God and free will

[134applesauce456]

lots of abrahmic religions argue that God gives us free will and that's why we suffer so much (at the hands of others)


would you sacrifice some of your free will to limit human suffering?

 

[TopTierIncel42]

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[EmperorVon]

It’s complete nonsense in theory because the Abrahamic god is supposedly omnipotent and omniscient which will mean by definition he knows that by doing creation the way he decided to do it everything would turn out the way he saw it making free will irrelevant because it was inevitable as part of his design

 

[Decha]

It’s complete nonsense in theory because the Abrahamic god is supposedly omnipotent and omniscient which will mean by definition he knows that by doing creation the way he decided to do it everything would turn out the way he saw it making free will irrelevant because it was inevitable as part of his design

Yes I also think that God's foresight would necessitate that determinism be true.

 

[Decha]

lots of abrahmic religions argue that God gives us free will and that's why we suffer so much (at the hands of others)


would you sacrifice some of your free will to limit human suffering?

The freewill theodicy also doesn't explain natural evils and suffering that don't come about from people's choices. Like subhuman genetics for example or natural disasters

 

[EmperorVon]

Yes I also think that God's foresight would necessitate that determinism be true.

Exactly how can free will exist if god knows all that will be and could be

 

[EmperorVon]

The freewill theodicy also doesn't explain natural evils and suffering that don't come about from people's choices. Like subhuman genetics for example or natural disasters

The schizo religious people just write that off with pre and post flood biology, the fall of man etc

 

[Decha]

The schizo religious people just write that off with pre and post flood biology, the fall of man etc

I might be one of them, I still cope with Christianity knowing all this

 

[134applesauce456]

Exactly how can free will exist if god knows all that will be and could be

you are right but my post was referring to the illusion of free will

even though God knows what we will do,

nothing is stopping us from doing whatever we want

I'm trying to say that something should stop us , we shouldn't have the ability to 100% do what we please (if it invokes mass suffering on others)

 

[JasGews69x]

The freewill theodicy also doesn't explain natural evils and suffering that don't come about from people's choices. Like subhuman genetics for example or natural disasters

Humans dont have 'free will'
They have limited choice based on the circumstances they are put in
Subhuman genetics is mostly poor diet
and natural disasters - Free trial of life is over

 

[Decha]

Humans dont have 'free will'
They have limited choice based on the circumstances they are put in
Subhuman genetics is mostly poor diet
and natural disasters - Free trial of life is over

Under determinism even this choice is only seemingly aparent and only illusory. If we understand God to be Omniscient and he foresees that Timmy will steal on x day, when would you say is Timmy free not to steal?

 

[JasGews69x]

Under determinism even this choice is only seemingly aparent and only illusory. If we understand God to be Omniscient and he foresees that you Timmy will steal on x day, when would you say is Timmy free not to steal?

Yeah He could have chosen not to - but God knew He will choose it
Knowing ≠ Force
If it wasnt, then God wouldnt punish for it or put anyone in Hell
This proves they it was all on them

 

[Decha]

Yeah He could have chosen not to - but God knew He will choose it
Knowing ≠ Force
If it wasnt, then God wouldnt punish for it or put anyone in Hell
This proves they it was all on them

knowing would necessitate causation in God's case, since his foresight implies events are established before they happen.

 

[Decha]

Yeah He could have chosen not to - but God knew He will choose it
Knowing ≠ Force
If it wasnt, then God wouldnt punish for it or put anyone in Hell
This proves they it was all on them

Also rep me nigga so I don't fuck my rep ratio debating ts

 

[JasGews69x]

knowing would necessitate causation in God's case, since his foresight implies events are established before they happen.

If i know you're going to fart did i force you to fart or establish it?

 

[Decha]

If i know you're going to fart did i force you to fart or establish it?

No but obviously God is in a unique and special position wouldn't you say?

 

[134applesauce456]

No but obviously God is in a unique and special position wouldn't you say?

idk but he technically isn't forcing you to do anything, he just knows

God doesn't force people to become child rapists but he knows theyll do it

my OG point is that I wish he would interfere, and take away this free will for the sake of goodness

 

[JasGews69x]

No but obviously God is in a unique and special position wouldn't you say?

yeah exactly He just knows it

 

[Decha]

idk but he technically isn't forcing you to do anything, he just knows

He technically would be actually. Since he is the uncaused cause, the necessary being at the bottom of all contingent causal chains that bring about the universe.

 

[Decha]

idk but he technically isn't forcing you to do anything, he just knows

God doesn't force people to become child rapists but he knows theyll do it

my OG point is that I wish he would interfere, and take away this free will for the sake of goodness

The way I see it, you either say no, Timmy is not free to choose not to steal, and that affirms determinism.

Or you say yes, Timmy is free to choose not to steal, but then you'd have to drop the notion of God's perfect knowledge, because his foresight would have been inaccurate

 

[134applesauce456]

The way I see it, you either say no, Timmy is not free to choose not to steal, and that affirms determinism.

Or you say yes, Timmy is free to choose not to steal, but then you'd have to drop the notion of God's perfect knowledge

I see your point

but I think from the religious standpoint, God is so high iq and powerful he just simply knows what will happen,

his knowledge does not create necessity of the action, knowledge itself cannot cause action

if Timmy were to freely choose otherwise, God’s knowledge would differ accordingly.

 

[lowtiersubhuman]

lots of abrahmic religions argue that God gives us free will and that's why we suffer so much (at the hands of others)


would you sacrifice some of your free will to limit human suffering?

God does not exist

 

[134applesauce456]

God does not exist

fair enough

 

[manhattanbound]

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134applesauce456 im crine son

 

[Doesitmatter?]

idk but he technically isn't forcing you to do anything, he just knows

God doesn't force people to become child rapists but he knows theyll do it

my OG point is that I wish he would interfere, and take away this free will for the sake of goodness

God littrally created timmy. If he becomes a grapist, and God knew it even before creating him, doesn't that mean God is just an asshole looking for excuses to punish computer simulations?.

Another point, every decision you make is directly or indirectly influenced by your environment, your upbringing, genes, and many more factors to count. If you could list all the factors right, you could actually predict any persons next decision with 100 percent accuracy. If there was a clone of our universe at its singularity stage, that clone singularity would explode to exactly what our universe is now. Everything to the minute details. Thus saying that one has 'free will' is non-sensical at best.
@Mainlander