Crucial Downgrowth Factor nobody talks about

[greycel]

Everybody talks about downgrowth, but there's this one factor nobody talks about. They compare everybody's rates of downgrowth using the same base

Like this person for example:

She would be called downgrown, but she doesn't have a crooked nose + she has nasal base projection and oclussal angle is relatively flat.

Compared to somebody like this:

Who intuitively you can tell was deserve-worthy of more forward growth. She exhibits a higher frequency of indicators of downgrowth of higher severity.
They both might have the same direction of growth, but I don't know what this is, maybe the term for it is "how downgrown you are relative to your individual base", not "how downgrown you are"

Depoot is another person who gets called downgrown:

But I don't think he is. I think he reached very close to his maximum
It's funny because there's a polar opposite opinion about him. People either call him very downgrown or they comment on his exceptional craniofacial development.

Any input is appreciated

 

[slayy]

elias is not downgrown at all he just has high gonial angle/short ramus

 

[axttt_]

elias is not downgrown at all he just has high gonial angle/short ramus

high gonial angle caused by downgrowth of the mandible

 

[greycel]

elias is not downgrown at all he just has high gonial angle/short ramus

He's another person who often gets called downgrown

 

[zemult]

Downward growth mogs

 

[greycel]

high gonial angle caused by downgrowth of the mandible

But that's exactly what I'm saying man
That word "downgrowth" there. You can't limit it to being due to environmental cause like the second girl I posted

Lots of people were meant to grow up to that point. They've reached their genetic base

 

[greycel]

Downward growth mogs

For men being slightly downgrown is ideal

 

[axttt_]

But that's exactly what I'm saying man
That word "downgrowth" there. You can't limit it to being due to environmental cause like the second girl I posted

Lots of people were meant to grow up to that point. They've reached their genetic base

so essentially you're saying his face has developed forward the way it should've but due to his genetic base his mandible was always meant to appear 'downgrown'
I suppose you'd be right considering from the midface up his craniofacial development is all giga chad tier

 

[Bryce]

People trying to nitpick on de Poot is hilarious to me, he mogs just about every single human on earth

 

[greycel]

so essentially you're saying his face has developed forward the way it should've but due to his genetic base his mandible was always meant to appear 'downgrown'
I suppose you'd be right considering from the midface up his craniofacial development is all giga chad tier

Yes to the first sentence, and the last part is exactly what I've been talking about for a few months, and very good spot man

I've noticed the biggest indicator for "true downgrowth" is a crooked nose + negative orbital vector
Or rather if you have a very positive, it's unlikely you are downgrown (what Depoot has):

 

[axttt_]

Yes to the first sentence, and the last part is exactly what I've been talking about for a few months, and very good spot man

I've noticed the biggest indicator for "true downgrowth" is a crooked nose + negative orbital vector
Or rather if you have a very positive, it's unlikely you are downgrown (what Depoot has):
View attachment 3894340

wouldn't you say the very vast majority of the population is downgrown in that case
I quite rarely see projected infras irl and most people have a negative OV although i do live in the uk where the craniofacial development on average is just super super dogshit
Or is could be a case of they arent downgrown but instead their OV was always meant be negative and look 'recessed' similar to de poots mandible?

 

[Xangsane is SHIT]

De poot is downgrown though, all of these people are downgrown. You can be downgrown and GL, and you can be downgrown and ugly. You can't reduce looks/craniofacial development down to one trait.

 

[greycel]

wouldn't you say the very vast majority of the population is downgrown in that case
I quite rarely see projected infras irl and most people have a negative OV although i do live in the uk where the craniofacial development on average is just super super dogshit
Or is could be a case of they arent downgrown but instead their OV was always meant be negative and look 'recessed' similar to de poots mandible?

Yes in the UK lots of people are recessed, I've seen it myself. In fact I would say it's the most recessed place in the world. I've noticed a massive difference between UK and USA. In USA, lots of the normies there have projected infras. Look at Clav for example

As for your second point, of course there's the factor of genes for respective phenos resulting in some people having a higher genetic base (more projected infras)... but also as a whole, I believe pretty much all humans have evolved to have the infra bone be positive (or at the very least not negative). This is why the UK surprises me the most, a lot of people there are recessed
I remember seeing your picture in DMs, and you had a good positive orbital vector. You were one of the few lucky ones that managed to escape having a bad environment

 

[greycel]

De poot is downgrown though, all of these people are downgrown. You can be downgrown and GL, and you can be downgrown and ugly. You can't reduce looks/craniofacial development down to one trait.

Okay call his direction of growth as being "downgrowth", but make the important distinction that he fulfilled his genetic ceiling
He wasn't inhibited at all by environment

That's what makes it different to the other type of downgrowth

 

[Saint Casanova]

Yes in the UK lots of people are recessed, I've seen it myself. In fact I would say it's the most recessed place in the world. I've noticed a massive difference between UK and USA. In USA, lots of the normies there have projected infras. Look at Clav for example

As for your second point, of course there's the factor of genes for respective phenos resulting in some people having a higher genetic base (more projected infras)... but also as a whole, I believe pretty much all humans have evolved to have the infra bone be positive (or at the very least not negative). This is why the UK surprises me the most, a lot of people there are recessed
I remember seeing your picture in DMs, and you had a good positive orbital vector. You were one of the few lucky ones that managed to escape having a bad environment

Clav’s infras aren’t projected. They are flat, not really recessed. He uses makeup to fraud under eyes. Look at his before

 

[axttt_]

Yes in the UK lots of people are recessed, I've seen it myself. In fact I would say it's the most recessed place in the world. I've noticed a massive difference between UK and USA. In USA, lots of the normies there have projected infras. Look at Clav for example

As for your second point, of course there's the factor of genes for respective phenos resulting in some people having a higher genetic base (more projected infras)... but also as a whole, I believe pretty much all humans have evolved to have the infra bone be positive (or at the very least not negative). This is why the UK surprises me the most, a lot of people there are recessed
I remember seeing your picture in DMs, and you had a good positive orbital vector. You were one of the few lucky ones that managed to escape having a bad environment

despite you saying my infras are projected and you also mentioned i had great under eye fat pads i still have slight sclera show and so does de poot have very little scelera show do you know why this
Nzb had told me its because of my canthal tilt because he also said my infras have 0 recession although de poot has a very well supported lateral canthus but still has some very slight sclera show
Although ill add my scelera show is very minimal id say even less than de poot in the first picture by a tad

 

[greycel]

despite you saying my infras are projected and you also mentioned i had great under eye fat pads i still have slight sclera show and so does de poot have very little scelera show do you know why this
Nzb had told me its because of my canthal tilt because he also said my infras have 0 recession although de poot has a very well supported lateral canthus but still has some very slight sclera show
Although ill add my scelera show is very minimal id say even less than de poot in the first picture by a tad

I'm not sure myself. I know fixing support for the eye through fat grafting helps reduce it, but you already have good fat pads. You also have good saggital projection of the infras, so that's ruled out.
Now you're left with the shape of the infra + the vertical height of it.
@Allornothing had mentioned before it was to do with the shape of the infra bone, but I recall @NZb6Air not entirely agreeing with that. I don't exactly know

Clav’s infras aren’t projected. They are flat, not really recessed. He uses makeup to fraud under eyes. Look at his before

I take Lachowski to be true neutral:

Clav's bone projection relative to the globe seems better than Lachowski's

 

[svarddre]

If I didn’t have downgrowth I would 100% have short face syndrome

 

[Saint Casanova]

I'm not sure myself. I know fixing support for the eye through fat grafting helps reduce it, but you already have good fat pads. You also have good saggital projection of the infras, so that's ruled out.
Now you're left with the shape of the infra + the vertical height of it.
@Allornothing had mentioned before it was to do with the shape of the infra bone, but I recall @NZb6Air not entirely agreeing with that. I don't exactly know


I take Lachowski to be true neutral:
View attachment 3894400

Clav's bone projection relative to the globe seems better than Lachowski's

But Clav’s looks the same as his in terms of orbitals ?

Also what happened to the user allornothing ?

 

[Xangsane is SHIT]

Okay call his direction of growth as being "downgrowth", but make the important distinction that he fulfilled his genetic ceiling
He wasn't inhibited at all by environment

That's what makes it different to the other type of downgrowth

Do you have any proof of this though? Elias' environment, parents genetics, and mother's nutrition/hormones during gestation were likely far from ideal. You can certainly intuit from his appearance that he had higher prenatal test than most people, but I think that's about it, and it's very speculative. The most quantifiable thing would probably be dental arch, ie whether or not he needed orthodontics and if his wisdom teeth erupted properly, but even then, that's still very speculative.

I agree that he has good development despite him and his family likely consuming goyslop, staying indoors, etc. but that does not mean that his bone growth and all that is optimal despite his environment.

 

[symphony]

Just Having a genetically long face/skull often creates this appearance from the side. Especially for men who naturally develop significantly longer faces than women. The thing to note however is that the term downgrowth usually coincides with clockwise rotation of the jaw in development, with visible recession in the chin as a result. this downgrowth is mostly in the alveolar process and mandible ( take gummy smiles, if the clockwise rotation occured in the midface, the lips and teeth would coincide). And this is also why you can be downgrown while still having a compact face.

Tldr. A profile like de poots from the side doesn't mean downgrowth and he isn't downgrown. That's just genes. He'd have other indicators if he really was.

 

[axttt_]

I'm not sure myself. I know fixing support for the eye through fat grafting helps reduce it, but you already have good fat pads. You also have good saggital projection of the infras, so that's ruled out.
Now you're left with the shape of the infra + the vertical height of it.
@Allornothing had mentioned before it was to do with the shape of the infra bone, but I recall @NZb6Air not entirely agreeing with that. I don't exactly know


I take Lachowski to be true neutral:
View attachment 3894400

Clav's bone projection relative to the globe seems better than Lachowski's

so tldr its fucking over

 

[greycel]

But Clav’s looks the same as his in terms of orbitals ?

Also what happened to the user allornothing ?

Have seen only a few pics of his sides, looks better than Lachowski.. but if you do ever find a true side send me it

Allornothing went AWOL. No clue, was one of the most knowledgeable users

Do you have any proof of this though? Elias' environment, parents genetics, and mother's nutrition/hormones during gestation were likely far from ideal. You can certainly intuit from his appearance that he had higher prenatal test than most people, but I think that's about it, and it's very speculative. The most quantifiable thing would probably be dental arch, ie whether or not he needed orthodontics and if his wisdom teeth erupted properly, but even then, that's still very speculative.

I agree that he has good development despite him and his family likely consuming goyslop, staying indoors, etc. but that does not mean that his bone growth and all that is optimal despite his environment.

Of course it's hard to find out everything about another person's life. And then the even harder part would be quantifying how much of an effect every factor had towards what could've been

Just Having a genetically long face/skull often creates this appearance from the side. Especially for men who naturally develop significantly longer faces than women. The thing to note however is that the term downgrowth usually coincides with clockwise rotation of the jaw in development, with visible recession in the chin as a result. this downgrowth is mostly in the alveolar process and mandible ( take gummy smiles, if the clockwise rotation occured in the midface, the lips and teeth would coincide). And this is also why you can be downgrown while still having a compact face.

Tldr. A profile like de poots from the side doesn't mean downgrowth and he isn't downgrown. That's just genes. He'd have other indicators if he really was.

Well put. Agreed with everything, thanks for the response

 

[greycel]

so tldr its fucking over

Not over
Sclera show isn't really an issue unless extreme
It only really becomes an issue if you have lower eyelid exposure, then you have that "creep" look

Also don't limit yourself to your human body and genes. Our souls are renting a body and an individual (our brain) for 100 years
We're playing rent-a-body

 

[Xangsane is SHIT]

Of course it's hard to find out everything about another person's life. And then the even harder part would be quantifying how much of an effect every factor had towards what could've been

So then can you really say that de poot isn't downgrown? There's no way to say that his ramus height and gonial angle would remain the same had he grown up in a more optimal environment.

 

[pfl]

Check pms bro

 

[greycel]

So then can you really say that de poot isn't downgrown? There's no way to say that his ramus height and gonial angle would remain the same had he grown up in a more optimal environment.

You wouldn't be able to draw any conclusions about anything if you needed to perfectly find everything involved

And not knowing for sure =/= disproving

Stuff like this involves intuition and ability to recognise patterns (similarities and differences between this skull and others you've seen.. similar to eye for aesthetics)

 

[axttt_]

Not over
Sclera show isn't really an issue unless extreme
It only really becomes an issue if you have lower eyelid exposure, then you have that "creep" look

Also don't limit yourself to your human body and genes. Our souls are renting a body and an individual (our brain) for 100 years
We're playing rent-a-body

I'd say my LEE is quite minimal

 

[greycel]

Bump

 

[thecel]

But that's exactly what I'm saying man
That word "downgrowth" there. You can't limit it to being due to environmental cause like the second girl I posted

Lots of people were meant to grow up to that point. They've reached their genetic base

I call genetically long faces downgrown because that literally is how they grew: downward.

 

[esoterik]

well yeah, you can intuitively tell she is, but shes also starring in the sky, if they are presented at the same angle shes just going to be more downgrown

 

[greycel]

I call genetically long faces downgrown because that literally is how they grew: downward.

It’s different to the downgrowth from recession/orthodontics/etc
People group them as one, and that ends up with people saying Bale or DePoot never reached close to their genetic max (were inhibited by environment)

 

[greycel]

well yeah, you can intuitively tell she is, but shes also starring in the sky, if they are presented at the same angle shes just going to be more downgrown

It’s besides the point, I’m sure you know, but there exist women who’s features have less of a downgrown growth pattern than the first girl but were affected much more by recession (downgrowth from environment from their ceiling)
Reverse would exist too

 

[thecel]

View attachment 3894324

He's another person who often gets called downgrown

fixed his downgrowth

 

[greycel]

View attachment 3897767

fixed his downgrowth

Very good morph

 

[Joaquin]

The thing is that depoot upper maxilla is perfectly rotated and it isnt long, but his mandible is downgrown but just because of genetics. A truly downgrowth ñerson would have his maxilla badly rotated too