damon braces > invisalign > normal braces

[themanwhoslays]

I've been researching non-stop as i'm looking to fix my diestema.

Basically, out of all the ortho procedures you can get to fix teeth(excluding MSE, palate expander), damon beats them all.

Damon Braces push teeth from both side, is faster, more comfortable, improve dental arch( unlike invisalign which only sometimes does it) and shifts jaw forward. It is undoubtly the best type of braces you can get.

Also, the orthodontist who do these are usually blackpilled, and they improve overall harmony and aesthetics.


Can't go wrong with Damon, this is not an ad, cya boys in 8 months, i will post an update on how my teeth looked before & after

Self-ligating daemon braces quote: "These braces can expand dental arches to make room for all teeth in a crowded arch to stand upright by pushing bicuspids and molars outwards"

 

[themanwhoslays]

also, invisalign gives an lisp, and can prevent mewing.

 

[themanwhoslays]

damon braces encourage nose breathing and mewing, and you can do both

 

[themanwhoslays]

also, invisalign is twice the price and it can fail you as it is usually done online, not in person by an orthodontist who can see failos and fix them

 

[advancevision]

invisalign gives an lisp, and can prevent mewing.

I was looking into getting invisalign lately but this might change my mind. Any reason why invisalign does this?

 

[Silver]

The Damon system is great for dental expansion of the arches but nothing beats true skeletal expansion of the maxilla if you need it.

 

[BugeyeBigNoseCurry]

I've been researching non-stop as i'm looking to fix my diestema.

Basically, out of all the ortho procedures you can get to fix teeth(excluding MSE, palate expander), damon beats them all.

Damon Braces push teeth from both side, is faster, more comfortable, improve dental arch( unlike invisalign which only sometimes does it) and shifts jaw forward. It is undoubtly the best type of braces you can get.

Also, the orthodontist who do these are usually blackpilled, and they improve overall harmony and aesthetics.


Can't go wrong with Damon, this is not an ad, cya boys in 8 months, i will post an update on how my teeth looked before & after

normal in your case

 

[ascension!]

The Damon system is great for dental expansion of the arches but nothing beats true skeletal expansion of the maxilla if you need it.

What is the advantage of expanding the maxilla? Could cause a CCWr?

 

[Silver]

What is the advantage of expanding the maxilla? Could cause a CCWr?

More tongue space, elimination of lateral occlusal problems and better aesthetics with a wider smile and more lip support.

Permanently ignored for asking about CCWr, I already explained it to you previously in another thread with an illustration as to why CCWr can't be achieved. You orthotropics copers are so fucking dumb it's mind-boggling.

 

[Deleted member 19620]

The Damon system is great for dental expansion of the arches but nothing beats true skeletal expansion of the maxilla if you need it.

Exaggerated.
I have seen before and after of MSE. The only real benefits are improved breathing and likely to end up with 10+ teeth smile.
Facial changes are none or simply insignificant.

 

[Deleted member 19620]

Depends on your orthodontist.
Your ortho arguably has more control on your teeth with Invisalign (better for end result).

Damon braces is quicker then Invisalign though, it’s usually recommended for complex cases where Invisalign can’t begin and some of the teeth need major rotations.

 

[Silver]

Exaggerated.
I have seen before and after of MSE. The only real benefits are improved breathing and likely to end up with 10+ teeth smile.
Facial changes are none or simply insignificant.

I have not once mentioned maxillary changes = great facial changes. Infact I have not mentioned any soft-tissue changes in my comment. What are you talking about? If you need your palate expanded laterally for more tongue space or to fix a occlusal problem then maxillary expansion should be prioritized over having it expanded with braces. I'm speaking about FUNCTIONALITY not AESTHETICS.

 

[ascension!]

Depends on your orthodontist.
Your ortho arguably has more control on your teeth with Invisalign (better for end result).

Damon braces is quicker then Invisalign though, it’s usually recommended for complex cases where Invisalign can’t begin and some of the teeth need major rotations.

Do you recommend that I get Damon Braces over INVISALIGN or is it a question of whether I am eligible to receive either treatment?

Currently, I am also looking to expand my dental arch (my palate is already wide enough for my tongue to fit, plus I show +8 teeth when I smile, but I need to fix my malocclusion and expand my dental arch to show even more). I have a cross-bite, btw.

 

[ascension!]

Do you recommend that I get Damon Braces over INVISALIGN or is it a question of whether I am eligible to receive either treatment?

Currently, I am also looking to expand my dental arch (my palate is already wide enough for my tongue to fit, plus I show +8 teeth when I smile, but I need to fix my malocclusion and expand my dental arch to show even more). I have a cross-bite, btw.

I am interested in either one of them AESTHETICALLY speaking, as both are believed to shift/pull/move the jaw FORWARD (which is something I am currently looking for), as well as address a narrow mouth and provide more even/full-lips.

I read a case of INVISALIGN treatment that in addition to having provided all these changes, also expanded the palate of said patient (not only the dental arch), I have to find it again, in the same way, I think a user had uploaded it here to the forum.

 

[Deleted member 19064]

More tongue space, elimination of lateral occlusal problems and better aesthetics with a wider smile and more lip support.

Permanently ignored for asking about CCWr, I already explained it to you previously in another thread with an illustration as to why CCWr can't be achieved. You orthotropics copers are so fucking dumb it's mind-boggling.

MSE can achieve it

 

[Deleted member 19064]

I am interested in either one of them AESTHETICALLY speaking, as both are believed to shift/pull/move the jaw FORWARD (which is something I am currently looking for), as well as address a narrow mouth and provide more even/full-lips.

I read a case of INVISALIGN treatment that in addition to having provided all these changes, also expanded the palate of said patient (not only the dental arch), I have to find it again, in the same way, I think a user had uploaded it here to the forum.

They dont shift the jaw forward, the just move teeth through existing jaw bone.

 

[Silver]

MSE can achieve it

If you're refering to CCWr then that's a common myth. The myth is that MSE in conjunction with any protraction device such as the facemask or headgear can achieve CCWr. Firstly you'll need to disjunct the pterygomaxillary sutures which MSE by itself rarely achieves. If you successfully disjunct these sutures at the back of the maxilla then you can achieve advancement of the A-point of the maxilla. The advancement won't be greater than 3mm, this needs to be understood. The advancement of the A-point will be linear or if any rotation occurs it'll be in a clockwise direction, NOT counterclockwise.

"Why can't the rotation be in a counterclockwise direction?"
Because there's bonymass above which is ossified and won't allow for rotation in this direction. Clockwise rotation occurs because the mandible can autorotate through the condyle to allow for rotation in this direction.

Please understand this, I've explained it far too many times but you guys read one article or watch one video and immediately buy what they say.

 

[Deleted member 19064]

If you're refering to CCWr then that's a common myth. The myth is that MSE in conjunction with any protraction device such as the facemask or headgear can achieve CCWr. Firstly you'll need to disjunct the pterygomaxillary sutures which MSE by itself rarely achieves. If you successfully disjunct these sutures at the back of the maxilla then you can achieve advancement of the A-point of the maxilla. The advancement won't be greater than 3mm, this needs to be understood. The advancement of the A-point will be linear or if any rotation occurs it'll be in a clockwise direction, NOT counterclockwise.

"Why can't the rotation be in a counterclockwise direction?"
Because there's bonymass above which is ossified and won't allow for rotation in this direction. Clockwise rotation occurs because the mandible can autorotate through the condyle to allow for rotation in this direction.

Please understand this, I've explained it far too many times but you guys read one article or watch one video and immediately buy what they say.

Growth at the infero-posterior maxillary sutures causes the maxilla to grow down and forward which translates to the face moving in a vector which mew describes as up and forward. Those sutures are literally what the Mse disrupts the most. CCW rotation is very possible, and 3mm is definitely not the max as I got 5mm as a 26 year old and I barely put any effort in.

 

[Deleted member 22126]

Exaggerated.
I have seen before and after of MSE. The only real benefits are improved breathing and likely to end up with 10+ teeth smile.
Facial changes are none or simply insignificant.

10th teeth smile is a mogger trait and worth getting mse for

 

[Silver]

Growth at the infero-posterior maxillary sutures causes the maxilla to grow down and forward which translates to the face moving in a vector which mew describes as up and forward. Those sutures are literally what the Mse disrupts the most. CCW rotation is very possible, and 3mm is definitely not the max as I got 5mm as a 26 year old and I barely put any effort in.

Posterior maxillary excess causes an anterior open bite, I don't know how this is relevant in regards to what we're discussing. Since you're quoting Dr. Mew you should realise that he's talking about natural growth of the skull and how it can be guided forward, you can't generate new growth. You can only direct the natural growth in a forward direction instead of it growing downwards which happens when you mouth breath. This all becomes useless past ages of >16, even earlier tbh for substantial changes.

The MSE does not disrupt the pterygomaxillary sutures "the most" as you make it out to be. Even when the MSE is placed more posteriorly in the palate with the goal to disrupt the pterygomaxillary sutures it fails to do so. This is why the counterpart EASE which consists of a stronger expansion device with better anchorage involves scoring/removing parts of the pterygomaxillary to weaken it endoscopically.

CCWr is impossible, get it through your thick skull. You are an orthotropics coper, I don't even know why you cope with it since you're 26 as you yourself stated.

You did not get 5mm of A-point advancement. Every single publication I've read has it capped at 3mm at most and this is in kids with the mean age of like 11-13. You as 2X, even 2.5X their age apparently got 5mm of A-point advancement when the maxilla is fully ossified. Yeah sure

 

[Deleted member 19064]

Posterior maxillary excess causes an anterior open bite, I don't know how this is relevant in regards to what we're discussing. Since you're quoting Dr. Mew you should realise that he's talking about natural growth of the skull and how it can be guided forward, you can't generate new growth. You can only direct the natural growth in a forward direction instead of it growing downwards which happens when you mouth breath. This all becomes useless past ages of >16, even earlier tbh for substantial changes.

The MSE does not disrupt the pterygomaxillary sutures "the most" as you make it out to be. Even when the MSE is placed more posteriorly in the palate with the goal to disrupt the pterygomaxillary sutures it fails to do so. This is why the counterpart EASE which consists of a stronger expansion device with better anchorage involves scoring/removing parts of the pterygomaxillary to weaken it endoscopically.

CCWr is impossible, get it through your thick skull. You are an orthotropics coper, I don't even know why you cope with it since you're 26 as you yourself stated.

You did not get 5mm of A-point advancement. Every single publication I've read has it capped at 3mm at most and this is in kids with the mean age of like 11-13. You as 2X, even 2.5X their age apparently got 5mm of A-point advancement when the maxilla is fully ossified. Yeah sure

I'm quoting mew because when he says up and forward he really means down and forward because of the way the maxillary sutures are oriented. Which is something not a lot of people understand and is the reasons the face mask must be pulled at negative vectors. You are the one coping with ease which gives virtually no midface gains. You dont know what you're talking about. You never had the device in your mouth and you never talked to an Ortho who uses it on a day to day basis. It's clear. You think you know everything from reading studies on the Mse Facebook group. I personally know multiple people who have exceeded 3mm of protraction. Christ, some of them are on Reddit go have yourself a look. When the Mse is posteriorly placed it has an extreme effect on the posterior inferior sutures. JFL don't @ me

 

[Silver]

I'm quoting mew because when he says up and forward he really means down and forward because of the way the maxillary sutures are oriented. Which is something not a lot of people understand and is the reasons the face mask must be pulled at negative vectors. You are the one coping with ease which gives virtually no midface gains. You dont know what you're talking about. You never had the device in your mouth and you never talked to an Ortho who uses it on a day to day basis. It's clear. You think you know everything from reading studies on the Mse Facebook group. I personally know multiple people who have exceeded 3mm of protraction. Christ, some of them are on Reddit go have yourself a look. When the Mse is posteriorly placed it has an extreme effect on the posterior inferior sutures. JFL don't @ me

Why should I look for the claims you're making on external sites? Instead link me them to prove your point.

EASE and MSE are the exact same thing, one is just surgically assisted with a full maxillary midline split and scoring/removing parts of the pterygomaxillary sutures. There's midface gains in EASE because the maxilla still remains intact with the zygomatic process. If any gains should come, they'll be more and better with EASE because it's set up better for fulfilling its goal.

MSE fails to expand skeletally a lot of the time, don't spread misinformation by basically making outrageous claims that makes the MSE out to be a guarantee of skeletal expansion which it isn't.

Even if you move the maxilla down along negative vectors, specifically posterior maxilla, this'll just cause posterior maxillary excess which translates into an ANTERIOR OPEN BITE. No orthodontist, not even the one you claim to have worked with will willingly cause their patient a SKELETAL malocclusion. Just say you're retarded without saying you're retarded.

 

[Deleted member 19064]

I am not shilling for MSE, I actually don't recommend it due to my experience of TOO MUCH skeletal expansion relative to dental expansion. But you are retarded and disrespectful so I'm not going to carry on with this conversation after this message.

People misunderstand what “forward and up” i.e true proper development means in *relation* to the entire skull because Mike Mew is a bit of a retard and bad at explaining how any of this works in adults - and he may not totally understand it himself.

From the neonatal stage to childhood to adulthood your maxilla is constantly growing down and forward. This is how it grows and the only way it grows due to the orientation of the sutures. The nuance that creates good vs. bad facial development is in the proportion of growth which occurs in the upper ‘superior’ maxillary sutures vs lower ‘inferior’ sutures, as well as the growth of other cranial/skeletal structures such as the cranial base.

Eventually downward and forwards growth of the maxilla at the *inferior sutures* (ie where MSE is the most effective for disarticulation) becomes forward growth due to CCW rotation of the entire maxillary complex. Any ossified bone in the upper skull forms as a fulcrum which the expansion and protraction movement rotates around.

You are reaching with your claims that mirroring this natural process will cause vertical maxillary excess. You clearly don't understand what I am talking about.

 

[ChristianChad]

Exaggerated.
I have seen before and after of MSE. The only real benefits are improved breathing and likely to end up with 10+ teeth smile.
Facial changes are none or simply insignificant.

Because MSE is bad for males after 15. The device isn't designed well enough

The cases of increased Bizygo width, IPD etc. are all below 13 or in females. Don't expect anything to happen reliably in males above 15, and even if it does expect assymtries. Theres a lot of things wrong with MSE treatment... You mention improved breathing and more teeth show, that's far from guaranteed aswell, the device does not even successfully split the sutures at times even with Surgical Assist. And sometimes it does succeeded but no breathing benefits and not as much smile width increase as in SARPE, etc.

 

[AscendingHero]

Because there's bonymass above which is ossified and won't allow for rotation in this direction. Clockwise rotation occurs because the mandible can autorotate through the condyle to allow for rotation in this direction.

So the only thing that can cause CCW is either via diplacement methods (ccw lefort, n2 implant) or "auto rotation" of the mandible?

What is "auto rotation" of the mandible btw?

Condylar growth induces maxillary ccw right?

 

[Silver]

So the only thing that can cause CCW is either via diplacement methods (ccw lefort, n2 implant) or "auto rotation" of the mandible?

What is "auto rotation" of the mandible btw?

Condylar growth induces maxillary ccw right?
View attachment 1958885

Auto rotation of the mandible occurs as a result of the maxilla being repositioned superiorly (impaction) or inferiorly (downgrafting). This allows for the mandible to rotate around the condyle in either a clockwise or counterclockwise direction. Autorotation can cause anteroposterior discrepancies, and depending on the severity it may require "correction".

 

[GodBody]

Had traditional bracers when I was a teen and hated every moment.
They where consistently uncomfortable, damn near had to rip flesh out the mouth before they settled in.
Can't eat or drink anything. And those fucking RUBBER BANDS!
Had them removed after a year and still saw 0 results.

I've always know of Invisalign. Now there is -- Damon.
The advantages of Damon braces is that results are faster. Great, want that more than anything.
This more comfortable/livable than traditional braces ?

 

[AscendingHero]

Auto rotation of the mandible occurs as a result of the maxilla being repositioned superiorly (impaction) or inferiorly (downgrafting). This allows for the mandible to rotate around the condyle in either a clockwise or counterclockwise direction. Autorotation can cause anteroposterior discrepancies, and depending on the severity it may require "correction".

In ideal growth/chad development, how does the mandible auto rotate?

 

[Silver]

In ideal growth/chad development, how does the mandible auto rotate?

Really no way to answer this question. The mandible follows the growth pattern of the maxilla. Nothing else to it. Dental maloclussions if not treated in time can affect the growth pattern of the jaws.

 

[AscendingHero]

Really no way to answer this question. The mandible follows the growth pattern of the maxilla. Nothing else to it. Dental maloclussions if not treated in time can affect the growth pattern of the jaws.

Damn, what would be the best way to go about treating a class 2 maloclussion?

Also what causes the chin to project more than seen in other profiles? besides bones of course, like what's the role of the teeth?

 

[Silver]

Damn, what would be the best way to go about treating a class 2 maloclussion?

Also what causes the chin to project more than seen in other profiles? besides bones of course, like what's the role of the teeth?

Surgically is the best because you are manually controlling the outcome and can "fine-tune" the final result to your likening. Obviously you can't perform CCW on every single patient so there are limiting factors. But osteotomies are the best way to correct a skeletal malocclusion.

No idea about the chinbone, not aware of anything that controls its growth.

If there's a dental malocclusion present it could lead to excess growth of either the maxilla or mandible or both in their attempt to try and compensate for this discrepancy. Mostly talking of vertical growth here.

 

[ascension!]

Surgically is the best because you are manually controlling the outcome and can "fine-tune" the final result to your likening. Obviously you can't perform CCW on every single patient so there are limiting factors. But osteotomies are the best way to correct a skeletal malocclusion.

No idea about the chinbone, not aware of anything that controls its growth.

If there's a dental malocclusion present it could lead to excess growth of either the maxilla or mandible or both in their attempt to try and compensate for this discrepancy. Mostly talking of vertical growth here.

@Silver

Can you unignore me? please

 

[ascension!]

The Damon system is great for dental expansion of the arches but nothing beats true skeletal expansion of the maxilla if you need it.

Could the Damon system be beneficial for patients who already have a wide enough palate but their dental arch is a bit narrow?

This is my case currently. Face-wise speaking, I already have a good base of bone structure for puberty; wide palate, large teeth and wide jaw. But, my problem here is my maxilla, since I probably have maxillary hypoplasia and that is "why" my cross-bite (malocclusion) is mainly generated. Should the expansion of my dental arch fix this malocclusion if it is of dental origin?

What is there about my malocclusion is of skeletal origin; which is most likely since I mentioned that I probably have maxillary hypoplasia (maxilla narrower than mandible). Would I need in this case to obtain skeletal expansion? What benefits // risks should it have? Since as I previously mentioned my palate is already wide enough and doesn't need expansion.

Please contact me through PM's, please. I need your help ASAP. Thanks!

 

[tinderhacker]

@themanwhoslays

Any updates

 

[Anchor_Ship]

I’ll prob do this after bimax and white strips

 

[RAMU KAKA]

What kind of diestema do you have OP? i have this wierd gap between my canine and pre molar

 

[themanwhoslays]

@themanwhoslays

Any updates

I found a blackpilled orthodont that didn't try to overcharge me and fixed all my issues by basically putting braces on top teeth only, also slighty increasing my dental arch

 

[themanwhoslays]

did not get daemon braces, as I did not get bottom teeth braces

 

[themanwhoslays]

my teeth are almost alligned and my dental arch increased slightly, but they are now stained by Coffee drinking, which I will fix by whitening them

 

[themanwhoslays]

I’ll prob do this after bimax and white strips

Whiten after, not before

 

[Anchor_Ship]

Whiten after, not before

elab?

 

[tinderhacker]

I found a blackpilled orthodont that didn't try to overcharge me and fixed all my issues by basically putting braces on top teeth only, also slighty increasing my dental arch

Any changes to the face?

Do you have hollower cheeks now? Or how does your face look overall before the braces and now after ?

 

[themanwhoslays]

White after, not before

elab?

Braces cause yellow staining, so only whiten after you finish your allignment

 

[themanwhoslays]

Any changes to the face?

Do you have hollower cheeks now? Or how does your face look overall before the braces and now after ?

It looks better, I compared old pics and my face looks slimmer and more symetrical, but I also did a keto diet which removed a bit of baby/teen fat and that might also be the reason. Also my braces did hurt my lips/ mouth interior, but it healed. The wires get longer on the sides as the treatment progresses and might hurt you, but you can cut them with scissors or just go to the dentist to do it.

 

[themanwhoslays]

Any changes to the face?

Do you have hollower cheeks now? Or how does your face look overall before the braces and now after ?

You should just expect a minor change on face aesthetics if you do braces when you're over 18, except you know Șarpe and the such. But teeth wise, if they expand the dental arch even slightly and fix any diastema, combined with polishing and whitening after, can be a 0.75 psl increase în my opinion.

 

[gigell]

I found a blackpilled orthodont that didn't try to overcharge me and fixed all my issues by basically putting braces on top teeth only, also slighty increasing my dental arch

Country and ortho name please

 

[mogger797]

Hey, Recently I was thinking of getting both damnon braces along with and RPE palate expander. Im 17 btw do you reccommend this.

 

[bendoverer]

More tongue space, elimination of lateral occlusal problems and better aesthetics with a wider smile and more lip support.

Permanently ignored for asking about CCWr, I already explained it to you previously in another thread with an illustration as to why CCWr can't be achieved. You orthotropics copers are so fucking dumb it's mind-boggling.

Ccw rotation can be achieved if you intrude with tads as anchorage

 

[v99bv]

The Damon system is great for dental expansion of the arches but nothing beats true skeletal expansion of the maxilla if you need it.

So am I good?I have normal palate size (Intermolar-45mm Intercanine-25mm) but my teeth seem to be tipping inwards because I tongue thrusted alot as a kid causing me to get protruding central incisors and crowded bottom front teeth and I got Damon braces to fix those issues (13 yrs old if age matters)

 

[bradpittshairline]

can invisalign fix bite, dont wanna spend my 20s with braces