Lip size dimorphism

[MisterMercedes]

Most research shows that males have larger lips than women:

https://watermark.silverchair.com/cjr033.pdf?token=AQECAHi208BE49Ooan9kkhW_Ercy7Dm3ZL_9Cf3qfKAc485ysgAAApgwggKUBgkqhkiG9w0BBwagggKFMIICgQIBADCCAnoGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAeBglghkgBZQMEAS4wEQQMeBBQrsxQ_pNKNUkcAgEQgIICS-hKR8gprxeHAL7nj9Qn6jbJL4Mf26lWgv09L0rHzk_jO_Ar2VDv9PKuPdJlhzRV2qcjfjdnd13__jNSRAV57nGhumb62veqSy8eyOd8thiI40hzxW6DXKc60Q4m9eIEJpxSRjDe0KTkfs7OBp8W0DqD5qH5M9gCpceRK3HIXmRlWIlznUHwQe8i5z_QiS5yVazlNjii38s5WpjEPmlfnZEddL_-1_8kut-Fsc9LXl_ImjaHE5yaUYgcIPoVWETZnr3VmDZu42_mq9lYzqsid8Sk33xgvz5VHR5rpfPiLOuE4ojhaELGZWQ2LtjdVGguYsVlG4guTDQ17CXpG3W5lC49cSuu08dsszQTsB01CKrixR8oouFzDdnZ3UJlhPW1CORGz57-Bm0h69sQyQD7FZj0WfNRCgI5xN_TC1-HOXBQ0oWkQ2Dhw8JE22Qn1eH2t8ayda5-mbbUSsY5VzgmPxksZqexVOMgF_P_nkoAkiW2CsRNEuk3SgxxeuAEFwRKcNOBwNXyqmk2BCK5jQVbjfkVaiSIJSjjl1Zss2j4bhXt0Mds2sw99xXbm0KgYmEBTJQYxhQwttbiQOtAYdEYa1ojBCzBrUGg0Mmsb_xnhI7jy9-8D6zbHVgSRpMACo6Kuk1kcd46qwkAMxVbUf0rPlM3ONsKAArlSK2BCHwSbLHs0RjYEpOsAXMFXTUo63cIyD-3g5OfMDga56qc-tXsDu0UTkwZJ9CfL6SozjWhdhP2nmmdV8UcipaySNIBa4mc_cHU8VOcqUCMY2uE

https://scielo.conicyt.cl/pdf/ijmorphol/v35n3/art09.pdf

However, most research regarding how hormones affect lip size suggest higher oestrogen levels lead to larger, fuller lips, and the opposite for high androgen levels:

Kennisgeving voor omleiding

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.2015.1351

Table 1 Facialmetric measurements a

Download Table | Facialmetric measurements a from publication: 2D:4D and Sexually Dimorphic Facial Characteristics | The second-to-fourth-digit ratio (2D:4D) may be related to prenatal testosterone and estrogen levels and pubertal face growth. Several studies have recently provided evidence that...

www.researchgate.net

High IQ users, what are your thoughts on this discrepancy?

 

[Copexodius Maximus]

 

[Deleted member 5656]

Absolute terms vs proportions

Men have larger lips in absolute terms because men have way bigger faces overall

But proportionally women’s lips are thicker

And lip size is something you perceive based off of how it is in proportion to the persons face

 

[MisterMercedes]

View attachment 1084244

I’ve read that, but it offers no actual research to support that. Only actual research I’ve seen on lip size shows male lips are slightly larger.

 

[MisterMercedes]

Absolute terms vs proportions

Men have larger lips in absolute terms because men have way bigger faces overall

But proportionally women’s lips are thicker

And lip size is something you perceive based off of how it is in proportion to the persons face

View attachment 1084239

That graph (which has problems) shows the female lips being larger in absolute terms.

The research on how hormones affect lip size suggest both proportional and absolute differences.

 

[MisterMercedes]

Another study I found on lip vermilion size dimorphism:

Identification of sex using lip prints : A clinical study

To determine the sex of an individual from the configuration of lip prints.This study was conducted on 200 first to final year BDS students of K. D. Dental College and Hospital, Mathura, Uttar Pradesh, India. All the subjects (females = 100, males = 100) ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

“Regarding the thickness of lip prints in males, the average thickness of the upper lip was 13.3 mm as compared to 9.5 mm in females; the average difference between males and females was 3.8 mm for the upper lip. The maximum and minimum thicknesses of the upper lip in males were found to be 18.9 mm and 12.5 mm, respectively. In females, the maximum and minimum thicknesses of the upper lip were found to be 14.6 mm and 7.0 mm, respectively.

The average thickness of the lower lip in males was 14.0 mm as compared to 11.1 mm in females, and the average difference between males and females was 2.9 mm for the lower lip. The maximum and minimum thicknesses of the lower lip in males were 16.9 mm and 11.5 mm, respectively. In females, the maximum and minimum thicknesses of the lower lip were 15.4 mm and 6.9 mm, respectively.”

 

[Deleted member 5656]

That graph (which has problems) shows the female lips being larger in absolute terms.

The research on how hormones affect lip size suggest both proportional and absolute differences.

I knew this response was coming, i started to put the explanation for this at the end but I didn’t for some reason. The reason why it shows male lips being smaller in absolute terms is because it doesn’t actually show absolute terms all the way. The gif focuses on the proportion/structure of the person’s face because that was the point of the study rather than skull size, so with their skull looking similar sizes (since they were meant to stay in frame to emphasize the structural/proportional differences) the males lips are going to look thinner in absolute terms. But in reality, their skull sizes would be massively different rather than how they appear to be similar in the gif, so you’d notice the male lips are larger in absolute terms

 

[MisterMercedes]

I knew this response was coming, i started to put the explanation for this at the end but I didn’t for some reason. The reason why it shows male lips being smaller in absolute terms is because it doesn’t actually show absolute terms all the way. The gif focuses on the proportion/structure of the person’s face because that was the point of the study rather than skull size, so with their skull looking similar sizes (since they were meant to stay in frame to emphasize the structural/proportional differences) the males lips are going to look thinner in absolute terms. But in reality, their skull sizes would be massively different rather than how they appear to be similar in the gif, so you’d notice the male lips are larger in absolute terms

Sorry but That didn’t make sense. That gif does show other clear absolute differences, such as mouth width. It clearly shows “masculine lips” as small in vertical size and wide, and the opposite for Female lips.

That gif isn’t really authoritative anyways. It shows a low inner eyebrow as a male dimorphic trait which is the opposite of reality.

What study is the gif based on?

 

[Deleted member 5656]

Sorry but That didn’t make sense. That gif does show other clear absolute differences, such as mouth width. It clearly shows “masculine lips” as small in vertical size and wide, and the opposite for Female lips.

That gif isn’t really authoritative anyways. It shows a low inner eyebrow as a male dimorphic trait which is the opposite of reality.

What study is the gif based on?

Those absolute differences are only noticeable because they are proportional differences as well. You notice the male mouth being wider. On the other hand there’s a discrepancy between masculine lip size proportionally and in analyze terms. Ok. You know how in real life, a masculine man would have a way bigger skull than a feminine woman? In the gif, their overall skull size does not change that much because it’s only focusing on facial structure. In reality, the male’s skull would be much bigger and the female’s would be much smaller so the absolute differences in lip thickness would be the opposite, since everything on the male’s face would be way bigger (and everything on the female’s face smaller)

And when I first saw these faces, I noticed the eyebrows were mistaken on dimorphism, but it is NOT because a low inner brow (glabella) is a female trait. You are completely wrong about that, male inner brows/glabellas are lower, because males ENTIRE brows are lower. His inner brow height IS masculine dimorphic, his eyebrows appear less dimorpjic because they did not move the outer brow/brow ridges lower in proportion, so his eyebrows are a mistake because they’re too positive tilted due to the outer brow being too high. And the inverse is true for the female face, they made the mistake of making her glabella lower set when women’s entire brow, outer and inner should be higher. This is why men have lower set brows across the board, male inner eyebrow regions appear much lower, just like the outer brow region.

And these morphs have been used in multiple studies, idk which is the orogininal I just got that gif from google image searching “masculine to feminine face gif” or something like that, but I’ll look for it

This is the only one I could find that has both the males and females, and before you start shitting on me I didn’t even read it so idk what it’s actually claiming, I just downloaded it for the visual differences

http://evolution.anthro.univie.ac.at/institutes/urbanethology/resources/articles/articles/publications/VictorBernhard2001.pdf

 

[MisterMercedes]

Those absolute differences are only noticeable because they are proportional differences as well. You notice the male mouth being wider. On the other hand there’s a discrepancy between masculine lip size proportionally and in analyze terms. Ok. You know how in real life, a masculine man would have a way bigger skull than a feminine woman? In the gif, their overall skull size does not change that much because it’s only focusing on facial structure. In reality, the male’s skull would be much bigger and the female’s would be much smaller so the absolute differences in lip thickness would be the opposite, since everything on the male’s face would be way bigger (and everything on the female’s face smaller)

And when I first saw these faces, I noticed the eyebrows were mistaken on dimorphism, but it is NOT because a low inner brow (glabella) is a female trait. You are completely wrong about that, male inner brows/glabellas are lower, because males ENTIRE brows are lower. His inner brow height IS masculine dimorphic, his eyebrows appear less dimorpjic because they did not move the outer brow/brow ridges lower in proportion, so his eyebrows are a mistake because they’re too positive tilted due to the outer brow being too high. And the inverse is true for the female face, they made the mistake of making her glabella lower set when women’s entire brow, outer and inner should be higher. This is why men have lower set brows across the board, male inner eyebrow regions appear much lower, just like the outer brow region.

And these morphs have been used in multiple studies, idk which is the orogininal I just got that gif from google image searching “masculine to feminine face gif” or something like that, but I’ll look for it

This is the only one I could find that has both the males and females, and before you start shitting on me I didn’t even read it so idk what it’s actually claiming, I just downloaded it for the visual differences

http://evolution.anthro.univie.ac.at/institutes/urbanethology/resources/articles/articles/publications/VictorBernhard2001.pdf

They did move the male’s outer brow lower.

Please don’t say inaccurate things like males have lower glabellas. The dimorphism of nasal bridge length and thus glabellar position isn’t even debatable for people who research it: males have longer, higher nasal bridges and thus higher glabellas.

Hyperfeminine low glabella:

Masculine high glabella:

Only thing you could argue is that thicker eyebrow makes the aesthetic glabella look lower, but that is true for the entire eyebrow.

As far as I can see that gif is nowwhere in the study, which simply says women prefer masculinized features.

 

[MisterMercedes]

They did move the male’s outer brow lower.

Please don’t say inaccurate things like males have lower glabellas. The dimorphism of nasal bridge length and thus glabellar position isn’t even debatable for people who research it: males have longer, higher nasal bridges and thus higher glabellas.

Hyperfeminine low glabella:

View attachment 1084315
Masculine high glabella:

View attachment 1084317
Only thing you could argue is that thicker eyebrow makes the aesthetic glabella look lower, but that is true for the entire eyebrow.

As far as I can see that gif is nowwhere in the study, which simply says women prefer masculinized features.

More on eyebrows dimorphism: males have thicker eyebrows All around which may make the entire brow look lower set.

However, in terms of bone structure, male eyebrows are not entirely lower set. The body or center is lower set due to low brow ridge, the head or medial portion is higher due to longer nasal bridge, and the tail or outer portion is higher due to higher cheekbones.

For women, it’s the opposite. High in the center, low in the medial and lateral parts, forming the arched shape.

 

[pizza]

basically its over for my lips

 

[Deleted member 6305]

Big lips look bad in men in general
it makes the chin look smaller

 

[Deleted member 5656]

They did move the male’s outer brow lower.

Please don’t say inaccurate things like males have lower glabellas. The dimorphism of nasal bridge length and thus glabellar position isn’t even debatable for people who research it: males have longer, higher nasal bridges and thus higher glabellas.

Hyperfeminine low glabella:

View attachment 1084315
Masculine high glabella:

View attachment 1084317
Only thing you could argue is that thicker eyebrow makes the aesthetic glabella look lower, but that is true for the entire eyebrow.

As far as I can see that gif is nowwhere in the study, which simply says women prefer masculinized features.

They moved the males outer eyebrow lower DISPROPORTIONATELY less than his inner brow, they moved the outer brow down a bit but his outer brow down a lot, his eyebrows look less masculine because they are too positive tilted. If they moved the outer brown down an equal amount his eyebrows would have been more neutral tilted and looked completely dimorphic

And I might be wrong, but I googled it and couldn’t find any studies saying anything about glabella height difference between sexes, so please link a source. You make claims without sources yet when I provide one it’s not enough. And like I said I got the gif off google images, it was just on imgur so I have no idea where it originally came from. And I wasn’t posting the gif for anything about a study, I was posting it to focus on the aesthetic differences between the lips.

You have now completely moved the goalposts, we were originally talking about lips where I agreed with you that male lips are bigger in absolute terms, but I posted a gif highlighting the differences between absolute terms and proportions, and you misunderstood that since you can’t see the skull size difference you can’t quantify how much bigger the male features are in absolute terms, so you started cherry-picking about the brows, when the entire point of the gif wasn’t to say that it’s a perfect representative of every single facial feature, I just posted it to highlight the masculine vs feminine lips, so I explained again that this gif can not truly quantify the absolute differences as much as the proportional differences since they are in the same frame, so in your most recent response you did not even address that and COMPLETELY changed the subject to brows.

I originally posted the gif to AGREE with you, to explain why you were right on the original premise of this thread but now we have devolved to you changing the subject to something completely different so you can prove that you’re smarter than me. Just because I’m a retard doesn’t mean I’m wrong about everything

 

[MisterMercedes]

They moved the males outer eyebrow lower DISPROPORTIONATELY less than his inner brow, they moved the outer brow down a bit but his outer brow down a lot, his eyebrows look less masculine because they are too positive tilted. If they moved the outer brown down an equal amount his eyebrows would have been more neutral tilted and looked completely dimorphic

And I might be wrong, but I googled it and couldn’t find any studies saying anything about glabella height difference between sexes, so please link a source. You make claims without sources yet when I provide one it’s not enough. And like I said I got the gif off google images, it was just on imgur so I have no idea where it originally came from. And I wasn’t posting the gif for anything about a study, I was posting it to focus on the aesthetic differences between the lips.

You have now completely moved the goalposts, we were originally talking about lips where I agreed with you that male lips are bigger in absolute terms, but I posted a gif highlighting the differences between absolute terms and proportions, and you misunderstood that since you can’t see the skull size difference you can’t quantify how much bigger the male features are in absolute terms, so you started cherry-picking about the brows, when the entire point of the gif wasn’t to say that it’s a perfect representative of every single facial feature, I just posted it to highlight the masculine vs feminine lips, so I explained again that this gif can not truly quantify the absolute differences as much as the proportional differences since they are in the same frame, so in your most recent response you did not even address that and COMPLETELY changed the subject to brows.

I originally posted the gif to AGREE with you, to explain why you were right on the original premise of this thread but now we have devolved to you changing the subject to something completely different so you can prove that you’re smarter than me. Just because I’m a retard doesn’t mean I’m wrong about everything

At this point you’re just making shit up about proportional differences. That gif shows that the male lips are smaller in absolute measurements. You can claim it’s because they needed to highlight the proportional differences, but that’s just an opinion without evidence.

With regard to the dimorphism of nasal bridge length and glabellar height (things that are dependent on each other), here you go:

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.2015.1351

Are gender differences in external noses caused by differences in nasal septal growth? - PubMed

Nasal septa and external noses were both larger in males than in females at the beginning of the study period, although not significantly. The differences became significant throughout the study due to differential increases between the sexes during the monitored growth spurts.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Assessment of frontal sinus dimensions to determine sexual dimorphism among Indian adults

Sex identification of unknown individuals is important in forensic sciences. At times when only skull remains are found and other means of identification fails, radiographs of frontal sinus can be used for identification. Frontal sinus morphology is unique ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[MisterMercedes]

At this point you’re just making shit up about proportional differences. That gif shows that the male lips are smaller in absolute measurements. You can claim it’s because they needed to highlight the proportional differences, but that’s just an opinion without evidence.

With regard to the dimorphism of nasal bridge length and glabellar height (things that are dependent on each other), here you go:

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.2015.1351

Are gender differences in external noses caused by differences in nasal septal growth? - PubMed

Nasal septa and external noses were both larger in males than in females at the beginning of the study period, although not significantly. The differences became significant throughout the study due to differential increases between the sexes during the monitored growth spurts.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Assessment of frontal sinus dimensions to determine sexual dimorphism among Indian adults

Sex identification of unknown individuals is important in forensic sciences. At times when only skull remains are found and other means of identification fails, radiographs of frontal sinus can be used for identification. Frontal sinus morphology is unique ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Another: https://storage.googleapis.com/plos...1351040f06d7122a2e1bc8cea03998128c3a72d2f410b

 

[Deleted member 5656]

At this point you’re just making shit up about proportional differences. That gif shows that the male lips are smaller in absolute measurements. You can claim it’s because they needed to highlight the proportional differences, but that’s just an opinion without evidence.

With regard to the dimorphism of nasal bridge length and glabellar height (things that are dependent on each other), here you go:

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.2015.1351

Are gender differences in external noses caused by differences in nasal septal growth? - PubMed

Nasal septa and external noses were both larger in males than in females at the beginning of the study period, although not significantly. The differences became significant throughout the study due to differential increases between the sexes during the monitored growth spurts.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Assessment of frontal sinus dimensions to determine sexual dimorphism among Indian adults

Sex identification of unknown individuals is important in forensic sciences. At times when only skull remains are found and other means of identification fails, radiographs of frontal sinus can be used for identification. Frontal sinus morphology is unique ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The point of the gif was not “it is right about everything” the point of the gif was to highlight male lips appearing smaller, followed by my statement that male lips are actually bigger in absolute terms, so I was literally posting that support your claim and provide visually quantifiable explanation to male lips appearing smaller but actually being larger in absolute terms due to bigger skulls causing everything on the face to be bigger.

And none of those studies explicitly state anything about males glabella/inner brow being higher or female’s being lower. The only evidence is evidence of that feature itself, just because they correlate does not mean it is perfectly 1:1, any evidence for a specific feature has to be for that specific feature, not simply a feature that correlates with it. I could just as easily say that because brow ridge/outer brow morphology correlates with inner brow/glabella morphology that it mean’s males are lower, but of course I’m the only one who’s not allowed to “make shit up”

 

[MisterMercedes]

The point of the gif was not “it is right about everything” the point of the gif was to highlight male lips appearing smaller, followed by my statement that male lips are actually bigger in absolute terms, so I was literally posting that support your claim and provide visually quantifiable explanation to male lips appearing smaller but actually being larger in absolute terms due to bigger skulls causing everything on the face to be bigger.

And none of those studies explicitly state anything about males glabella/inner brow being higher or female’s being lower. The only evidence is evidence of that feature itself, just because they correlate does not mean it is perfectly 1:1, any evidence for a specific feature has to be for that specific feature, not simply a feature that correlates with it. I could just as easily say that because brow ridge/outer brow morphology correlates with inner brow/glabella morphology that it mean’s males are lower, but of course I’m the only one who’s not allowed to “make shit up”

The study doesn’t have to say “males have higher inner eyebrows than women”. If you understand anatomy, you will realize a long nasal bridge means the glabella is higher, and thus the procerus muscle is higher, and thus the inner eyebrow is higher.

It’s like when research says that males have higher zygomatic arches, that anatomically requires that the zygomatic bone itself is higher relative to the frontal bone. The study doesn’t have to explicitly say “males have higher cheekbones than women”.

Your whole point about proportional differences being the reason some research says males have smaller lips has been null this whole time: the research I linked about hormone exposure suggests that high androgens make the lips proportionally and absolutely smaller, while research on actual adults shows males have larger lips in absolute measurements. That is the discrepancy that your gif (which contains inaccurate depictions of dimorphism) fails to address.

 

[Deleted member 5656]

The study doesn’t have to say “males have higher inner eyebrows than women”. If you understand anatomy, you will realize a long nasal bridge means the glabella is higher, and thus the procerus muscle is higher, and thus the inner eyebrow is higher.

It’s like when research says that males have higher zygomatic arches, that anatomically requires that the zygomatic bone itself is higher relative to the frontal bone. The study doesn’t have to explicitly say “males have higher cheekbones than women”.

Your whole point about proportional differences being the reason some research says males have smaller lips has been null this whole time: the research I linked about hormone exposure suggests that high androgens make the lips proportionally and absolutely smaller, while research on actual adults shows males have larger lips in absolute measurements. That is the discrepancy that your gif (which contains inaccurate depictions of dimorphism) fails to address.

I do understand anatomy, I’m saying that just because the two features are roughly correlated does not mean that one is a slave to the other. The zygomatic comparison is unfair because zygomatic arches are the exact same piece of bone as the zygomatic bone itself, technically the back part of the arch is considered part of the temporal bone but even then the entire arch is still just one strip of bone with the zygomatic bone. Whereas the glabella is not just a piece of the nasal bone, they are different structures that are roughly correlated, the glabella is also connected with the brow ridges as well so that’s why I’m saying this is not evidence. At the end of the day, evidence for a feature has to be evidence for that specific feature, not just one that is correlated. Your studies do not actually say anything about male inner eyebrows being higher, you cannot say your own rough deduction is actual evidence.

Also congratulations, the study’s was wrong. Good thing the study itself had nothing to do with my original point. Like I said, I got the gif from an imgur link off google images because the entire point was to highlight the aesthetic differences, the study was not even in the link, so what the statements claimed in the study itself had nothing to do with what I was originally trying to say, I was just posting it because I agreed with your original premise and wanted an image to visually quantify the dimorphic differences. I only found and linked the study because you pressed me for it, I didn’t even remotely state that the study had everything correct

And a dimorphic man’s lips can be smaller in absolute terms compared to a less dimorphic man while still being larger in absolute term’s than a female’s. Androgens can easily shrink male lips absolutely while the shrinkage is still not enough to make them as small absolutely as a female’s. The two are not mutually exclusive.

 

[MisterMercedes]

I do understand anatomy, I’m saying that just because the two features are roughly correlated does not mean that one is a slave to the other. The zygomatic comparison is unfair because zygomatic arches are the exact same piece of bone as the zygomatic bone itself, technically the back part of the arch is considered part of the temporal bone but even then the entire arch is still just one strip of bone with the zygomatic bone. Whereas the glabella is not just a piece of the nasal bone, they are different structures that are roughly correlated, the glabella is also connected with the brow ridges as well so that’s why I’m saying this is not evidence. At the end of the day, evidence for a feature has to be evidence for that specific feature, not just one that is correlated. Your studies do not actually say anything about male inner eyebrows being higher, you cannot say your own rough deduction is actual evidence.

Also congratulations, the study’s was wrong. Good thing the study itself had nothing to do with my original point. Like I said, I got the gif from an imgur link off google images because the entire point was to highlight the aesthetic differences, the study was not even in the link, so what the statements claimed in the study itself had nothing to do with what I was originally trying to say, I was just posting it because I agreed with your original premise and wanted an image to visually quantify the dimorphic differences. I only found and linked the study because you pressed me for it, I didn’t even remotely state that the study had everything correct

And a dimorphic man’s lips can be smaller in absolute terms compared to a less dimorphic man while still being larger in absolute term’s than a female’s. Androgens can easily shrink male lips absolutely while the shrinkage is still not enough to make them as small absolutely as a female’s. The two are not mutually exclusive.

The zygomatic arch (technically zygomatic process of temporal) is not part of the zygomatic bone. It is attached to the zygomatic bone.

The glabella is also attached to the nasal bridge, why is why there’s a landmark called the fronto-nasal suture. When the nasal bridge grows, the glabella is positioned higher.

Low vs high glabella

I’m glad you acknowledge the gif is not reliable, but you’re still missing the point. The gif is irrelevant as it doesn’t address research that claims higher androgens lead to smaller lips in both absolute and proportional terms.

If high androgens made lips smaller and high oestrogens made lips larger, women should, on average, have larger lips than males as they have higher oestrogen levels than males. However, all research on the dimorphism of vermilion size shows males have larger lips.

This is the discrepancy I am trying to solve, and again, your gif fails to address it.

 

[Deleted member 5656]

The zygomatic arch (technically zygomatic process of temporal) is not part of the zygomatic bone. It is attached to the zygomatic bone.

The glabella is also attached to the nasal bridge, why is why there’s a landmark called the fronto-nasal suture. When the nasal bridge grows, the glabella is positioned higher.

View attachment 1084531
Low vs high glabella

I’m glad you acknowledge the gif is not reliable, but you’re still missing the point. The gif is irrelevant as it doesn’t address research that claims higher androgens lead to smaller lips in both absolute and proportional terms.

If high androgens made lips smaller and high oestrogens made lips larger, women should, on average, have larger lips than males as they have higher oestrogen levels than males. However, all research on the dimorphism of vermilion size shows males have larger lips.

This is the discrepancy I am trying to solve, and again, your gif fails to address it.

They are still not the exact same bone, so to prove that one feature behaves a certain way a study has to explicitly say that for that specific bone. The glabella is also connected to the brow bones so plenty of people can have higher nasal bridges but lower inner brows. It has to be taken into account that since the inner eyebrows are also connected to the outer eyebrows, not only the nasal structure, some people can have low set inner brows due to having low set outer brows Look how the white dude has a higher nose bridge yet his inner brows literally sit right on top of his eye because his brow ridges are more prominent and lower set, the black guy has a lower nose bridge and more prominent glabella yet his inner brows are higher:

And I’m not missing the point dude. Please listen when I say for the millionth time I only put the gif literally just to visualize the female lips looking thicker and the male lips looking smaller. I did not put it their to explain how the males androgens get from his balls to his lips. If it was meant to explain the research I would have put something with its own research attached. Purely visual things like the gif I posted are purely for that reason. Optics only.

Also, think about it like this. If you took your skull and made it smaller absolutely it would still be absolutely bigger than a woman’s right? If you took your nose and made it absolutely smaller it would still be absolutely bigger than a woman’s right? Think about how trannies get ffs to make their male features absolutely smaller yet they’re still absolutely bigger than a biological female’s. Why would the lips be any different? With a man’s skull being so much bigger, a feature can shrink, such as the lips shrinking absolutely due to androgens, while STILL being bigger absolutely than a woman’s.

 

[MisterMercedes]

They are still not the exact same bone, so to prove that one feature behaves a certain way a study has to explicitly say that for that specific bone. The glabella is also connected to the brow bones so plenty of people can have higher nasal bridges but lower inner brows. It has to be taken into account that since the inner eyebrows are also connected to the outer eyebrows, not only the nasal structure, some people can have low set inner brows due to having low set outer brows Look how the white dude has a higher nose bridge yet his inner brows literally sit right on top of his eye because his brow ridges are more prominent and lower set, the black guy has a lower nose bridge and more prominent glabella yet his inner brows are higher:
View attachment 1084545View attachment 1084546

And I’m not missing the point dude. Please listen when I say for the millionth time I only put the gif literally just to visualize the female lips looking thicker and the male lips looking smaller. I did not put it their to explain how the males androgens get from his balls to his lips. If it was meant to explain the research I would have put something with its own research attached. Purely visual things like the gif I posted are purely for that reason. Optics only.

Also, think about it like this. If you took your skull and made it smaller absolutely it would still be absolutely bigger than a woman’s right? If you took your nose and made it absolutely smaller it would still be absolutely bigger than a woman’s right? Think about how trannies get ffs to make their male features absolutely smaller yet they’re still absolutely bigger than a biological female’s. Why would the lips be any different? With a man’s skull being so much bigger, a feature can shrink, such as the lips shrinking absolutely due to androgens, while STILL being bigger absolutely than a woman’s.

“They are still not the exact same bone, so to prove that one feature behaves a certain way a study has to explicitly say that for that specific bone”

This is true if you don’t understand skull Anatomy, but otherwise false. See my example of zygomatic arch and zygomatic bone.

“The glabella is also connected to the brow bones so plenty of people can have higher nasal bridges but lower inner brows.”

And you just demonstrated a lack of understanding of anatomy. The “inner brow ridge”, which doesn’t exist, doesn’t determine inner eyebrow position. The procerus muscle does, and that is attached to the glabella.

“Look how the white dude has a higher nose bridge yet his inner brows literally sit right on top of his eye because his brow ridges are more prominent and lower set, the black guy has a lower nose bridge and more prominent glabella yet his inner brows are higher”

And again, you are incorrect about basic anatomy. Jon Jones has a higher nasal bridge, that’s why his inner eyebrow his higher:

Your example of a transgender doesn’t work. Let’s say a male has a large brow ridge. Shrinking that to a smaller one would not be a result of androgens, even if it was still bigger than a woman’s after the shrinking. Androgens make brow ridge bigger, and the research I linked says they also make lips smaller. Again, if males have higher androgens, androgens make lips smaller, estrogens make lips larger, women have higher estrogen, then women should, on average, have larger lips than males, but the opposite is true.

 

[Deleted member 5656]

“They are still not the exact same bone, so to prove that one feature behaves a certain way a study has to explicitly say that for that specific bone”

This is true if you don’t understand skull Anatomy, but otherwise false. See my example of zygomatic arch and zygomatic bone.

“The glabella is also connected to the brow bones so plenty of people can have higher nasal bridges but lower inner brows.”

And you just demonstrated a lack of understanding of anatomy. The “inner brow ridge”, which doesn’t exist, doesn’t determine inner eyebrow position. The procerus muscle does, and that is attached to the glabella.

“Look how the white dude has a higher nose bridge yet his inner brows literally sit right on top of his eye because his brow ridges are more prominent and lower set, the black guy has a lower nose bridge and more prominent glabella yet his inner brows are higher”

And again, you are incorrect about basic anatomy. Jon Jones has a higher nasal bridge, that’s why his inner eyebrow his higher:

View attachment 1084554
View attachment 1084555
Your example of a transgender doesn’t work. Let’s say a male has a large brow ridge. Shrinking that to a smaller one would not be a result of androgens, even if it was still bigger than a woman’s after the shrinking. Androgens make brow ridge bigger, and the research I linked says they also make lips smaller. Again, if males have higher androgens, androgens make lips smaller, estrogens make lips larger, women have higher estrogen, then women should, on average, have larger lips than males, but the opposite is true.

Ok, if I don’t understand anatomy and therefore glabella and nasal bone are the exact same simply because they are connected, then that also means the brow ridges and glabella are the exact same thing since they are also connected.
The glabella directly connects to both therefore both influence it, therefore evidence of glabella morphology has to be for the glabella itself. In reality the only cold hard evidence is that which applies to the specific subject, not just something which is correlated, especially when another correlation exists.

Also I didn’t say “inner brow ridge” is a thing, I did not even use that term.. I said “inner brows” literally referring to the inner portion of the eyebrows. Once again you put words in my mouth to prove how stupid I am, and this is the entire reason you completely changed the subject. And I don’t see how that angle between the inner brow and the medial canthal region proves that Jon Jones has a higher nose bridge. And it’s not even just the nose bridge, it’s also the nasion/radix, that’s what actually connects the nasal bone and glabella, and Jon jones has a lower radix. The nasal bone doesn’t stop where the inner point of your angle does, it goes higher than that, all the way between the eyes.

Also, my example of the transgender was not to say that their reduction of masculine featues means that it’s somehow the result of androgens. It was literally just to display the point that a feature shrinking in absolute terms on a male skull can still be absolutely bigger than a female’s even after shrinking. I did not even remotely imply that androgens somehow shrink the brow ridge, now you are completely accusing me of shit you made up to fit your desires. My example of those features shrinking did not remotely mean that they are shrinking because of androgens like the lips, simply that when shrunken they can still be bigger than a woman’s. That’s literally it, you are extrapolating things from your imagination and projecting them onto me because this entire argument has been you stroking your cock wanting to make me look stupid when we have already established that you’re smarter than me, yet you keep bringing up new things. Again, if a males lips shrink due to androgens, and a female’s lips grow due to estrogen, then the male’s may still be bigger simply because on his way more massive skull everything will be bigger by default. Idk what other fucking explanation you want. The research YOU posted made those claims, I am just explaining it using common sense. Let me reiterate. A male has a much bigger skull than a female. The face is part of the skull. Therefore all features by default will be astronomically larger on a male’s face than on a female’s face. Therefore, even if the female’s grows, and the male’s shrinks, the male’s could still be bigger. Idk why this is so hard to understand. You are so good at stroking your own ego for skull anatomy, putting words in my mouth to feel superior to me, yet you can’t understand common sense. A male’s lips shrinking in absolutes means that they are shrinking in absolutes for HIM, a MALE, with a MASSIVE face compared to the female. A female’s lips growing in absolutes means that they are growing in absolutes for HER, a FEMALE, with a TINY face compared to the male. Therefore the male’s can still be bigger. What is so hard about this understand? For example imagine if you take a chad with an 8 incher and a soy boy with a 2 incher, if you give the chad a bunch of test blockers and estrogen boosters to shrink his dick then give the soy boy dht gel to grow his dick, the trannymaxed chad would still have a bigger dick than the dhtmaxxed soyboy. Just like a feature on a male’s enormous face can shrink and a feature on a female’s tiny face can grow, yet the male’s will still be bigger. I’m done here. This will be my last response, You will respond again, get the last laugh, feel superior and it will be over. Clearly everything I’ve said is futile because you purposely refuse to understand what I’m saying, while arguing against shit I didn’t even say or even remotely imply, and you are doing this to fit your DESIRE which is to feel intellectually superior, and it sure worked. Especially the parts with “proving me wrong” on shit that I neither explicitly stated nor even remotely implied to the slightest extent, but rather phrases and arguments that you COMPLETELY fabricated and accused me of. This is my fault for not looking at the details tbh, I should’ve realized this was your intention when your responses to my orgininal post supporting your premise was nothing full changing the subjec, feigning ignorance and arguing against me for trying to help support your claims. You win.

 

[MisterMercedes]

Ok, if I don’t understand anatomy and therefore glabella and nasal bone are the exact same simply because they are connected, then that also means the brow ridges and glabella are the exact same thing since they are also connected.
The glabella directly connects to both therefore both influence it, therefore evidence of glabella morphology has to be for the glabella itself. In reality the only cold hard evidence is that which applies to the specific subject, not just something which is correlated, especially when another correlation exists.

Also I didn’t say “inner brow ridge” is a thing, I did not even use that term.. I said “inner brows” literally referring to the inner portion of the eyebrows. Once again you put words in my mouth to prove how stupid I am, and this is the entire reason you completely changed the subject. And I don’t see how that angle between the inner brow and the medial canthal region proves that Jon Jones has a higher nose bridge. And it’s not even just the nose bridge, it’s also the nasion/radix, that’s what actually connects the nasal bone and glabella, and Jon jones has a lower radix. The nasal bone doesn’t stop where the inner point of your angle does, it goes higher than that, all the way between the eyes.
View attachment 1084585

Also, my example of the transgender was not to say that their reduction of masculine featues means that it’s somehow the result of androgens. It was literally just to display the point that a feature shrinking in absolute terms on a male skull can still be absolutely bigger than a female’s even after shrinking. I did not even remotely imply that androgens somehow shrink the brow ridge, now you are completely accusing me of shit you made up to fit your desires. My example of those features shrinking did not remotely mean that they are shrinking because of androgens like the lips, simply that when shrunken they can still be bigger than a woman’s. That’s literally it, you are extrapolating things from your imagination and projecting them onto me because this entire argument has been you stroking your cock wanting to make me look stupid when we have already established that you’re smarter than me, yet you keep bringing up new things. Again, if a males lips shrink due to androgens, and a female’s lips grow due to estrogen, then the male’s may still be bigger simply because on his way more massive skull everything will be bigger by default. Idk what other fucking explanation you want. The research YOU posted made those claims, I am just explaining it using common sense. Let me reiterate. A male has a much bigger skull than a female. The face is part of the skull. Therefore all features by default will be astronomically larger on a male’s face than on a female’s face. Therefore, even if the female’s grows, and the male’s shrinks, the male’s could still be bigger. Idk why this is so hard to understand. You are so good at stroking your own ego for skull anatomy, putting words in my mouth to feel superior to me, yet you can’t understand common sense. A male’s lips shrinking in absolutes means that they are shrinking in absolutes for HIM, a MALE, with a MASSIVE face compared to the female. A female’s lips growing in absolutes means that they are growing in absolutes for HER, a FEMALE, with a TINY face compared to the male. Therefore the male’s can still be bigger. What is so hard about this understand? For example imagine if you take a chad with an 8 incher and a soy boy with a 2 incher, if you give the chad a bunch of test blockers and estrogen boosters to shrink his dick then give the soy boy dht gel to grow his dick, the trannymaxed chad would still have a bigger dick than the dhtmaxxed soyboy. Just like a feature on a male’s enormous face can shrink and a feature on a female’s tiny face can grow, yet the male’s will still be bigger. I’m done here. This will be my last response, You will respond again, get the last laugh, feel superior and it will be over. Clearly everything I’ve said is futile because you purposely refuse to understand what I’m saying, while arguing against shit I didn’t even say or even remotely imply, and you are doing this to fit your DESIRE which is to feel intellectually superior, and it sure worked. Especially the parts with “proving me wrong” on shit that I neither explicitly stated nor even remotely implied to the slightest extent, but rather phrases and arguments that you COMPLETELY fabricated and accused me of. This is my fault for not looking at the details tbh, I should’ve realized this was your intention when your responses to my orgininal post supporting your premise was nothing full changing the subjec, feigning ignorance and arguing against me for trying to help support your claims. You win.

“Ok, if I don’t understand anatomy and therefore glabella and nasal bone are the exact same simply because they are connected, then that also means the brow ridges and glabella are the exact same thing since they are also connected.”

No it just means that their position will affect each other.

Your insistence that the study must say “males have higher inner eyebrows” is just a weak attempt at holding your position. If you understand anatomy, you understand a longer nasal bridge anatomically requires a higher glabella. Same way a higher “zygomatic arch” requires a higher zygomatic bone, elongated zygomatic process of maxilla requires wider malar surfaces, etc.

“And I don’t see how that angle between the inner brow and the medial canthal region proves that Jon Jones has a higher nose bridge.”

And again, I am having to teach you anatomy. Medial canthal ligament is attached to frontal process of maxilla which is attached to nasal bridge. When nasal bridge grows, frontal process of maxilla grows, and the medial can that ligament and thus medial can thus is positioned higher.

This is why babies have low medial can thi:

“And it’s not even just the nose bridge, it’s also the nasion/radix, that’s what actually connects the nasal bone and glabella, and Jon jones has a lower radix.”

I would consider not making any claims about bone structure until you research a lot more. The nasion is literally just an aesthetic landmark that refers to the frontonasal suture. Where nasal bridge and glabella end, there the “nasion” is, which is literally just a suture. The higher your nasal bridge, the higher the nasion.

The reason you think Jones has a lower nasal bridge is because his nasal bridge is weak in projection relative to his brow ridge. This is a common African American trait.

Momoa has the same thing:

I stopped reading your rant/episode when you mentioned stroking my cock, but I will say this: if your mention of how small lips for a male could still be larger than a female’s wasn’t meant to address the discrepancy that this post is about, I really don’t know why you raised it at all.

 

[MisterMercedes]

“Ok, if I don’t understand anatomy and therefore glabella and nasal bone are the exact same simply because they are connected, then that also means the brow ridges and glabella are the exact same thing since they are also connected.”

No it just means that their position will affect each other.

Your insistence that the study must say “males have higher inner eyebrows” is just a weak attempt at holding your position. If you understand anatomy, you understand a longer nasal bridge anatomically requires a higher glabella. Same way a higher “zygomatic arch” requires a higher zygomatic bone, elongated zygomatic process of maxilla requires wider malar surfaces, etc.

“And I don’t see how that angle between the inner brow and the medial canthal region proves that Jon Jones has a higher nose bridge.”

And again, I am having to teach you anatomy. Medial canthal ligament is attached to frontal process of maxilla which is attached to nasal bridge. When nasal bridge grows, frontal process of maxilla grows, and the medial can that ligament and thus medial can thus is positioned higher.

This is why babies have low medial can thi:

View attachment 1084627
“And it’s not even just the nose bridge, it’s also the nasion/radix, that’s what actually connects the nasal bone and glabella, and Jon jones has a lower radix.”

I would consider not making any claims about bone structure until you research a lot more. The nasion is literally just an aesthetic landmark that refers to the frontonasal suture. Where nasal bridge and glabella end, there the “nasion” is, which is literally just a suture. The higher your nasal bridge, the higher the nasion.

The reason you think Jones has a lower nasal bridge is because his nasal bridge is weak in projection relative to his brow ridge. This is a common African American trait.

Momoa has the same thing:

View attachment 1084632View attachment 1084633
I stopped reading your rant/episode when you mentioned stroking my cock, but I will say this: if your mention of how small lips for a male could still be larger than a female’s wasn’t meant to address the discrepancy that this post is about, I really don’t know why you raised it at all.

And, just to again show that your perception of Jones having a shorter nasal bridge is inaccurate:

Notice how the difference in angles is almost identical to the difference of the angle created by medial canthi? Almost like they’re anatomically dependent on each other.