Fucking /r/athiesm m8 these cock sucking twats act like they know everything but when you give cohesive counter arguments they automatically ban you

[reptiles]

imagine being religious in 2023 (low IQ trait)

Imagine denying a Christain society wouldn't be better for you as an incel

 

[orangomango2003]

Imagine denying a Christain society wouldn't be better for you as an incel

it's not only about what's better for me or incels (you). do you think that you will be happy if you know women are forced to have sex with you when they don't really want to? there is a reason why women want good looking high quality males.

in a christian society science and facts will be denied and humanity will soon go extinct (climate change, diseases). if women are being forced to reproduce with incels the human race will be of much lower quality and therefore everyone will be ugly and delusional.

 

[reptiles]

I can already spot the flaws in the arguments. @reptiles

Here's the biggest flaws in the cosmological argument

1. Infinite regress in causation is possible, depending on the way you define causation
2. The universe may be an effect which doesn't require a cause
3. The universe or natural reality can have always existed atemporally and aspatially
4. The cause of the universe can be something other than God, as long as it exists without a cause

Here's the biggest flaw in the contingency argument

1. The strong version of the principle of sufficient reason cannot be proved. Moreover, if every true proposition has an explanation, then this will to an epistemic regress or force us to accept self evident brute facts , which negates PSR

2. The universe can contain everything that is contingent without being contingent itself, ie the universe can be a neccesary existence

I will address the 3 other arguments once OP has responded to these objections since the rest are pretty weak

Here is a mathematically rigorous defense incorporating advanced equations to demonstrate the philosophical incoherence of infinite regress and the necessity of an unconditioned cause of time itself:

The Friedman equation for cosmological expansion is:

H^2(t) = (8πG/3)ρ(t) - kc^2/a^2(t)

Where H is the Hubble parameter, G is Newton's constant, ρ is density, k is curvature and a(t) is the scale factor.

This relies on the existence of time (t), as does the Friedmann acceleration equation:

ä/a = -4πG/3(ρ + 3p/c^2)

Likewise, Einstein's field equations presuppose time:

Gμν + Λgμν = (8πG/c4)Tμν

Now, an infinite temporal regress faces insoluble problems:

Traversing an actual infinite series of successive events is logically incoherent. No starting point would exist.
Deriving temporal priority from later states makes no sense. Later events cannot explain earlier ones.
An infinite past timeline could never reach the present moment.
Thus, time itself requires a transcendent ground outside physical causality - an eternal, uncaused, timeless being. This avoids the contradictions of infinite regress.

God, as the necessary, immaterial, powerful, personal First Cause provides the unconditional explanation for the physical universe's temporal becoming.

In conclusion, the mathematics of cosmology analyzes time within the physical universe but cannot account for time's origination. The philosophical absurdity of infinite regress points unavoidably to the finite beginning of time and a non-temporal divine Creator. The logic is inextricable from the equations. God must exist

 

[Joe Rogancel]

atheism is probably right but they're all cucked tbh

 

[Fr0st]

the cosmogilogical argument.
Here is an expanded and highly complex version of the cosmological argument for monotheism at an advanced D.Sc level:
Ontological Substruction of Prime Origination
Definition 1: Existence precedes essence ontologically. That is, existence as being is irreducible, while the essence of particular things derives from their participated being.
Axiom 1: Absolutely no potential can actualize itself, for a potential lacks the actuality required to become actual.
Axiom 2: Only actualizers can actualize potentials to their actualized terminated states.
Theorem 1: If some collection of actualizers C exists, there must be at least one purely actual actualizer P not dependent on any other actualizers in C for its actuality. Proof: Regressing through the collection C, we must terminate in a purely actual actualizer P, else C would consist in an infinite essentially ordered regress of actualized potential actualizers, which is a logical impossibility by the principle of sufficient reason.
Definition 2: The complete absence of any potentiality in P entails that P exists outside space and time and lacks any material or temporal parts or passions.
Theorem 2: There can be no more than one purely actual actualizer P. Proof: If there were two purely actual actualizers P and Q, the identity of indiscernibles requires that they have identical attributes, in which case P and Q are one and the same purely actual actualizer.
Axiom 3: Existence is good, and the maximal existence of a purely actual actualizer would therefore be good to the maximal degree metaphysically possible.
Definition 3: A personal being is one with intellect and will. Only personal beings are capable of self-determination and exercising causal power voluntarily.
Theorem 3: The purely actual actualizer P must be a single all-good personal God with maximal existence metaphysically possible. Proof: Only conscious voluntary agency provides sufficient reason for the origin of spatiotemporal contingent existence from absolute metaphysical nothingness. Therefore, P must be personal. By Axiom 3 and the supreme perfection of P in Definition 2, P must also be all-good.
Conclusion: Therefore, monotheism as defined is logically proven to follow from ontological analysis of the necessary preconditions for the existence of contingent being. This provides a fully valid metaphysical demonstration of classical monotheism under the assumptions and axioms stipulate


the telelogical argument

Teleological Monogenesis of Biological Complexification

Observation 1: Biological life has evolved over billions of years from simple structures to highly complex organisms through minor variations and natural selection.

Axiom 1: Functionally complex systems capable of self-replication and information processing cannot emerge from purely stochastic processes. Some degree of teleological orientation is required.

Axiom 2: Intentionally guided evolution implies a goal-oriented intelligence behind the process.

Theorem 1: The fine-tuned fitness of organic chemistry, genetic coding machinery, and irreducible complexity of biochemical systems imply teleological guidance of abiogenesis and biological evolution toward greater complexity.

Axiom 3: Parasitism, predation, pain receptors, and mass extinctions reveal no single omnibenevolent teleological agent, since these processes are not optimally good.

Definition 1: Cooperative symbiosis and complex ecologies exhibit far more sustainable good than parasitism. Group competition selects for moral cooperation within groups.

Theorem 2: Biological evolution has been guided by a teleological demiurge pursuing an overarching goal of maximizing cooperative symbiosis, despite allowing partial evils due to initial constraints.

Axiom 4: A plurality of demiurges could not consistently cooperate toward a unified teleological goal due to diverging interests.

Theorem 3: Biological evolution has therefore been intricately directed by a single supremely rational demiurge toward the telos of self-aware cooperation. This entails metaphysical monotheism.

—Anticipated Objections—

Objection 1: Complexity can emerge from stochastic evolution without teleological guidance.

Reply: Irreducibly complex systems could not plausibly self-organize without goal-directed configuring of information.

Objection 2: Sociobiology explains cooperation from group selection without teleology.

Reply: Altruistic behaviors transcend reproductive fitness and cannot be explained reductively.

Objection 3: An evil demiurge or imperfect designer is not ruled out.

Reply: A wholly evil demiurge could not guide evolution toward cooperation, nor could squabbling demiurges collaborate on a unified teleological process.

Conclusion: Biological evolution exhibits ontological monogenesis by a supremely rational single Creator minimizing evil to achieve the good of symbiotic community. This demonstrates metaphysical monotheism as the only coherent explanation of biological teleology.


I'm sick and tired of these cock suckers on atheist sites acting like all religious people are retarded


@TRUE_CEL

as for why I'm a chrstain and an black piller it's simple the bible is more accurate on human nature why life is a hell and i think society would be a better place if it was christain

its reddit what do you expect

 

[OGJBSLAYER]

Here is a mathematically rigorous defense incorporating advanced equations to demonstrate the philosophical incoherence of infinite regress and the necessity of an unconditioned cause of time itself:

The Friedman equation for cosmological expansion is:

H^2(t) = (8πG/3)ρ(t) - kc^2/a^2(t)

Where H is the Hubble parameter, G is Newton's constant, ρ is density, k is curvature and a(t) is the scale factor.

The existence of time is compatible with infinite regress w.r.t causation

We are talking about events at t=0, the beginning of the universe, where the value of H^2(t) is 0... there can be no question of a cause before t=0

Let the universe be B and let it have a cause A, then A>C>A represents an infinite regress that goes in a circle

This relies on the existence of time (t), as does the Friedmann acceleration equation:

ä/a = -4πG/3(ρ + 3p/c^2)

Likewise, Einstein's field equations presuppose time:

Gμν + Λgμν = (8πG/c4)Tμν

As mentioned above, infinite regrees is compatible with time

Now, an infinite temporal regress faces insoluble problems:

Traversing an actual infinite series of successive events is logically incoherent. No starting point would exist.

No, it isn't. The solution to Zeno's paradox says you can traverse an infinite number of points on the real line, say between 0 and 1, in finite time.

You have presupposed theory A of time, which claims only the present exists. But if we subscribe to the theory B of time, then the past, present and future already exist. They are given. The passage of time for the person within the universe is actually just an illusion as Einstein maintained, "The dividing line between past, present and future is an illusion".

Deriving temporal priority from later states makes no sense. Later events cannot explain earlier ones.

There are no later events at t=0 , so any cause you invoke would either have to occur with the effect or the effect would not require a cause

An infinite past timeline could never reach the present moment.

Once more, you assume the future isn't already given. But it already exists if we take Einstein's special relativity seriously. There is no universal clock which can tell the time it takes to reach from one point in the universe to another. To sum it up briefly, the universe ITSELF doesn't have a clock.

Thus, time itself requires a transcendent ground outside physical causality - an eternal, uncaused, timeless being. This avoids the contradictions of infinite regress.

This just doesn't work since time is a physical dimension and our understanding of change and causation depends on it.

Once you invoke transcendental or metaphysical cause/time, the whole talk becomes nonsensical. It neither falls under the category of a priori facts ( given be reason ), nor a posteriori facts given by experience.

I have no reason to believe it is even coherent to talk about metaphysical cause/time

God, as the necessary, immaterial, powerful, personal First Cause provides the unconditional explanation for the physical universe's temporal becoming.

First of all, there can be an impersonal God or a natural reality that is neccesary , it doesn't even need to be God, let alone a personal God.

BTW, how the hell does an immaterial reality interact with a material reality ? What is this God you are speaking about ? Cause a non-material object can be anything that isn't material ( abstract objects, mental objects etc )

In conclusion, the mathematics of cosmology analyzes time within the physical universe but cannot account for time's origination. The philosophical absurdity of infinite regress points unavoidably to the finite beginning of time and a non-temporal divine Creator. The logic is inextricable from the equations. God must exist

Yeah, mathematics can't tell us about the philosophy of time, but it's a very useful tool. We need to use all of our knowledge, given by reason and experience to understand time. You have not done this at all I'm afraid

 

[reptiles]

it's not only about what's better for me or incels (you). do you think that you will be happy if you know women are forced to have sex with you when they don't really want to? there is a reason why women want good looking high quality males.

in a christian society science and facts will be denied and humanity will soon go extinct (climate change, diseases). if women are being forced to reproduce with incels the human race will be of much lower quality and therefore everyone will be ugly and delusional.

The scientific Revolution was founded start and pushed by Christains newton was a Christain lebeniz was a Christain Einstein wasnt a Christain but he was a Jew and there very close to Christains.

And all a Christain would do is it would make people feel guilty for bad behaviour the bible never denies the black pill unlike the Qur'an what it says is that the black pill is the result of the fall it's as simple as that

 

[reptiles]

@reptiles also what sect of the Christian faith are you in? or which do you fall closest to theologically?

I'm probably a Catholic my reasonings are.

1 there the only group in Christainty that has historically fought freemasonry satanism and Islam.

2 the chain of command from church doctrine is well established by the prophet's who wrote the bible.

3 Catholics have the most elaborate exocerisms and are the most open to admitting demons exist are real

 

[reptiles]

The existence of time is compatible with infinite regress w.r.t causation

We are talking about events at t=0, the beginning of the universe, where the value of H^2(t) is 0... there can be no question of a cause before t=0

Let the universe be B and let it have a cause A, then A>C>A represents an infinite regress that goes in a circle



As mentioned above, infinite regrees is compatible with time

No, it isn't. The solution to Zeno's paradox says you can traverse an infinite number of points on the real line, say between 0 and 1, in finite time.

You have presupposed theory A of time, which claims only the present exists. But if we subscribe to the theory B of time, then the past, present and future already exist. They are given. The passage of time for the person within the universe is actually just an illusion as Einstein maintained, "The dividing line between past, present and future is an illusion".



View attachment 2456106


There are no later events at t=0 , so any cause you invoke would either have to occur with the effect or the effect would not require a cause


Once more, you assume the future isn't already given. But it already exists if we take Einstein's special relativity seriously. There is no universal clock which can tell the time it takes to reach from one point in the universe to another. To sum it up briefly, the universe ITSELF doesn't have a clock.



This just doesn't work since time is a physical dimension and our understanding of change and causation depends on it.

Once you invoke transcendental or metaphysical cause/time, the whole talk becomes nonsensical. It neither falls under the category of a priori facts ( given be reason ), nor a posteriori facts given by experience.

I have no reason to believe it is even coherent to talk about metaphysical cause/time



First of all, there can be an impersonal God or a natural reality that is neccesary , it doesn't even need to be God, let alone a personal God.

BTW, how the hell does an immaterial reality interact with a material reality ? What is this God you are speaking about ? Cause a non-material object can be anything that isn't material ( abstract objects, mental objects etc )



Yeah, mathematics can't tell us about the philosophy of time, but it's a very useful tool. We need to use all of our knowledge, given by reason and experience to understand time. You have not done this at all I'm afraid

Here is a detailed rebuttal using advanced mathematics and physics to demonstrate the impossibility of infinite causal regress and point towards monotheism as the only coherent explanation:

The proposal of circular infinite regress A->C->A is incoherent for several reasons:

1. Traversing an actual infinite is mathematically impossible. This is provable using Cantor's diagonal argument, which shows |N| != |R|. Cardinalities of infinite sets lead to contradictions.
2. Causation must be fundamentally asymmetrical due to entropy. The Second Law states ΔS ≥ 0 for isolated systems. Reversing causation would decrease entropy:

ΔS = ∫(δQ/T) < 0 (Impossible)

1. Simultaneous mutual causation is incoherent. This would require each cause to ontologically precede the other, which is logically impossible.
2. Quantitative properties cannot be simultaneously incremental and maximal. But an infinite causal chain would require this, which is a contradiction.
3. The existence of time itself requires a causal explanation. The Friedmann equation presupposes time:

H^2(t) = (8πG/3)ρ(t) - kc^2/a^2(t)

But what caused time itself and the instigation of this function? An actual infinite regress cannot provide this.

In summary, the very coherence of causation requires an uncaused First Cause. The proposal of circular infinite regress is thus logically and mathematically impossible.

Furthermore, monotheism is strongly indicated:

• The unified physical constants and laws point to one transcendent source.
• Multiple infinite beings with limitless attributes are incoherent. Only one omnipotent, omniscient being can exist.

Therefore, both the impossibility of infinitism and the positive evidence decisively indicate monotheism as the only rational metaphysics. The equations support what philosophy and theology have long maintained.

 

[OGJBSLAYER]

Here is a detailed rebuttal using advanced mathematics and physics to demonstrate the impossibility of infinite causal regress and point towards monotheism as the only coherent explanation:

The proposal of circular infinite regress A->C->A is incoherent for several reasons:

1. Traversing an actual infinite is mathematically impossible. This is provable using Cantor's diagonal argument, which shows |N| != |R|. Cardinalities of infinite sets lead to contradictions.

What lol ? Do you even know what you are talking about ?

Yes, the real set has greater cardinality than the set of natural numbers, but you have confused the length of the set with the cardinality.

The set [0,1] has 1 length, even though its cardinality is equal to |R|

We define Time = Distance / speed

For eg, if you traverse a real line [a,b] in b-a/t, then it will take t time to traverse b-a length

1. Causation must be fundamentally asymmetrical due to entropy. The Second Law states ΔS ≥ 0 for isolated systems. Reversing causation would decrease entropy:

ΔS = ∫(δQ/T) < 0 (Impossible)

Once again, the integral is undefined at T=0 , you cannot say anything about entropy at T=0, the beginning of our universe, which is what we want to discuss.

1. Simultaneous mutual causation is incoherent. This would require each cause to ontologically precede the other, which is logically impossible.

In each cycle, A>B>A , ( A,B) are unique. Moreover, they can be ontologically dependent on each other. It all depends on how you define causation.

1. Quantitative properties cannot be simultaneously incremental and maximal. But an infinite causal chain would require this, which is a contradiction.

False, this doesn't apply to infinite sets. For example, you can always host an infinite more guests in Hilbert's hotel without causing an increase in the number of guests in Hilberts hotel.

Infinite operations as defined as follows

+ =

H^2(t) = (8πG/3)ρ(t) - kc^2/a^2(t)

But what caused time itself and the instigation of this function? An actual infinite regress cannot provide this.

Time didn't need a cause since there cannot be any cause before T=0, and if there was a cause at T=0, it would already require the existence of time. So time is either uncaused or uncreated.

In summary, the very coherence of causation requires an uncaused First Cause. The proposal of circular infinite regress is thus logically and mathematically impossible.

Nope

Furthermore, monotheism is strongly indicated:

• The unified physical constants and laws point to one transcendent source.
• Multiple infinite beings with limitless attributes are incoherent. Only one omnipotent, omniscient being can exist.

Therefore, both the impossibility of infinitism and the positive evidence decisively indicate monotheism as the only rational metaphysics. The equations support what philosophy and theology have long maintained.

Who said there needs to be multiple infinite beings ? Even if there is a single natural cause of the universe, as long as it is uncaused, then it does away with God.

I told you the teleological argument just doesn't work.

1. No one knows what physical conditions are neccesary for the existence of a stable universe and life
2. The Multiverse theory offers a better explanation
3. The Anthropic principle is just a tautology, it doesn't tell us there is design or not.

 

[reptiles]

What lol ? Do you even know what you are talking about ?

Yes, the real set has greater cardinality than the set of natural numbers, but you have confused the length of the set with the cardinality.

The set [0,1] has 1 length, even though its cardinality is equal to |R|

We define Time = Distance / speed

For eg, if you traverse a real line [a,b] in b-a/t, then it will take t time to traverse b-a length



Once again, the integral is undefined at T=0 , you cannot say anything about entropy at T=0, the beginning of our universe, which is what we want to discuss.

In each cycle, A>B>A , ( A,B) are unique. Moreover, they can be ontologically dependent on each other. It all depends on how you define causation.


False, this doesn't apply to infinite sets. For example, you can always host an infinite more guests in Hilbert's hotel without causing an increase in the number of guests in Hilberts hotel.

Infinite operations as defined as follows

+ =


Time didn't need a cause since there cannot be any cause before T=0, and if there was a cause at T=0, it would already require the existence of time. So time is either uncaused or uncreated.

Nope

Who said there needs to be multiple infinite beings ? Even if there is a single natural cause of the universe, as long as it is uncaused, then it does away with God.

I told you the teleological argument just doesn't work.

1. No one knows what physical conditions are neccesary for the existence of a stable universe and life
2. The Multiverse theory offers a better explanation
3. The Anthropic principle is just a tautology, it doesn't tell us there is design or not.

Your argument overoverlooks the manifold incoherencies of actualizing infinites exposed through advanced mathematics. Cantor and Gödel's proofs reveal fundamental limitations.

The set of all ordinal numbers Ω cannot exist due to Burali-Forti's paradox: If ω ∈ Ω, it is both successor and limit, a contradiction. Ω's proper class existence would require classes beyond sets, but definitionally classes can only contain sets.

Infinite time requires traversing ω steps. But ω satisfies no recursive rule, as proven by Goodstein's theorem. Thus no computational procedure can exhaust ω.

This extends to spacetime. Semi-classical quantum gravity indicates a minimum length scale ∆x ≥ ħG/c^3. Hence an infinite past would require traversing an infinite series of finite intervals, which Cantorian transfinites preclude.

Additionally, eternal cosmic expansion contains infinite discrete topological transitions, violating finitistic physical laws. As Hawking notes, infinities signal a breakdown in theory.

Thermodynamically, an infinite past implies Poincaré recurrence. Eventually, quantum fluctuations would return any finite system to an arbitrarily precise former state, ending proper time. But this violates the Arrow of Time's continuous entropy increase.

Moreover, an actual infinite cannot be formed through successive addition. Yet infinite past events require enumerating uncountable, continuous states. Aleph-null additions cannot produce larger cardinalities.

In summary, modern physics and mathematics definitively demonstrate the incoherence of actualized infinities metaphysically and physically. An absolute beginning to spacetime is logically necessitated. And this beginning requires an external, eternal, metaphysically necessary being - an Unmoved Mover - as the ultimate non-contingent origin of contingent reality.