Is it better to have strong political beliefs or to listen to both sides

[Deleted member 19101]

I previously only listened to right wing speakers / news but some things I disagree with are things like climate change not being real. And I’m conflicted about abortion because I think I’m desensitized to it, and think it’s disgusting at the same time. I probably support hitler knowing how much disinformation was circulated about the holocaust and him during ww2 (the Jews) I think voting red is the way to go for a better country.

 

[Deleted member 19101]

@thecel what do you think about Roe v Wade being overturned?

 

[Good_Little_Goy]

Better to toe the line tbh
normies will look at you weird too

@thecel what do you think about Roe v Wade being overturned?

is not overturned yet I think just a draft

 

[Deleted member 19101]

Better to toe the line tbh
normies will look at you weird too


is not overturned yet I think just a draft

Yeah, the hypothetical is interesting tbh. Politics / social issues are interesting to me because I don’t have a girlfriend and care about my country and want to understand why people think the way they do

 

[Fear]

Inform yourself as much as possible from all perspectives and walks of life and only then form your convictions. Even then keep an open mind and always be willing, even eager, to test your beliefs against new and potentially more correct positions. Ego is worthless and harmful, the truth is all that matters.

 

[thecel]

@thecel what do you think about Roe v Wade being overturned?

Abortion is murder.

 

[Fear]

Abortion is murder.

It certainly is, but that's oversimplified. The grave reality is that such a "murder" is often justified and better. Lives aren't equal, despite the feel-good baloney people like to push, as many users here, who are born into very unfortunate and hopeless circumstances sometimes, very well know.

A life that is non-sentient and hasn't even experienced life as we know it isn't a big loss. Yes, it's still killing it, and it's not at all an event that should be taken lightly, but what about all the people who will be affected by being forced to birth a child they don't really want? The mother, the father, who are often not capable or ready to raise a child (it's not like buying a pet, it's a whole life you have to shape and care for), their families, a society forced to pick up a tab for welfare services, a world that already has too many mouths to feed and too much pollution from consumption, and the child itself who can likely suffer resentment and a lack of resources and just a generally miserable life.

That's not worth it. It's frequently better to kill the seed of life if it cannot or will not be taken care of properly than to burden the lives of many others who are already here and struggling. And at the very least, we need to allow people the option to do it. You have to try to see beyond this whole "it's murder, it's murder" freakout.

 

[thecel]

It certainly is, but that's oversimplified. The grave reality is that such a "murder" is often justified and better. Lives aren't equal, despite the feel-good baloney people like to push, as many users here, who are born into very unfortunate and hopeless circumstances sometimes, very well know.

A life that is non-sentient and hasn't even experienced life as we know it isn't a big loss. Yes, it's still killing it, and it's not at all an event that should be taken lightly, but what about all the people who will be affected by being forced to birth a child they don't really want? The mother, the father, who are often not capable or ready to raise a child (it's not like buying a pet, it's a whole life you have to shape and care for), their families, a society forced to pick up a tab for welfare services, a world that already has too many mouths to feed and too much pollution from consumption, and the child itself who can likely suffer resentment and a lack of resources and just a generally miserable life.

That's not worth it. It's frequently better to kill the seed of life if it cannot or will not be taken care of properly than to burden the lives of many others who are already here and struggling. And at the very least, we need to allow people the option to do it. You have to try to see beyond this whole "it's murder, it's murder" freakout.

Imagine meeting Gandy and he tells you that your motha offed you because you’re too subhuman to be worth it. You’d probably want to kill your mom out of revenge.

 

[Deleted member 17430]

I’m conflicted about abortion because I think I’m desensitized to it, and think it’s disgusting at the same time.

Most of the debate around abortion is redundant because they just argue back and forth on whether the fetus counts as a human life.

Pro choicers say that "the fetus is just a clump of cells" and pro lifers say "the fetus is a baby".

The assumption is: "If it's a baby, it's wrong to kill it" So each side argues whether or not it counts as a baby. Which doesn't go anywhere.

The discussion shouldn't center around that. It doesn't matter if it is a baby or not. The point is that it's a mindless form of life.

Pro lifers often bring up the example of an adult in a coma who currently doesn't have any mental activity, but who has a chance of recovering and waking up in the future. If it's wrong to kill this adult, why would it be right to kill the baby just because it's currently mindless?

But that's not a good comparison. The adult has a mind full of memories, feelings and bonds with other people. It's just temporarily dormant while they're in a coma. The baby never had a mind in its entire existence. They never had a single thought ever.

A better comparison would be an artificially created adult human body that is alive, but not awake. It never had a mind to begin with. It's a human body and it's alive, the heart is pumping and all. But does that life have any intrinsic value when it's just a mindless empty shell? It's the same thing with the baby.


We need to establish the difference between intrinsic and assigned value.

A conscious human life has intrinsic value. That is, even if we were in a vacuum, we'd still have value. Meanwhile gold for example has assigned value. It only has the value it has because people assign this value to it. Gold would be worthless in a vacuum.

A fetus generally has immense assigned value because the parents and their families are eagerly expecting its birth and already overwhelming with positive feelings towards the baby. So even without intrinsic value, that life still has a lot of value.

Meanwhile, an undesired fetus has no value at all. It has no assigned value since no one wants it and it has no intrinsic value since it is nothing more than a mindless piece of flesh.

Same reason why you can kill wild animals but not someone's pet. A goldfish is nothing more than an inferior creature, without assigned value, its life is worthless. No one cares if you go into the lake and kill a bunch. But if a particular goldfish is cared for by a human being, it has value. Assigned value. No goldfish will ever have intrinsic value, because they don't have an intelligent consciousness with self awareness. In a vacuum, goldfish are worth nothing.

 

[Fear]

Imagine meeting Gandy and he tells you that your motha offed you because you’re too subhuman to be worth it. You’d probably want to kill your mom out of revenge.

Lol. Well, there's no reason to suspect anything supernatural like that is even possible. And the fact is that the seed of life isn't necessarily inherently worth much of anything. It's not exactly difficult and doesn't exactly require a large investment to create a child... Five minutes of some pig sweating on top of a woman in most cases. I'm not saying all unborn children are fungible but you have to be practical about it too... it's not a large loss. @Tyrion! above me is spot-on about "assigned value" in these cases.

It's definitely a sad event that people shouldn't treat as flippantly as they do though, for sure. Probably all the people on this board would agree that casually getting pregnant all the time and using abortion as a first resort is distasteful and irresponsible at minimum. I'd say likely indicative of degeneracy too. But you have to put yourself in all possible shoes of people who might need to get an abortion. People make mistakes and it's not fair to force them to be responsible for raising someone for at least 18 years when it was clearly avoidable! I don't think the anti-abortion crowd realize that. They're very pro-birth, but once the kid is born, they're not terribly concerned with its or its family's quality of life.

 

[thecel]

Most of the debate around abortion is redundant because they just argue back and forth on whether the fetus counts as a human life.

Pro choicers say that "the fetus is just a clump of cells" and pro lifers say "the fetus is a baby".

The assumption is: "If it's a baby, it's wrong to kill it" So each side argues whether or not it counts as a baby. Which doesn't go anywhere.

The discussion shouldn't center around that. It doesn't matter if it is a baby or not.

Agree.

---

A goldfish is nothing more than an inferior creature, without assigned value, it's life is worthless.

No goldfish will ever have intrinsic value, because they don't have an intelligent consciousness with self awareness. In a vacuum, goldfish are worth nothing.

Disagree.

 

[thecel]

They're very pro-birth, but once the kid is born, they're not terribly concerned with its or its family's quality of life.

The American Cancer Society isn’t terribly concerned with curing Diabetes.

 

[Deleted member 17430]

Disagree.

Can you elaborate on why you think a goldfish has intrinsic value? Their brains are extremely primitive and limited. They're just automatas programmed to do the bare minimum to survive. No consciousness whatsoever. Do you also think insect lives matter?

 

[thecel]

No consciousness whatsoever.

The same can be said about hoomans.

Sadly, I’m not articulate enough to discuss consciousness in a widely understandable way.

In a nutshell, I believe:

• consciousness has infinite value
• there’s no point in living without consciousness
• actions that don’t affect consciousness or the stuff in consciousness can’t be morally wrong
  • Therefore, if it can be proven 100% that consciousness doesn’t exist, nothing is immoral.
• literally anything in the Universe can be conscious
• we can’t know what’s conscious and what isn’t, ourselves included

---

Do you also think insect lives matter?

Yes.

 

[thecel]

@Tyrion!

 

[Deleted member 17430]

consciousness has infinite value

Disagree with this. I think intelligent consciousnesses have a very high value, but not infinite.

there’s no point in living without consciousness

That's a human centric way to look at it. I also wouldn't want to live with no consciousness, but that's because I've always had one.

If I didn't have a consciousness, I wouldn't care, I wouldn't be able to care. Plants, fungi and bacteria live with no consciousness and they're pillars of all life on earth. Even insects, who make up most of the animals on the planet and serve vital roles in all land ecosystems have little to no consciousness. Yet we depend on them to exist, so I don't think it's right calling their lives pointless.

In the grand pyramid of life, only the animals near the top of the food chain have a consciousness. For each of those "superior animals" to exist, millions of inferior ones have to live and die for them. Each creature has their role.

actions that don’t affect consciousness or the stuff in consciousness can’t be morally wrong

Agree. Something can't be immoral without a victim. If the action doesn't negatively impact any consciousness, it can't be immoral.

literally anything in the Universe can be conscious

in my view, only living beings with intricate brains have a consciousness. Are you approaching this from a spiritual perspective? There are religions that believe even stones have souls.

we can’t know what’s conscious and what isn’t, ourselves included

Of course we know that we're conscious. I think therefore I am.

 

[thecel]

Of course we know that we're conscious. I think therefore I am.

Cope. A person behaves the same whether conscious or unconscious. How do you know that other people are conscious? What if you’re the only player and everyone else is just an NPC? If all others can be NPC bots while acting the same as conscious beings would act, you might be an NPC bot too.

 

[Deleted member 6403]

yes, of course, bro, extremism is always the best option

 

[Deleted member 17430]

Cope. A person behaves the same whether conscious or unconscious. How do you know that other people are conscious? What if you’re the only player and everyone else is just an NPC? If all others can be NPC bots while acting the same as conscious beings would act, you might be an NPC bot too.

I know that I'm not an NPC because I have a inner monologue, I can feel my own consciousness.

I think what you mean is that even if you think and do things according to your own thoughts, how do you know your thoughts are really yours and weren't predetermined? You're talking about fate.

In a way, fate is real. Everything that is happening now is the result of past actions. If there was a super consciousness able to analyze everything on the planet, including everyone's minds on a molecular level, they'd be able to accurately calculate everything that will happen in the future. But I don't think this makes us NPCs playing into a premade story. No one knows this future.

 

[looksmaxxed]

discount the bad and listen to what makes sense. i have not heard a single good argument come from liberals or progressives regarding any of the important politicial issues, so i will have to continue discounting their opinions as shit.

i'm not just doing this automatically, i know what their arguments are, and i know you have to be stupid to think those are good arguments

 

[Deleted member 16853]

I don't care about politics, Its too boring. Maybe if they added in some big titty anime girls for promotion i'd get involved