how much does ramus length increase with every 1 degree of CCW?

[bobsmith03]

So lets say I happen to reverse my downward growth and fully grown out mandible/maxilla.

how many mm would the ramus gain for every 1 degree CCW rotation? I know that in proper facial development the ramus goes down and rotates.

My occlusal plane is 13 degrees, I heard ideal is somewhere around 3-5 deg. So in other words how much would my 3cm ramus lengthen by If I got a 10 degrees of CCW on my maxilla and mandible. I'm going to use this to mimic a naturally rotated ramus/mandible by getting the correct jaw implants, chin projection etc.

My maxilla is fine imo the only real issue I see with my maxila is the upper maxilla is bad, and my nose is a little sloped, im sure bimax can solve the nose part but its too hardcore for such a small issue

Anyone know pls let me know

 

[bobsmith03]

asked chat gpt and googled but got no results

 

[reptiles]

So lets say I happen to reverse my downward growth and fully grown out mandible/maxilla.

how many mm would the ramus gain for every 1 degree CCW rotation? I know that in proper facial development the ramus goes down and rotates.
View attachment 2477180View attachment 2477181
My occlusal plane is 13 degrees, I heard ideal is somewhere around 3-5 deg. So in other words how much would my 3cm ramus lengthen by If I got a 10 degrees of CCW on my maxilla and mandible. I'm going to use this to mimic a naturally rotated ramus/mandible by getting the correct jaw implants, chin projection etc.

My maxilla is fine imo the only real issue I see with my maxila is the upper maxilla is bad, and my nose is a little sloped, im sure bimax can solve the nose part but its too hardcore for such a small issue

Anyone know pls let me know

I wonder how mm you would need to get a look like this oviously it looks uncanny cause I suck at these morphs but he looks a lot better than before

 

[anticel]

So lets say I happen to reverse my downward growth and fully grown out mandible/maxilla.

how many mm would the ramus gain for every 1 degree CCW rotation? I know that in proper facial development the ramus goes down and rotates.
View attachment 2477180View attachment 2477181
My occlusal plane is 13 degrees, I heard ideal is somewhere around 3-5 deg. So in other words how much would my 3cm ramus lengthen by If I got a 10 degrees of CCW on my maxilla and mandible. I'm going to use this to mimic a naturally rotated ramus/mandible by getting the correct jaw implants, chin projection etc.

My maxilla is fine imo the only real issue I see with my maxila is the upper maxilla is bad, and my nose is a little sloped, im sure bimax can solve the nose part but its too hardcore for such a small issue

Anyone know pls let me know

how do you plan to reverse it? ideal is 0-3 imo with 4-5 being alright as well

 

[Deleted member 31072]

Just dickmaxx instead

 

[bobsmith03]

how do you plan to reverse it? ideal is 0-3 imo with 4-5 being alright as well

well im gonna do jaw implants + genio to fraud a forward grown mandible. I don't think 13 deg occlusal plane is that bad tbh. I haven't got my scans yet so that number could be different. But Im like 8mm off chin projection to fit my ideal side profile.

idk what 8mm translates too. but i estimated that 1 deg of CCW gives me just under 1mm of chin projection.

 

[bobsmith03]

how do you plan to reverse it? ideal is 0-3 imo with 4-5 being alright as well

does occlusal plane translate to mandible to floor angle? because my mandible to floor is 25-30deg but my occlusal plane is 13 deg.

Someone like jordan barret who has short ramus like me has mandible to floor of like 10-15deg, so he probably has a 0 deg occlusal plane.

 

[bobsmith03]

View attachment 2477194

View attachment 2477195

I wonder how mm you would need to get a look like this oviously it looks uncanny cause I suck at these morphs but he looks a lot better than before

I think you should consider jaw surgery. that looks like a 2cm difference.

 

[reptiles]

I think you should consider jaw surgery. that looks like a 2cm difference.

That's not me but some other guy but I would like to see if there are any objective ways of measuring how many mm a morph might entail webceph is a good start but again it's not my face so it's useless

 

[bobsmith03]

That's not me but some other guy but I would like to see if there are any objective ways of measuring how many mm a morph might entail webceph is a good start but again it's not my face so it's useless

for a side morph you can take a picture with a ruler, then use the computer to measure it. or you can measure ur philtrum in real life, and see how many pixels it translates to.

 

[reptiles]

for a side morph you can take a picture with a ruler, then use the computer to measure it. or you can measure ur philtrum in real life, and see how many pixels it translates to.

how do you work backwards from pixels to get real mm by mm differences I did a morph like this but I can't know how many MM I advaced in the morph 2cm though does seem accurate

I took him from the cuck skull

to the chad skull

This is also the rope tier part do surgeons even do advancements of this extreme levels are almost like your builiding a new face

 

[bobsmith03]

how do you work backwards from pixels to get real mm by mm differences I did a morph like this but I can't know how many MM I advaced in the morph 2cm though does seem accurate

View attachment 2477232View attachment 2477233

I took him from the cuck skull

View attachment 2477236

to the chad skull

View attachment 2477237


This is also the rope tier part do surgeons even do advancements of this extreme levels are almost like your builiding a new face

yeah they do. You can try measure out ur nose length from nasion to tip, lets say its 50mm, see how many pixels that corresponds too and then use it to measure how much projection.

with genio you can get up to 1cm, other that u need bsso. it also looks like with this morph it will need a bimax CCW, genio, implants for browridge

 

[anticel]

well im gonna do jaw implants + genio to fraud a forward grown mandible. I don't think 13 deg occlusal plane is that bad tbh. I haven't got my scans yet so that number could be different. But Im like 8mm off chin projection to fit my ideal side profile.

idk what 8mm translates too. but i estimated that 1 deg of CCW gives me just under 1mm of chin projection.

no bimax? 13 sounds like it needs bimax

 

[bobsmith03]

no bimax? 13 sounds like it needs bimax

Well the thing is I used my side profile smile to estimate it lol. My mandible to floor is 25 degrees. I’m gonna get a cbct scan soon.

But do you think if it’s 13 degrees I should consider it? 13 degrees doesn’t seem that much.

However if there is a way to both fix my jaw asymmetries, uneven ramus length, fix chin projection I’ll probably consider because then I don’t have to get genio/jaw implants

 

[anticel]

Well the thing is I used my side profile smile to estimate it lol. My mandible to floor is 25 degrees. I’m gonna get a cbct scan soon.

But do you think if it’s 13 degrees I should consider it? 13 degrees doesn’t seem that much.

However if there is a way to both fix my jaw asymmetries, uneven ramus length, fix chin projection I’ll probably consider because then I don’t have to get genio/jaw implants

u can dm me but yeah bimax could help to fix that

 

[Deleted member 32669]

@thecel

 

[DelonLover1999]

I don't think ccw can have an impact on ramus length. The actual gonion isn't even touched in the surgery. Maybe it can make it seem more protrusive, because of the submental skin being pulled tighter, but that's about it.

Bimax, as effective as it is, cannot achieve the same look that you would've had with ideal development. Some things are lost in the growth process that pretty much can't be reversed.

 

[bobsmith03]

I don't think ccw can have an impact on ramus length. The actual gonion isn't even touched in the surgery. Maybe it can make it seem more protrusive, because of the submental skin being pulled tighter, but that's about it.

Bimax, as effective as it is, cannot achieve the same look that you would've had with ideal development. Some things are lost in the growth process that pretty much can't be reversed.

so no amount of surgeries will reverse years of not mewing, chewing etc?

how about bimax ccw then implants

 

[DelonLover1999]

so no amount of surgeries will reverse years of not mewing, chewing etc?

how about bimax ccw then implants

it could get you very close, if the planning is really solid

 

[Deleted member 19766]

it could get you very close, if the planning is really solid

what is everything you'd need to get as close as physically possible

 

[DelonLover1999]

what is everything you'd need to get as close as physically possible

depends on the case

but usually bimax + implants (either for the mandible or the midface)

 

[greycel]

depends on the case

but usually bimax + implants (either for the mandible or the midface)

What if you have a projected “lower maxilla”, recessed “upper maxilla” (slight paranasal depression, slight crooked nose, recessed orbitals and zygos), good ramus (gonions below lip level), inward/straight gonions, concave small philtrum, upper lip larger than lower slightly (that protrudes a tiny bit like Sean o pry/ Barrett). In this scenario should I just go for inframalar implant with fat graft and rhino. No need to alter paranasal area right? As results look uncanny when someone talks or laughs or smiles. Also not all forward growth is equal ( very rare models have a fully forward grown face). The zygomatic bone is independent to the maxilla so it can protrude anteriorly more like Kabib and still look “normal” if not gone overboard (since I don’t want to touch the paranasal).

My question is, would this forward grown maxilla and zygos now work with a jaw that has good ramus but also is downwards grown? Because i would have a typical warrior skull, but warrior skulls have shorter chins due to gonial angle close to 90 degrees.

 

[DelonLover1999]

What if you have a projected “lower maxilla”, recessed “upper maxilla” (slight paranasal depression, slight crooked nose, recessed orbitals and zygos), good ramus (gonions below lip level), inward/straight gonions, concave small philtrum, upper lip larger than lower slightly (that protrudes a tiny bit like Sean o pry/ Barrett). In this scenario should I just go for inframalar implant with fat graft and rhino. No need to alter paranasal area right? As results look uncanny when someone talks or laughs or smiles. Also not all forward growth is equal ( very rare models have a fully forward grown face). The zygomatic bone is independent to the maxilla so it can protrude anteriorly more like Kabib and still look “normal” if not gone overboard (since I don’t want to touch the paranasal).

My question is, would this forward grown maxilla and zygos now work with a jaw that has good ramus but also is downwards grown? Because i would have a typical warrior skull, but warrior skulls have shorter chins due to gonial angle close to 90 degrees.

It all depends

Need pics to assess better

 

[Deleted member 38639]

does occlusal plane translate to mandible to floor angle? because my mandible to floor is 25-30deg but my occlusal plane is 13 deg.

Someone like jordan barret who has short ramus like me has mandible to floor of like 10-15deg, so he probably has a 0 deg occlusal plane.

You're right, that occlusal plane angle is not that bad. I have nearly the same occlusal plane angle as you and my ortho said I was borderline recessed. Also, I'm pretty sure CCW rotation doesn't change the length of the ramus. You'd need something like an inverted L osteotomy or ramus distraction, which is extremely hard to find unless you're syndromic. Best to cope with implants, tbh

 

[bobsmith03]

You're right, that occlusal plane angle is not that bad. I have nearly the same occlusal plane angle as you and my ortho said I was borderline recessed. Also, I'm pretty sure CCW rotation doesn't change the length of the ramus. You'd need something like an inverted L osteotomy or ramus distraction, which is extremely hard to find unless you're syndromic. Best to cope with implants, tbh

hmm yeah i would need to think. Im not too bothered about short ramus, just aslong as the manidble to floor is in ideal range 10-15deg.

 

[Deleted member 46404]

It doesn't change ramus length.

 

[Deleted member 38639]

hmm yeah i would need to think. Im not too bothered about short ramus, just aslong as the manidble to floor is in ideal range 10-15deg.

A short ramus isn't really a failo if you have good facial harmony. Take Timothy Chalamet for example. His ramus is on the shorter side, but he still looks great because of his good gonial angle/well developed cheekbones and lower third.

 

[Pay]

I mewed and gained 20 cm

 

[bobsmith03]

A short ramus isn't really a failo if you have good facial harmony. Take Timothy Chalamet for example. His ramus is on the shorter side, but he still looks great because of his good gonial angle/well developed cheekbones and lower third.

yeah but im just downgrown slightly + inward gonions so jawline isnt visible. but im 18% bodyfat so we shall see.
I might look into jaw angle implants and also extend ramus but it might fuck up my harmony