledge was sufficient for moral responsibility, since they clearly understood God’s command and its authority, even if they did not comprehend every consequence of disobedience.
God’s foreknowledge does not imply causation and His perfection is shown not by coercing obedience but by respecting freedom while bringing a greater good out of humanity’s fall.

For question 2 God created the tree as a real condition for freedom because love that cannot be refused is not love but necessity, and He permitted the serpent’s presence not as the author of evil but as the one who allows creatures to exercise their will within a moral order.The serpent’s corruption was not caused by God but by the misuse of angelic freedom(traditionally identified with Satan) since purity does not eliminate the capacity to choose against the good.God’s power is not diminished by permitting the possibility of sin, for His perfection is shown in allowing authentic freedom and then sovereignly bringing a greater redemptive good from what creatures freely distort.