Male attractiveness is ultimately rooted in the perceived ability to be a hunter

[Prettyboy]

Abstract

Throughout the years of being on PSL, I have read numerous threads about what makes a man attractive - some of it were really thought provoking, others less so, while others were just empirically not correct and reflected a personal bias from the poster's own life. Long story short, I was not satisfied with how logically inconsistent some ot the claims were, so hereby I propose a logical framework, from which attractiveness can be judged. In my mind, the closer a man is to being a perfect hunter genetically, the better he will fare in the walks of life, be it romantically, in his career or socially.​

A little historical context

To understand where I will be coming from further down, first let's talk a bit about the traditional way humans lived versus how patriarchy affected the socieites throughout the world until very recently, when the sexual liberation of women started to bring humanity back to it's archaic roots at a societal level. With the start of the agriculture in ancient times, humans started to eat food for cheap calories which they haver never eaten before - plants, more specifically grains, legumes and vegetables. With possessions becoming inheritable, the instituion of marriage was created, hence the provider role of men emerged; this replaced men's previous duty: being outside in the wilderness during the day with their male peers, in order to hunt for animals which can be brought back to their family, where the women were ready to prepare the fresh game. Patriarchy, through the creation of organized religions, have kept female sexuality at bay until very recently - this allowed men to gain the ability to mate by following a meritocratic logic. Institutions and laws like paying dowry to her dad or punishing adultery has ensured that ultimately men that contributed toward the community reproduced, while rogue ones mostly not. Fast forward into 2024, patriarchy is dead in the West, hence the chains on female sexuality are broken, which means they now get to choose again the men they always found physically attractive - the ones that resemble the archaic hunter the most.

Being a genetically good hunter has many contributing attributes, which encompasse both physical and mental characteristics. To make it articulate, I will break these into three parts:​

• Body​
• Mental​
• Face​

(although keep in mind everything is interconnected as a system, as we are talking about the human body)


First, body.

The female body at it's core is rather simple to describe - from head to toe it is specialized to give birth and raise the children until puberty kicks in; in contrast, the male body is like a Swiss knife - it is equipped outrun preys, fight animals & other men, conquer the wildneress through muscle power / agility / endurance, build and to to destroy. These can be categorized into two general functions: mobility and fighting.

Mobility involves running both sprints and distance, jumping, swimming etc. - mostly things that you would find in the agenda of an athletics competition; which already explains which is the most desirable body type for women: the one that of a classical athlete. Some key characteristics contributing to being a good athlete are:​

• Being lean, above all - every single gram of excess fat is a handicap to your mobility.
• Wide shoulders combined with a narrow waist - the torque this combination generates is crucial both for running and throwing things
• Muscle insertions - they imply potential power output, e.g. in the case of calves and sprinting

The most attractive male physiques (involving solo mobility sports) belong to sprinters - look for those short-distance athletes who compete in the 100m, 200m and 400m races. Noticeable mentions are javelin throwers, long jumpers and in some cases, olympic swimmers too.

Fighting in nature can occur against a beast or against a rival man, as part of the mating competition. Some physical traits that contribute to a higher fighting success:​

• Skeletal size (stature) - most importantly, being simply bigger than the other man already gives you the upperhand in the fight
• Reach / limb length - having longer extremities grants your punches and kicks an opportunity to reach the opponent before he can do anything against it
• Wrist size - robust wrists are a prerequisite for strong punching power and are a strong indicative of your skeleton's overall robustness
• High proportion of fast-twitch muscle fibers - like with sprinting, posessing overwhelmingly these type of slow-twitch fibers gives you an explosive & power output advantage

For the male physiques with the highest fighting success, look for the competitors in the most potent combat sports: boxing, thai boxing, kick boxing, wrestling.

The ideal male physique hence is one that either excels in either one of these two, or makes a powerful compromise between them. Now professional sportsmen choose their distinct sports based on their body's genetical predispositon and then excel in that one sport. Just like them, we too are all born with different bodies, which may give us advantages or disadvantages in different disciplines. In general, however if you want an ideal, archaic hunter phyique that women find the most appealing, you should choose sports from power athletics and fighting sports mostly - feel free to mix them up: as I said in the beginning, the male body is supposed to be like a Swiss knive. Combining sprinting with boxing for example is a fantastic combination. But you also need contitioning, else you won't have the necessary muscles to do these - which brings us to the next point, weightlifting.

Weightlifting in the gym is a modern shortcut for muscular hypertrophy and should be treated as such, it is streamlined to stimulate progressive overload in a controlled environment - it is anything, but archaic. Training in the gym has become necessary as most of us live otherwise sedentary lifestyles - but always treat it as not an end goal on itself but as a road to athleticism.

We cannot go further without mentioning the female vs the male gaze at this point. The previous paragraphs about general athleticism broadly speaking encompassed what the overwhelming majority of healthy women find attractive in a man - hence the term, female gaze. If we went back in time a century ago, this whole paragraph would have been pointless to write as the female & male idea of male attractiveness would have been convergent. With the advent of anabolic steroids in the 20th century however, this has changed. Deeply rooted in homosexuality, first anabolic steroids, then later subtances like - human growth hormone - gave rise to a divergence in the female & male perception of the ideal male physique. Women's biology- obviously - didn't change in under a century, so at this day of age in 2024, they find the same athletic, hunter bodies the most attractive as they found in prehistoric times. Big bulging physiques from steroid abuse give women the ick; if you goal is not to be celebrated by the homosexual community, then stick to being natural and concentrate on being as lean as possible, while building muscle defitions that helps you being athletic.​

Second, mental.

In the previous section, I have written about what gives a man the necesarry physical base to be a succesful hunter. However, humanity has risen to be the apex predator of this planet because we possess something that other animals don't: our evolved brains allows us to effectively communicate and cooperate with each other, which makes a predatpr that all others fear in the wild. Alone, we are easily overpowered by many animals - even the world's fastest man is made a joke by just about any quadrupedal animal in a sprint; or like how a chimpanzee can rip a person's arm off due to the difference in our central nervous systems. We function best as a part of a tribe. Male & male bonding is more ad hoc than female & female, because the relationship between men ultimately boils down to being hunting mates. Men build connection with each other under struggle and hardship they go through with each other - a hunt. The friends you surround yourself with, your work colleagues, your teammates, they all represent a hunting group in an abstract sense; and just like the old archaic hunting days, contemporary male groups also always involve a hierarchy - even if it isn't written anywhere, there is always a leader, many followers, foot soldiers at the bottom.

A little throwback to sports - make no mistake, it's not a coincidence, that the most popular, most widely celebrated sports worlwide are team sports where athleticism is highly involved. The needed mobility showcases to women the sportmen's physical ability, while their team work shows their ability to cooperate. Football (association & American), basketball (NBA), rugby, cricket etc. are watched by billions of heavily involved fans worlwide because these sports all represent a modern, abstract way of hunting. The two competing teams of players in women's brains are two rival hunting groups - the genetically better one wins.

This is why being neurotypical and an extrovert are so crucial. By having the same general brain structure as the majority of people, the group has strong cohesion as everyone conforms to the social hierachy, follows the unwritten social rules, so that the group can accomplish the hunt (which in today's world might be a work / school project for example).

Women hate neurodivergent and otherwise atypical men because they represent a disruption in the group mechanics - for example a group of autists would make a terrible hunting gang as everyone would have difficulty in communication with each other and their divergent personalities would clash with each other, resulting in an unsucessful hunt.​

Third, the face.

While face is the most imporant out of anything the human body encompasses, I intentionally left it to be the last of the three, because ot already reflects basically everything about the other two. It tells everything about your physical condition:

• Hollow cheeks with a chiseled, angular jawline signal that you are lean, meaning you excel in mobility
• Hunter eyes combined with compact eye sockets, a robust mandible, prominent browridge, wide neck etc. - all signs that you possess higher than average fighting chance

Likewise, your mental state is readable from your facial (micro)expressions - a woman is able to gauge within milliseconds just by taking a glance at your face whether you are neurotypical or neurodivergent, confident or an abused dog.

Face is the most important because as soon as humans have stopped hunting solitarity and gathered into hunting groups, the physical attributes no longer were the only determinants of hunting success. Ever since, looking at each other's face is used to quickly & efficiently create the hierarchy withing the hunting group, so the hunt (in modern terms the work, activity etc.) can begin. This is why ever since that point, not only the visible mobility and fighting success indicators of the face matter, but also it's perceived ability to socialize with other people. For example a person with gigantism might have fantastic fighting ability with their large, bony skull, but their face probably provokes much less trust in the eyes of another person, than if their face was more harmonious and refined. A male face might not have a high perceived fight success score, but it's symmetry signal overall healthiness & mobility - the case of prettyboys.

While both mobility and fighting success are useful traits for a hunter, the first is arguably lot more so. That's why empirically speaking, most women tend to favour a the lean, athletic figure with a harmonious face on top - prettyboys/men. The minority of women prefer a man with a build heavily built toward fighting success - ogres. Despite this, the male gaze usually glorifies the latter as seeing a big ogre in front of you is much more threating as a fighting opponent, than a man with a lean build but with and aesthetics face. Women care about fighting success if they themselves are in non-secure environments - this explains why prefering ogres over prettyboys is so much more common in lower social classes, than in higher circles.​

Summary

This post was meant to give a logical origin point for the discussion of male attractiveness. It is in no way complete, I tried to just touch as many relevant topics as possible to give you a framework. It also acts a guide to my posts, why I write what I write about aesthetics, this is the logical starting point from where I am trying to deduce today's society working mechanics. ​

 

[bloomercel]

DNRD, male lions sleep 20 hours a day.

 

[NZb6Air]

retarded thread, hunting ability is predicted by IQ not hollow cheeks

 

[Orc]

male beauty ideals have been the same since the stoneage.

literally 3:1 shoulder waist ratio and able to subdue camels with a stick.

 

[Sapphiremaxxing]

Disagree. Attraction is based on far too many factors for there to be just one general reason. Find a mentally scarred bitch who you remind her of the one childhood friend who was always there for her or smth

 

[ㅤㅤㅤㅤClavicular]

Yea good thread, this shouldn't be controversial

 

[Prettyboy]

retarded thread, hunting ability is predicted by IQ not hollow cheeks

Too high IQ only acts as disruption to the group mechanic, the same category (and oftentimes even overlaps) with neurodivergence. A group of people with average intelligence but normal brain wiring and athletic build will almost certainly fare better hunting in the wild barehanded than a group of masterminds.​

 

[Always Stay You]

Do you still pluck out all your facial hair with tweezers?

 

[NZb6Air]

Too high IQ only acts as disruption to the group mechanic, the same category (and oftentimes even overlaps) with neurodivergence. A group of people with average intelligence but normal brain wiring and athletic build will almost certainly fare better hunting in the wild barehanded than a group of masterminds.​

no, this hypothesis would only hold some type of value if we're talking about some task that is low in cognitive complexity/requires less strategic thinking & innovation, ain't no group of retarded but athletic niggas successfully outperforming smart niggas in the wild

 

[Orc]

no, this hypothesis would only hold some type of value if we're talking about some task that is low in cognitive complexity/requires less strategic thinking & innovation, ain't no group of retarded but athletic niggas successfully outperforming smart niggas in the wild

IQ doesn't test for innovativeness or adaptation, it's the opposite, it's mostly your ability to retain and regurgitate, the more rigid and less creative you are the better you score on IQ tests.

hunter gatherers score poorly on IQ tests, some tribes don't even have numbers, colors or past tense.

 

[Prettyboy]

male beauty ideals have been the same since the stoneage.

View attachment 3168313

literally 3:1 shoulder waist ratio and able to subdue camels with a stick.

V taper might be one of the first significant things that elevated us humans to be the apex predators. Combined with bipedality, the narrow waist - wide shoulder combo gives so much torque to throw objects at opponents - stones, sticks etc.

It’s so timelessly important that it still has it’s olympic event in the form of javelin throw

All meaningful sports are an abstractization of an aspect of hunting.

 

[NZb6Air]

it's mostly your ability to retain and regurgitate, the more rigid and less creative you are the better you score on IQ tests.

nigga what it's literally the opposite

 

[Orc]

V taper might be one of the first significant things that elevated us humans to be the apex predators. Combined with bipedality, the narrow waist - wide shoulder combo gives so much torque to throw objects at opponents - stones, sticks etc.

It’s so timelessly important that it still has it’s olympic event in the form of javelin throw

All meaningful sports are an abstractization of an aspect of hunting.

humans are literally the only ape with long clavicles, we specifically evolved it to hunt.



our relatives suck at throwing.

 

[Orc]

nigga what it's literally the opposite

I take it that you've never done an iq test and think the online pattern recognition tests are what they check for.

it's not, they mostly ask you to explain what words mean, arrange some blocks, and subtract, divide and multiply.

these skills are so useless for hunting that some tribes don't have words for them.

 

[ㅤㅤㅤㅤClavicular]

humans are literally the only ape with long clavicles, we specifically evolved it to hunt.



our relatives suck at throwing.

Caged so hard at this example

 

[NZb6Air]

I take it that you've never done an iq test and think the online pattern recognition tests are what they check for.

it's not, they mostly ask you to explain what words mean, arrange some blocks, and subtract, divide and multiply.

these skills are so useless for hunting that some tribes don't have words for them.

those are obviously proxies, how can I answer this without having to explain what's IQ from A to Z

 

[SomethingIsWrong]

Everyday I thank God for blessing me with wide shoulders and small waist naturally

 

[Eren]

YOU ARE BACK

 

[ConfusedBolivian]

Abstract

Throughout the years of being on PSL, I have read numerous threads about what makes a man attractive - some of it were really thought provoking, others less so, while others were just empirically not correct and reflected a personal bias from the poster's own life. Long story short, I was not satisfied with how logically inconsistent some ot the claims were, so hereby I propose a logical framework, from which attractiveness can be judged. In my mind, the closer a man is to being a perfect hunter genetically, the better he will fare in the walks of life, be it romantically, in his career or socially.​

A little historical context

To understand where I will be coming from further down, first let's talk a bit about the traditional way humans lived versus how patriarchy affected the socieites throughout the world until very recently, when the sexual liberation of women started to bring humanity back to it's archaic roots at a societal level. With the start of the agriculture in ancient times, humans started to eat food for cheap calories which they haver never eaten before - plants, more specifically grains, legumes and vegetables. With possessions becoming inheritable, the instituion of marriage was created, hence the provider role of men emerged; this replaced men's previous duty: being outside in the wilderness during the day with their male peers, in order to hunt for animals which can be brought back to their family, where the women were ready to prepare the fresh game. Patriarchy, through the creation of organized religions, have kept female sexuality at bay until very recently - this allowed men to gain the ability to mate by following a meritocratic logic. Institutions and laws like paying dowry to her dad or punishing adultery has ensured that ultimately men that contributed toward the community reproduced, while rogue ones mostly not. Fast forward into 2024, patriarchy is dead in the West, hence the chains on female sexuality are broken, which means they now get to choose again the men they always found physically attractive - the ones that resemble the archaic hunter the most.

Being a genetically good hunter has many contributing attributes, which encompasse both physical and mental characteristics. To make it articulate, I will break these into three parts:​

• Body​
• Mental​
• Face​

(although keep in mind everything is interconnected as a system, as we are talking about the human body)


First, body.

The female body at it's core is rather simple to describe - from head to toe it is specialized to give birth and raise the children until puberty kicks in; in contrast, the male body is like a Swiss knife - it is equipped outrun preys, fight animals & other men, conquer the wildneress through muscle power / agility / endurance, build and to to destroy. These can be categorized into two general functions: mobility and fighting.

Mobility involves running both sprints and distance, jumping, swimming etc. - mostly things that you would find in the agenda of an athletics competition; which already explains which is the most desirable body type for women: the one that of a classical athlete. Some key characteristics contributing to being a good athlete are:​

• Being lean, above all - every single gram of excess fat is a handicap to your mobility.
• Wide shoulders combined with a narrow waist - the torque this combination generates is crucial both for running and throwing things
• Muscle insertions - they imply potential power output, e.g. in the case of calves and sprinting

The most attractive male physiques (involving solo mobility sports) belong to sprinters - look for those short-distance athletes who compete in the 100m, 200m and 400m races. Noticeable mentions are javelin throwers, long jumpers and in some cases, olympic swimmers too.

Fighting in nature can occur against a beast or against a rival man, as part of the mating competition. Some physical traits that contribute to a higher fighting success:​

• Skeletal size (stature) - most importantly, being simply bigger than the other man already gives you the upperhand in the fight
• Reach / limb length - having longer extremities grants your punches and kicks an opportunity to reach the opponent before he can do anything against it
• Wrist size - robust wrists are a prerequisite for strong punching power and are a strong indicative of your skeleton's overall robustness
• High proportion of fast-twitch muscle fibers - like with sprinting, posessing overwhelmingly these type of slow-twitch fibers gives you an explosive & power output advantage

For the male physiques with the highest fighting success, look for the competitors in the most potent combat sports: boxing, thai boxing, kick boxing, wrestling.

The ideal male physique hence is one that either excels in either one of these two, or makes a powerful compromise between them. Now professional sportsmen choose their distinct sports based on their body's genetical predispositon and then excel in that one sport. Just like them, we too are all born with different bodies, which may give us advantages or disadvantages in different disciplines. In general, however if you want an ideal, archaic hunter phyique that women find the most appealing, you should choose sports from power athletics and fighting sports mostly - feel free to mix them up: as I said in the beginning, the male body is supposed to be like a Swiss knive. Combining sprinting with boxing for example is a fantastic combination. But you also need contitioning, else you won't have the necessary muscles to do these - which brings us to the next point, weightlifting.

Weightlifting in the gym is a modern shortcut for muscular hypertrophy and should be treated as such, it is streamlined to stimulate progressive overload in a controlled environment - it is anything, but archaic. Training in the gym has become necessary as most of us live otherwise sedentary lifestyles - but always treat it as not an end goal on itself but as a road to athleticism.

We cannot go further without mentioning the female vs the male gaze at this point. The previous paragraphs about general athleticism broadly speaking encompassed what the overwhelming majority of healthy women find attractive in a man - hence the term, female gaze. If we went back in time a century ago, this whole paragraph would have been pointless to write as the female & male idea of male attractiveness would have been convergent. With the advent of anabolic steroids in the 20th century however, this has changed. Deeply rooted in homosexuality, first anabolic steroids, then later subtances like - human growth hormone - gave rise to a divergence in the female & male perception of the ideal male physique. Women's biology- obviously - didn't change in under a century, so at this day of age in 2024, they find the same athletic, hunter bodies the most attractive as they found in prehistoric times. Big bulging physiques from steroid abuse give women the ick; if you goal is not to be celebrated by the homosexual community, then stick to being natural and concentrate on being as lean as possible, while building muscle defitions that helps you being athletic.​

Second, mental.

In the previous section, I have written about what gives a man the necesarry physical base to be a succesful hunter. However, humanity has risen to be the apex predator of this planet because we possess something that other animals don't: our evolved brains allows us to effectively communicate and cooperate with each other, which makes a predatpr that all others fear in the wild. Alone, we are easily overpowered by many animals - even the world's fastest man is made a joke by just about any quadrupedal animal in a sprint; or like how a chimpanzee can rip a person's arm off due to the difference in our central nervous systems. We function best as a part of a tribe. Male & male bonding is more ad hoc than female & female, because the relationship between men ultimately boils down to being hunting mates. Men build connection with each other under struggle and hardship they go through with each other - a hunt. The friends you surround yourself with, your work colleagues, your teammates, they all represent a hunting group in an abstract sense; and just like the old archaic hunting days, contemporary male groups also always involve a hierarchy - even if it isn't written anywhere, there is always a leader, many followers, foot soldiers at the bottom.

A little throwback to sports - make no mistake, it's not a coincidence, that the most popular, most widely celebrated sports worlwide are team sports where athleticism is highly involved. The needed mobility showcases to women the sportmen's physical ability, while their team work shows their ability to cooperate. Football (association & American), basketball (NBA), rugby, cricket etc. are watched by billions of heavily involved fans worlwide because these sports all represent a modern, abstract way of hunting. The two competing teams of players in women's brains are two rival hunting groups - the genetically better one wins.

This is why being neurotypical and an extrovert are so crucial. By having the same general brain structure as the majority of people, the group has strong cohesion as everyone conforms to the social hierachy, follows the unwritten social rules, so that the group can accomplish the hunt (which in today's world might be a work / school project for example).

Women hate neurodivergent and otherwise atypical men because they represent a disruption in the group mechanics - for example a group of autists would make a terrible hunting gang as everyone would have difficulty in communication with each other and their divergent personalities would clash with each other, resulting in an unsucessful hunt.​

Third, the face.

While face is the most imporant out of anything the human body encompasses, I intentionally left it to be the last of the three, because ot already reflects basically everything about the other two. It tells everything about your physical condition:

• Hollow cheeks with a chiseled, angular jawline signal that you are lean, meaning you excel in mobility
• Hunter eyes combined with compact eye sockets, a robust mandible, prominent browridge, wide neck etc. - all signs that you possess higher than average fighting chance

Likewise, your mental state is readable from your facial (micro)expressions - a woman is able to gauge within milliseconds just by taking a glance at your face whether you are neurotypical or neurodivergent, confident or an abused dog.

Face is the most important because as soon as humans have stopped hunting solitarity and gathered into hunting groups, the physical attributes no longer were the only determinants of hunting success. Ever since, looking at each other's face is used to quickly & efficiently create the hierarchy withing the hunting group, so the hunt (in modern terms the work, activity etc.) can begin. This is why ever since that point, not only the visible mobility and fighting success indicators of the face matter, but also it's perceived ability to socialize with other people. For example a person with gigantism might have fantastic fighting ability with their large, bony skull, but their face probably provokes much less trust in the eyes of another person, than if their face was more harmonious and refined. A male face might not have a high perceived fight success score, but it's symmetry signal overall healthiness & mobility - the case of prettyboys.

While both mobility and fighting success are useful traits for a hunter, the first is arguably lot more so. That's why empirically speaking, most women tend to favour a the lean, athletic figure with a harmonious face on top - prettyboys/men. The minority of women prefer a man with a build heavily built toward fighting success - ogres. Despite this, the male gaze usually glorifies the latter as seeing a big ogre in front of you is much more threating as a fighting opponent, than a man with a lean build but with and aesthetics face. Women care about fighting success if they themselves are in non-secure environments - this explains why prefering ogres over prettyboys is so much more common in lower social classes, than in higher circles.​

Summary

This post was meant to give a logical origin point for the discussion of male attractiveness. It is in no way complete, I tried to just touch as many relevant topics as possible to give you a framework. It also acts a guide to my posts, why I write what I write about aesthetics, this is the logical starting point from where I am trying to deduce today's society working mechanics. ​

Water

 

[ConfusedBolivian]

This looks like a good hunter?

 

[LOOKISM-LOGIC]

IQ doesn't test for innovativeness or adaptation, it's the opposite, it's mostly your ability to retain and regurgitate, the more rigid and less creative you are the better you score on IQ tests.

hunter gatherers score poorly on IQ tests, some tribes don't even have numbers, colors or past tense.

talking a lot but saying nothing tbh.

Have you even researched an ounce of information about IQ.

No further replies will be made

 

[LOOKISM-LOGIC]

All fun and games after you think that pretty boy is weak and then he ends up bashing your head into a pulp.

Legit over for ogres.

 

[yue]

male beauty ideals have been the same since the stoneage.

View attachment 3168313

literally 3:1 shoulder waist ratio and able to subdue camels with a stick.

any books in anthropology you recommend

 

[Orc]

talking a lot but saying nothing tbh.

Have you even researched an ounce of information about IQ.

No further replies will be made

you clearly haven't ever taken an iq test.

 

[R@m@]

Being neurotypical was the most important trait back then, if youre fun and articulated at talking you can even be weak and incompetent but you will be part of the tribe because others will like to have you around

 

[LOOKISM-LOGIC]

you clearly haven't ever taken an iq test.

Iq tests aims to test a broad scale of abilities with a battery of tests that together correlate very highly, this points towards a unitary factor known as g. This unitary factor reached at by the battery of tests used correlates highly with many lifeoutcomes, its actually mind blowing.

A single matrices or vocabulary test can pretty much accurately capture your g factor, as long as the test is porfessional and administered correctly. With a battery of tests even better.

 

[aesthetic beauty]

retarded thread, hunting ability is predicted by IQ not hollow cheeks

It’s both.

 

[aesthetic beauty]

Abstract

Throughout the years of being on PSL, I have read numerous threads about what makes a man attractive - some of it were really thought provoking, others less so, while others were just empirically not correct and reflected a personal bias from the poster's own life. Long story short, I was not satisfied with how logically inconsistent some ot the claims were, so hereby I propose a logical framework, from which attractiveness can be judged. In my mind, the closer a man is to being a perfect hunter genetically, the better he will fare in the walks of life, be it romantically, in his career or socially.​

A little historical context

To understand where I will be coming from further down, first let's talk a bit about the traditional way humans lived versus how patriarchy affected the socieites throughout the world until very recently, when the sexual liberation of women started to bring humanity back to it's archaic roots at a societal level. With the start of the agriculture in ancient times, humans started to eat food for cheap calories which they haver never eaten before - plants, more specifically grains, legumes and vegetables. With possessions becoming inheritable, the instituion of marriage was created, hence the provider role of men emerged; this replaced men's previous duty: being outside in the wilderness during the day with their male peers, in order to hunt for animals which can be brought back to their family, where the women were ready to prepare the fresh game. Patriarchy, through the creation of organized religions, have kept female sexuality at bay until very recently - this allowed men to gain the ability to mate by following a meritocratic logic. Institutions and laws like paying dowry to her dad or punishing adultery has ensured that ultimately men that contributed toward the community reproduced, while rogue ones mostly not. Fast forward into 2024, patriarchy is dead in the West, hence the chains on female sexuality are broken, which means they now get to choose again the men they always found physically attractive - the ones that resemble the archaic hunter the most.

Being a genetically good hunter has many contributing attributes, which encompasse both physical and mental characteristics. To make it articulate, I will break these into three parts:​

• Body​
• Mental​
• Face​

(although keep in mind everything is interconnected as a system, as we are talking about the human body)


First, body.

The female body at it's core is rather simple to describe - from head to toe it is specialized to give birth and raise the children until puberty kicks in; in contrast, the male body is like a Swiss knife - it is equipped outrun preys, fight animals & other men, conquer the wildneress through muscle power / agility / endurance, build and to to destroy. These can be categorized into two general functions: mobility and fighting.

Mobility involves running both sprints and distance, jumping, swimming etc. - mostly things that you would find in the agenda of an athletics competition; which already explains which is the most desirable body type for women: the one that of a classical athlete. Some key characteristics contributing to being a good athlete are:​

• Being lean, above all - every single gram of excess fat is a handicap to your mobility.
• Wide shoulders combined with a narrow waist - the torque this combination generates is crucial both for running and throwing things
• Muscle insertions - they imply potential power output, e.g. in the case of calves and sprinting

The most attractive male physiques (involving solo mobility sports) belong to sprinters - look for those short-distance athletes who compete in the 100m, 200m and 400m races. Noticeable mentions are javelin throwers, long jumpers and in some cases, olympic swimmers too.

Fighting in nature can occur against a beast or against a rival man, as part of the mating competition. Some physical traits that contribute to a higher fighting success:​

• Skeletal size (stature) - most importantly, being simply bigger than the other man already gives you the upperhand in the fight
• Reach / limb length - having longer extremities grants your punches and kicks an opportunity to reach the opponent before he can do anything against it
• Wrist size - robust wrists are a prerequisite for strong punching power and are a strong indicative of your skeleton's overall robustness
• High proportion of fast-twitch muscle fibers - like with sprinting, posessing overwhelmingly these type of slow-twitch fibers gives you an explosive & power output advantage

For the male physiques with the highest fighting success, look for the competitors in the most potent combat sports: boxing, thai boxing, kick boxing, wrestling.

The ideal male physique hence is one that either excels in either one of these two, or makes a powerful compromise between them. Now professional sportsmen choose their distinct sports based on their body's genetical predispositon and then excel in that one sport. Just like them, we too are all born with different bodies, which may give us advantages or disadvantages in different disciplines. In general, however if you want an ideal, archaic hunter phyique that women find the most appealing, you should choose sports from power athletics and fighting sports mostly - feel free to mix them up: as I said in the beginning, the male body is supposed to be like a Swiss knive. Combining sprinting with boxing for example is a fantastic combination. But you also need contitioning, else you won't have the necessary muscles to do these - which brings us to the next point, weightlifting.

Weightlifting in the gym is a modern shortcut for muscular hypertrophy and should be treated as such, it is streamlined to stimulate progressive overload in a controlled environment - it is anything, but archaic. Training in the gym has become necessary as most of us live otherwise sedentary lifestyles - but always treat it as not an end goal on itself but as a road to athleticism.

We cannot go further without mentioning the female vs the male gaze at this point. The previous paragraphs about general athleticism broadly speaking encompassed what the overwhelming majority of healthy women find attractive in a man - hence the term, female gaze. If we went back in time a century ago, this whole paragraph would have been pointless to write as the female & male idea of male attractiveness would have been convergent. With the advent of anabolic steroids in the 20th century however, this has changed. Deeply rooted in homosexuality, first anabolic steroids, then later subtances like - human growth hormone - gave rise to a divergence in the female & male perception of the ideal male physique. Women's biology- obviously - didn't change in under a century, so at this day of age in 2024, they find the same athletic, hunter bodies the most attractive as they found in prehistoric times. Big bulging physiques from steroid abuse give women the ick; if you goal is not to be celebrated by the homosexual community, then stick to being natural and concentrate on being as lean as possible, while building muscle defitions that helps you being athletic.​

Second, mental.

In the previous section, I have written about what gives a man the necesarry physical base to be a succesful hunter. However, humanity has risen to be the apex predator of this planet because we possess something that other animals don't: our evolved brains allows us to effectively communicate and cooperate with each other, which makes a predatpr that all others fear in the wild. Alone, we are easily overpowered by many animals - even the world's fastest man is made a joke by just about any quadrupedal animal in a sprint; or like how a chimpanzee can rip a person's arm off due to the difference in our central nervous systems. We function best as a part of a tribe. Male & male bonding is more ad hoc than female & female, because the relationship between men ultimately boils down to being hunting mates. Men build connection with each other under struggle and hardship they go through with each other - a hunt. The friends you surround yourself with, your work colleagues, your teammates, they all represent a hunting group in an abstract sense; and just like the old archaic hunting days, contemporary male groups also always involve a hierarchy - even if it isn't written anywhere, there is always a leader, many followers, foot soldiers at the bottom.

A little throwback to sports - make no mistake, it's not a coincidence, that the most popular, most widely celebrated sports worlwide are team sports where athleticism is highly involved. The needed mobility showcases to women the sportmen's physical ability, while their team work shows their ability to cooperate. Football (association & American), basketball (NBA), rugby, cricket etc. are watched by billions of heavily involved fans worlwide because these sports all represent a modern, abstract way of hunting. The two competing teams of players in women's brains are two rival hunting groups - the genetically better one wins.

This is why being neurotypical and an extrovert are so crucial. By having the same general brain structure as the majority of people, the group has strong cohesion as everyone conforms to the social hierachy, follows the unwritten social rules, so that the group can accomplish the hunt (which in today's world might be a work / school project for example).

Women hate neurodivergent and otherwise atypical men because they represent a disruption in the group mechanics - for example a group of autists would make a terrible hunting gang as everyone would have difficulty in communication with each other and their divergent personalities would clash with each other, resulting in an unsucessful hunt.​

Third, the face.

While face is the most imporant out of anything the human body encompasses, I intentionally left it to be the last of the three, because ot already reflects basically everything about the other two. It tells everything about your physical condition:

• Hollow cheeks with a chiseled, angular jawline signal that you are lean, meaning you excel in mobility
• Hunter eyes combined with compact eye sockets, a robust mandible, prominent browridge, wide neck etc. - all signs that you possess higher than average fighting chance

Likewise, your mental state is readable from your facial (micro)expressions - a woman is able to gauge within milliseconds just by taking a glance at your face whether you are neurotypical or neurodivergent, confident or an abused dog.

Face is the most important because as soon as humans have stopped hunting solitarity and gathered into hunting groups, the physical attributes no longer were the only determinants of hunting success. Ever since, looking at each other's face is used to quickly & efficiently create the hierarchy withing the hunting group, so the hunt (in modern terms the work, activity etc.) can begin. This is why ever since that point, not only the visible mobility and fighting success indicators of the face matter, but also it's perceived ability to socialize with other people. For example a person with gigantism might have fantastic fighting ability with their large, bony skull, but their face probably provokes much less trust in the eyes of another person, than if their face was more harmonious and refined. A male face might not have a high perceived fight success score, but it's symmetry signal overall healthiness & mobility - the case of prettyboys.

While both mobility and fighting success are useful traits for a hunter, the first is arguably lot more so. That's why empirically speaking, most women tend to favour a the lean, athletic figure with a harmonious face on top - prettyboys/men. The minority of women prefer a man with a build heavily built toward fighting success - ogres. Despite this, the male gaze usually glorifies the latter as seeing a big ogre in front of you is much more threating as a fighting opponent, than a man with a lean build but with and aesthetics face. Women care about fighting success if they themselves are in non-secure environments - this explains why prefering ogres over prettyboys is so much more common in lower social classes, than in higher circles.​

Summary

This post was meant to give a logical origin point for the discussion of male attractiveness. It is in no way complete, I tried to just touch as many relevant topics as possible to give you a framework. It also acts a guide to my posts, why I write what I write about aesthetics, this is the logical starting point from where I am trying to deduce today's society working mechanics. ​

Aligns with what I’ve thought except for the title.

 

[flippasav]

It’s the truth

 

[Never Get Up]

I’ve told people millions of times, STOP EATING CARBOHYDRATES!

CARNIVORE DIET = SUCCESSFUL HUNTER GATHERER = LOOKSMAX = HEALTHY = ATTRACTIVE

Humans are obligate hyper carnivores.

 

[cooldude1231]

IQ doesn't test for innovativeness or adaptation, it's the opposite, it's mostly your ability to retain and regurgitate, the more rigid and less creative you are the better you score on IQ tests.

hunter gatherers score poorly on IQ tests, some tribes don't even have numbers, colors or past tense.

Thats mostly just from them not having an education though or id assume

 

[Orc]

Thats mostly just from them not having an education though or id assume

yes, but that tells you that the knowledge required to have a high iq isn't actually used in hunter gathering, else they'd have it.

 

[Deleted member 83991]

Abstract

Throughout the years of being on PSL, I have read numerous threads about what makes a man attractive - some of it were really thought provoking, others less so, while others were just empirically not correct and reflected a personal bias from the poster's own life. Long story short, I was not satisfied with how logically inconsistent some ot the claims were, so hereby I propose a logical framework, from which attractiveness can be judged. In my mind, the closer a man is to being a perfect hunter genetically, the better he will fare in the walks of life, be it romantically, in his career or socially.​

A little historical context

To understand where I will be coming from further down, first let's talk a bit about the traditional way humans lived versus how patriarchy affected the socieites throughout the world until very recently, when the sexual liberation of women started to bring humanity back to it's archaic roots at a societal level. With the start of the agriculture in ancient times, humans started to eat food for cheap calories which they haver never eaten before - plants, more specifically grains, legumes and vegetables. With possessions becoming inheritable, the instituion of marriage was created, hence the provider role of men emerged; this replaced men's previous duty: being outside in the wilderness during the day with their male peers, in order to hunt for animals which can be brought back to their family, where the women were ready to prepare the fresh game. Patriarchy, through the creation of organized religions, have kept female sexuality at bay until very recently - this allowed men to gain the ability to mate by following a meritocratic logic. Institutions and laws like paying dowry to her dad or punishing adultery has ensured that ultimately men that contributed toward the community reproduced, while rogue ones mostly not. Fast forward into 2024, patriarchy is dead in the West, hence the chains on female sexuality are broken, which means they now get to choose again the men they always found physically attractive - the ones that resemble the archaic hunter the most.

Being a genetically good hunter has many contributing attributes, which encompasse both physical and mental characteristics. To make it articulate, I will break these into three parts:​

• Body​
• Mental​
• Face​

(although keep in mind everything is interconnected as a system, as we are talking about the human body)


First, body.

The female body at it's core is rather simple to describe - from head to toe it is specialized to give birth and raise the children until puberty kicks in; in contrast, the male body is like a Swiss knife - it is equipped outrun preys, fight animals & other men, conquer the wildneress through muscle power / agility / endurance, build and to to destroy. These can be categorized into two general functions: mobility and fighting.

Mobility involves running both sprints and distance, jumping, swimming etc. - mostly things that you would find in the agenda of an athletics competition; which already explains which is the most desirable body type for women: the one that of a classical athlete. Some key characteristics contributing to being a good athlete are:​

• Being lean, above all - every single gram of excess fat is a handicap to your mobility.
• Wide shoulders combined with a narrow waist - the torque this combination generates is crucial both for running and throwing things
• Muscle insertions - they imply potential power output, e.g. in the case of calves and sprinting

The most attractive male physiques (involving solo mobility sports) belong to sprinters - look for those short-distance athletes who compete in the 100m, 200m and 400m races. Noticeable mentions are javelin throwers, long jumpers and in some cases, olympic swimmers too.

Fighting in nature can occur against a beast or against a rival man, as part of the mating competition. Some physical traits that contribute to a higher fighting success:​

• Skeletal size (stature) - most importantly, being simply bigger than the other man already gives you the upperhand in the fight
• Reach / limb length - having longer extremities grants your punches and kicks an opportunity to reach the opponent before he can do anything against it
• Wrist size - robust wrists are a prerequisite for strong punching power and are a strong indicative of your skeleton's overall robustness
• High proportion of fast-twitch muscle fibers - like with sprinting, posessing overwhelmingly these type of slow-twitch fibers gives you an explosive & power output advantage

For the male physiques with the highest fighting success, look for the competitors in the most potent combat sports: boxing, thai boxing, kick boxing, wrestling.

The ideal male physique hence is one that either excels in either one of these two, or makes a powerful compromise between them. Now professional sportsmen choose their distinct sports based on their body's genetical predispositon and then excel in that one sport. Just like them, we too are all born with different bodies, which may give us advantages or disadvantages in different disciplines. In general, however if you want an ideal, archaic hunter phyique that women find the most appealing, you should choose sports from power athletics and fighting sports mostly - feel free to mix them up: as I said in the beginning, the male body is supposed to be like a Swiss knive. Combining sprinting with boxing for example is a fantastic combination. But you also need contitioning, else you won't have the necessary muscles to do these - which brings us to the next point, weightlifting.

Weightlifting in the gym is a modern shortcut for muscular hypertrophy and should be treated as such, it is streamlined to stimulate progressive overload in a controlled environment - it is anything, but archaic. Training in the gym has become necessary as most of us live otherwise sedentary lifestyles - but always treat it as not an end goal on itself but as a road to athleticism.

We cannot go further without mentioning the female vs the male gaze at this point. The previous paragraphs about general athleticism broadly speaking encompassed what the overwhelming majority of healthy women find attractive in a man - hence the term, female gaze. If we went back in time a century ago, this whole paragraph would have been pointless to write as the female & male idea of male attractiveness would have been convergent. With the advent of anabolic steroids in the 20th century however, this has changed. Deeply rooted in homosexuality, first anabolic steroids, then later subtances like - human growth hormone - gave rise to a divergence in the female & male perception of the ideal male physique. Women's biology- obviously - didn't change in under a century, so at this day of age in 2024, they find the same athletic, hunter bodies the most attractive as they found in prehistoric times. Big bulging physiques from steroid abuse give women the ick; if you goal is not to be celebrated by the homosexual community, then stick to being natural and concentrate on being as lean as possible, while building muscle defitions that helps you being athletic.​

Second, mental.

In the previous section, I have written about what gives a man the necesarry physical base to be a succesful hunter. However, humanity has risen to be the apex predator of this planet because we possess something that other animals don't: our evolved brains allows us to effectively communicate and cooperate with each other, which makes a predatpr that all others fear in the wild. Alone, we are easily overpowered by many animals - even the world's fastest man is made a joke by just about any quadrupedal animal in a sprint; or like how a chimpanzee can rip a person's arm off due to the difference in our central nervous systems. We function best as a part of a tribe. Male & male bonding is more ad hoc than female & female, because the relationship between men ultimately boils down to being hunting mates. Men build connection with each other under struggle and hardship they go through with each other - a hunt. The friends you surround yourself with, your work colleagues, your teammates, they all represent a hunting group in an abstract sense; and just like the old archaic hunting days, contemporary male groups also always involve a hierarchy - even if it isn't written anywhere, there is always a leader, many followers, foot soldiers at the bottom.

A little throwback to sports - make no mistake, it's not a coincidence, that the most popular, most widely celebrated sports worlwide are team sports where athleticism is highly involved. The needed mobility showcases to women the sportmen's physical ability, while their team work shows their ability to cooperate. Football (association & American), basketball (NBA), rugby, cricket etc. are watched by billions of heavily involved fans worlwide because these sports all represent a modern, abstract way of hunting. The two competing teams of players in women's brains are two rival hunting groups - the genetically better one wins.

This is why being neurotypical and an extrovert are so crucial. By having the same general brain structure as the majority of people, the group has strong cohesion as everyone conforms to the social hierachy, follows the unwritten social rules, so that the group can accomplish the hunt (which in today's world might be a work / school project for example).

Women hate neurodivergent and otherwise atypical men because they represent a disruption in the group mechanics - for example a group of autists would make a terrible hunting gang as everyone would have difficulty in communication with each other and their divergent personalities would clash with each other, resulting in an unsucessful hunt.​

Third, the face.

While face is the most imporant out of anything the human body encompasses, I intentionally left it to be the last of the three, because ot already reflects basically everything about the other two. It tells everything about your physical condition:

• Hollow cheeks with a chiseled, angular jawline signal that you are lean, meaning you excel in mobility
• Hunter eyes combined with compact eye sockets, a robust mandible, prominent browridge, wide neck etc. - all signs that you possess higher than average fighting chance

Likewise, your mental state is readable from your facial (micro)expressions - a woman is able to gauge within milliseconds just by taking a glance at your face whether you are neurotypical or neurodivergent, confident or an abused dog.

Face is the most important because as soon as humans have stopped hunting solitarity and gathered into hunting groups, the physical attributes no longer were the only determinants of hunting success. Ever since, looking at each other's face is used to quickly & efficiently create the hierarchy withing the hunting group, so the hunt (in modern terms the work, activity etc.) can begin. This is why ever since that point, not only the visible mobility and fighting success indicators of the face matter, but also it's perceived ability to socialize with other people. For example a person with gigantism might have fantastic fighting ability with their large, bony skull, but their face probably provokes much less trust in the eyes of another person, than if their face was more harmonious and refined. A male face might not have a high perceived fight success score, but it's symmetry signal overall healthiness & mobility - the case of prettyboys.

While both mobility and fighting success are useful traits for a hunter, the first is arguably lot more so. That's why empirically speaking, most women tend to favour a the lean, athletic figure with a harmonious face on top - prettyboys/men. The minority of women prefer a man with a build heavily built toward fighting success - ogres. Despite this, the male gaze usually glorifies the latter as seeing a big ogre in front of you is much more threating as a fighting opponent, than a man with a lean build but with and aesthetics face. Women care about fighting success if they themselves are in non-secure environments - this explains why prefering ogres over prettyboys is so much more common in lower social classes, than in higher circles.​

Summary

This post was meant to give a logical origin point for the discussion of male attractiveness. It is in no way complete, I tried to just touch as many relevant topics as possible to give you a framework. It also acts a guide to my posts, why I write what I write about aesthetics, this is the logical starting point from where I am trying to deduce today's society working mechanics. ​

yes and no, if you were a good hunter you would be able to eat lots of raw meat and supply it for your children so yes, being attractive meant your ancestors were good hunters as they had the best food

 

[Deleted member 83991]

I’ve told people millions of times, STOP EATING CARBOHYDRATES!

CARNIVORE DIET = SUCCESSFUL HUNTER GATHERER = LOOKSMAX = HEALTHY = ATTRACTIVE

Humans are obligate hyper carnivores.

have you looked at any human gather group they dont eat just meat even though it is a majority of their diet

 

[Andromeda.74]

I’ve told people millions of times, STOP EATING CARBOHYDRATES!

CARNIVORE DIET = SUCCESSFUL HUNTER GATHERER = LOOKSMAX = HEALTHY = ATTRACTIVE

Humans are obligate hyper carnivores.

biggest bro science BS ever - naturally derived sources of carbs have been proven time and time again to be the king of performance. If you look at all of the top athletes that represent the peak of human genetics they consume high carb diets. Also, excess protein is converted into fat.

 

[Amnesia]

reminds me of this moment in this vid. Vid of REAL hunters and how they are developed

9:29

 

[oppastoppathe2nd]

this is so true. @Prettyboy banger thread

 

[sub5pslathlete]

retarded thread, hunting ability is predicted by IQ not hollow cheeks

Crying at this

 

[oppastoppathe2nd]

Muscle insertions - they imply potential power output, e.g. in the case of calves and sprinting

ik having shorter muscle bellies and longer tendons are better for instant force generation. would that be same for the upper body, having shorter muscle bellies?

 

[BucketCrab]

An interesting read for sure. I find it aligns quite closely to my own way of dissecting attractiveness and I agree with you on the general terms you laid out. You're definitely onto something, although you could use a bit more structure to your writing.

There are just a few elements that I either disagree with, or that should be explored more deeply. You split your thoughts in three sections, so I'll try to keep my observations coherent with your framework.

Body​

I think you are overestimating the importance of fighting success; human mating selection, at its core, is mostly intersexual (females choosing partners) rather than intrasexual (mates fighting each other for the right to mate). It only assumes intersexual aspects when, as you astutely observed, patriarchy butts in and allows sub-par males to "earn" a mate by participating in society.

Of course, psycho-social aspects may also play a part here; a man who looks good and can fight is generally preferrable to a man who only looks good, for merely pragmatic reasons. At the same time, though, I feel like fighting ability is not nearly as important to human females as many people think; few of them idolize fighters, even attractive ones.

The ideal male physique hence is one that either excels in either one of these two, or makes a powerful compromise between them.

By this logic, it follows that the ideal male physique is more catered towards athletic performance and health rather than pure fighting power, although athletic performance and health DO positevely correlate with fighting power too.

Mind
​

You're definitely right when you assert that hierarchy is innate to the human social experience, but your stance glosses over a few key aspects of our society that cannot be set aside for this discussion.

A little throwback to sports - make no mistake, it's not a coincidence, that the most popular, most widely celebrated sports worlwide are team sports where athleticism is highly involved.​

While this is true, which of the two genders is interested in sports, especially the type of sports you're talking about here?
That's right, males. So while it may be true that team sports "scratch the evolutionary itch of hunting", so to speak, females are generally uninterested in them. Few women idolize athletes, they are far more likely to idolize artists, such as musicians and actors, and often they are idolized as individuals rather than members of a group.

My point here is that this piece of the puzzle is a direct contradiction to your implied assertion that perceived hunting success, of which team sports act as a surrogate, is the quintessential mental aspect that females gravitate towards.

This expands to introversion and extroversion; mysteriousness, aloofness and rebellious and dark attitude are all traits that females typically find irresistible, and this can be seen in a myriad of forms in media (both of the erotic and non-erotic kinds). Neurodivergence is also a big one, when hybristophilia is a thing... maybe there are some forms of neurodivergence that qualify as a sexual death sentence, while others are paradoxically beneficial at least in terms of short-term attraction.

Face​

This section provided a more robust approach to the dichotomy of fighting success / attractiveness, which I find myself agreeing with fully. Still I think more attention could have been devoted to youth indicators (hair and skin) as further proof that fighting success is not nearly as important as many males think it is. Also, another important aspect of facial attractiveness is definitely connected to health; a well developed jaw and porportioned nose imply excellent respiration, which correlates with fighting success but is genetically desirable in its own right.

Your observations on ogres being preferred in low-trust environments are also stellar, and it aligns perfectly with studies.
In my thread (https://looksmax.org/threads/debunk...view-male-attractiveness-with-studies.605526/)
I highlighted a study (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1740144505000562) that showed how

"...[male body attractiveness perceived by females shows] clear differences along a gradient of socio-economic development.
In the rural setting, BMI was the primary predictor of attractiveness, with WCR playing a more minor role and WHR not reaching significance. In general, urban participants were more reliant on body shape and chose a relatively slim figure with an ‘inverted triangle’ shape."

In other words, the less advanced a society is, the more females will tend to prefer ogres (for pragmatic reasons) whereas the more advanced a society is, the more females will revert to preferring genetic quality (the hunter-type you've discussed). It's a tactic that is unconsciously employed to hedge their bet: they'd rather birth offspring with the hunter-type genetic quality, but if the female's environment presents an exceedingly high risk of death, then they end up choosing a less-than-ideal mate to favor safety.

 

[noka]

male beauty ideals have been the same since the stoneage.

View attachment 3168313

literally 3:1 shoulder waist ratio and able to subdue camels with a stick.

very good example

 

[UrGirlsMcm]

V taper might be one of the first significant things that elevated us humans to be the apex predators. Combined with bipedality, the narrow waist - wide shoulder combo gives so much torque to throw objects at opponents - stones, sticks etc.

It’s so timelessly important that it still has it’s olympic event in the form of javelin throw

All meaningful sports are an abstractization of an aspect of hunting.

You're back???

 

[Prettyboy]

An interesting read for sure. I find it aligns quite closely to my own way of dissecting attractiveness and I agree with you on the general terms you laid out. You're definitely onto something, although you could use a bit more structure to your writing.

There are just a few elements that I either disagree with, or that should be explored more deeply. You split your thoughts in three sections, so I'll try to keep my observations coherent with your framework.

This post was never meant to be my magnum opus, rather just a just a quick writeup to estabilish the general framework I will elaborate on in my further posts.

Body​

I think you are overestimating the importance of fighting success; human mating selection, at its core, is mostly intersexual (females choosing partners) rather than intrasexual (mates fighting each other for the right to mate). It only assumes intersexual aspects when, as you astutely observed, patriarchy butts in and allows sub-par males to "earn" a mate by participating in society.

I think we are in the same boat here - both of us conclude that while fighting success (and it's indicative physical characteristics) do matter for male attractveness, it does not come first in importance in most cases.

On whether the natural state of humans is females choosing partners or rather intrasexual competition, I am not sure, I am on top of the fence. While the currently unfolding, post-patriarchal social order does seems to indicate that it is indeed ultimately females doing most of the partner selection, this does assumes that what we are witnessing currently is the regression of the world to pre-historic times socially. I find it just as likely that the post-modern, digital environment we live in is in fact not synonimous with the natural state of things and if societal order were to be completely broken down, intrasexual competition between men would skyrocket.​

Of course, psycho-social aspects may also play a part here; a man who looks good and can fight is generally preferrable to a man who only looks good, for merely pragmatic reasons. At the same time, though, I feel like fighting ability is not nearly as important to human females as many people think; few of them idolize fighters, even attractive ones.

I can only repeat the first paragraph of this reply of mine - fighters are indeed far from being the most popular celebrities among women, which should be a sign that their genes are not what females seek the most.

Mind
​

You're definitely right when you assert that hierarchy is innate to the human social experience, but your stance glosses over a few key aspects of our society that cannot be set aside for this discussion.


While this is true, which of the two genders is interested in sports, especially the type of sports you're talking about here?
That's right, males. So while it may be true that team sports "scratch the evolutionary itch of hunting", so to speak, females are generally uninterested in them. Few women idolize athletes, they are far more likely to idolize artists, such as musicians and actors, and often they are idolized as individuals rather than members of a group.

I think it's hard to decide which profession of celebrities are the most popular with women, especially because usually these male celebrities regardless of their niche are physically incredibly attractive, which brings us back the physical aspect, even though they might win the hearts of women with their work (i.e. actors)

This expands to introversion and extroversion; mysteriousness, aloofness and rebellious and dark attitude are all traits that females typically find irresistible, and this can be seen in a myriad of forms in media (both of the erotic and non-erotic kinds). Neurodivergence is also a big one, when hybristophilia is a thing... maybe there are some forms of neurodivergence that qualify as a sexual death sentence, while others are paradoxically beneficial at least in terms of short-term attraction.

Great point - indeed, neurodivergence might have been a too broad term to use. I was mostly thinking about men on the autistic spectrum: that's a social death sentence. Things, like being a schizo are also detrimental, but on the other hand neurodivergences like psychopathy might even be beneficial.

Face​

This section provided a more robust approach to the dichotomy of fighting success / attractiveness, which I find myself agreeing with fully. Still I think more attention could have been devoted to youth indicators (hair and skin) as further proof that fighting success is not nearly as important as many males think it is. Also, another important aspect of facial attractiveness is definitely connected to health; a well developed jaw and porportioned nose imply excellent respiration, which correlates with fighting success but is genetically desirable in its own right.

I intentionally didn't want to touch on the question of youth as I'm planning to unpack that topic in it's own discussion. I've became a subscriber of the antagonistic pleitropy hypothesis in regard to the hormone DHT - I think males peak in the early 20s in attractiveness, then fall off as they get older. The commonly held belief that men age gracefully is I believe a remnant of the patriarchal thinking, because in the past, due to the provider role of men, time indeed brought more resources. This is no longer the case, men peak in athleticism in their early 20s and that's where they are the most potent as mating partners.

Your observations on ogres being preferred in low-trust environments are also stellar, and it aligns perfectly with studies.
In my thread (https://looksmax.org/threads/debunk...view-male-attractiveness-with-studies.605526/)
I highlighted a study (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1740144505000562) that showed how

"...[male body attractiveness perceived by females shows] clear differences along a gradient of socio-economic development.
In the rural setting, BMI was the primary predictor of attractiveness, with WCR playing a more minor role and WHR not reaching significance. In general, urban participants were more reliant on body shape and chose a relatively slim figure with an ‘inverted triangle’ shape."

In other words, the less advanced a society is, the more females will tend to prefer ogres (for pragmatic reasons) whereas the more advanced a society is, the more females will revert to preferring genetic quality (the hunter-type you've discussed). It's a tactic that is unconsciously employed to hedge their bet: they'd rather birth offspring with the hunter-type genetic quality, but if the female's environment presents an exceedingly high risk of death, then they end up choosing a less-than-ideal mate to favor safety.

I always found this to be self-explanatory if we take a look at the outside world. Some high class women might fetishize low class brutes, but the general trend is clear - the higher you go in the societal ladder, the more refined people's tastes get in the opposite gender.

The gender swapped version of this is also very apparent: low class men usually prefer 'thicc' women - who almost resemble the Venus of Willendorf - while upperclassmen tend to prefer women with slim figures.

 

[mvp2v1]

DNRD, male lions sleep 20 hours a day.

We aren’t lions

 

[LooksMaxsterAwesome]

water

 

[Andremln]

@Prettyboy Rate Dexter

 

[BucketCrab]

if societal order were to be completely broken down, intrasexual competition between men would skyrocket.​

Hard to tell. It's definitely possible this would happen, but would it be the case long-term? Do humans innately favor a type of mate selection? It's possible that, since we are this advanced and detached from nature, the intersexual/intrasexual options do not really apply to us. Still, I this very element of "human un-naturality" leads me to think women are innately more interested in genetic quality for the sake of it rather than males defeating other males.

That is simply because male dominance alone is not sufficient to elicit a sexual response in females. It needs to come with attractiveness, which is kind of self-defeating since attractiveness does not really require male dominance.

In other words, I think fighting prowess / high intrasexual quality are perceived as valuable out of mere pragmatism born from our advanced way of perceiving reality, but at their core, humans are definitely more rooted in intersexual selection.

The commonly held belief that men age gracefully is I believe a remnant of the patriarchal thinking, because in the past, due to the provider role of men, time indeed brought more resources.

Men do have more potential to age gracefully than women though. Our skin is thicker and less prone to wrinkles, our bone mass is stronger and less prone to decay, our musculature ensures less sagging as we age. Our window of fertility is much longer, whereas women's starts earlier and is basically already over at 40. Lastly, men's testosterone peaks in our late 30s.

Yet most middle aged men look way worse than middle age women... why is that? Because, also due to patriarchal thinking, they refuse to take care of themselves. They sneer at skincare, they don't take care of their hair, and they let their bodies get fat and weak. If men actually made an effort, they could look way younger than their female peers as they reach their 40s and 50s, instead we have men in their 30s who already look way older and somehow deluded themselves into thinking they look more "manly" and "rugged".

It's true that rugged men have more appeal than rugged women, but at the same time, they fail to understand that women in the ideal age range, who are at the peak of their fertility and sexual attractiveness, are simply not that interested in men who can offer "resources" and "life experience" and nothing else.

 

[VeryFuglyNiyguhs]

I don't think carnivore sucks. It just depends on which version of carnivore. Prettyboy's version with pork, dairy, organ meats, and eggs is a disaster going to happen. Paul Saladino did the same thing and ended up QUITTING carnivore. Liver king looks horrible for 47. Shawn baker didn't quit but he doesn't eat organ meats. But he eats eggs so it's still not ideal.

 

[NoaA99]

This post was never meant to be my magnum opus, rather just a just a quick writeup to estabilish the general framework I will elaborate on in my further posts.




I think we are in the same boat here - both of us conclude that while fighting success (and it's indicative physical characteristics) do matter for male attractveness, it does not come first in importance in most cases.

On whether the natural state of humans is females choosing partners or rather intrasexual competition, I am not sure, I am on top of the fence. While the currently unfolding, post-patriarchal social order does seems to indicate that it is indeed ultimately females doing most of the partner selection, this does assumes that what we are witnessing currently is the regression of the world to pre-historic times socially. I find it just as likely that the post-modern, digital environment we live in is in fact not synonimous with the natural state of things and if societal order were to be completely broken down, intrasexual competition between men would skyrocket.​

I can only repeat the first paragraph of this reply of mine - fighters are indeed far from being the most popular celebrities among women, which should be a sign that their genes are not what females seek the most.



I think it's hard to decide which profession of celebrities are the most popular with women, especially because usually these male celebrities regardless of their niche are physically incredibly attractive, which brings us back the physical aspect, even though they might win the hearts of women with their work (i.e. actors)



Great point - indeed, neurodivergence might have been a too broad term to use. I was mostly thinking about men on the autistic spectrum: that's a social death sentence. Things, like being a schizo are also detrimental, but on the other hand neurodivergences like psychopathy might even be beneficial.



I intentionally didn't want to touch on the question of youth as I'm planning to unpack that topic in it's own discussion. I've became a subscriber of the antagonistic pleitropy hypothesis in regard to the hormone DHT - I think males peak in the early 20s in attractiveness, then fall off as they get older. The commonly held belief that men age gracefully is I believe a remnant of the patriarchal thinking, because in the past, due to the provider role of men, time indeed brought more resources. This is no longer the case, men peak in athleticism in their early 20s and that's where they are the most potent as mating partners.



I always found this to be self-explanatory if we take a look at the outside world. Some high class women might fetishize low class brutes, but the general trend is clear - the higher you go in the societal ladder, the more refined people's tastes get in the opposite gender.

The gender swapped version of this is also very apparent: low class men usually prefer 'thicc' women - who almost resemble the Venus of Willendorf - while upperclassmen tend to prefer women with slim figures.

Men don’t necessarily peak during the early 20s. It’s more towards the mid 20s and the peak, given that the individual took care of himself, usually plateaus until the late 20s/ early 30s. At that point slow decline starts to set in.
So for most guys the mid to late 20s should be the absolute prime age.

 

[halloweed]

Abstract

Throughout the years of being on PSL, I have read numerous threads about what makes a man attractive - some of it were really thought provoking, others less so, while others were just empirically not correct and reflected a personal bias from the poster's own life. Long story short, I was not satisfied with how logically inconsistent some ot the claims were, so hereby I propose a logical framework, from which attractiveness can be judged. In my mind, the closer a man is to being a perfect hunter genetically, the better he will fare in the walks of life, be it romantically, in his career or socially.​

A little historical context

To understand where I will be coming from further down, first let's talk a bit about the traditional way humans lived versus how patriarchy affected the socieites throughout the world until very recently, when the sexual liberation of women started to bring humanity back to it's archaic roots at a societal level. With the start of the agriculture in ancient times, humans started to eat food for cheap calories which they haver never eaten before - plants, more specifically grains, legumes and vegetables. With possessions becoming inheritable, the instituion of marriage was created, hence the provider role of men emerged; this replaced men's previous duty: being outside in the wilderness during the day with their male peers, in order to hunt for animals which can be brought back to their family, where the women were ready to prepare the fresh game. Patriarchy, through the creation of organized religions, have kept female sexuality at bay until very recently - this allowed men to gain the ability to mate by following a meritocratic logic. Institutions and laws like paying dowry to her dad or punishing adultery has ensured that ultimately men that contributed toward the community reproduced, while rogue ones mostly not. Fast forward into 2024, patriarchy is dead in the West, hence the chains on female sexuality are broken, which means they now get to choose again the men they always found physically attractive - the ones that resemble the archaic hunter the most.

Being a genetically good hunter has many contributing attributes, which encompasse both physical and mental characteristics. To make it articulate, I will break these into three parts:​

• Body​
• Mental​
• Face​

(although keep in mind everything is interconnected as a system, as we are talking about the human body)


First, body.

The female body at it's core is rather simple to describe - from head to toe it is specialized to give birth and raise the children until puberty kicks in; in contrast, the male body is like a Swiss knife - it is equipped outrun preys, fight animals & other men, conquer the wildneress through muscle power / agility / endurance, build and to to destroy. These can be categorized into two general functions: mobility and fighting.

Mobility involves running both sprints and distance, jumping, swimming etc. - mostly things that you would find in the agenda of an athletics competition; which already explains which is the most desirable body type for women: the one that of a classical athlete. Some key characteristics contributing to being a good athlete are:​

• Being lean, above all - every single gram of excess fat is a handicap to your mobility.
• Wide shoulders combined with a narrow waist - the torque this combination generates is crucial both for running and throwing things
• Muscle insertions - they imply potential power output, e.g. in the case of calves and sprinting

The most attractive male physiques (involving solo mobility sports) belong to sprinters - look for those short-distance athletes who compete in the 100m, 200m and 400m races. Noticeable mentions are javelin throwers, long jumpers and in some cases, olympic swimmers too.

Fighting in nature can occur against a beast or against a rival man, as part of the mating competition. Some physical traits that contribute to a higher fighting success:​

• Skeletal size (stature) - most importantly, being simply bigger than the other man already gives you the upperhand in the fight
• Reach / limb length - having longer extremities grants your punches and kicks an opportunity to reach the opponent before he can do anything against it
• Wrist size - robust wrists are a prerequisite for strong punching power and are a strong indicative of your skeleton's overall robustness
• High proportion of fast-twitch muscle fibers - like with sprinting, posessing overwhelmingly these type of slow-twitch fibers gives you an explosive & power output advantage

For the male physiques with the highest fighting success, look for the competitors in the most potent combat sports: boxing, thai boxing, kick boxing, wrestling.

The ideal male physique hence is one that either excels in either one of these two, or makes a powerful compromise between them. Now professional sportsmen choose their distinct sports based on their body's genetical predispositon and then excel in that one sport. Just like them, we too are all born with different bodies, which may give us advantages or disadvantages in different disciplines. In general, however if you want an ideal, archaic hunter phyique that women find the most appealing, you should choose sports from power athletics and fighting sports mostly - feel free to mix them up: as I said in the beginning, the male body is supposed to be like a Swiss knive. Combining sprinting with boxing for example is a fantastic combination. But you also need contitioning, else you won't have the necessary muscles to do these - which brings us to the next point, weightlifting.

Weightlifting in the gym is a modern shortcut for muscular hypertrophy and should be treated as such, it is streamlined to stimulate progressive overload in a controlled environment - it is anything, but archaic. Training in the gym has become necessary as most of us live otherwise sedentary lifestyles - but always treat it as not an end goal on itself but as a road to athleticism.

We cannot go further without mentioning the female vs the male gaze at this point. The previous paragraphs about general athleticism broadly speaking encompassed what the overwhelming majority of healthy women find attractive in a man - hence the term, female gaze. If we went back in time a century ago, this whole paragraph would have been pointless to write as the female & male idea of male attractiveness would have been convergent. With the advent of anabolic steroids in the 20th century however, this has changed. Deeply rooted in homosexuality, first anabolic steroids, then later subtances like - human growth hormone - gave rise to a divergence in the female & male perception of the ideal male physique. Women's biology- obviously - didn't change in under a century, so at this day of age in 2024, they find the same athletic, hunter bodies the most attractive as they found in prehistoric times. Big bulging physiques from steroid abuse give women the ick; if you goal is not to be celebrated by the homosexual community, then stick to being natural and concentrate on being as lean as possible, while building muscle defitions that helps you being athletic.​

Second, mental.

In the previous section, I have written about what gives a man the necesarry physical base to be a succesful hunter. However, humanity has risen to be the apex predator of this planet because we possess something that other animals don't: our evolved brains allows us to effectively communicate and cooperate with each other, which makes a predatpr that all others fear in the wild. Alone, we are easily overpowered by many animals - even the world's fastest man is made a joke by just about any quadrupedal animal in a sprint; or like how a chimpanzee can rip a person's arm off due to the difference in our central nervous systems. We function best as a part of a tribe. Male & male bonding is more ad hoc than female & female, because the relationship between men ultimately boils down to being hunting mates. Men build connection with each other under struggle and hardship they go through with each other - a hunt. The friends you surround yourself with, your work colleagues, your teammates, they all represent a hunting group in an abstract sense; and just like the old archaic hunting days, contemporary male groups also always involve a hierarchy - even if it isn't written anywhere, there is always a leader, many followers, foot soldiers at the bottom.

A little throwback to sports - make no mistake, it's not a coincidence, that the most popular, most widely celebrated sports worlwide are team sports where athleticism is highly involved. The needed mobility showcases to women the sportmen's physical ability, while their team work shows their ability to cooperate. Football (association & American), basketball (NBA), rugby, cricket etc. are watched by billions of heavily involved fans worlwide because these sports all represent a modern, abstract way of hunting. The two competing teams of players in women's brains are two rival hunting groups - the genetically better one wins.

This is why being neurotypical and an extrovert are so crucial. By having the same general brain structure as the majority of people, the group has strong cohesion as everyone conforms to the social hierachy, follows the unwritten social rules, so that the group can accomplish the hunt (which in today's world might be a work / school project for example).

Women hate neurodivergent and otherwise atypical men because they represent a disruption in the group mechanics - for example a group of autists would make a terrible hunting gang as everyone would have difficulty in communication with each other and their divergent personalities would clash with each other, resulting in an unsucessful hunt.​

Third, the face.

While face is the most imporant out of anything the human body encompasses, I intentionally left it to be the last of the three, because ot already reflects basically everything about the other two. It tells everything about your physical condition:

• Hollow cheeks with a chiseled, angular jawline signal that you are lean, meaning you excel in mobility
• Hunter eyes combined with compact eye sockets, a robust mandible, prominent browridge, wide neck etc. - all signs that you possess higher than average fighting chance

Likewise, your mental state is readable from your facial (micro)expressions - a woman is able to gauge within milliseconds just by taking a glance at your face whether you are neurotypical or neurodivergent, confident or an abused dog.

Face is the most important because as soon as humans have stopped hunting solitarity and gathered into hunting groups, the physical attributes no longer were the only determinants of hunting success. Ever since, looking at each other's face is used to quickly & efficiently create the hierarchy withing the hunting group, so the hunt (in modern terms the work, activity etc.) can begin. This is why ever since that point, not only the visible mobility and fighting success indicators of the face matter, but also it's perceived ability to socialize with other people. For example a person with gigantism might have fantastic fighting ability with their large, bony skull, but their face probably provokes much less trust in the eyes of another person, than if their face was more harmonious and refined. A male face might not have a high perceived fight success score, but it's symmetry signal overall healthiness & mobility - the case of prettyboys.

While both mobility and fighting success are useful traits for a hunter, the first is arguably lot more so. That's why empirically speaking, most women tend to favour a the lean, athletic figure with a harmonious face on top - prettyboys/men. The minority of women prefer a man with a build heavily built toward fighting success - ogres. Despite this, the male gaze usually glorifies the latter as seeing a big ogre in front of you is much more threating as a fighting opponent, than a man with a lean build but with and aesthetics face. Women care about fighting success if they themselves are in non-secure environments - this explains why prefering ogres over prettyboys is so much more common in lower social classes, than in higher circles.​

Summary

This post was meant to give a logical origin point for the discussion of male attractiveness. It is in no way complete, I tried to just touch as many relevant topics as possible to give you a framework. It also acts a guide to my posts, why I write what I write about aesthetics, this is the logical starting point from where I am trying to deduce today's society working mechanics. ​

So basically be Tyler Maher?