I love capitalism

[incel194012940]

quality of life under either system is fine tbh

i'd rather be under any goverment today except the 3 or 4 worst ones than be anything but top 1% in top country 200 yrs ago

 

[longjohnmong]

if the government has a monopoly on violence it’s not true capitalism. True capitalism can only be stateless where corporations form armies and fight each other for land and resources, anything less than this is faggot rich boy Ayn Rand reading sheltered cuck fantasy

You ever play that game Syndicate? Classic.

 

[longjohnmong]

quality of life under either system is fine tbh

i'd rather be under any goverment today except the 3 or 4 worst ones than be anything but top 1% in top country 200 yrs ago

Even in top 1% you'd probably have chronic hemorrhoids, intestinal parasites, fleas, gout, mercury poisoning.

"At age 24, Washington recorded in his diary that he paid 5 shillings to a “Doctr Watson” who removed one of his teeth. Letters and diary entries later in his life make regular reference to aching teeth, lost teeth, inflamed gums, ill-fitting dentures, and a host of other dental miseries. Payments to dentists and purchases of toothbrushes, teeth scrapers, denture files, toothache medication, and cleaning solutions are also regularly present in Washington’s communications throughout his life."

People are so fucking naive to realty when they discuss these things.

 

[longjohnmong]

I advocate for a society based on voluntary cooperation, mutual aid, and decentralized decision-making. Instead of relying on centralized authority, power would be dispersed among local communities and individuals. Economic activities would be organized through worker cooperatives and community-owned enterprises, ensuring that the benefits are shared among all participants. This model promotes individual freedoms while emphasizing social and economic equality, aiming to create a society that prioritizes human well-being over profit-driven motives.

Yeah, this might work if the average IQ and EQ were twice what they actually are.

 

[Shekelberg]

Communism can be coined as classless, stateless and moneyless society; Socialism as an intermediate stage.

Socialism as the dictatorship of the proletariat or when both production AND appropriation of the products are collectivised.
Under Capitalism you have collectivised production but private appropriation of the products. The capitalist owns the machines and the facillities and buys labour power. The capitalist also skims off a surplus of the value, the worker has produced, as a profit (simplified).
So the employed worker in a sense only gets a third of the value of his work back, because he has to carry the cost of the constant capital (materials and the depreciation of the machines) AND the surplus value (simply the profit) as well.
Since the capitalist cant just whiplash the constant capital, his profit will always stand in opposition to your wage.
The workers are slaving away for products they can not even buy and thats one of the contradictions of capitalism.
Capitalism also needs the state to ensure their right of private property, the state becomes the dictatorship of the capitalists or of the capital in other ways as well.
Capitalists tend to overpay or bribe worker-elites since the production would go down the bottom if they went (more often) on union strikes too when the ample contradictions of capitalism flare up again
A Socialist state can still employ capitalist methods, its quite common actually to trade more easily. And if Jeff Bezos is really such a good organiser of production, then he should keep that high position, just not the role of the capitalist.

People should not compare former Socialist countries who have been underdeveloped before and entangled in trade wars ever since with the more developed Capitalist-Imperialist countries of the West (who exploit other lower developed capitalist countries through unequal exchange)

 

[Shekelberg]

if the government has a monopoly on violence it’s not true capitalism. True capitalism can only be stateless where corporations form armies and fight each other for land and resources, anything less than this is faggot rich boy Ayn Rand reading sheltered cuck fantasy

But the corporations will take the role of the state
Ensure basic civility but protect their private property rights with their Pinkerton police force

 

[Shekelberg]

it's a bad idea to put power in the hands of the workers. the worthy should govern

And how do you deem worthy?
Socialists ask an alcoholic stapler driver as absolute authority on where and how to build a new and highly-advanced nuclear reactor somewhere? Does his vote have as much say as that of certain experts or other important figureheads that are concerned and specifically called into a commission?

 

[longjohnmong]

So the employed worker in a sense only gets a third of the value of his work back

So why doesn't the worker just go out into the woods where he can get 100% of the value of his work?

 

[Shekelberg]

Nobody who lived in countries with socialism and moved to normal countries love it.

Normal countries? You mean those developed countries that partake in the exploitation of the, what you might call it, unnormal countries?

 

[Shekelberg]

So why doesn't the worker just go out into the woods where he can get 100% of the value of his work?

The woods around here are private property as well but I get what you mean.
He does not go out into the woods the same reason why humans tried to advance and did advance in survivorship and, above that, the fullfilment of other basic needs.
And we are talking about one here, why does not every worker go out to the woods? Why should we give up marshes that our ancestors hieved out, forests that were cultured, things that were invented, machines that were manufactured, nature that was bent. Why should they flee from the things they themselves have worked for?
It is more logical to just collectivise or socialise the factories, machines etc. to get the 100% or at least have a rightful say what happens to the other percent.

Capitalism is so outdated, especially since the advent of the internet. Big corporations are doing planned economy internally already, they have to. Even if they stump potential advancement and raze worker movements, they still concentrate and ripe enough so that we just have the pluck the production like an apple if a revolution happens to ensure.

 

[Shekelberg]

Ironic because that essentially what Marx describes if I'm not wrong he states constant propaganda needs to be created to convince people they are still fighting capitalism and capitalists even after communism has been achieved

True to the extent that Capitalism leaves its superstructure, even after you remove it as the base of society. It took a longer while for the bourgeois, too, to remove remnants of feudal superstructure, to the dismay of Balsac

 

[Shekelberg]

Depends on what those taxes are used on if it benefits me without me knowing the no it doesn't undermine my freedom. But I do think a flat tax rate across the entire populous is a bit dumb individuals should be able to choose what they're tax goes to and how much they pay.

I mean, even if you would have a highly taxing capitalist state, the money would go to measures that would at best ensure basic civility, infrastructure or make concessions to strong worker unions etc., but majority of money usually ends up as bank bailouts, bombing muslim kids or even subsidising private companies (e.g. SpaceX etc. for endless tax breaks and subsidies)

Now, this does not even matter to me or if they made good calculations, it is obvious that they have insane options for tax loop holes.
EU also made a 70 billion€ contract with Pfizer for vaccines with state money, barely anyone here even knew that at the time.

 

[Shekelberg]

Because it is a utopic dream.It would only work if everyone was a goody two shoes NPC.It would only work unironically if there was hypertotalitarian regime like Oceania in 1984.

I dont like Orwell but fortunately he was describing the capitalist dystopia there. It takes the boots-on-face dictatorship of capital to keep this current society running?
Communism is not a dystopia, it is pretty logical if you take a view on how society developed.
The Socialist experiments were the first of many, born into a hostile environment, akin to the many first forms certain states or movements took that eventually formed the economic systems of past history.
Besides that, communism has been part of most of our human history, in its primitive form (hunter gatherers etc.)
Capitalism is as real as Communism.

Capitalism made the unprecedented achievement that they collectivised production and scaled it up so much over time that goods were produced that working people in feudal times, who produced privately (artisans, farmers), could not fathom. One feudal aspect remains in capitalism, and that is the private appropriation of the product.
Communism is very logical and the only thing obstructing it is an equally strong, yet artificial, force against it.

 

[wificonnector]

And how do you deem worthy?
Socialists ask an alcoholic stapler driver as absolute authority on where and how to build a new and highly-advanced nuclear reactor somewhere? Does his vote have as much say as that of certain experts or other important figureheads that are concerned and specifically called into a commission?

Shit example. every socialist cites him as an example. but what about the government and scientists who are developing the project? a civil servant can easily reject the idea of a scientist because he did not like his speech, etc., but in a capitalist country such a refusal could even lead to the bankruptcy of the company

Normal countries? You mean those developed countries that partake in the exploitation of the, what you might call it, unnormal countries?

write the socialist countries and each of them will participate in the exploitation of its population

 

[Shekelberg]

Shit example. every socialist cites him as an example. but what about the government and scientists who are developing the project? a civil servant can easily reject the idea of a scientist because he did not like his speech, etc., but in a capitalist country such a refusal could even lead to the bankruptcy of the company

You mean like bureaucracy?
Fortunately the big banks in Europe and USA are left to fail if they have problems with their finances.
Why can the scientist not be the "civil servant" (or has the same decision-making power)? Why cant every "civil servant" be voted out by the same people that voted him in again, any time?
You act like a country can not be Socialist if it does not reenact everything e.g. Soviet Union ever did. Cuba, Vietnam and China differ a lot from Soviet Union, the Soviet Union changed too over the years, sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse.
You should understand that the implementation of Socialism requires active participation and there is no blueprint, thats why it is controversial if China or whatever should still be considered Socialist.

Besides that, Socialism does not require that the state is controlling the workplace, cooperations or collective workplaces are run by its actual workers (with a hierarchy, of course). And it can still be Socialism if the State actually does jackshit and nearly everything that relates to work is actually a cooperation; the circumstances are just not right for this

 

[Deleted member 6128]

I mean, even if you would have a highly taxing capitalist state, the money would go to measures that would at best ensure basic civility, infrastructure or make concessions to strong worker unions etc., but majority of money usually ends up as bank bailouts, bombing muslim kids or even subsidising private companies (e.g. SpaceX etc. for endless tax breaks and subsidies)

View attachment 2208688
Now, this does not even matter to me or if they made good calculations, it is obvious that they have insane options for tax loop holes.
EU also made a 70 billion€ contract with Pfizer for vaccines with state money, barely anyone here even knew that at the time.

Ye that’s why you need an authoritarian government that isn’t retarded like Singapores centralised power is extremely important in a society where deviants can very easily abuse the system.

 

[Shekelberg]

Ye that’s why you need an authoritarian government that isn’t retarded like Singapores centralised power is extremely important in a society where deviants can very easily abuse the system.

truly, there has to be at least some sort of vanguard party, that are highly educated, motivated and, most importantly, principled.
Being educated should become standard, since it concerns everyone, even more so if communism is actively pursued. Big project

 

[Lord-Arthur_17]

Perhaps you are right. I'm only human and I can be wrong. I also have doubts. However, no matter what our views are, life goes on its own track. Alone, none of us will be able to change the world, even if we were a larger group. Something is missing in our lives because of these pointless political disputes... so let's touch the grass

@wificonnector @longjohnmong

 

[Deleted member 20835]

I dont like Orwell but fortunately he was describing the capitalist dystopia there.

Didn't he base the authoritarianism on stalinist russia and nazi germany,how would the book be about capitalism

 

[Deleted member 24278]

I just want pussy

 

[Shekelberg]

Didn't he base the authoritarianism on stalinist russia and nazi germany,how would the book be about capitalism

I have confused 1984 with Brave New World

 

[Deleted member 20835]

I have confused 1984 with Brave New World

 

[Crusile]

There is an unlimited amount of economic systems that can exist. "capitalism" is just one where capital is given top legal priority. Everything is done to protect capital, if you have capital, you have an intrinsic right to free money

lmfao arbitrary laws that enforce "ownership" of capital, the right to collect free money from your "returns".

for example, you can make up some government policies that enforce consumption of all earned income to prevent savings/capital accumulation. This isnt capitalism or socialism, what is it? something else

 

[Crusile]

People who are considered unremarkable often find themselves drawn to ideologies such as socialism, communism, and Marxism.
This attraction can be attributed, in large part, to their profound insecurity about their own abilities. Their disdain for capitalism stems from the fact that it rewards individuals who demonstrate exceptional talent and allows them to utilize their skills to climb the socioeconomic ladder, thereby contributing to the advancement of society. Consequently, these individuals yearn for a society that suppresses exceptional individuals, as it helps alleviate their own feelings of inferiority.

Cringe alert cringe alert

 

[Skywalker]

People who are considered unremarkable often find themselves drawn to ideologies such as socialism, communism, and Marxism.
This attraction can be attributed, in large part, to their profound insecurity about their own abilities. Their disdain for capitalism stems from the fact that it rewards individuals who demonstrate exceptional talent and allows them to utilize their skills to climb the socioeconomic ladder, thereby contributing to the advancement of society. Consequently, these individuals yearn for a society that suppresses exceptional individuals, as it helps alleviate their own feelings of inferiority.

perfectly put
its an ideology for losers and lazy people, actually, not even talking about ugliness, because id rather be ugly and rich and bang high end escorts than rot tbh

also its not even for low IQ ppl, because theres plenty of low- mid IQ ppl in the western countries earning an upper- middle income by being contractors in the construction industry or being an experienced plumber, lets say, or other tradie

 

[Whatashame]

I've learned more about socialism and it's unironically dogshit it's biggest flaw is that it doesn't realize some people cannot be helped and others should not be helped. I also do not agree with high taxes in general but I can agree with the fact that rich people shouldn't have the ability to become stateless i.e have the power to not be held down by a government.

People like u are the cancer of society. I bet your "learned more" was to see a video on the topic. U have no idea what communism/socialism is.

 

[Deleted member 6128]

People like u are the cancer of society. I bet your "learned more" was to see a video on the topic. U have no idea what communism/socialism is.

A state with no government or currency or class

 

[lasnt]

My country was rich and a super power under communism and it became a shithole under capitalism.

That’s all I need to know.

Albania never was a super power it was always a shithole with 10b GDP

 

[The Grinch]

Smash capitalism, embrace communism

 

[Lord-Arthur_17]

Albania never was a super power it was always a shithole with 10b GDP

You are comparing a country that has never committed land theft from indigenous peoples, slavery and a war aimed at plundering entire nations with world empires.

Albania, as a country that was sentenced to isolation, was doing great. No wonder the Western imperialists decided to sow chaos there. If you are interested in the topic, watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THxONk4fnD4&list=PLcDdX4b6TCB1A5V8cpK-P2N9EJr-ZdHzO​

 

[longjohnmong]

You are comparing a country that has never committed land theft from indigenous peoples, slavery and a war aimed at plundering entire nations with world empires.
​

Nah, it's cool. Indigenous Americans didn't have a concept of land ownership, so their land couldn't really be stolen.

 

[Lord-Arthur_17]

Nah, it's cool. Indigenous Americans didn't have a concept of land ownership, so their land couldn't really be stolen.

American imperialists committed genocide.​

 

[longjohnmong]

American imperialists committed genocide.​

Where?

 

[Lord-Arthur_17]

Where?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes​

 

[longjohnmong]

View attachment 2452068

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes​

I asked about genocide, not for a list of US bombing. Somehow we've gone from land theft from indigenous people to bombing Yugoslavia.

 

[Lord-Arthur_17]

I asked about genocide, not for a list of US bombing. Somehow we've gone from land theft from indigenous people to bombing Yugoslavia.

Many of the indigenous people were wiped out, and now the remaining few are confined to reservations. I will say this to Americans and their apologists: you cannot be a judge in your own case​

 

[longjohnmong]

Many of the indigenous people were wiped out, and now the remaining few are confined to reservations. I will say this to Americans and their apologists: you cannot be a judge in your own case​

Oh, we're back to the indigenous people? Yeah, they didn't have a concept of land ownership, so there was no way for their land to be stolen. Many of indigenous people who were wiped out had wiped out other indigenous people anyway, so it was okay. Justice for the Toltecs!

 

[Deleted member 18879]

socialism is perfect for dysgenic retards like myself

i get hard when i hear about STEMcels dying or getting laid off they are the worst 99% of the time

 

[Lord-Arthur_17]

Oh, we're back to the indigenous people? Yeah, they didn't have a concept of land ownership, so there was no way for their land to be stolen. Many of indigenous people who were wiped out had wiped out other indigenous people anyway, so it was okay. Justice for the Toltecs!

You say that because you are privileged.​

 

[longjohnmong]

You say that because you are privileged.​

You say that because you are privileged.

 

[longjohnmong]

now the remaining few are confined to reservations.

Also lol. No they're not. They're US citizens.

 

[Lord-Arthur_17]

You say that because you are privileged.

You are the one defending war crimes, these bombings are genocide. Disgusting that you defend this
​

Also lol. No they're not. They're US citizens.

I wonder if you will say the same when, for example, the French become minorities in their own country called "New Algeria" - maybe they should accept immigrants who are grateful for their previous colonization?​

 

[gribsufer1]

Wish I could just live on a farm and be self sufficient and have a family at an early age just like my grandparents parents did.

allowed under communism , cant under capitalism unless you have money

 

[longjohnmong]

You are the one defending war crimes, these bombings are genocide. Disgusting that you defend this

This is so retarded. We were talking about stealing indigenous land, then you changed the subject to bombings, so that means I'm defending bombing? This is why everyone fucking hates you people.

I wonder if you will say the same when, for example, the French become minorities in their own country called "New Algeria" - maybe they should accept immigrants who are grateful for their previous colonization?

Will it be hundreds of years after the establishment of New Algeria, when the entire world has moved on from whatever way of life the French had in the early 21st century, and ethnically French people are free to live like everyone else in New Algeria? Then, yeah, I probably would. Or at least I would antagonize people who are complaining about it

 

[gribsufer1]

People who are considered unremarkable often find themselves drawn to ideologies such as socialism, communism, and Marxism.
This attraction can be attributed, in large part, to their profound insecurity about their own abilities. Their disdain for capitalism stems from the fact that it rewards individuals who demonstrate exceptional talent and allows them to utilize their skills to climb the socioeconomic ladder, thereby contributing to the advancement of society. Consequently, these individuals yearn for a society that suppresses exceptional individuals, as it helps alleviate their own feelings of inferiority.

youre not rich are you faggot

I advocate for a society based on voluntary cooperation, mutual aid, and decentralized decision-making. Instead of relying on centralized authority, power would be dispersed among local communities and individuals. Economic activities would be organized through worker cooperatives and community-owned enterprises, ensuring that the benefits are shared among all participants. This model promotes individual freedoms while emphasizing social and economic equality, aiming to create a society that prioritizes human well-being over profit-driven m

and then you and the rest of them would be murdered by marauders or foreign invaders

get guns

 

[gribsufer1]

it's a bad idea to put power in the hands of the workers. the worthy should govern

ur fucking stupid bro u habe no idea what your talking about or how cooperatives work there is obviously layers of heirarchy and people who are the most fit for certain roles are the ones who do it