Tired of being a worthless acnecel? This quick phase by phase article serves as the easy, fast, and true fix for acnecels with severe acne who want to eviscerate it for good -
PHASE BY PHASE (NO BULLSHIT) GUIDE/TIMELINE TO EVISCERATE ACNE FOR GOOD:
Phase 1: High dose isotretinoin (reach cumulative dose)
Don't waste time with conservative treatments. Hop on a strong isotretinoin course (0.8-1mg/per kg of body weight daily) to reach the cumulative dose needed for your weight as soon as possible (120mg to 150mg per kg of bodyweight). This is the "magic number" used by dermatologists when prescribing a course of accutane in severe cases (DO NOT MICRODOSE TO START). The reason you do not want to microdose is because you are increasing the chances of scarring by taking treatment "low and slow." The faster you can clear your acne, the less chance you will have to deal with life changing scarring later. I am currently a few months into this phase, and I can tell you that I've experienced no side effects apart from dryness from the medication and a modest increase in my triglycerides. I would advise that you do this under the supervision of a dermatologist because of the effects on liver health (or just buy the drugs from India, and calculate the dosing yourself). This can clear you up in as little as four months. Be prepared to deal with purging in the initial stages of treatment (month 1-2).
Phase 2: BEFORE the isotretinoin course is finished, Introduce androgen suppression:
Isotretinoin is crucial, because it is essentially putting out the flame of acne by addressing - follicular keratization, inflammation, acne bacteria (by starving them), BUT, MOST IMPORTANTLY, SHRINKING AND INDUCING CELL DEATH TO THE SEBACEOUS GLANDS. In essence, isotretinoin is nuking your sebaceous glands.
The issue is that as as soon as the drug leaves your system, your sebaceous glands will eventually recover (reduced but still return). This is why some people end up doing another strong course of accutane later on in life (jesters). To ensure permanent remission, YOU MUST stop the fuel component of acne (aka your hormones).
DHT, is by far the worst hormone in your body, as it is not only responsible for the vast majority of male pattern baldness cases, it also acts as a gas pedal for the sebaceous glands. DHT - increases sebum production, stimulates gland growth, and enhances the inflammatory response. The idea with starting Dutasteride BEFORE you finish your accutane course is to kick the sebaceous glands while they are already down. DUT is a 5-alpha-reductase inhibitor. 5-alpha-reductase is the enzyme responsible for converting test to dht. There are two isoforms in humans, and Dutasteride blocks both. Drastically reducing androgen signaling to the sebaceous glands - the reason why a lot of teenagers get smashed with acne. I recommend you begin your Dutasteride use close to finishing your course (1-2 months before) to reduce the strain on your liver.
Accutane nukes the sebaceous glands, Dutasteride stops the hormone that tells them to recover.
ALTERNATIVES IF YOU DON'T FUCK WITH THE POTENTIAL SIDE EFFECTS OF DUT:
Option 1: If you don't want to use oral Dutasteride, you can use a topical anti-androgen like clascoterone (brand name Winlevi) to get a more local effect. Same idea, just weaker. The good thing about Winlevi is that it is mild on the skin, and not nearly as irritating as other actives commonly used in skincare. It also does not increase photo sensitivity, so you could take it while on accutane or after you have just finished your course (1 week after your last dose at latest), providing that you are using a non-irritating and non comodgenic skincare routine (will cover that later on in the thread).
Option 2: You could also use topical Dutasteride, however, this medication is much harder to obtain. Most that I have seen are combination creams, liquids, or foams used for hair loss as part of a compounding formula (includes minoxidil, tretinoin, etc). Finding a standalone cream is very difficult. If you can get your hands on this though, it is a great alternative to using systemic Dutasteride. Same principle as the Winlevi cream, but more effective.
Phase 3: 4–6 week skin recovery
Just keep taking dutasteride or a topical anti-androgen. Because you just fried your skin, you need some time to heal up before starting on other treatments. during this time, make sure to keep taking your medication and stick to a calm, hydrating skin care routine.
Phase 4: Retinoid ladder for long-term maintenance
After your skin had a second to breathe, begin adding in a prescription strength topical retinoid. Start with Tretinoin 0.025% a few nights per week. after about a month, increase the strength to 0.05%. Once you can tolerate that well, move on to 0.1% strength and so on. The goal is to at least hit Tretinoin 0.1% strength and use that nightly. Eventually, you may even be able to tolerate the strongest and most effective topical retinoids (tazarotene in high doses), but consistency and your tolerance is key. Using Tretinoin 0.05% nightly is better than using the stronger 0.1% only a few nights per week.
This is the beginning of the maintenance phase, where you use prescription strength topical retinoids on top of Dutasteride to maintain the results of your intense accutane course and let your skin barrier heal at the same time. If you are going down the Winlevi route, apply Winlevi in the morning, Retinoid in the evening. NEVER PUT ON A TOPICAL ANTI-ANDROGEN AND RETINOID AT THE SAME TIME.
Why topical retinoids are key for phase 4 (mogs microdosed accutane for collagen/skin remodeling for acne scars):
Looksmaxxing jesters, like testicular, have publicly said that micro-dosed accutane is better for collagen and anti aging than prescription topicals because it is systemic. This couldn't be further from the truth: Collagen production is triggered when retinoic acid binds to Retnoic acid receptors (RAR) in the skin. Tretinoin is like the biological key that fits the receptor perfectly because it IS a all trans retnoic acid. It directly tells your DNA to produce type 1 and 3 collagen. isotretinoin (13-cis-retnoic-acid) is like the bent cousin that doesn't fit into the receptors that well. Isotretinoin's main function is the shrinking of the sebaceous glands, and inducing cell death in sebaceous glands. When you take a pill, the medication has to travel through your entire system. By the time its been processed by your liver and reaches the dermis of your skin, the concentration is much lower than what you’d get from a direct topical application. Collagen is a secondary mechanism and less potent than the direct Retnoic acid application.
ACCUTANE = THE BEST for acne
TRETINOIN/TAZAROTENE = THE BEST for collagen/skin remodeling (anti-aging)
(optional) Phase 5: scar remodeling
This is the fluid part of the protocol. You may introduce Lazer treatments (Abiative lazers) or micro-needling to address any scarring that may have occurred as a result of your severe acne, or to stimulate even more collagen and make your skin more smooth. its up to you. Topical retinoids, using the retinoid ladder method, should cover you unless you are just a subhuman acne scar freak. (note): I recommend doing micro-needling for addressing acne scars as it is the cheapest option and highly effective, but again, it's up to you.
Phase 6: Lifelong maintenance protocol
If you went down the DUT route - The chances of you seeing permanent remission with this plan are very high. YOU WILL NOT NEED a second course of strong accutane. In phase 6, its just about staying on the retinoid + DUT combo long term. This is a life long commitment you must make.
if you went down the Winlevi route/topical DUT - after about 2-3 years, I would recommend you hop on a course of micro dosed accutane to shut down any remaining sebaceous gland activity. The initial evisceration should be more than enough, but because this route is notably weaker than using a systemic drug like DUT, I would advise you to do ONE FINAL course of MICRODOSED accutane (15mg at most. ideally 5-10mg daily). If you were to microdose accutane in a few years, pause the topical retinoid application, but continue applying the topical anti-androgen every morning.
My promise - just doing the first two methods will almost guarantee remission of your acne in as little as four months. the rest of the phases are just about maintenance, addressing scarring, and preventing acne from ever coming back.
SUPPLEMENT RECOMMENDATIONS (extra, not needed):
1. Naturalis Triple Strength UltraEPA™ EPA 1000mg - fantastic for lowering triglycerides during high dose accutane/protecting liver and heart health. take 1-2 pills daily with a fatty meal w/your accutane pills
2. Second gen anti-histamine (cetirizine hydrochloride) - to help control your skin's inflammation, itching, and flares (acne). get 10mg strength and take once daily
3. Dapsone gel 7.5% - Prescription antibiotic topical gel. worked great for me in reducing inflammation and redness during purging phase of accutane without irritation or dryness. (DO NOT COMBINE THIS WITH SOME POTENT ACTIVE. JUST USE THIS ONCE DAILY ON ITS OWN).
4. VItamin d3 + k2 (2000iu daily for Caucasians) - to cover needs daily needs while following sun precautions (will address in sun precautions section). take 1 pill daily with a fatty meal.
5. MT-2 (subcutaneous injections) - for certain phenotypes (will discuss in sun precautions).
6. Hyaluronic acid serum w/b5 (no other ingredients/harsh actives) - fantastic at addressing dryness during accutane. use right after your morning wash while your face is wet. your skin will glow.
SPECIAL CONSIDERATIONS:
Performance enhancing drugs:
If you are suffering with severe acne, you are hormonally FUCKED, please do not use any kind of PED's for gymmaxxing. You will defeat the whole purpose of this protocol which is skin remodeling. Accept being a twinkcel or use the PED's to look like a polish father of 4 (androgenic) w/ fucked up acne and/or a receding hairline, there is no in between unfortunately (DUT + MIN WILL NOT SAVE YOU). GLP1's are fine, but avoid steroids or SARMs because this will fuck up the work we are doing with the sebaceous glands and present a whole other set of risk profiles this article won't cover.
Diet/lifestyle:
Contrary to popular belief, diet does not play as big of a role in acne as genetics do. Please, do not waste your money on expensive cuts of raw meat that YOU COULD be spending on drugs that will actually FIX YOUR PROBLEMS. Instead focus on -
1. reducing processed foods as much as possible - look at the ingredients section. if there are a bunch of ingredients you cant even pronounce, don't fucking eat it.
2. drink a gallon of water a day - this will help with accutane and retinoid dryness and also help with improving your overall skin texture
3. Cut out "added" sugars - stick to fruit if you have a sweet craving, or zero calorie sweeteners (not great but better than scarfing down high fructose goyslop).
4. Try to eat at least 20g of fiber everyday - the reason why colon cancer is occurring in earlier ages (real crisis btw) is because of the fucking terrible havoc we wreck onto our gut microbiome's with processed food (carcinogenic additives and preservatives) and little fiber in the diet. protect your liver and gut health please, and don't listen to these stupid ass raw primal niggas.
5. exercise regularly - weight lift 3-4 times a week. cardio in between for at least 30 minutes. this alone will greatly improve your overall health and the processing of all these drugs.
6. Maintain a low body fat percentage - if you can't see your abs, you're too fat. get lean, look good. its going to improve your overall hormonal profile, mental state, and health.
Sun Precautions:
Because you will be using retinoids for the foreseeable future, please make an effort to protect your skin from the sun (especially if you are Caucasian). Retinoids make you incredibly photosensitive, and there is a risk permanent damage if you are careless. Here are some general guidelines I personally follow -
1. Wear broad spectrum (or pa++++) suncreen with SPF 50 everyday, no matter what. Apply every two hours if you are outdoors and doing activity. once or twice daily indoors is more than enough if you are by windows. remember to apply about two fingers worth for the face. Don't forget ears and hands.
2. Avoid intentional sun exposure if the UV index is at or above a 3. Get your daily sun exposure (that you actually need for circadian rhythm) in the mornings and late afternoon.
3. Wear a hat and sunglasses with UV protection when outside during high UV to reduce risk of permanent damage.
This will make you super pale. Depending on your phenotype, this can either work in your advantage or disadvantage - if you are pale and have ginger or blonde hair, I recommend dying your hair black (if you have light eyes) or instead using MT-2 to get good coloring.
Side effects of DUT (small chance but serious):
Be mindful that 5-7% of Dutasteride users will experience some serious side effects from long term use. that is a risk you will have to decide you're willing to take. some things I have in stock in my rx stack I recommend you get:
1. raloxiefene hydrochloride (10mg) - I keep this in case I see any signs of gyno. It is cheap, you can buy it online without a prescription, and it can save you THOUSANDS of dollars that you would otherwise have to spend on gyno surgery
2. Cialis - great for protecting your sexual and heart health on DUT. You can honestly take this as a supplement, if you aren't already.
IF YOU SEE SERIOUS SIDE EFFECTS -
1. stop the medication immediately. keep in mind that DUT has an incredibly long half life, and will take 5 weeks to clear your system.
2. turn to the medications I just listed above to help address the commonly seen side effects.
3. pivot to the topical options I provided earlier like Winlevi
Tips for your basic skincare:
1. keep it ridiculously simple. use a bland, hydrating, facial cleanser with no actives
2. always use non-comedogenic moisturizers, sunscreen, products moving forward
3. NEVER USE HARSH ACTIVES (avoid BP or SA especially if on accutane)
4. add a hydro-cortisone lip balm when on accutane.
5. never over wash. 1-2 times daily.
6. if your skin is really dry, just use cold water that day with HA after, skip the cleanser for that session.
7. use the "sandwich" method for applying topical Retinoid's to start (apply moisturizer, then retinoid, then moisturizer again).
THIS WAS MY FIRST POST. Thank you for reading (if you got this far) and hope this helps for those who need it
PHASE BY PHASE (NO BULLSHIT) GUIDE/TIMELINE TO EVISCERATE ACNE FOR GOOD:
Phase 1: High dose isotretinoin (reach cumulative dose)
Don't waste time with conservative treatments. Hop on a strong isotretinoin course (0.8-1mg/per kg of body weight daily) to reach the cumulative dose needed for your weight as soon as possible (120mg to 150mg per kg of bodyweight). This is the "magic number" used by dermatologists when prescribing a course of accutane in severe cases (DO NOT MICRODOSE TO START). The reason you do not want to microdose is because you are increasing the chances of scarring by taking treatment "low and slow." The faster you can clear your acne, the less chance you will have to deal with life changing scarring later. I am currently a few months into this phase, and I can tell you that I've experienced no side effects apart from dryness from the medication and a modest increase in my triglycerides. I would advise that you do this under the supervision of a dermatologist because of the effects on liver health (or just buy the drugs from India, and calculate the dosing yourself). This can clear you up in as little as four months. Be prepared to deal with purging in the initial stages of treatment (month 1-2).
Phase 2: BEFORE the isotretinoin course is finished, Introduce androgen suppression:
Isotretinoin is crucial, because it is essentially putting out the flame of acne by addressing - follicular keratization, inflammation, acne bacteria (by starving them), BUT, MOST IMPORTANTLY, SHRINKING AND INDUCING CELL DEATH TO THE SEBACEOUS GLANDS. In essence, isotretinoin is nuking your sebaceous glands.
The issue is that as as soon as the drug leaves your system, your sebaceous glands will eventually recover (reduced but still return). This is why some people end up doing another strong course of accutane later on in life (jesters). To ensure permanent remission, YOU MUST stop the fuel component of acne (aka your hormones).
DHT, is by far the worst hormone in your body, as it is not only responsible for the vast majority of male pattern baldness cases, it also acts as a gas pedal for the sebaceous glands. DHT - increases sebum production, stimulates gland growth, and enhances the inflammatory response. The idea with starting Dutasteride BEFORE you finish your accutane course is to kick the sebaceous glands while they are already down. DUT is a 5-alpha-reductase inhibitor. 5-alpha-reductase is the enzyme responsible for converting test to dht. There are two isoforms in humans, and Dutasteride blocks both. Drastically reducing androgen signaling to the sebaceous glands - the reason why a lot of teenagers get smashed with acne. I recommend you begin your Dutasteride use close to finishing your course (1-2 months before) to reduce the strain on your liver.
Accutane nukes the sebaceous glands, Dutasteride stops the hormone that tells them to recover.
ALTERNATIVES IF YOU DON'T FUCK WITH THE POTENTIAL SIDE EFFECTS OF DUT:
Option 1: If you don't want to use oral Dutasteride, you can use a topical anti-androgen like clascoterone (brand name Winlevi) to get a more local effect. Same idea, just weaker. The good thing about Winlevi is that it is mild on the skin, and not nearly as irritating as other actives commonly used in skincare. It also does not increase photo sensitivity, so you could take it while on accutane or after you have just finished your course (1 week after your last dose at latest), providing that you are using a non-irritating and non comodgenic skincare routine (will cover that later on in the thread).
Option 2: You could also use topical Dutasteride, however, this medication is much harder to obtain. Most that I have seen are combination creams, liquids, or foams used for hair loss as part of a compounding formula (includes minoxidil, tretinoin, etc). Finding a standalone cream is very difficult. If you can get your hands on this though, it is a great alternative to using systemic Dutasteride. Same principle as the Winlevi cream, but more effective.
Phase 3: 4–6 week skin recovery
Just keep taking dutasteride or a topical anti-androgen. Because you just fried your skin, you need some time to heal up before starting on other treatments. during this time, make sure to keep taking your medication and stick to a calm, hydrating skin care routine.
Phase 4: Retinoid ladder for long-term maintenance
After your skin had a second to breathe, begin adding in a prescription strength topical retinoid. Start with Tretinoin 0.025% a few nights per week. after about a month, increase the strength to 0.05%. Once you can tolerate that well, move on to 0.1% strength and so on. The goal is to at least hit Tretinoin 0.1% strength and use that nightly. Eventually, you may even be able to tolerate the strongest and most effective topical retinoids (tazarotene in high doses), but consistency and your tolerance is key. Using Tretinoin 0.05% nightly is better than using the stronger 0.1% only a few nights per week.
This is the beginning of the maintenance phase, where you use prescription strength topical retinoids on top of Dutasteride to maintain the results of your intense accutane course and let your skin barrier heal at the same time. If you are going down the Winlevi route, apply Winlevi in the morning, Retinoid in the evening. NEVER PUT ON A TOPICAL ANTI-ANDROGEN AND RETINOID AT THE SAME TIME.
Why topical retinoids are key for phase 4 (mogs microdosed accutane for collagen/skin remodeling for acne scars):
Looksmaxxing jesters, like testicular, have publicly said that micro-dosed accutane is better for collagen and anti aging than prescription topicals because it is systemic. This couldn't be further from the truth: Collagen production is triggered when retinoic acid binds to Retnoic acid receptors (RAR) in the skin. Tretinoin is like the biological key that fits the receptor perfectly because it IS a all trans retnoic acid. It directly tells your DNA to produce type 1 and 3 collagen. isotretinoin (13-cis-retnoic-acid) is like the bent cousin that doesn't fit into the receptors that well. Isotretinoin's main function is the shrinking of the sebaceous glands, and inducing cell death in sebaceous glands. When you take a pill, the medication has to travel through your entire system. By the time its been processed by your liver and reaches the dermis of your skin, the concentration is much lower than what you’d get from a direct topical application. Collagen is a secondary mechanism and less potent than the direct Retnoic acid application.
ACCUTANE = THE BEST for acne
TRETINOIN/TAZAROTENE = THE BEST for collagen/skin remodeling (anti-aging)
(optional) Phase 5: scar remodeling
This is the fluid part of the protocol. You may introduce Lazer treatments (Abiative lazers) or micro-needling to address any scarring that may have occurred as a result of your severe acne, or to stimulate even more collagen and make your skin more smooth. its up to you. Topical retinoids, using the retinoid ladder method, should cover you unless you are just a subhuman acne scar freak. (note): I recommend doing micro-needling for addressing acne scars as it is the cheapest option and highly effective, but again, it's up to you.
Phase 6: Lifelong maintenance protocol
If you went down the DUT route - The chances of you seeing permanent remission with this plan are very high. YOU WILL NOT NEED a second course of strong accutane. In phase 6, its just about staying on the retinoid + DUT combo long term. This is a life long commitment you must make.
if you went down the Winlevi route/topical DUT - after about 2-3 years, I would recommend you hop on a course of micro dosed accutane to shut down any remaining sebaceous gland activity. The initial evisceration should be more than enough, but because this route is notably weaker than using a systemic drug like DUT, I would advise you to do ONE FINAL course of MICRODOSED accutane (15mg at most. ideally 5-10mg daily). If you were to microdose accutane in a few years, pause the topical retinoid application, but continue applying the topical anti-androgen every morning.
My promise - just doing the first two methods will almost guarantee remission of your acne in as little as four months. the rest of the phases are just about maintenance, addressing scarring, and preventing acne from ever coming back.
SUPPLEMENT RECOMMENDATIONS (extra, not needed):
1. Naturalis Triple Strength UltraEPA™ EPA 1000mg - fantastic for lowering triglycerides during high dose accutane/protecting liver and heart health. take 1-2 pills daily with a fatty meal w/your accutane pills
2. Second gen anti-histamine (cetirizine hydrochloride) - to help control your skin's inflammation, itching, and flares (acne). get 10mg strength and take once daily
3. Dapsone gel 7.5% - Prescription antibiotic topical gel. worked great for me in reducing inflammation and redness during purging phase of accutane without irritation or dryness. (DO NOT COMBINE THIS WITH SOME POTENT ACTIVE. JUST USE THIS ONCE DAILY ON ITS OWN).
4. VItamin d3 + k2 (2000iu daily for Caucasians) - to cover needs daily needs while following sun precautions (will address in sun precautions section). take 1 pill daily with a fatty meal.
5. MT-2 (subcutaneous injections) - for certain phenotypes (will discuss in sun precautions).
6. Hyaluronic acid serum w/b5 (no other ingredients/harsh actives) - fantastic at addressing dryness during accutane. use right after your morning wash while your face is wet. your skin will glow.
SPECIAL CONSIDERATIONS:
Performance enhancing drugs:
Diet/lifestyle:
Contrary to popular belief, diet does not play as big of a role in acne as genetics do. Please, do not waste your money on expensive cuts of raw meat that YOU COULD be spending on drugs that will actually FIX YOUR PROBLEMS. Instead focus on -
1. reducing processed foods as much as possible - look at the ingredients section. if there are a bunch of ingredients you cant even pronounce, don't fucking eat it.
2. drink a gallon of water a day - this will help with accutane and retinoid dryness and also help with improving your overall skin texture
3. Cut out "added" sugars - stick to fruit if you have a sweet craving, or zero calorie sweeteners (not great but better than scarfing down high fructose goyslop).
4. Try to eat at least 20g of fiber everyday - the reason why colon cancer is occurring in earlier ages (real crisis btw) is because of the fucking terrible havoc we wreck onto our gut microbiome's with processed food (carcinogenic additives and preservatives) and little fiber in the diet. protect your liver and gut health please, and don't listen to these stupid ass raw primal niggas.
5. exercise regularly - weight lift 3-4 times a week. cardio in between for at least 30 minutes. this alone will greatly improve your overall health and the processing of all these drugs.
6. Maintain a low body fat percentage - if you can't see your abs, you're too fat. get lean, look good. its going to improve your overall hormonal profile, mental state, and health.
Sun Precautions:
Because you will be using retinoids for the foreseeable future, please make an effort to protect your skin from the sun (especially if you are Caucasian). Retinoids make you incredibly photosensitive, and there is a risk permanent damage if you are careless. Here are some general guidelines I personally follow -
1. Wear broad spectrum (or pa++++) suncreen with SPF 50 everyday, no matter what. Apply every two hours if you are outdoors and doing activity. once or twice daily indoors is more than enough if you are by windows. remember to apply about two fingers worth for the face. Don't forget ears and hands.
2. Avoid intentional sun exposure if the UV index is at or above a 3. Get your daily sun exposure (that you actually need for circadian rhythm) in the mornings and late afternoon.
3. Wear a hat and sunglasses with UV protection when outside during high UV to reduce risk of permanent damage.
This will make you super pale. Depending on your phenotype, this can either work in your advantage or disadvantage - if you are pale and have ginger or blonde hair, I recommend dying your hair black (if you have light eyes) or instead using MT-2 to get good coloring.
Side effects of DUT (small chance but serious):
Be mindful that 5-7% of Dutasteride users will experience some serious side effects from long term use. that is a risk you will have to decide you're willing to take. some things I have in stock in my rx stack I recommend you get:
1. raloxiefene hydrochloride (10mg) - I keep this in case I see any signs of gyno. It is cheap, you can buy it online without a prescription, and it can save you THOUSANDS of dollars that you would otherwise have to spend on gyno surgery
2. Cialis - great for protecting your sexual and heart health on DUT. You can honestly take this as a supplement, if you aren't already.
IF YOU SEE SERIOUS SIDE EFFECTS -
1. stop the medication immediately. keep in mind that DUT has an incredibly long half life, and will take 5 weeks to clear your system.
2. turn to the medications I just listed above to help address the commonly seen side effects.
3. pivot to the topical options I provided earlier like Winlevi
Tips for your basic skincare:
1. keep it ridiculously simple. use a bland, hydrating, facial cleanser with no actives
2. always use non-comedogenic moisturizers, sunscreen, products moving forward
3. NEVER USE HARSH ACTIVES (avoid BP or SA especially if on accutane)
4. add a hydro-cortisone lip balm when on accutane.
5. never over wash. 1-2 times daily.
6. if your skin is really dry, just use cold water that day with HA after, skip the cleanser for that session.
7. use the "sandwich" method for applying topical Retinoid's to start (apply moisturizer, then retinoid, then moisturizer again).
THIS WAS MY FIRST POST. Thank you for reading (if you got this far) and hope this helps for those who need it
