DOCTORS TALK ABOUT NELSON'S/RETARD'S FACEPULLER JFL! GTFIH (THEY LAUGH)

[JosephGarrot123]

i know... MSE is not made for forward growth

It's good to widen your face but not for forward growth. Bimax is the easiest way to get huge forward growth results

 

[hairyballscel]

@SoyGune invented one but the post got no reputation. It looks perfect.

link it please

 

[varbrah]

literally they say that your maxilla will come down you are not an oq you are just a wanna be faggot
you can see it in the pic

Nothing I've said contradicts anything they've said. The maxilla grows down and forward, and (non-upswing) CCW rotation of the occlusal plane occurs as a result of greater downward/forward growth at the inferior/posterior maxillary sutures.

I actually am the OG MSE pioneer jfl.

 

[goat2x]

Nothing I've said contradicts anything they've said. The maxilla grows down and forward, and (non-upswing) CCW rotation of the occlusal plane occurs as a result of greater downward/forward growth at the inferior/posterior maxillary sutures.

I actually am the OG MSE pioneer jfl.

then what the fuck are u arguing against
ive talked about the whole maxilla coming a bit down

 

[Good_Little_Goy]

then what the fuck are u arguing against
ive talked about the whole maxilla coming a bit down

he's arguing against you saying ccw rotation is debatable

 

[varbrah]

then what the fuck are u arguing against
ive talked about the whole maxilla coming a bit down

You're the one that's confused.

I originally said that CCW was possible due to MORE downward/forward growth occurring at the sutures in the back/lower maxilla as compared to the other growth locations.

If you didn't understand then you could've asked for clarification.

 

[Bromose]

jfl low iq from you strikes again
they literally say dont get mse if you want to achieve solid forward grwoth you utter fucking subhuman dog
you are a fucking degenerate mentally disabled faggot
1-3mm and they said typically 1-2mm
your tiny little peahead would break anyways you fucking curry subhuman

“ YOU CAN ONLY ADVaNCE 1-2MM WITH FUCKING MSE” LOOOL , fucking rat caught. 3 mm is achievable , typically 1-2mm doesn’t mean only that much is achievable . I’m caging at ur oblivious faggottttneee, bum Niglet. It’s over for you boyo , 80 iq shown on display bird brain stupid idot . Woof woof !

 

[hairyballscel]

When you rotate the maxilla by some x°, does that rotate the gonial angle by the same amount?

no clue tbh

 

[hairyballscel]

https://looksmax.org/threads/facepulling-appliance-update.157863/

this will pull on teeth

 

[goat2x]

You're the one that's confused.

I originally said that CCW was possible due to MORE downward/forward growth occurring at the sutures in the back/lower maxilla as compared to the other growth locations.

If you didn't understand then you could've asked for clarification.

tbh didnt read it bc faggots are attacking me left and right
then we agree good

 

[goat2x]

“ YOU CAN ONLY ADVaNCE 1-2MM WITH FUCKING MSE” LOOOL , fucking rat caught. 3 mm is achievable , typically 1-2mm doesn’t mean only that much is achievable . I’m caging at ur oblivious faggottttneee, bum Niglet. It’s over for you boyo , 80 iq shown on display bird brain stupid idot . Woof woof !

because thats what the average guy can achieve you utter fucking subhuman repulsive curry dog
did i say 3mm isnt achievable you fucking degenerate scum? NO i didnt lmao
reminder:
its not 8mm for children its 3-7mm you fucking liar dog
you cant even watch a vid and understand the information in it your down syndrome is so bad
you add 1mm to everything you fucking trash
your biggest achievement si that you havent slit ur wrists yet with this iq level

 

[varbrah]

So you got a whole 4 mm and not even 1 mm of shortening. did you measure your nose length ?

Shortening requires the anterior maxilla to remodel upwards. Remodeling of existing bones in adults is typically much more time consuming than the sutural growth induced by protracting. Also, the possible pull angles for the MSE don't exactly allow for a significant upwards vector.

My midface is the same length, but looks shorter due to a) cheekbone expansion b) nasal tip lifting due to forward growth.

 

[Luke LLL]

Forgot to mention that @nelson stated in that post that he should try to bend the wires differently — more outward from the teeth. Either the OP or @nelson in the post said that it takes a shit ton of force to make them touch the teeth. @nelson said it looks perfect other than the wires.

This guy is fear-mongering don't listen to anything he says, they never talked about my appliance in the vid

 

[orthochadic]

Shortening requires the anterior maxilla to remodel upwards. Remodeling of existing bones in adults is typically much more time consuming than the sutural growth induced by protracting. Also, the possible pull angles for the MSE don't exactly allow for a significant upwards vector.

My midface is the same length, but looks shorter due to a) cheekbone expansion b) nasal tip lifting due to forward growth.

Yeah i assume your angle of protraction was near to your occlusal plane

 

[goat2x]

What is the Facebook group

idk lol

 

[varbrah]

Yeah i assume your angle of protraction was near to your occlusal plane

Yeah, I did -10 to -30 degrees to the occlusal plane, I think? This makes the force vector about perpendicular to the maxillary sutures and should theoretically result in the most forward growth.

 

[goat2x]

Shortening requires the anterior maxilla to remodel upwards. Remodeling of existing bones in adults is typically much more time consuming than the sutural growth induced by protracting. Also, the possible pull angles for the MSE don't exactly allow for a significant upwards vector.

My midface is the same length, but looks shorter due to a) cheekbone expansion b) nasal tip lifting due to forward growth.

still good tbh
any frontzygomatic changes?

 

[varbrah]

still good tbh
any frontzygomatic changes?

Hard to say. The expansion itself pushed the cheekbones outwards which made them look stronger from the front and side and improved eye support, but I wouldn't claim any major growth or forward displacement of the zygomatic bone occurred.

 

[goat2x]

Hard to say. The expansion itself pushed the cheekbones outwards which made them look stronger from the front and side and improved eye support, but I wouldn't claim any growth or forward displacement of the zygomatic bone occurred.

yeah the studies dont show anything too
sucks tbh
no soft tissue changes either?

 

[reptiles]

I think people try facepulling cause Lefort can't do shit for ccw rotation and Maxillary compression and jaw surgery options are so limited

Is fwhr cureable bhai ?

 

[goat2x]

Is fwhr cureable bhai ?

mse lol

 

[orthochadic]

Yeah, I did -10 to -30 degrees to the occlusal plane, I think? This makes the force vector about perpendicular to the maxillary sutures and should theoretically result in the most forward growth.

Interesting.

So the thing is:

1)-first we open the maxilla using the mse screws and then stop using them once the sutures are opened.

2)-Then we protract the maxilla foward using hgh.

3)then we repeat the 1 and 2 steps untill getting enough forward growth.

4)Then we repeat the step 1.

5)then we protract the maxilla upward.

6)then we repeat step 4 and 5 untill we get enough shortening.


All of this process should work assuming that Opening the suture only takes 3 to 4 mm of expansion.

 

[reptiles]

mse lol

Surgery wise ?

 

[varbrah]

yeah the studies dont show anything too
sucks tbh
no soft tissue changes either?

Yeah, I think it's just a matter of the MSE not being strong enough to fully disarticulate structures further away from it. Zygo changes would require disrupting sutures higher up in the face.

I did have soft tissue changes. Eye bags from lack of support diminished considerably and overall my soft tissue drapes a lot better, with even hollowness below my zygos.

 

[goat2x]

Yeah, I think it's just a matter of the MSE not being strong enough to fully disarticulate structures further away from it. Zygo changes would require disrupting suture higher up in the face.

I did have soft tissue changes. Eye bags from lack of support diminished considerably and overall my soft tissue drapes a lot better, with even hollowness below my zygos.

tbh i had marpe and i experienced more of midface expansion then cheekbones
could this be because of the uneven suture plit what do you thinl

 

[Deleted member 8486]

Yeah, I did -10 to -30 degrees to the occlusal plane, I think? This makes the force vector about perpendicular to the maxillary sutures and should theoretically result in the most forward growth.

What? How would a negative degree vector be good? It would just pull the maxilla downward and make the mandible more trapped which sets it backward and downward.

 

[goat2x]

What? How would a negative degree vector be good? It would just pull the maxilla downward and make the mandible more trapped which sets it backward and downward.

it looks better
look at the before afters

 

[varbrah]

tbh i had marpe and i experienced more of midface expansion then cheekbones
could this be because of the uneven suture plit what do you thinl

MSE is more rigid and thus can produce and withstand more force than traditional MARPEs, with less bone bending. Expansion of the midface will occur in a /\-like fashion in both cases, but because of MSE's properties it's able to get expansion in the upper midface (cheekbones).

 

[varbrah]

What? How would a negative degree vector be good? It would just pull the maxilla downward and make the mandible more trapped which sets it backward and downward.

Your maxilla is ONLY able to experience sutural growth in a downward/forward direction. This is the direction the maxilla grows from conception to adulthood

EDIT: the vector and origin of force application matters here, btw. Pulling this way doesn't cause downswing.

 

[curryslayerordeath]

bc 90% of the posters itt are retards, this is whats meant by ccw rotation and positive 'downward' growth

ppl w improperly grown faces and typically high cb angles have deficiencies at the posterior maxilla and [sometimes] excess growth of the anterior maxilla. when ppl talk abt double jaw surgery and rotations, patients without gummy smiles have bone added to the back of the palate via posterior downgrafting, making the occlusal plane and hence gonial angle less steep (mandible autorotation). thats whats described in the case simulation from moons study.

i dont think theres a way to compress the anterior maxilla (significantly) w any appliance and surgeries in that realm are very limited too sadly

 

[MadTwatter]

TL: dR YOU CAN ONLY ADVaNCE 1-2MM WITH FUCKING MSE
RETARDED NON BONE FACEPULLER WONT DO SHIT ONLY GOOD FOR ASPERGERMAXXING

It depends how much force you apply.
Using the traditional facemask with elastic bands isn’t going to do shit for adults, obviously, that’s not a revelation.

BUT I’ve made a face puller that can generate enough force to pull your fucking face off. When I get MSE installed next months, I’m aiming for +6mm of maxilla advancement.

Stay tuned for a tutorial.

 

[varbrah]

bc 90% of the posters itt are retards, this is whats meant by ccw rotation and positive 'downward' growth
View attachment 627598
ppl w improperly grown faces and typically high cb angles have deficiencies at the posterior maxilla and [sometimes] excess growth of the anterior maxilla. when ppl talk abt double jaw surgery and rotations, patients without gummy smiles have bone added to the back of the palate via posterior downgrafting, making the occlusal plane and hence gonial angle less steep (mandible autorotation). thats whats described in the case simulation from moons study.

View attachment 627612

i dont think theres a way to compress the anterior maxilla (significantly) w any appliance and surgeries in that realm are very limited too sadly

ding ding ding

 

[goat2x]

bc 90% of the posters itt are retards, this is whats meant by ccw rotation and positive 'downward' growth
View attachment 627598
ppl w improperly grown faces and typically high cb angles have deficiencies at the posterior maxilla and [sometimes] excess growth of the anterior maxilla. when ppl talk abt double jaw surgery and rotations, patients without gummy smiles have bone added to the back of the palate via posterior downgrafting, making the occlusal plane and hence gonial angle less steep (mandible autorotation). thats whats described in the case simulation from moons study.

View attachment 627612

i dont think theres a way to compress the anterior maxilla (significantly) w any appliance and surgeries in that realm are very limited too sadly

if u say to me that im a retard
i read @varbrah comments again and i agree with him
i didnt fully read his comments because i got like 9 notifications second and i tought he said that full upwards rotation vcan beachievable

 

[Deleted member 8486]

Your maxilla is ONLY able to experience sutural growth in a downward/forward direction. This is the direction the maxilla grows from conception to adulthood

So you are pulling the maxilla downward for more maxillary growth? There is a reason why many use -30 degree on the occlusal plane. It is for Class III patients who require forward growth and here is a photo of a patient who had a lot of downward growth due to -30 degree protraction which did stimulate forward growth but still downward.

Increase in VDO as well
and the patient’s mandible did go backward and downward. there is no reason for the maxilla to not go upward, as the mandible will follow upward immediately after the maxilla shifted upward.

 

[curryslayerordeath]

if u say to me that im a retard
i read @varbrah comments again and i agree with him
i didnt fully read his comments because i got like 9 notifications second and i tought he said that full upwards rotation vcan beachievable

i consider ppl who use bold font 7 messages as an alternative to actual arguments retards, but ye i saw that u came around

but like 80% of the ppl commenting itt have the wrong perception of what a 'facepuller' is even supposed to do, as shown by how fucking shit all the designs are (some even place upward force towards the back jfl)

 

[varbrah]

So you are pulling downward for more maxillary growth? There is a reason why many use -30 degree on the occlusal plane. It is for Class III patients and here is a photo of a patient who had a lot of downward growth due to -30 degree protraction which did stimulate forward growth but still downward.
View attachment 627619Increase in VDO as well
and the patient’s mandible did go backward and downward. there is no reason for the maxilla to not go upward, as the mandible will follow upward immediately after it is shifted upward.

Where's the force being applied from? Pulling downward from the posterior maxilla wouldn't cause downswing of the maxilla. It's more than likely this kid had his mandible pushed back due to the reciprocal force of the headgear on his chin.

 

[goat2x]

i consider ppl who use bold font 7 messages as an alternative to actual arguments retards, but ye i saw that u came around

but like 80% of the ppl commenting itt have the wrong perception of what a 'facepuller' is even supposed to do, as shown by how fucking shit all the designs are (some even place upward force towards the back jfl)

I use big texts for roasts not for arguements lol
Tbh its not even worth it exposing to these idiots they just attack me left and right

 

[Deleted member 8486]

Where's the force being applied from? Pulling downward from the posterior maxilla wouldn't cause downswing. It's more than likely this kid had his mandible pushed back due to the reciprocal force of the headgear on his chin.

24 year old male with 1 kg on each side. MSE/FM patient. You can see in the picture, the maxilla has downswung and the mandible has followed the maxilla downward as well. Varbrah have you used 1.5Kg on both sides? Why wouldnt your mandible be pushed back? If this patient has? I don’t think it’s headgear force

 

[JustDoIt]

i consider ppl who use bold font 7 messages as an alternative to actual arguments retards, but ye i saw that u came around

but like 80% of the ppl commenting itt have the wrong perception of what a 'facepuller' is even supposed to do, as shown by how fucking shit all the designs are (some even place upward force towards the back jfl)

Why is that the posterior part of the tongue is the most important when holding correct oral posture then?

 

[varbrah]

24 year old male with 1 kg on each side. MSE/FM patient. You can see in the picture, the maxilla has downswung and the mandible has followed the maxilla downward as well. Varbrah have you used 1.5Kg on both sides? Why wouldnt your mandible be pushed back? If this patient has? I don’t think it’s headgear force

Yeah I did 1.5kg per side. No shortening or downswing of the mandible for me.

The maxilla hasn't downswung, it's grown down and forward. If there was a rotational component the angle of the incisors would've changed. Also, on closer inspection I'm not sure wtf I'm looking at or if it's applies-to-apples? Why aren't his upper and lower incisors touching in the blue (after) x ray?

 

[Deleted member 8486]

Yeah I did 1.5kg per side. No shortening or downswing of the mandible for me.

The maxilla hasn't downswung, it's grown down and forward. If there was a rotational component the angle of the incisors would've changed. Also, on closer inspection I'm not sure wtf I'm looking at or if it's applies-to-apples? Why aren't his upper and lower incisors touching in the blue (after) x ray?

Yes. I misspoke. The maxilla didn’t downswung, they did grow downward though, but that doesn’t mean the mandible isn’t going backward and downward. The incisors aren’t touching because the maxilla has gone down pushing the mandible backward as well as the maxilla going forward. which is why I say -30 degree angle is not really ideal in cases of Class II.

 

[curryslayerordeath]

Why is that the posterior part of the tongue is the most important when holding correct oral posture then?

i dont get the crazy emphasis that ppl on tgw or reddit have abt the posterior tongue either, if anything, it would encourage remodelling/growth in the wrong direction (they prob fail to realize). although having that 'suction' hold would tighten the submental more and over time, move the hyoid upwards.

 

[varbrah]

Yes. I misspoke. The maxilla didn’t downswung, they did grow downward though, but that doesn’t mean the mandible isn’t going backward and downward. The incisors aren’t touching because the maxilla has gone down pushing the mandible backward as well as the maxilla going forward. which is why I say -30 degree angle is not really ideal in cases of Class II.

Yeah, Class II definitely not. Keep in mind though it depends on where the force is being applied in addition to the type of headgear used. For Class IIs youd want to avoid reciprocal force on the mandible

 

[JustDoIt]

i dont get the crazy emphasis that ppl on tgw or reddit have abt the posterior tongue either, if anything, it would encourage remodelling/growth in the wrong direction (they prob fail to realize). although having that 'suction' hold would tighten the submental more and over time, move the hyoid upwards.

Do you know of anything else non surgical that can be done to move the hyoid bone upwards?

I've found this study in this forum about exercises to move the hyoid upwards and the results seemed pretty legit.

 

[goat2x]

i dont get the crazy emphasis that ppl on tgw or reddit have abt the posterior tongue either, if anything, it would encourage remodelling/growth in the wrong direction (they prob fail to realize). although having that 'suction' hold would tighten the submental more and over time, move the hyoid upwards.

wdym by remodellling the wrong direction

 

[curryslayerordeath]

Do you know of anything else non surgical that can be done to move the hyoid bone upwards?

I've found this study in this forum about exercises to move the hyoid upwards and the results seemed pretty legit.

that thread that i think u are referring too was pretty solid on exercises, but most of it having all the attached muscles stretched upwards through proper facial development along w good oral posture. ive never seen anyone w a subpar hyoid position that has those criteria fulfilled.

also in that study u linked, look at the mean age of the subjects (74). the routines could be more significant bc they have more aging related muscle atrophy.

wdym by remodellling the wrong direction

placing pressure upwards on the posterior maxilla (which is what they mean by the back 1/3rd) wouldn't encourage remodelling of the bone in a new ccw-displaced position

 

[goat2x]

that thread that i think u are referring too was pretty solid on exercises, but most of it having all the attached muscles stretched upwards through proper facial development along w good oral posture. ive never seen anyone w a subpar hyoid position that has those criteria fulfilled.


placing pressure upwards on the posterior maxilla (which is what they mean by the back 1/3rd) wouldn't encourage remodelling of the bone in a new ccw-displaced position

tbh i dont think it would do anything lol

 

[Enfant terrible]

good thread

 

[WeWillAllAscend]

they even say it
dont get mse for more forward growth even with facepull
you need surgery for that
get mse if u have a narrow palate and you can try facepulling

That’s only if your done growing if your in puberty even late puberty assuming you haven’t been eating soy your whole life then everything should be open and you could probably get good foward growth. I’d like a 15-16 year old it they could expect good forward growth

 

[goat2x]

That’s only if your done growing if your in puberty even late puberty assuming you haven’t been eating soy your whole life then everything should be open and you could probably get good foward growth. I’d like a 15-16 year old it they could expect good forward growth

meh ok
16 is really the end lol