MSDO questions

[OOGABOOGA]

@CopeAndRope
I know a good bit about mse:
-hurts like a bitch til you split the suture, then not that big of a deal

But I don’t really know shit about msdo. Seems like a brilliant procedure but also painful af to be progressively splitting your jaw in half basically. What do you know about how painful it is, how long it takes, recovery, etc. Even if it’s way worse than mse I still want it but just curious about what you’ve read.

 

[CopeAndRope]

There's a really well-documented treatment done on an Indian guy. It's interesting to see how the mandibular distraction and the maxillary expansion influenced the surrounding areas. He also got a genio.

I think it's going to be more painful than MSE because you're not splitting a suture, but properly cutting a bone in two. How long it takes it depends on what are your goals, the Indian guy was expanding the chin at 0.5mm every 12 hours (1mm per day). The recovery time changes based on the individual.

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[OOGABOOGA]

There's a really well-documented treatment done on an Indian guy. It's interesting to see how the mandibular distraction and the maxillary expansion influenced the surrounding areas. He also got a genio.

I think it's going to be more painful than MSE because you're not splitting a suture, but properly cutting a bone in two. How long it takes it depends on what are your goals, the Indian guy was expanding the chin at 0.5mm every 12 hours (1mm per day). The recovery time changes based on the individual.
View attachment 165333

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Fuuuuck that’s crazy fast. I know that’s the same speed as LL but I didn’t think they go so fast with face. Also way faster than mse. How would you time the two procedures? Mse til you get ideal expansion, let’s say 10mm and then follow it up with 10 days of msdo? Or overlapping somehow

 

[OOGABOOGA]

Well I don’t know a scenario where they’d do much more than 10mm. And that sounds like a lot in most cases regarding face but when it’s the width of the whole lower third its less significant. Definitely still an improvement and probably necessary assuming you do mse and get significant expansion.

 

[CopeAndRope]

Fuuuuck that’s crazy fast. I know that’s the same speed as LL but I didn’t think they go so fast with face. Also way faster than mse. How would you time the two procedures? Mse til you get ideal expansion, let’s say 10mm and then follow it up with 10 days of msdo? Or overlapping somehow

I have yet to confirm with the doc.

I was expecting to see more of a significant difference in jaw width?

As shown in this study the transversal bone displacement it's not homogenous, but gradually decreases.

Also, there's a chance that the length of your tongue decreases by 2mm due to the widening, jfl.

Posteroanterior cephalometric analysis showed significant transversal width increases between the mandibular canines and molars. No significant pharyngeal or transverse nasal airway changes occurred with MSDO except for a significant decrease in tongue length. However, MSDO followed by RME caused statistically significant but clinically small changes in oropharyngeal width (+1.0 mm), tongue length (-2.2 mm), vertical airway length (-2.3 mm), and vertical position of the hyoid bone (-1.4 mm), which were all stable at the 2-year follow-up.

 

[OOGABOOGA]

@CopeAndRope
Ok keep us posted about the doc. Btw I just got recommended by an endo to see a sleep doctor today. I’ve got lots of low t symptoms but not all and am 20, muscularish, dimorphic, etc. She agreed that sleep apnea is the most likely theory. On Monday I’ll call won moons office and get recommendations for mse practitioners near me(Chicago so there’s bound to be someone). Is msdo done by maxillofacial surgeon or ortho. I’d guess surgeon. I’ve got a consult with one of those in 3-4 weeks. Ball is rolling

 

[CopeAndRope]

@CopeAndRope
Ok keep us posted about the doc. Btw I just got recommended by an endo to see a sleep doctor today. I’ve got lots of low t symptoms but not all and am 20, muscularish, dimorphic, etc. She agreed that sleep apnea is the most likely theory. On Monday I’ll call won moons office and get recommendations for mse practitioners near me(Chicago so there’s bound to be someone). Is msdo done by maxillofacial surgeon or ortho. I’d guess surgeon. I’ve got a consult with one of those in 3-4 weeks. Ball is rolling

MSDOs are done by maxillofacial surgeons.

 

[OOGABOOGA]

MSDOs are done by maxillofacial surgeons.

Nice. What do you have to have wrong to justify doing it?

 

[CopeAndRope]

Nice. What do you have to have wrong to justify doing it?

Crooked teeth, narrow palate, sleep apnea, etc..

 

[OOGABOOGA]

Crooked teeth, narrow palate, sleep apnea, etc..

Aight so if my test goes right and I have apnea that’ll justify both mse and msdo?

 

[CopeAndRope]

Aight so if my test goes right and I have apnea that’ll justify both mse and msdo?

It depends on the doc. I have none of those things. I justify it with cold hard cash. Also because what happens if you medically need only 5mm, but aesthetically you need 12mm? Some doc will not let you expand further.

 

[OOGABOOGA]

It depends on the doc. I have none of those things. I justify it with cold hard cash. Also because what happens if you medically need only 5mm, but aesthetically you need 12mm? Some doc will not let you expand further.

Blue pilled faggots for prioritizing health. I’m hoping for insurance with sleep apnea but I suppose that’d just be for the medically appropriate distance. Maybe I can get my parents to cover or take out of my college fund since I dropped to do coding bootcamp but insurance will have to take the bulk of it for them to be on board.

 

[forwardgrowth]

Fuck i love this

 

[OOGABOOGA]

Fuck i love this

Wym, the prospect of improving?

 

[forwardgrowth]

Wym, the prospect of improving?

Yeah the MDSO article is great recent breakdown on the rare technique, I hope to do MDSO alongside IMDO doing MSE rn

 

[OOGABOOGA]

What’s imdo? And you’re doing mse right now?!
@forwardgrowth

 

[forwardgrowth]

What’s imdo? And you’re doing mse right now?!
@forwardgrowth

IMDO is to bring the mandible forward and widen posterior portion, yes I did one round of expansion of 10mm however my mid face is too super long going to do one more round at 12mm to help widen zygo and create the illusion of less long midface

 

[OOGABOOGA]

IMDO is to bring the mandible forward and widen posterior portion, yes I did one round of expansion of 10mm however my mid face is too super long going to do one more round at 12mm to help widen zygo and create the illusion of less long midface

Way to go bro! You’re a true looksmaxxer. Did mse increase you’re ipd? Also has it increased or decreased symmetry of your face? Are you using a fp or fm?

 

[forwardgrowth]

TY brother! by only 1mm 60mm to 61mm, increased symmetry definitely more zygo flare, lip width not using facemask yet I need to REALLY do that this round to save tragic midface ratio of death ahaha

 

[OOGABOOGA]

TY brother! by only 1mm 60mm to 61mm, increased symmetry definitely more zygo flare, lip width not using facemask yet I need to REALLY do that this round to save tragic midface ratio of death ahaha

Super encouraging man! I haven’t measured my ipd but it’s definitely sub 60 and my maxilla/zygos on the left are lower. I’m expecting that I’ll get greater movement on the left to improve the symmetry and the facepuller being evenly placed in the middle should help this too. You should talk to your doc about C&Rs puller and see if they’ll make that for you. Or you could just build it yourself minus the palate part and hook it to the mse. Should be cool to hear their take. You in the states?

 

[forwardgrowth]

Super encouraging man! I haven’t measured my ipd but it’s definitely sub 60 and my maxilla/zygos on the left are lower. I’m expecting that I’ll get greater movement on the left to improve the symmetry and the facepuller being evenly placed in the middle should help this too. You should talk to your doc about C&Rs puller and see if they’ll make that for you. Or you could just build it yourself minus the palate part and hook it to the mse. Should be cool to hear their take. You in the states?

Yes in the states, I decided to go with FM I told my ortho about it because IMDO requires I 10mm overjet of upper teeth, I said this would be good for that, MSE will help your ipd, do it twice if needed, facemask will help your symmetry aswell

 

[ldar = cope]

ogre surgery

too much hassle and risks for very low reward

 

[OOGABOOGA]

Yes in the states, I decided to go with FM I told my ortho about it because IMDO requires I 10mm overjet of upper teeth, I said this would be good for that, MSE will help your ipd, do it twice if needed, facemask will help your symmetry aswell

Hmmm that’s a good point, I was thinking of using fp until I got an overbite and then getting bsso/imdo but if the chin isn’t being pushed back the mandible will swing with the maxilla. So then for the same reasons the fp is generally better than fm, fm might actually better in this situation.

If my bite lines up atm how long do you think it would take to get a cm overbite via fm?

 

[forwardgrowth]

Hmmm that’s a good point, I was thinking of using fp until I got an overbite and then getting bsso/imdo but if the chin isn’t being pushed back the mandible will swing with the maxilla. So then for the same reasons the fp is generally better than fm, fm might actually better in this situation.

if you put more than 1.5g forces on the MSE it might break as well, Imo don't use fp, good idea max out upper jaw first then imdo

 

[CopeAndRope]

if you put more than 1.5g forces on the MSE it might break as well, Imo don't use fp, good idea max out upper jaw first then imdo

The pressure will be spread to the 2nd molars. I'll most likely keep the MSE installed after the expansion, for retention and to continue the expansion on the sagittal plane. This MSE is not mine. It's Ronald Ead's.

I’m sure if you were 10 years younger you would be in dental school. You seem to be very passionate and knowledgeable.

This is the power of weaponized autism

 

[OOGABOOGA]

if you put more than 1.5g forces on the MSE it might break as well, Imo don't use fp, good idea max out upper jaw first then imdo

The pressure will be spread to the 2nd molars. I'll most likely keep the MSE installed after the expansion, for retention and to continue the expansion on the sagittal plane. This MSE is not mine. It's Ronald Ead's.
View attachment 165792


This is the power of weaponized autism

So you think it’s fine to just replace the inside the mouth parts of your appliance with the mse? Might be a move. Also @CopeAndRope if I were to use the fm instead of the fp how long do you think it would take to get a significant enough overbite to justify imdo or bsso?(cm i suppose)


And @forwardgrowth how hard was it for you to find a doc and get started on mse, roughly where in the country are you(as vague as you wish, I’m in Chicago). Also idk if you’ve said this but what was your diagnosis, and is it being covered by insurance?

 

[CopeAndRope]

So you think it’s fine to just replace the inside the mouth parts of your appliance with the mse? Might be a move. Also @CopeAndRope if I were to use the fm instead of the fp how long do you think it would take to get a significant enough overbite to justify imdo or bsso?(cm i suppose)

I don't understand your question. Instead of my infra-oral appliance, I'll use the mse anchored to the molars to pull forward.

So you wanna use the fm to block the chin while you pull the upper jaw forward so you can be covered by the insurance for the overbite you purposely created? That's diabolical lol.

Regarding the time, it depends on how high is the pulling force and for how long will you endure it every day. I think 5mm should be enough.

 

[OOGABOOGA]

I don't understand your question. Instead of my infra-oral appliance, I'll use the mse anchored to the molars to pull forward.

Yeah that’s what I mean.

So you wanna use the fm to block the chin while you pull the upper jaw forward so you can be covered by the insurance for the overbite you purposely created? That's diabolical lol.

Regarding the time, it depends on how high is the pulling force and for how long will you endure it every day. I think 5mm should be enough.

just might work though who knows? Kind of like running a cycle to crash your test so you can get trt prescribed. I think I’m gonna try to get my dad do a sarm cycle to lean down a bit and then get that. His test is like 400(mid 50s)

I wrap school in 1-2 months, hopefully I’ll get the appliance around that time so I can just sit and home and practice coding while wearing the mask 20+ hrs/day. Do you know of any cases where the fm has caused an overbite in a patient with a previously normal bite? Seems like a pretty glaring design flaw if that’s the case but if so I can exploit it.

Forward growth said he’s pursuing round 2 of mse so maybe I can do two round back to back wearing the mask like all day. Let’s say 18 hrs/day for 9 months assuming a break between rounds. Then follow that with msdo and imdo to widen and project the mandible accordingly. Potential for 20mm lateral expansion and maybe 10 forward followed by 10 with the mandible. All in a year or less. Am I crazy or did we crack the code?

 

[CopeAndRope]

Do you know of any cases where the fm has caused an overbite in a patient with a previously normal bite? Seems like a pretty glaring design flaw if that’s the case but if so I can exploit it.

The fm is designed and used to fix underbites, is not recommended for other cases.

Forward growth said he’s pursuing round 2 of mse so maybe I can do two round back to back wearing the mask like all day. Let’s say 18 hrs/day for 9 months assuming a break between rounds. Then follow that with msdo and imdo to widen and project the mandible accordingly. Potential for 20mm lateral expansion and maybe 10 forward followed by 10 with the mandible. All in a year or less. Am I crazy or did we crack the code?

That's overkill. Keep in mind the transversal expansion of mse influences your IPD as well. You don't want the IPD of a fish, right? And who knows what other bone structurally complications can arise after too many mm of expansion.

Expand slow, and be sure when to stop. Not everyone has to reach 12mm. Focus on the right ratios of your face, don't expand greedily or blindly.

 

[OOGABOOGA]

The fm is designed and used to fix underbites, is not recommended for other cases.



That's overkill. Keep in mind the transversal expansion of mse influences your IPD as well. You don't want the IPD of a fish, right? And who knows what other bone structurally complications can arise after too many mm of expansion.

Expand slow, and be sure when to stop. Not everyone has to reach 12mm. Focus on the right ratios of your face, don't expand greedily or blindly.

I have low ipd, that’s one of the biggest motives for going with mse. And since my tongue doesn’t fit between my teeth my imw is definitely sub 40mm. Depending on how low it might justify 2 expansions. Doc won’t like it most likely but if we pay enough it may be ideal for me.

Also my zygos are basically flat sideways across my face, so I need to push them out/forward/up

 

[Deleted member 1553]

@CopeAndRope Who is this cunt and why is he using my avi?

 

[OOGABOOGA]

@CopeAndRope Who is this cunt and why is he using my avi?

Huh did you have that already or are you trolling?

 

[Deleted member 1553]

Huh did you have that already or are you trolling?

I did. Don't pretend you didn't know @Lorsss you can't let this happen to me. My avi is the only thin remotely interesting about me as a poster.

 

[OOGABOOGA]

I did. Don't pretend you didn't know @Lorsss you can't let this happen to me. My avi is the only thin remotely interesting about me as a poster.

Idk lorss either ngl I hadn’t seen your avi. Im pretty new here. I’ll swap it idgaf

 

[Deleted member 1553]

Idk lorss either ngl I hadn’t seen your avi. Im pretty new here. I’ll swap it idgaf

Yes bro.

 

[OOGABOOGA]

Yes bro.

Changed to my biological father
Nvm gifs broken
there we go
nvm this site is broken

 

[kota]

Instead of my infra-oral appliance, I'll use the mse anchored to the molars to pull forward.

How do you plan on anchoring your facepull device to the MSE? Or are you switching to a facemask from the ortho?

 

[CopeAndRope]

How do you plan on anchoring your facepull device to the MSE? Or are you switching to a facemask from the ortho?

I'll use orthodontic rubber bands attached to those hooks.

 

[kota]

I'll use orthodontic rubber bands attached to those hooks.
View attachment 166647

Nice. Are you expecting to actually get CCW rotation of the jaws with the facepull?

 

[CopeAndRope]

Nice. Are you expecting to actually get CCW rotation of the jaws with the facepull?

Theoretically, yes. Practically, we'll see.

 

[kota]

Theoretically, yes. Practically, we'll see.

I'd love to see evidence of this. Considering trying this instead of surgical bimax with CCW. Seems almost too good to be true.

In this study they claimed to get CCW rotation without surgery so it seems possible: https://www.orthodonticproductsonli...impaction-aligners-tads-low-pulsatile-forces/

Legit results by the looks of it too.

 

[PubertyMaxxer]

I'll use orthodontic rubber bands attached to those hooks.
View attachment 166647

Breakthrough tbh

After you finished your mse expansion for example 10mm, will you get 10 days of msdo 1mm expansion after than

Why would we need imdo to displace the mandible sagittaly
Doesn't the Bimaxillary Facepuller not block the chin
The mandible should swing up when the msxills swings up or no?

@CopeAndRope

 

[looksmax0698]

Is it possible to get an MSE/MSDO after double jaw?

 

[PubertyMaxxer]

Copesurgery

 

[Deleted member 4887]

Copesurgery

Why?

 

[OOGABOOGA]

Copesurgery

Correct me if I’m wrong but I think the only non cope surgery for you is LL