How do we even know if our beliefs are really true?

[wishIwasSalludon]

Given the capacity humans have to delude
Themselves

In Philosophy there’s this idea called qualia, which is essentially our subjective perception of the world.

Take for instance my philosophical views and values which I believe to be derived rationally at the same time have been majorly impacted by my life experiences.

For example I don’t think I would value self creation so much if it weren’t for the fact that I’ve been lonely my whole life.

I could’ve used religion as an example but that’s low hanging fruit

I feel like many beliefs we have could actually just be our minds fooling ourselves.

Thoughts?

Tagging high iq people

@imontheloose @chadbeingmade @Mainlander @Jonasㅤㅤ

 

[wishIwasSalludon]

0

 

[wishIwasSalludon]

Dnrd

 

[Doryphoros]

Yeah we have no real beliefs and no free will, what’s next

 

[korne]

you can't know if it's really true

 

[nobodylovesme]

I don't think we can ever know, or even know is there one true belief. We are just too subjective beings.

I think our "beliefs" are just a reflections of our internal axioms. These axioms get loaded in by life experience, or are just hard coded biological constraints. They can change, there will be new ones, some which don't line up together. I think that creates some chaos, and why people change their minds so often.

But this axiomatic system isn't stable, it isn't active all the time, some of it is. That's why emotions can make some axioms pop up more, and suppress others. It's fluid type structure I would say. And most people don't build the beliefs from the axioms, they just pick something they hear, as it "clicks" internally with the structure. But emotion and rhetorical ability can "manipulate" it a bunch, IMO

 

[imontheloose]

Well, we fool ourselves all the time. You’d think you’d feel disgust out of a natural urge to survive, but it doesn’t explain vicarious disgust. Now, sure that isn’t a perfect heuristic but it’s a pretty good indicator we have just manipulated ourselves.

 

[neurosis]

Yeah we have no real beliefs and no free will

Thinking you don't have free will is a real belief though

 

[neurosis]

There's no such thing as truth or having access to the truth, so there's no such thing as a 'wrong' belief

No, this doesn't imply the existence of a 'correct' belief either

 

[McSkziofren]

Our beliefs are good most of the time – the philippines is good

 

[MiserableMan]

Death is the only answer or maybe not, we are all just speculating otherwise, no one knows the exact truth, people just convince themselves that they know the truth and try to force it down other people throat as well.

 

[keife]

Given the capacity humans have to delude
Themselves

In Philosophy there’s this idea called qualia, which is essentially our subjective perception of the world.

Take for instance my philosophical views and values which I believe to be derived rationally at the same time have been majorly impacted by my life experiences.

For example I don’t think I would value self creation so much if it weren’t for the fact that I’ve been lonely my whole life.

I could’ve used religion as an example but that’s low hanging fruit

I feel like many beliefs we have could actually just be our minds fooling ourselves.

Thoughts?

Tagging high iq people

@imontheloose @chadbeingmade @Mainlander @Jonasㅤㅤ

@PrinceLuenLeoncur

 

[imontheloose]

There's no such thing as truth or having access to the truth, so there's no such thing as a 'wrong' belief

No, this doesn't imply the existence of a 'correct' belief either

How does truth not exist? Logic is as objective as you can get. Or are you just saying this with regard to moral realism?

 

[Copercel]

Given the capacity humans have to delude
Themselves

In Philosophy there’s this idea called qualia, which is essentially our subjective perception of the world.

Take for instance my philosophical views and values which I believe to be derived rationally at the same time have been majorly impacted by my life experiences.

For example I don’t think I would value self creation so much if it weren’t for the fact that I’ve been lonely my whole life.

I could’ve used religion as an example but that’s low hanging fruit

I feel like many beliefs we have could actually just be our minds fooling ourselves.

Thoughts?

Tagging high iq people

@imontheloose @chadbeingmade @Mainlander @Jonasㅤㅤ

We cant know… that’s what makes debating about religion and other beliefs kinda pointless.

You cant know anything, just don’t fall to the IQ trap and believe in god.

 

[neurosis]

How does truth not exist?

Truth in the sense of our (human) perception of the truth - An objective right and wrong, not just in terms of moral realism. Epistemological basic definition of truth = correct; but all humans live an entirely subjective existence so anything that is the product of a subjective reality (a so called, objective opinion based on 'logic'), can only be subjective and therefore not true.

 

[PrinceLuenLeoncur]

@PrinceLuenLeoncur

Yeah in a nutshell he’s asking for epistemic certitude…

This is impossible and leads to schitzophrwmia this is what Rene Descartes struggled with and the reality is you don’t need 100% knowledge of everything all you need is an belief, and an justification of that belief that is coherent and not self isolatory/contradictory from there you can branch out and your belief or proposition is thefore reliable because the justification is so.


Unfortunately most people have shit justifications for shit and thus their belief is irrational.


Also OP won’t tag me because he knows I’ll make him look like an idiot again and humiliate his rediculous beliefs like I always do every time so he like all Gaytheists and Mohammedens fear me here

 

[nobodylovesme]

Yeah in a nutshell he’s asking for epistemic certitude…

This is impossible and leads to schitzophrwmia this is what Rene Descartes struggled with and the reality is you don’t need 100% knowledge of everything all you need is an belief, and an justification of that belief that is coherent and not self isolatory/contradictory from there you can branch out and your belief or proposition is thefore reliable because the justification is so.


Unfortunately most people have shit justifications for shit and thus their belief is irrational.


Also OP won’t tag me because he knows I’ll make him look like an idiot again and humiliate his rediculous beliefs like I always do every time so he like all Gaytheists and Mohammedens fear me here

You're a prime example of a person suffering with the "Cognitive Stockholm Syndrome." I'm sorry to tell you but your conclusion to the "truth" isn't rational. As I pointed out in a another thread, sadly it shields you from too much, so you cling to it like someone with their abusive ex.

But really this applies to most "beliefs," people need some chains or nothing really makes sense. Religious people just make the chains more obvious.

Love the ciricular arguments you make tho

 

[registerfasterusing]

Water

 

[imontheloose]

Truth in the sense of our (human) perception of the truth - An objective right and wrong, not just in terms of moral realism. Epistemological basic definition of truth = correct; but all humans live an entirely subjective existence so anything that is the product of a subjective reality (a so called, objective opinion based on 'logic'), can only be subjective and therefore not true.

So 1+1=2 is not true? It’s subjective. So mathematics as a whole is merely subjective? True=False could technically be a correct statement then?

 

[truthhurts]

mixture of Socrates and Hermes entered the chat

 

[neurosis]

So 1+1=2 is not true?

Yep, half right however.

It's neither correct (true) or wrong (not true) - It's a subjective description, Math being a descriptive language no different to English or German afterall.

True=False could technically be a correct statement then?

Based on my axioms, nothing can ever be technically correct

 

[imontheloose]

Yep, half right however.

It's neither correct (true) or wrong (not true) - It's a subjective description, Math being a descriptive language no different to English or German afterall.

Based on my axioms, nothing can ever be technically correct

Mathematics is tautology, not language. We merely describe logic with symbols. They are representative and by virtue of their characteristics, it’s true. There’s a famous proverb that all logical propositions can be reduced down to mere tautology or a proof via contradiction. Now, sure you can use induction and whatnot, but that is a tautological proof.

Mathematics is totally different descriptively to language. I have no idea how you’ve came up with this. Seems rather absurd.

Nothing being totally correct including mere logic, even if you want to say your surroundings are fake because your senses may be hijacked, is ludicrous for lack of a better term.

 

[neurosis]

tautology, not language

Tautology is just a subset of language

We merely describe logic with symbols. They are representative and by virtue of their characteristics

You've described language here

ie in the case where 1+1 != 2. When 1 raindrop combines with another (1) raindrop it creates ... 1 raindrop (in most, if not all cases). In order for the statement 1 + 1 =2 to be tautological, then in every ontological case 1 + 1 must equate to 2, however it doesn't. And there are many other obvious flaws in math (and basic arithmetic for that matter), thus really making math no different to a descriptive (and most importantly, subjective) language.

 

[nobodylovesme]

Mathematics is tautology, not language. We merely describe logic with symbols. They are representative and by virtue of their characteristics, it’s true. There’s a famous proverb that all logical propositions can be reduced down to mere tautology or a proof via contradiction. Now, sure you can use induction and whatnot, but that is a tautological proof.

Mathematics is totally different descriptively to language. I have no idea how you’ve came up with this. Seems rather absurd.

Nothing being totally correct including mere logic, even if you want to say your surroundings are fake because your senses may be hijacked, is ludicrous for lack of a better term.

I agree that logic and mathematics can clearly prove formal truths. But the idea that all of mathematics reduces to tautology isn't correct, Gödel showed otherwise. Might sound nitpicky, but it's an important distinction. Still, I agree with the general direction of your point

 

[Deleted member 111512]

Given the capacity humans have to delude
Themselves

In Philosophy there’s this idea called qualia, which is essentially our subjective perception of the world.

Take for instance my philosophical views and values which I believe to be derived rationally at the same time have been majorly impacted by my life experiences.

For example I don’t think I would value self creation so much if it weren’t for the fact that I’ve been lonely my whole life.

I could’ve used religion as an example but that’s low hanging fruit

I feel like many beliefs we have could actually just be our minds fooling ourselves.

Thoughts?

Tagging high iq people

@imontheloose @chadbeingmade @Mainlander @Jonasㅤㅤ

 

[Copercel]

View attachment 3860243
View attachment 3860247

You gif-mog the whole forum tbh.

 

[neurosis]

Nothing being totally correct including mere logic, even if you want to say your surroundings are fake because your senses may be hijacked, is ludicrous for lack of a better term.

No, it's logical and totally correct (lol)

It's impossible to produce an objective (true/not true) output with a subjective input (human brain) - It's really that simple.

Math being the product of a subjective interface (the human brain) -> It can only produce subjective descriptions.

But the idea that all of mathematics reduces to tautology isn't correct, Gödel showed otherwise

 

[Deleted member 111512]

You gif-mog the whole forum tbh.

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Read every single molecule tho, it's worth it, and don't forget to rep and bump

 

[nobodylovesme]

No, it's logical and totally correct (lol)

It's impossible to produce an objective (true/not true) output with a subjective input (human brain) - It's really that simple.

Math being the product of a subjective interface (the human brain) -> It can only produce subjective descriptions.

This is just ignorance. You clearly can.

 

[neurosis]

This is just ignorance. You clearly can.

Your entire interface of reality is subjective, how can you be sure of that literally anything is objective (true/not true) when you only have your objectively subjective axiom (brain/consciousness) to base anything 'objective' on - It's such a simple paradox yet math believers think otherwise

 

[nobodylovesme]

Your entire interface of reality is subjective, how can you be sure of that literally anything is objective (true/not true) when you only have your objectively subjective axiom (brain/consciousness) to base anything 'objective' on - It's such a simple paradox yet math believers think otherwise

Yes technically true, but when the "axioms" are that simple and we dont take them as truth. There's nothing to claim. Even your statement you said, makes no sense at that point.

 

[wishIwasSalludon]

I don't think we can ever know, or even know is there one true belief. We are just too subjective beings.

I think our "beliefs" are just a reflections of our internal axioms. These axioms get loaded in by life experience, or are just hard coded biological constraints. They can change, there will be new ones, some which don't line up together. I think that creates some chaos, and why people change their minds so often.

But this axiomatic system isn't stable, it isn't active all the time, some of it is. That's why emotions can make some axioms pop up more, and suppress others. It's fluid type structure I would say. And most people don't build the beliefs from the axioms, they just pick something they hear, as it "clicks" internally with the structure. But emotion and rhetorical ability can "manipulate" it a bunch, IMO

Well, we fool ourselves all the time. You’d think you’d feel disgust out of a natural urge to survive, but it doesn’t explain vicarious disgust. Now, sure that isn’t a perfect heuristic but it’s a pretty good indicator we have just manipulated ourselves.

this problem is one thats disturbed me so much

its even more disturbing than the problem of nihilism

also fuck looksmax for not giving me notifs for these high iq replies

 

[neurosis]

Even your statement you said, makes no sense at that point.

That's the point.

 

[wishIwasSalludon]

Also OP won’t tag me because he knows I’ll make him look like an idiot again and humiliate his rediculous beliefs like I always do every time so he like all Gaytheists and Mohammedens fear me here

I didn’t tag you because you’re not the first person who comes to mind when I think high iq

Although you did give a interesting answer

 

[PrinceLuenLeoncur]

I didn’t tag you because you’re not the first person who comes to mind when I think high iq

Although you did give a interesting answer

I’m the only user on this site that can answer this question without looking like an idiot and you and I both know it.

Regardless of how you feel about me the fact remains

 

[Pento]

Given the capacity humans have to delude
Themselves

In Philosophy there’s this idea called qualia, which is essentially our subjective perception of the world.

Take for instance my philosophical views and values which I believe to be derived rationally at the same time have been majorly impacted by my life experiences.

For example I don’t think I would value self creation so much if it weren’t for the fact that I’ve been lonely my whole life.

I could’ve used religion as an example but that’s low hanging fruit

I feel like many beliefs we have could actually just be our minds fooling ourselves.

Thoughts?

Tagging high iq people

@imontheloose @chadbeingmade @Mainlander @Jonasㅤㅤ

It’s usually wrong.
To grow is to realize you were wrong and the past and to continue evolving your mind.

 

[nobodylovesme]

That's the point.

It really isn't tho. It's essentily saying nothing.

I'll explain 1 time

Based on my axioms, nothing can ever be technically correct

You take an axiom, to show nothing can be techinically correct.

If you think for a second, you should realise there is BIG contradiction here.

You can't have an axiom to prove there is no axioms. Fucking monkey

 

[neurosis]

If you think for a second, you should realise there is BIG contradiction here.

Again, that's the point.

 

[nobodylovesme]

Again, that's the point.

This is like saying "All sentences are false", which would include that very sentence. So no, you don't have a point

 

[neurosis]

This is like saying "All sentences are false", which would include that very sentence. So no, you don't have a point

It's not. It's more like saying "All sentences are neither true or false".

So no, you don't have a point

That is still, in fact, the point.

 

[nobodylovesme]

It's not. It's more like saying "All sentences are neither true or false".

That is still, in fact, the point.

Well you can be the ultimate skeptic, but do you really think this is a good position to hold? Do you hold it just so you can disagree with everything, and you cannot prove nor disprove nor say anything

 

[neurosis]

Well you can be the ultimate skeptic, but do you really think this is a good position to hold? Do you hold it just so you can disagree with everything, and you cannot prove nor disprove nor say anything

Nope. I just think it's the most logical, correct and truthful position to hold.

 

[nobodylovesme]

Nope. I just think it's the most logical, correct and truthful position to hold.

Do you understand how ironic that statement is?

 

[neurosis]

Do you understand how ironic that statement is?

That's the point.

 

[nobodylovesme]

That's the point.

Sure, but why even discuss about stuff? What do you gain from that?

 

[neurosis]

What do you gain from that?

Nothing, it's just a side effect of being a ruthless gladiator in the realm of ideas.

 

[neurosis]

Irony intended btw

 

[shallowuser721]

Islam is true

 

[chadhamed]

Given the capacity humans have to delude
Themselves

In Philosophy there’s this idea called qualia, which is essentially our subjective perception of the world.

Take for instance my philosophical views and values which I believe to be derived rationally at the same time have been majorly impacted by my life experiences.

For example I don’t think I would value self creation so much if it weren’t for the fact that I’ve been lonely my whole life.

I could’ve used religion as an example but that’s low hanging fruit

I feel like many beliefs we have could actually just be our minds fooling ourselves.

Thoughts?

Tagging high iq people

@imontheloose @chadbeingmade @Mainlander @Jonasㅤㅤ

MAn made beliefs

 

[wishIwasSalludon]

Islam is true

No