Is jutting legit for CCW rotation or not?

[Babushkacatlady]

Fascinating. How old were you during this, and how long did achieving class 1 take overall? Are you still making more progress?

Was a mouth breather for most of childhood due to big tonsils. Chewed a shit ton from age 16-18 for several hours a day. Did nothing for my class 2 and left me with chipmunk round jaw, but did help my ramus. Stopped doing that and just focused on tongue posture, jutting, lips together, and teeth gently together from 19-20 and fixed the class 2 in about a year. Am 21 now, still making progress, albeit slower. I've never had orthodontics and today I get compliments on "nice teeth" (only mild lower crowding) and "strong features". I'm certain if I had orthodontics, my face would look far far worse. Funny thing is, I still have a bit of a deep bite, and my maxilla is still technically around 10mm too far down and around 5mm too far back.

 

[antiantifa]

I heard it can cause/worsen tmj. Should i do it in the end or not? I have a normal bite and dont want to risk it, also i'm not recessed like in the before pic example in that thread

You miss all of the chances you don't take. Ask yourself this: Do you have anything to lose? Can you mess up your face any more? If you drop 1 PSL now would it make a difference?

Interesting. How did your overall facial appearance change?

I definitely don't have a strong chin (it's neutral) but it is the strongest chin in the family. Other changes are noted below

What happened to your nose, more humped or less?- less
What happened to your mandible, more forward or less?- more forward
What happened to your ears, CCW or CW rotated?- cw
What happened to your cheeks, thinner or fatter?- thinner
Indicator line?-around 42-43
Upper/Lower Inter-molar/Inter-canine distance?- 34.5 IMW 31 ICW
Ramus length?- much longer, probably helped by chewing too
Also maybe pictures with your eyes removed?- would prefer not but may post in the future.
What about tongue posture, what did you do with it? Did you keep it up or as low as possible?- up against the palate

I notice during sleep that my face just wants to bring my molars upwards for some reason, it's annoying because it leads to CW rotation, I notice tension in temporalis during sleep. It's not tension from my consciously. This probably means you're having issues posturing your mandible, perhaps even posturing it too far back since the temporalis is also responsible for bringing the mandible up and back.

How so? The nerves of the tongue are different compared to the nerves of the masseter. And the masseter isn't required to keep the mouth shut. The Trigeminal Nerve branches out and controls both

Also who's alt are you? I know whose alt you are, I'll leave you to guess who I am.

I know who's alt you are from TGW, that's obvious, but who's alt are you from this website .

Also interesting changes, I'll try lightly just lightly clenching with first molars forward.

Now that I think of it, there was something in that article series from Portland's TMJ clinic that relates to the study:

View attachment 978710

The Portland TMJ Clinic - Chapter 4

Portland Oregon temporomandibular joint Specialist, Dr. Summer specializes in treatment of temporomandibular disorder and Pain Management of the jaw joint

portlandtmjclinic.com

Yeah I read this one, I think they copied this article from some Polish or Eastern European clinic that theorized that bruxism is caused by a soft diet and the body resists the soft diet.

 

[antiantifa]

Was a mouth breather for most of childhood due to big tonsils. Chewed a shit ton from age 16-18 for several hours a day. Did nothing for my class 2 and left me with chipmunk round jaw, but did help my ramus. Stopped doing that and just focused on tongue posture, jutting, lips together, and teeth gently together from 19-20 and fixed the class 2 in about a year. Am 21 now, still making progress, albeit slower. I've never had orthodontics and today I get compliments on "nice teeth" (only mild lower crowding) and "strong features". I'm certain if I had orthodontics, my face would look far far worse. Funny thing is, I still have a bit of a deep bite, and my maxilla is still technically around 10mm too far down and around 5mm too far back.

Very interesting experiences, what do you think of my own experience that I posted on TGW about placing the tongue more upwards to create more forward growth leverage. I've been able to successfully keep it there during sleep, which lead to good forward growth, though my ears did rotate CCW and my maxilla didn't rotate much(tiny bit CCW).

It did improve breathing a lot and especially side profile looks.

Only problem is it can cause TMJ because the mandible lightly being pushed backwards against the TMJ joint.

 

[Deleted member 8632]

You miss all of the chances you don't take. Ask yourself this: Do you have anything to lose? Can you mess up your face any more? If you drop 1 PSL now would it make a difference?


I know who's alt you are from TGW, that's obvious, but who's alt are you from this website .

Also interesting changes, I'll try lightly just lightly clenching with first molars forward.

Yeah I read this one, I think they copied this article from some Polish or Eastern European clinic that theorized that bruxism is caused by a soft diet and the body resists the soft diet.

It will make a big difference if i drop down a psl or fuck my perfectly straight teeth. Here is my side profile:

How is my maxilla and mandible? I turned 17 a week ago.

 

[Babushkacatlady]

I know who's alt you are from TGW, that's obvious, but who's alt are you from this website .

No alt from this website, just a lurker lol.

Very interesting experiences, what do you think of my own experience that I posted on TGW about placing the tongue more upwards to create more forward growth leverage. I've been able to successfully keep it there during sleep, which lead to good forward growth, though my ears did rotate CCW and my maxilla didn't rotate much(tiny bit CCW).

It did improve breathing a lot and especially side profile looks.

Only problem is it can cause TMJ because the mandible lightly being pushed backwards against the TMJ joint.

Ahhh ok I think I misread it. I would say if it works go for it. The one thing is that if you're pushing back against the joint you might wind up with condylar resorption (scary stuff).

 

[antiantifa]

It will make a big difference if i drop down a psl or fuck my perfectly straight teeth. Here is my side profile:

View attachment 978845View attachment 978846

How is my maxilla and mandible? I turned 17 a week ago.

Dunno, seems fine to me to me for 17 years old. I am no expert though. Your ears aren't ante though.

No alt from this website, just a lurker lol.


Ahhh ok I think I misread it. I would say if it works go for it. The one thing is that if you're pushing back against the joint you might wind up with condylar resorption (scary stuff).
View attachment 978851
View attachment 978852

It did work, but eventually the whole maxilla becomes so stretched out the tongue has no more passive leverage..

 

[Deleted member 12218]

I had TMJ from it as well, but it went away when I stopped, what if you just have to jut occasionally to make sure your TMJ has time to follow the changes?

Also I haven't met a single forward grown CCW maxilla rotated person who doesn't jut subconsciously, I usually ask to look at their teeth and there's obvious dental wear everywhere.

My ex's mother mogged me to death with her jaw, she used to have heavy bruxism at night where she'd just jut forward.

How long did you jut for? Did you make objective measurements? How can your memory be so bad btw you only said you were doing it just a few months ago.

@Copemaxxing has bruxism and has gigachad jaw.

I used to have tmj clicking on both sides but I have been practicing @betamanlets jutting theory and it’s 95% gone. If you look at old photos of mine, my jaw was slightly back which I think was just enough to cause tmd but on my profile you can see my jaw is forward enough now to not cause any problems.

 

[antiantifa]

I used to have tmj clicking on both sides but I have been practicing @betamanlets jutting theory and it’s 95% gone. If you look at old photos of mine, my jaw was slightly back which I think was just enough to cause tmd but on my profile you can see my jaw is forward enough now to not cause any problems.

How did you just? Choose one:

1. Pressure on all teeth.
2. Mostly pressure on incisors.
3. Most pressure on front half of palate.
4. Mostly pressure on first molar.
5. Mostly pressure on posterior half of palate.
6. Mostly pressure on third molar.
7. ??? Some other way ???

 

[Deleted member 12218]

How did you just? Choose one:

1. Pressure on all teeth.
2. Mostly pressure on incisors.
3. Most pressure on front half of palate.
4. Mostly pressure on first molar.
5. Mostly pressure on posterior half of palate.
6. Mostly pressure on third molar.
7. ??? Some other way ???

Well it’s been changing a lot because I’m 35 turns in my mse so you could imagine how different my bite is.

The first day I put mainly pressure on the front incisors but my 2 front teeth were really sore the next day so I changed to putting the majority of pressure around the premolars to first molar area with decent pressure on the front teeth.

Because of how tilted my back molars are, I can’t even make contact with them especially with the mse turning.

My strategy was to use only the masseters to push up the premolar area and the ptyersgoids to jut forward on the incisors as a way to push the whole maxilla forward so my mandible can come forward. I also realize sense doing this I can’t underbite as much I could do which could be evidence of my maxilla moving forwards. Hope this makes sense.

 

[antiantifa]

Well it’s been changing a lot because I’m 35 turns in my mse so you could imagine how different my bite is.

The first day I put mainly pressure on the front incisors but my 2 front teeth were really sore the next day so I changed to putting the majority of pressure around the premolars to first molar area with decent pressure on the front teeth.

Because of how tilted my back molars are, I can’t even make contact with them especially with the mse turning.

My strategy was to use only the masseters to push up the premolar area and the ptyersgoids to jut forward on the incisors as a way to push the whole maxilla forward so my mandible can come forward. I also realize sense doing this I can’t underbite as much I could do which could be evidence of my maxilla moving forwards. Hope this makes sense.

Ur the guy who got treatment and messed up his bite with CCW rotation?

 

[Deleted member 12218]

Ur the guy who got treatment and messed up his bite with CCW rotation?

No I’m still turning my mse. That other guy chewed on falim gum 8 hours a day. Although, I do occasionally chew on a dog toy with my inscisors and pre molars until my teeth get sore.

 

[antiantifa]

No I’m still turning my mse. That other guy chewed on falim gum 8 hours a day. Although, I do occasionally chew on a dog toy with my inscisors and pre molars until my teeth get sore.

Okay, thank you for sharing your experience, man.

 

[Copemaxxing]

this guy ccw mogs me

 

[EasternRightWinger15]

but instead specifically jut incisors against the incisors?

that's gross for me to even think about ot, when I have overbite and considerably larger upper incusors than rest of my teeth

 

[Baldingman1998]

The muscle that pulls your mandible forward also pulls your upper maxilla backward.

This is betamanlet's pic. Imagine there is a pull on the top of maxilla backward.

So jutting will make your mandable grow bit maxxila shrink inside face?? According to what you said

 

[ovosoundszn]

Bro this thread makes me feel like im on TGW, which has the most mentally ill userbase ive ever seen. All this bullshit won't get you results. Lmao

 

[PYT]

You miss all of the chances you don't take. Ask yourself this: Do you have anything to lose? Can you mess up your face any more? If you drop 1 PSL now would it make a difference?


I know who's alt you are from TGW, that's obvious, but who's alt are you from this website .

Also interesting changes, I'll try lightly just lightly clenching with first molars forward.

Yeah I read this one, I think they copied this article from some Polish or Eastern European clinic that theorized that bruxism is caused by a soft diet and the body resists the soft diet.

Don't underestimate one PSL point. One PSL point from 4 to 3 is life changing. The difference between a chance of a normal life to bullying and ridicule

 

[Asetric]

If you wanna move it lower, why would you push upwards?

 

[Deleted member 12218]

How would a palatal expander work if the limit if 50 grams. They only do like 1500 grams, and average swallow is 1800 grams.

According to my doctor(Dr Bockow):

Splitting mid palatial suture=900-4500g of force

Moving teeth=10-150g of force

According to the what I’ve learned channel:

The average person swallows with 2 pounds of force or 900g, 600 times a day

 

[Deleted member 12218]

900 grams of force? that is doable af if you hard mew consistently.

Yes, but if you have any contact with the teeth, it will just transfer the force into dental tipping.

 

[Deleted member 12218]

So no contact with the molars right?

Do you want to tip your teeth out?

 

[Deleted member 12218]

yes i do

 

[Deleted member 12218]

lmao

22Bones

 

[Deleted member 12218]

How much force on teeth would cause them to tip? If i press only on roof, will teeth still tip because tongue still touches molars

Yep, that’s what happened to my teeth. I haven’t seen anybody with a worse case than me. It’s what happens when somebody learns to mew with a narrow palate but their tongue doesn’t fit.

 

[Deleted member 12218]

My IMW is like 42mm so its not narrow, but tongue still touches molars although its not with much force. Will it fuck up my bite?

Might not if you keep your teeth in contact.

 

[Deleted member 12218]

Could teeth tipping be avoided just by keeping teeth in contact?

Theoretically it would make sense. You could push on the top molars with your tongue but the bottom molars could be able to pull them back in if they’re touching. Didn’t work for me because I’m pretty sure I have my teeth apart during the night

 

[Deleted member 12218]

Try sleeping without a pillow ngl. Help me with night time mouth breathing. Stand on a wall with feet and ass touching it. Then, get a pillow and put it behind your head. You will get forward head posture and find it harder to keep teeth together and not mouthbreathe. Ditch the pillow and maybe go on a yoga mat to keep ideal alignment. Read this thread too it talks about alignment a little.

https://looksmax.org/threads/easiest-way-to-mew-in-your-sleep.4713/

I’ve been sleeping without a pillow for 2 years now, recently switched from couch to yoga mat and gotta day it definitely feels a lot better on my back and neck.

 

[Deleted member 12218]

feels better on the neck, but shouldnt your teeth touch now?

It’s getting better, not an every night thing

 

[Deleted member 12218]

How bad is ur recession? do you have bone mass and are downswung or have none and have a caved in face

Small bones but ok placement, downswung by about a centimeter I’d say

 

[SPFromNY914]

Was a mouth breather for most of childhood due to big tonsils. Chewed a shit ton from age 16-18 for several hours a day. Did nothing for my class 2 and left me with chipmunk round jaw, but did help my ramus. Stopped doing that and just focused on tongue posture, jutting, lips together, and teeth gently together from 19-20 and fixed the class 2 in about a year. Am 21 now, still making progress, albeit slower. I've never had orthodontics and today I get compliments on "nice teeth" (only mild lower crowding) and "strong features". I'm certain if I had orthodontics, my face would look far far worse. Funny thing is, I still have a bit of a deep bite, and my maxilla is still technically around 10mm too far down and around 5mm too far back.My molars don't touch when I jut and I have a class 2, what should I do?

 

[Ocelot]

wont this cause TMJ derangements leading to issues later down the line?\

 

[betamanlet]

How would a palatal expander work if the limit if 50 grams. They only do like 1500 grams, and average swallow is 1800 grams.

The DNA and ALF appliances for example generate very light forces and expand the arches over time.

 

[antiantifa]

View attachment 979053 this guy ccw mogs me

No, you easily CCW mog him. Gigachad jaw + ridicilously short maxilla.

 

[antiantifa]

wont this cause TMJ derangements leading to issues later down the line?\

It might. Is it worth the risk? Fuck yeah.

Small bones but ok placement, downswung by about a centimeter I’d say
View attachment 979520View attachment 979521

Your side actually looks really well for a chin-tucked picture +rep for not pushing your mandible out.

 

[Deleted member 12218]

The DNA and ALF appliances for example generate very light forces and expand the arches over time.

If you’re an adult they’re basically just tipping teeth, suture growth from appliances only really happen when you’re young.

 

[betamanlet]

If you’re an adult they’re basically just tipping teeth, suture growth from appliances only really happen when you’re young.

They don't induce sutural growth, but rather remodeling of the alveolus. The simply mimic natural oral posture for those whose palates are too small for the tongue to do it.

 

[Deleted member 12218]

They don't induce sutural growth, but rather remodeling of the alveolus.

Now this, I’ve never heard of. The way I understood it was this, you can expand the palate in 2 ways, creating new growth at the suture/splitting suture, or tipping of teeth outwards while the roots remain in the same position.

 

[betamanlet]

Now this, I’ve never heard of. The way I understood it was this, you can expand the palate in 2 ways, creating new growth at the suture/splitting suture, or tipping of teeth outwards while the roots remain in the same position.

The suture is possibly the most convenient site of growth, but overall the palate is designed to adapt in accordance to the loads the teeth are subjected to. The teeth can quite freely shift through the alveolar bone and the shape of the bone will respond to that.

 

[Deleted member 12218]

The suture is possibly the most convenient site of growth, but overall the palate is designed to adapt in accordance to the loads the teeth are subjected to. The teeth can quite freely shift through the alveolar bone and the shape of the bone will respond to that.

View attachment 979704

Really cool gif. In the gif wouldn’t the roots of the teeth be in the exact same position though? Because if the maxilla didn’t widen, then the roots of the teeth would stay stationary because that’s what their connected to.

 

[Babushkacatlady]

The suture is possibly the most convenient site of growth, but overall the palate is designed to adapt in accordance to the loads the teeth are subjected to. The teeth can quite freely shift through the alveolar bone and the shape of the bone will respond to that.

View attachment 979704

Yes this is indeed the case. Sutures aren't the only mechanism of bone growth especially in the facial bones. One can literally grow bone anywhere with micro fracture and/or cell signaling provided it is at least mostly consistent. This isn't just in the alveolar bone either, it can be in the basal bone too, as it must be noted that the alveolar bone ends around the placement of the teeth.

 

[antiantifa]

Yes this is indeed the case. Sutures aren't the only mechanism of bone growth especially in the facial bones. One can literally grow bone anywhere with micro fracture and/or cell signaling provided it is at least mostly consistent. This isn't just in the alveolar bone either, it can be in the basal bone too, as it must be noted that the alveolar bone ends around the placement of the teeth.

DId you jut forward all the time or mostly upwards force on the first molars/premolars?

 

[Babushkacatlady]

DId you jut forward all the time or mostly upwards force on the first molars/premolars?

Jutted forward and some upward force on premolars and first molar area. The key when jutting is you don't want to go to an edge-to-edge bite, you just want to slide the mandible forward maintaining the molar/premolar contact until you hit the upper incisors, if that makes sense.

 

[antiantifa]

Jutted forward and some upward force on premolars and first molar area. The key when jutting is you don't want to go to an edge-to-edge bite, you just want to slide the mandible forward maintaining the molar/premolar contact until you hit the upper incisors, if that makes sense.

So basically you don't really want to jut forward against the incisors, instead you want to "latch" against the molars/premolars and then apply low amount of force forward while also applying even force upward?

 

[betamanlet]

So basically you don't really want to jut forward against the incisors, instead you want to "latch" against the molars/premolars and then apply low amount of force forward while also applying even force upward?

He is saying to jut against the backside of the upper incisors, instead of edge-to-edge/tip-to-tip incisor bite, then to additionally press upward with the premolars a little.

 

[antiantifa]

He is saying to jut against the backside of the upper incisors, instead of edge-to-edge/tip-to-tip incisor bite, then to additionally press upward with the premolars a little.

Okay, I've already been doing it for a while, I can already feel the typical TMJ incoming. I am going to lower my intensity a lot, but my problem is when the intensity is low I feel my mandible shaking against my teeth, like briefly disconnecting with the teeth.

 

[betamanlet]

Okay, I've already been doing it for a while, I can already feel the typical TMJ incoming. I am going to lower my intensity a lot, but my problem is when the intensity is low I feel my mandible shaking against my teeth, like briefly disconnecting with the teeth.

Try to use your lip seal to suck the mandible against the maxillary arch. That way no active force will have to be used.

 

[Babushkacatlady]

Okay, I've already been doing it for a while, I can already feel the typical TMJ incoming. I am going to lower my intensity a lot, but my problem is when the intensity is low I feel my mandible shaking against my teeth, like briefly disconnecting with the teeth.

There should be minimal intensity, it should be borderline passive with minimal muscle strain. But if this is a new posture, you might feel some tension there that should improve with time.

 

[antiantifa]

Try to use your lip seal to suck the mandible against the maxillary arch. That way no active force will have to be used.

Seems counter-intuitive, I can only do this lip seal vacuum by bringing the lower tip of my tongue down. Also I can feel it using the muscles attached to the styloid:

This would probably causes CCW rotation of the ears which is exactly what I don't want considering how CCW rotated my ears already are.

Look at this table of correlation between muscle CSA and various facial shapes:

As you can see the pterygoids are the only muscles significantly correlated to shorter cranial base length.
Only lateral pterygoids strongly associated with increase in lower third height and decrease in upper face height. The cranial base angle and prognathism is meant by this:

Where negative correlation is ideal for forward movement of lower third relative to the maxilla.


Interesting fact is just by looking at these correlations you can see that short face syndrome is caused by masseters(shorten both upper and lower face) and to some extent by temporalis(shorten upper face, but not lower third).

Overall the lateral pterygoids seem like the ideal muscle to hypertrophy for aesthetics for men and to also prevent most craniofacial disorders in all people.

"Putative bite force from the medial pterygoid muscle alone correlated positively with mandibular length and inversely with upper face height. When muscle and tooth moment arms were considered together, a system efficient at producing force on the first molar was statistically associated with a face having a large intergonial width, small intercondylar width, narrow dental arch, forward maxilla, and forward mandible."

There should be minimal intensity, it should be borderline passive with minimal muscle strain. But if this is a new posture, you might feel some tension there that should improve with time.

I'll see what happens overtime. I just hope my ears don't CCW rotate even more. Because I pushed my whole face forward with the tongue, the lower ear followed and I have elven ears basically.

 

[betamanlet]

I can only do this lip seal vacuum by bringing the lower tip of my tongue down.

You should also be able to do it by sliding the tip a bit higher, to the rugae or even slightly above them.

As you can see the pterygoids are the only muscles significantly correlated to shorter cranial base length.
Only lateral pterygoids strongly associated with increase in lower third height and decrease in upper face height.

Interesting. Seems like there definitely is something to this.

 

[antiantifa]

You should also be able to do it by sliding the tip a bit higher, to the rugae or even slightly above them.


Interesting. Seems like there definitely is something to this.

Makes sense in picture above.

Also in this picture you can see the sphenomandibularis muscle.

Also if we consider bone as a semi-solid matrix, there is no need for 24/7 loading, loading every few hours will force the matrix towards a certain shape, which will continue signalling for hours.

You can see from this graph of a study that it is actually undesirable to permanently load bones for bone remodeling, in fact smaller bone loads with smaller recovery times produced the most bone growth/bone strength(I am assuming bone strength mostly comes from growth), a whopping 350% increase:

Maybe Mike Mew and the whole TGW forum have been going about it the wrong way? Maybe mewing is counter-productive for long-term results and instead just properly swallowing which happens multiple times a minute and even during sleep is sufficient or even better than hard/soft continuous mewing.

I will experiment with this, instead of jutting constantly or keeping my tongue in a certain way I'll just relax it and then occasionally bite forwards + side-wards with a cloth.

I'll also try to improve my swallowing technique even further, right now I am still subconsciously swallowing using the rear third of the tongue because of Mike's BS, I am retraining my tongue to swallow forward while expanding sideways at the same time, also my mandible slightly uses lateral pterygoids with each swallow.

"Despite receiving less mechanical stimulation, the recovery group exhibited 73% greater work to failure than the group loaded for all three periods. Another benefit of the recovery protocol included a more advantageous geometric change in the ulnar diaphysis during the final stages of the experiment. Desensitization to mechanical loading appears to be an unavoidable consequence of mechanical stimulation, and it occurs on several time scales in bone."

Here bone strength/mass/re-modelling rate is significantly higher with less mechanical stimulation compared to constant mechnical stimulation. In fact as seen, the constant mechanical stimulation lead to bone resorption.

As for how this is relevant to the maxilla shape: it is quite simple, you can't push the maxilla forward without growing bones at the rear, you can't just leave a gaping hole. To me it makes sense that sphenoid growth will cause the maxilla to move forward, the ramus to increase in height and the posterior maxilla to increase in height as well.

I think ideal profile maximizes growth of the face: