Got told to fuck off from a girl i cold approached half an hour ago

[Deleted member 23772]

One of the most brutal rejections ive ever had when it comes to foid. She was sitting at a park just staring at people. I walked up to her and wanted to chat a bit, only to get told to fuck off with a violent tone. I almost pissed myself cuz of the way she said that, so i went home again and started to think what the fuck just happened.

 

[WeiWei]

Shouldve brandished a knife while at it you fucking idiot.

 

[Deleted member 29796]

Have you ever been cold approached?

 

[Deleted member 23772]

Have you ever been cold approached?

yes, one time at a nightclub

 

[Deleted member 21735]

i think women should give a chance to a guy who has the confidence to cold approach them

 

[bloomercel]

How old was she?

 

[Deleted member 29796]

yes, one time at a nightclub

For people it happens often to, it's fucking annoying. Think about it, you don't know them, so why are you walking up to them? It's entirely looks based, so if you're not exceptionally good looking, expect people to be startled and annoyed.

Cold approaching is low IQ unless you are exceptionally attractive, and even then, it's fucking stupid and I'm going to explain why. If I'm attracted to a woman, I simply put myself in her view, if she gives the signs, I approach. If you are attractive, that is one the easiest fucking ways to get women, it's like cheat code status. Cold approaching, especially as a man, is dumb because the women know you are interested primarily in their looks because you don't know them, the women don't know if you are even safe, they don't know what will happen when they say "no". I mean, bro, try to pretend you are a weak and small woman and some random walks up to you for a number or some shit, you know MOST men aren't smooth, so just think about how alarming that is.

 

[Deleted member 23772]

For people it happens often to, it's fucking annoying. Think about it, you don't know them, so why are you walking up to them? It's entirely looks based, so if you're not exceptionally good looking, expect people to be startled and annoyed.

Cold approaching is low IQ unless you are exceptionally attractive, and even then, it's fucking stupid and I'm going to explain why. If I'm attracted to a woman, I simply put myself in her view, if she gives the signs, I approach. If you are attractive, that is one the easiest fucking ways to get women, it's like cheat code status. Cold approaching, especially as a man, is dumb because the women know you are interested primarily in their looks because you don't know them, the women don't know if you are even safe, they don't know what will happen when they say "no". I mean, bro, try to pretend you are a weak and small woman and some random walks up to you for a number or some shit, you know MOST men aren't smooth, so just think about how alarming that is.

well its not for getting foids, its for training myself to become less inhib and better at convo skills with foids. Check this thread if ur curious

Cold approached 4 foids earlier today

Ok hear me out. This isnt because i wanted to hit on them, cuz unless ur very gl, its like trying to pull the lottery. Anyways, i managed to talk to 2 foids for 2-3 minutes and we just talked about where we lived, what we do, etc. It went alright tbh. They asked me some questions back but no...

looksmax.org

 

[Deleted member 29796]

well its not for getting foids, its for training myself to become less inhib and better at convo skills with foids. Check this thread if ur curious

Cold approached 4 foids earlier today

Ok hear me out. This isnt because i wanted to hit on them, cuz unless ur very gl, its like trying to pull the lottery. Anyways, i managed to talk to 2 foids for 2-3 minutes and we just talked about where we lived, what we do, etc. It went alright tbh. They asked me some questions back but no...

looksmax.org

Ah, probably best not to bother randoms. There are communities focused around building talking skills and discords have open chats, I see what you are getting at though and it could be effective.

If you are in America, although you can work phones from other countries, political campaigns are starting now for the elections next year. These campaigns will have door-to-door canvassing and you can get paid for this role too, but you essentially knock on doors and talk to people all day. I would say, at the minimum, you will talk to at least 100 people, but I have only worked rural areas.

 

[Interested]

.

 

[Interested]

For people it happens often to, it's fucking annoying. Think about it, you don't know them, so why are you walking up to them? It's entirely looks based, so if you're not exceptionally good looking, expect people to be startled and annoyed.

Cold approaching is low IQ unless you are exceptionally attractive, and even then, it's fucking stupid and I'm going to explain why. If I'm attracted to a woman, I simply put myself in her view, if she gives the signs, I approach. If you are attractive, that is one the easiest fucking ways to get women, it's like cheat code status. Cold approaching, especially as a man, is dumb because the women know you are interested primarily in their looks because you don't know them, the women don't know if you are even safe, they don't know what will happen when they say "no". I mean, bro, try to pretend you are a weak and small woman and some random walks up to you for a number or some shit, you know MOST men aren't smooth, so just think about how alarming that is.

She could've been a bit nicer though, a bit of kindness in rejection goes a long way

 

[TheAnomaly]

One of the most brutal rejections ive ever had when it comes to foid. She was sitting at a park just staring at people. I walked up to her and wanted to chat a bit, only to get told to fuck off with a violent tone. I almost pissed myself cuz of the way she said that, so i went home again and started to think what the fuck just happened.

A friend approached a girl in a club. She told him ‘fuck off creep!’. ‘mirin the mental fortitude of all those who approach. tip.

 

[dimorphism]

How old was she?

 

[Deleted member 23772]

How old was she?

she looked like a college girl

 

[New Poster]

For people it happens often to, it's fucking annoying. Think about it, you don't know them, so why are you walking up to them? It's entirely looks based, so if you're not exceptionally good looking, expect people to be startled and annoyed.

Cold approaching is low IQ unless you are exceptionally attractive, and even then, it's fucking stupid and I'm going to explain why. If I'm attracted to a woman, I simply put myself in her view, if she gives the signs, I approach. If you are attractive, that is one the easiest fucking ways to get women, it's like cheat code status. Cold approaching, especially as a man, is dumb because the women know you are interested primarily in their looks because you don't know them, the women don't know if you are even safe, they don't know what will happen when they say "no". I mean, bro, try to pretend you are a weak and small woman and some random walks up to you for a number or some shit, you know MOST men aren't smooth, so just think about how alarming that is.

This is the dumbest post on the forum and the reason all of you are incels. If you expect attractive young women to make it clear they're interested without you doing anything, you will be alone forever. It's not happening for sub-chads. You will just be ignored. Cold approaching sucks, but it's the only chance sub-chads have at attractive girls.

 

[bloomercel]

she looked like a college girl

Girls in their 20s feel like they are on top of the world, they think it would be an insult for them to lower themselves to your level by interacting with you. Younger girls haven't been run through yet and older woman are desperate. Go for jbs or milfs.

 

[Deleted member 29796]

This is the dumbest post on the forum and the reason all of you are incels. If you expect attractive young women to make it clear they're interested without you doing anything, you will be alone forever. It's not happening for sub-chads. You will just be ignored. Cold approaching sucks, but it's the only chance sub-chads have at attractive girls.

Except I get approached. lol And no, an attractive girl will definitely give signs, wtf, they are the primary sign givers. The average girls are the ones most likely to approach, attractive women, unless they are godly attractive, are usually insecure as fuck so they just stick to staring, they rarely approach unless they are aggressive and crazy.

 

[New Poster]

Except I get approached. lol And no, an attractive girl will definitely give signs, wtf, they are the primary sign givers. The average girls are the ones most likely to approach, attractive women, unless they are godly attractive, are usually insecure as fuck so they just stick to staring, they rarely approach unless they are aggressive and crazy.

Translation: only mid girls approach you and not hot ones... yeah, that's the point I was making. Sure, if I wanted to date a girl below my league, I could just wait around to be approached. But I like hot girls that are younger than me, so I'll keep hitting them up.

 

[theRiderEffect]

its just a shittest

 

[Deleted member 29796]

Translation: only mid girls approach you and not hot ones... yeah, that's the point I was making. Sure, if I wanted to date a girl below my league, I could just wait around to be approached. I like hot girls that are younger than me, so I'll keep hitting them up.

Nah, real translation is you clearly don't get approached and don't get attention, you came here to flex your inexperience.

AND at "mid girls", most men don't get approached, if I'm being approached by mid girls, you think I can't do better? Logic.

 

[HumidVent]

My PUA friend would get rejected like this all the time, whenever I would be walking with him on the side walk and I would see a girl in the distance I would slowly back off so people wouldn't think he was my friend, as he would approach and get rejected by almost every women he came across. So much second hand embarrassment with him.

 

[New Poster]

Nah, real translation is you clearly don't get approached and don't get attention, you came here to flex your inexperience.

AND at "mid girls", most men don't get approached, if I'm being approached by mid girls, you think I can't do better? Logic.

I'm literally repeating what you said. You get approached by mid girls and not hot ones. That's the point I'm making. The real question is whether approaching raises your odds of fucking hot girls. The answer is obviously yes. So, yeah, you should approach -- unless you're a legit trucel.

 

[Deleted member 29796]

I'm literally repeating what you said. You get approached by mid girls and not hot ones. That's the point I'm making. The real question is whether approaching raises your odds of fucking hot girls. The answer is obviously yes. So, yeah, you should approach.

Approach, yeah, I never said don't approach. I'm against cold approaching, it's not effective, it harms other people, and it's honestly just dumb but I don't feel like breaking that part down. Cold approaching, for me, means walking up to people who have never seen you and don't know, they haven't even glanced at you.

Understand what I'm saying, and I can tell you, attractive women do this, and attractive to me is like 7/10, I have never been around higher than that... Attractive women, in a setting where we are seated, school for me, will usually just be going about their day, until they scan the room, see you, do the double take, and then you catch them from time to time clearly looking at you. That's what most "attractive" women have done to me, lower than that, those women honestly just come right up and talk to me or find a way to eventually talk to me through other people, they have more confidence, in my experience. But from there, you can approach, and I'm saying that's when you should approach. What I would not do, is see the woman scan the room, not look at me, never staring at me, and just approach her randomly after class lets out, out of the blue, that's fucking dumb, imo.

I could only see cold approaching being effective for an absolute chad, and even then, I would say his chances are low, so what hope does anyone else have?

 

[New Poster]

Approach, yeah, I never said don't approach. I'm against cold approaching, it's not effective, it harms other people, and it's honestly just dumb but I don't feel like breaking that part down. Cold approaching, for me, means walking up to people who have never seen you and don't know, they haven't even glanced at you.

Understand what I'm saying, and I can tell you, attractive women do this, and attractive to me is like 7/10, I have never been around higher than that... Attractive women, in a setting where we are seated, school for me, will usually just be going about their day, until they scan the room, see you, do the double take, and then you catch them from time to time clearly looking at you. That's what most "attractive" women have done to me, lower than that, those women honestly just come right up and talk to me or find a way to eventually talk to me through other people, they have more confidence, in my experience. But from there, you can approach, and I'm saying that's when you should approach. What I would not do, is see the woman scan the room, not look at me, never staring at me, and just approach her randomly after class lets out, out of the blue, that's fucking dumb, imo.

I could only see cold approaching being effective for an absolute chad, and even then, I would say his chances are low, so what hope does anyone else have?

I hate to break it to you, but you're not going to be in school surrounded by young single women forever. By 22, you're going to be going to work with a small group of oldcels probably. What exactly is the plan, then?

 

[Deleted member 29796]

And I should note, for future reference, the whole "slaying" shit is dumb, cold approaching dumb, stop being simpletoms and work towards a woman that's worth it. I don't support random hookups in the first place or the idea of using a lot of women. You shouldn't be cold approaching because the odds of compatibility are going to be low as fuck unless you are in a place dedicated to a specific interest.

Can't continue being chains to such pointless and dangerous pleasures. You get nothing out of fucking random women, any man that tells you otherwise is likely a loser, someone that doesn't have a family, doesn't have a legacy, and is likely feeling empty every day, it's why he chases pleasure. He would do better to fix his mind. That person is me, btw.

Ironically, it's your warped understanding of how life should be navigated, that has led you here and will lead you to things you wish you hadn't done.

 

[Deleted member 29796]

I hate to break it to you, but you're not going to be in school surrounded by young single women forever. By 22, you're going to be going to work with a small group of oldcels probably. What exactly is the plan, then?

I see your point, same thing. I get signals in the workplace, store, etc. I recognize how OP the classroom is, I'm not dumb about that. Plus, I don't see a major issue with online dating, or even matchmaking, I'm looking for a serious partner at this point. I don't care for just randomly fucking women, I have hardly gotten anything out of that, and the women that partake in that are actually using you, high quality women don't go around fucking randoms. I know guys like to think they are running through women, you are only running through well-intentioned women, the women looking for hookups can easily blind themselves to any type of personal connection while using you purely for your dick, if it's good. It's really men that struggle with randomly fucking and falling in love.

 

[Artemis]

Shouldve brandished a knife while at it you fucking idiot.

 

[New Poster]

I see your point, same thing. I get signals in the workplace, store, etc. I recognize how OP the classroom is, I'm not dumb about that. Plus, I don't see a major issue with online dating, or even matchmaking, I'm looking for a serious partner at this point. I don't care for just randomly fucking women, I have hardly gotten anything out of that, and the women that partake in that are actually using you, high quality women don't go around fucking randoms. I know guys like to think they are running through women, you are only running through well-intentioned women, the women looking for hookups can easily blind themselves to any type of personal connection while using you purely for your dick, if it's good. It's really men that struggle with randomly fucking and falling in love.

So you're so attractive you catch hot women doing double takes in stores? You know, I live in southern california -- land of the chads -- and women walk past legit 8/10 guys like they're nothing. But you, incel mcshitposter, get hot girls double taking at your aesthetics? Okay, cool.

And, for the record, all women are sluts and like sex. Lol at this madonna/whore complex shit.

 

[Deleted member 29796]

So you're so attractive you catch hot women doing double takes in stores? You know, I live in southern california -- land of the chads -- and women walk past legit 8/10 guys like they're nothing. But you, incel mcshitposter, get hot girls double taking at your aesthetics? Okay, cool.

I'm not in fucking california, I'm in hickland, I'm a cheat code here. But I don't think I would do bad in top places, I'm just not model tier. And I wouldn't have bragged if you didn't challenge me as being some incel just because you had a disagreement with what I said. I don't care if you believe me because it doesn't change my reality.

And, for the record, all women are sluts and like sex. Lol at this madonna/whore complex shit.

galaxy brain takes

 

[incel194012940]

well its not for getting foids, its for training myself to become less inhib and better at convo skills with foids. Check this thread if ur curious

Cold approached 4 foids earlier today

Ok hear me out. This isnt because i wanted to hit on them, cuz unless ur very gl, its like trying to pull the lottery. Anyways, i managed to talk to 2 foids for 2-3 minutes and we just talked about where we lived, what we do, etc. It went alright tbh. They asked me some questions back but no...

looksmax.org

Ah, probably best not to bother randoms. There are communities focused around building talking skills and discords have open chats, I see what you are getting at though and it could be effective.

If you are in America, although you can work phones from other countries, political campaigns are starting now for the elections next year. These campaigns will have door-to-door canvassing and you can get paid for this role too, but you essentially knock on doors and talk to people all day. I would say, at the minimum, you will talk to at least 100 people, but I have only worked rural areas.

yes my cousin attract socially awkard incels who talk about their politics/cringe

it kills the whole table vibe as everyone listening to but also ignoring the incel and my cousin go uh huh, interesting, nice to meet you

 

[Deleted member 29796]

yes my cousin attract socially awkard incels who talk about their politics/cringe

it kills the whole table vibe as everyone listening to but also ignoring the incel and my cousin go uh huh, interesting, nice to meet you

I honestly see cold approaching (approach without IOI) as morally wrong, especially with how crazy people are today.

 

[New Poster]

I'm not in fucking california, I'm in hickland, I'm a cheat code here. But I don't think I would do bad in top places, I'm just not model tier. And I wouldn't have bragged if you didn't challenge me as being some incel just because you had a disagreement with what I said. I don't care if you believe me because it doesn't change my reality.


galaxy brain takes

Cool story, gigachad.

The reality is that you're just young, scared, and don't know where the boundaries are yet. You have all the traits that have created the incel epidemic. It's so much harder to date if you're passive and need a million green lights to make a move. This is the attitude that dooms so many guys to online dating where their only options are 2+ points below them. Hopefully yoi'll grow out of this. If not, you're in for a rough life.

 

[Deleted member 18879]

One of the most brutal rejections ive ever had when it comes to foid. She was sitting at a park just staring at people. I walked up to her and wanted to chat a bit, only to get told to fuck off with a violent tone. I almost pissed myself cuz of the way she said that, so i went home again and started to think what the fuck just happened.

You're not entitled to anything

 

[Staceymaxxing]

Approach, yeah, I never said don't approach. I'm against cold approaching, it's not effective, it harms other people, and it's honestly just dumb but I don't feel like breaking that part down. Cold approaching, for me, means walking up to people who have never seen you and don't know, they haven't even glanced at you.

Understand what I'm saying, and I can tell you, attractive women do this, and attractive to me is like 7/10, I have never been around higher than that... Attractive women, in a setting where we are seated, school for me, will usually just be going about their day, until they scan the room, see you, do the double take, and then you catch them from time to time clearly looking at you. That's what most "attractive" women have done to me, lower than that, those women honestly just come right up and talk to me or find a way to eventually talk to me through other people, they have more confidence, in my experience. But from there, you can approach, and I'm saying that's when you should approach. What I would not do, is see the woman scan the room, not look at me, never staring at me, and just approach her randomly after class lets out, out of the blue, that's fucking dumb, imo.

I could only see cold approaching being effective for an absolute chad, and even then, I would say his chances are low, so what hope does anyone else have?

Both of you are right and saying the same thing for the most part @New Poster

Also my experience for the most part actually with strong htbs/stacylites ive fucked

its usually the average or slightly average girls that will be confident enough to approach or make it super super clear

However I will add a middle ground here from personal experience
Some attractive women are so insecure if they are attracted to you that they actually make it seem like they are not(walk past you without looking at you deliberately/look at you only when you are not noticing)

Happened with a model I recently dated.(she even posted a tiktok about this days after we met)
This is where I slightly agree with @New Poster that you should approach even if you don't necessarily get signs out the blue as you might be missing out on women who are actually quite attracted to you but have big egos and a very fast closing window for you to take action.

Again, some attractive women who are attracted to you will act like they are not. Idk why the fuck that is but I go out to clubs and parties often, I have had this. I am not a kid in high school or uni so this is real life experience with girls who have left school as well but hot.

Immediately I approached, it was game over like they were waiting for years for me and then P in V.

 

[Deleted member 29155]

yes, one time at a nightclub

was she norwegian?

 

[Deleted member 29796]

its usually the average or slightly average girls that will be confident enough to approach or make it super super clear

However I will add a middle ground here from personal experience
Some attractive women are so insecure if they are attracted to you that they actually make it seem like they are not(walk past you without looking at you deliberately)

This is the experience of anyone that gets approached.




And yeah, I said attractive women are more insecure, so technically they are more approachable but I don't think it should be cold approached, you should work your way into their social space. I came to the realization that attractive women are actually easier to get than average women, but just consider, attractive women are likely dealing with a ton of odd shit when they go out, a cold approach is just you piling on that, low effectiveness.

 

[New Poster]

Both of you are right and saying the same thing for the most part @New Poster

Also my experience for the most part actually with strong htbs/stacylites ive fucked

its usually the average or slightly average girls that will be confident enough to approach or make it super super clear

However I will add a middle ground here from personal experience
Some attractive women are so insecure if they are attracted to you that they actually make it seem like they are not(walk past you without looking at you deliberately)

Happened with a model I recently dated. This is where I slightly agree with @New Poster that you should approach even if you don't necessarily get signs out the blue as you might be missing out on women who are actually too attracted to you but have big egos and a very fast closing window for you to take action

Again, some attractive women who are attracted to you will act like they are not. I go out to clubs and parties often, I have had this.

Immediately I approached, it was game over like they were waiting for years for me and then P in V

The middle ground is that you can initiate and test the waters before approaching. Little things like holding eye contact or standing too close to someone are good ways of testing the waters before an approach. I certainly don't do the pua running up to random people and announcing my love for them. You can approach more smoothly than that. But ffs you need to be initiating and moving things forward.

 

[Deleted member 23772]

was she norwegian?

yea i think so

 

[Deleted member 29155]

yea i think so

how did it go?

 

[Deleted member 29796]

The middle ground is that you can initiate and test the waters before approaching. Little things like holding eye contact or standing too close to someone are good ways of testing the waters before an approach. I certainly don't do the pua running up to random people and announcing my love for them. You can approach more smoothly than that. But ffs you need to be initiating and moving things forward.

Bro, we are essentially in agreement. Testing the waters and looking for eye contact isn't cold approaching, what you are describing is what I described in the post that led to you calling it the dumbest post on the site. wtf

 

[New Poster]

Bro, we are essentially in agreement. Testing the waters and looking for eye contact isn't cold approaching, what you are describing is what I described in the post that led to you calling it the dumbest post on the site. wtf

No, I'm not talking "looking" for eye contact. I mean, initiating and holding eye contact. They might be looking away at first, but when they turn to look at you, keep staring. See how they react when the know you were staring.

 

[Staceymaxxing]

Bro, we are essentially in agreement. Testing the waters and looking for eye contact isn't cold approaching, what you are describing is what I described in the post that led to you calling it the dumbest post on the site. wtf

Hahaha definition issue of "Cold approach" but I said both of y'all agreed mostly

 

[Deleted member 29796]

No, I'm talking "looking" for eye contact. I mean, initiating and holding eye contact. They might be looking away at first, but when they turn to look at you, keep staring. See how they react when the know you were staring.

Yes, I AGREE. That's not cold approaching, cold approaching is you seeing someone and just walking up to them, no indicators, no feeling out.

WE HAVE ALWAYS AGREED

 

[New Poster]

Yes, I AGREE. That's not cold approaching, cold approaching is you seeing someone and just walking up to them, no indicators, no feeling out.

WE HAVE ALWAYS AGREED

That's kind of a retarded definition of cold approach, but okay. The difference between our positions, though, is that you want to wait for iois from girls, and I'm saying you should ioi first.

 

[Deleted member 29796]

That's kind of a retarded definition of cold approach, but okay. The difference between our positions, though, is that you want to wait for iois from girls, and I'm saying you should ioi first.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL Die.

 

[Deleted member 29796]

If walking up to random women without any signs from them isn't cold approaching, what is it then? Hard approaching? Nightmare difficulty approaching? Hot approaching?


I'm fucking with you, you are dumb as hell, but I'm dropping it here.

 

[Deleted member 26633]

good. you should have been arrested too.

 

[New Poster]

If walking up to random women without any signs from them isn't cold approaching, what is it then? Hard approaching? Nightmare difficulty approaching? Hot approaching?


I'm fucking with you, you are dumb as hell, but I'm dropping it here.

I don't know what to tell you bro. If I hold eye contact with a stranger and then approach her, most people consider that a cold approach. I don't know what planet you live on where it only counts as cold approach if the other person completely doesn't notice you.

 

[Staceymaxxing]

That's kind of a retarded definition of cold approach, but okay. The difference between our positions, though, is that you want to wait for iois from girls, and I'm saying you should ioi first.

Cold approach" is defined as when you walk up to a woman who is a complete stranger, with whom you have no social ties and, thus, no social "trust" factor built in. She may have given you signs of interest already or not; and she may have seen you with social proof or preselection already or not.
Copied.


You are right with your definition. I had to check sales definition of cold leads vs warm lead as well. Warm already knows you to some capacity/acquaintance/social circle/word of mouth.

Cold approach has to involve a total stranger

Getting ioi passively or actively initiating ioi doesn't change the essence of it being a cold approach and makes the definition less meaningful
Cold = stranger

 

[Deleted member 29796]

Cold approach" is defined as when you walk up to a woman who is a complete stranger, with whom you have no social ties and, thus, no social "trust" factor built in. She may have given you signs of interest already or not; and she may have seen you with social proof or preselection already or not.
Copied.


You are right with your definition. I had to check sales definition of cold leads vs warm lead as well. Warm already knows you to some capacity/acquaintance/social circle/word of mouth.

Cold approach has to involve a total stranger

Getting ioi passively or actively initiating ioi doesn't change the essence of it being a cold approach and makes the definition less meaningful
Cold = stranger

Definitions are irrelevant, this isn't cope, put simply "definition fallacy".


I feel as though, if a women shows interests, that's the fucking win. So deal with this argument: Does an IOI increase the chance of success with an approach? And would walking up to a woman without any IOI decrease the chance of success with an approach?

The obvious answer is that it will increase the chance of success with an IOI, and decrease without an IOI. So if I approach without an IOI, what is it called? See, we don't have a word for that. So if you kick me out of using "cold approach" to describe it, we have to agree to create another word. I simply say, an approach with an IOI isn't a cold approach due to the INDICATOR, she has indicated interest, it's the callsign.

I can @ some logic bros, I think my position sound as fuck here. And in my explanation, you can see why definitions don't matter, we use definitions to describe general usage, so, you can say it's commonly said that way, sure, but to deny my definition, it's treason.

Assuming you are denying my definition though.