retard
rides a short bus to school
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2019
- Posts
- 2,699
- Reputation
- 7,990
So a few days ago i made a post about MSE and expanding the mandible, then i started measuring the changes of the mandible and started getting mixed results, btw you will need to read this thread to understand most of this thread, https://looksmax.org/threads/how-th...ible-with-mse-alone-high-iqcels-gtfih.146161/ , I have altered the theory slightly from the original thread but the premise is still the same
So I used the ear as a constant then measured the mandible from the top of the lips, since its harder to chew with MSE we will assume the masseters did not grow eliminating that variable. I will skip the math but it comes down to about 7mm of mandibular expansion. This is not immediately noticeable because the cheekbones expanded proportionally. I did several others and some would have really good changes, and some would have very minimal changes and i seriously couldnt figure out why this was happening. Similar amounts of expansion were being done, which would mean the temporal bones would be pushed out a similar amount, which should mean the mandibular condyles and the coronoid process should also be getting stressed a similar amount. I started searching around and i found this study done by Moon himself- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6196147/
Bone bending takes place in the zygomatic process of the temporal bone during miniscrew-supported maxillary expansion.
this may not seem very important- but it is literally fucking massive, it essentially means that instead of the zygos transporting the mechanical force to the temporal bone (where it then would apply tensive stress to the mandibular condyle and coronoid process) the zygomatic doesnt transport the energy, and uses it up to bend the bone.
This is the zygomatic process, as you can see it is the "transporter" of force from the MSE device, to the temporal bone and then to the mandibular complex where the forces would then cause expansion there. The force is lost nearly entirely before it makes it to the temporal bone, due to the forces applied being too much for the zygomatic process to transport, and it results in a deformation of the bone which obviously takes energy, now that the energy is gone, there is none left applying tensive forces that will make its way to the mandible, preventing expansion, this is why MSE will expand the mandible in younger patients, the temporal bone is much more malleable and able to reposition, and secondly kids using MSE expand about half the rate that adults do.
We need to get the force to the temporal bone so it can then expand the mandible, but how do we prevent it from simply bending the zygomatic process, easy slow expansion, you need to give your body time for bone remodelling to take place and for Wolff's law to do its thing, MSE applies such heavy forces that the bone simply has no time to remodel, and therefor the only option it has is to deform to absorb the energy. The younger you are the better as it will mean your temporal bone will be more malleable.
By doing slow expansion with MSE, you can get the equivalent of a MSDO, this is literally massive.
Someone also said on TGW forum that Won Moon said that slow MSE expansion results in more midfacial changes = slow expansion, literally everything, as of now i do not know the mechanism of how this would work but i would think it has something to do with allowing bone remodelling to take place and not just deformation, i will have to do further research.
Now lets talk MSE + FM
For anyone who has never read a facepulling study, you might not know how significant this is, it probably doesnt look like that much change at all, but it is literally insane
I will now post another study with another lateral ceph for comparison
That minute difference comes out to 1.5 mm of forward maxillary movement, now when you look at MSE pulling you can appreciate it slightly more.
Doing some math tricks with ratios you can find out how many mm's the maxilla advanced using ratios. Are you ready?
That is 1mm of forward growth a month, holy shit, although this person probably wore the FM for 18-20 hours a day, that is a small price to pay for the equivalent of a giga lefort-3, not to mention this took literally 10 months, that is insane.
Due to the location of the MSE implant it is not very good for CCW rotation, i do not even know if CCW rotation is possible with MSE, which is a massive part to aesthetics and can completely make or break under eye support and midface length (arguably some of the two single most important individual features) , daddy retard has a plan for you though
Hard mewing with only the very tip of your tongue at the incisive papilla will be able to easily CCW rotate the maxilla, and combined with chewing on the frontal teeth, insane upwards force will be put into the very front part of the maxilla, which is what causes CCW rotation, with the extreme responsiveness of the sutures, this will be more than sufficient to influence vertical growth
I will post this here for the inevitable retards who will comment saying "wow what a fucking tard, thinks he can rotate his maxilla from mewing and chewing lawl dude
)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21262936/ - As the masseter became larger, the anterior maxillary region tended to shift downwards relative to the cranial base
In simple terms it means that typical chewing is enough to CW rotate the maxilla on its own, more proof that chewing with the molars increases midface length btw
combined with hard mewing + blackpilled chewing you could do some serious upswing, probably enough to decrease PFH by several mm's.
I will now summarize the benefits of slow expanding MSE + Facepulling
Wider cheekbones from frontal
More prominent ogee curve from 3/4
Higherset zygos from CCW
Wider bigonial width
Wider palate
Wider lips
Possibly wider IPD and PFL, depending on factors like expansion speed and age
Hollow cheeks
Upswing in nasal tip
Decreased midface length
Insane amounts of forward growth
Increased canthil tilt
Higherset and more angular under eye support
Forward growth of the mandible given you keep your molars in light contact
this is from one single, noninvasive procedure, MSE + FM has regained its title as the holy grail of looksmaxxing
i will now post my math here for the forward growth calculation earlier as it is quite hard to believe, you can leave now if you want
you use the molar as a constant to make a ratio to proportionate the pixels and their relative mm's
Left molar is 46 pixels, right is 37, gives you a conversion ratio of 1.24
The length from back of maxilla to a point on left is initally 125 pixels, to 123. The forward movement of the maxilla was 1.5mm, meaning 1 pixel = .75mm
The distance from back of maxilla to a point on right is 86 to 97 pixels, meaning 11 pixels of forward movement, each pixel is .75 mm. 11 x .75 =8.25
Lastly you use the converting ratio we got earlier, 8.25 x 1.24 = 10.23 mm's of pure forward growth
So I used the ear as a constant then measured the mandible from the top of the lips, since its harder to chew with MSE we will assume the masseters did not grow eliminating that variable. I will skip the math but it comes down to about 7mm of mandibular expansion. This is not immediately noticeable because the cheekbones expanded proportionally. I did several others and some would have really good changes, and some would have very minimal changes and i seriously couldnt figure out why this was happening. Similar amounts of expansion were being done, which would mean the temporal bones would be pushed out a similar amount, which should mean the mandibular condyles and the coronoid process should also be getting stressed a similar amount. I started searching around and i found this study done by Moon himself- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6196147/
Bone bending takes place in the zygomatic process of the temporal bone during miniscrew-supported maxillary expansion.
this may not seem very important- but it is literally fucking massive, it essentially means that instead of the zygos transporting the mechanical force to the temporal bone (where it then would apply tensive stress to the mandibular condyle and coronoid process) the zygomatic doesnt transport the energy, and uses it up to bend the bone.
This is the zygomatic process, as you can see it is the "transporter" of force from the MSE device, to the temporal bone and then to the mandibular complex where the forces would then cause expansion there. The force is lost nearly entirely before it makes it to the temporal bone, due to the forces applied being too much for the zygomatic process to transport, and it results in a deformation of the bone which obviously takes energy, now that the energy is gone, there is none left applying tensive forces that will make its way to the mandible, preventing expansion, this is why MSE will expand the mandible in younger patients, the temporal bone is much more malleable and able to reposition, and secondly kids using MSE expand about half the rate that adults do.
We need to get the force to the temporal bone so it can then expand the mandible, but how do we prevent it from simply bending the zygomatic process, easy slow expansion, you need to give your body time for bone remodelling to take place and for Wolff's law to do its thing, MSE applies such heavy forces that the bone simply has no time to remodel, and therefor the only option it has is to deform to absorb the energy. The younger you are the better as it will mean your temporal bone will be more malleable.
By doing slow expansion with MSE, you can get the equivalent of a MSDO, this is literally massive.
Someone also said on TGW forum that Won Moon said that slow MSE expansion results in more midfacial changes = slow expansion, literally everything, as of now i do not know the mechanism of how this would work but i would think it has something to do with allowing bone remodelling to take place and not just deformation, i will have to do further research.
Now lets talk MSE + FM
For anyone who has never read a facepulling study, you might not know how significant this is, it probably doesnt look like that much change at all, but it is literally insane
I will now post another study with another lateral ceph for comparison
That minute difference comes out to 1.5 mm of forward maxillary movement, now when you look at MSE pulling you can appreciate it slightly more.
Doing some math tricks with ratios you can find out how many mm's the maxilla advanced using ratios. Are you ready?
10.2mm
That is 1mm of forward growth a month, holy shit, although this person probably wore the FM for 18-20 hours a day, that is a small price to pay for the equivalent of a giga lefort-3, not to mention this took literally 10 months, that is insane.
Due to the location of the MSE implant it is not very good for CCW rotation, i do not even know if CCW rotation is possible with MSE, which is a massive part to aesthetics and can completely make or break under eye support and midface length (arguably some of the two single most important individual features) , daddy retard has a plan for you though
Hard mewing with only the very tip of your tongue at the incisive papilla will be able to easily CCW rotate the maxilla, and combined with chewing on the frontal teeth, insane upwards force will be put into the very front part of the maxilla, which is what causes CCW rotation, with the extreme responsiveness of the sutures, this will be more than sufficient to influence vertical growth
I will post this here for the inevitable retards who will comment saying "wow what a fucking tard, thinks he can rotate his maxilla from mewing and chewing lawl dude
)https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21262936/ - As the masseter became larger, the anterior maxillary region tended to shift downwards relative to the cranial base
In simple terms it means that typical chewing is enough to CW rotate the maxilla on its own, more proof that chewing with the molars increases midface length btw
combined with hard mewing + blackpilled chewing you could do some serious upswing, probably enough to decrease PFH by several mm's.
I will now summarize the benefits of slow expanding MSE + Facepulling
Wider cheekbones from frontal
More prominent ogee curve from 3/4
Higherset zygos from CCW
Wider bigonial width
Wider palate
Wider lips
Possibly wider IPD and PFL, depending on factors like expansion speed and age
Hollow cheeks
Upswing in nasal tip
Decreased midface length
Insane amounts of forward growth
Increased canthil tilt
Higherset and more angular under eye support
Forward growth of the mandible given you keep your molars in light contact
this is from one single, noninvasive procedure, MSE + FM has regained its title as the holy grail of looksmaxxing
i will now post my math here for the forward growth calculation earlier as it is quite hard to believe, you can leave now if you want
you use the molar as a constant to make a ratio to proportionate the pixels and their relative mm's
Left molar is 46 pixels, right is 37, gives you a conversion ratio of 1.24
The length from back of maxilla to a point on left is initally 125 pixels, to 123. The forward movement of the maxilla was 1.5mm, meaning 1 pixel = .75mm
The distance from back of maxilla to a point on right is 86 to 97 pixels, meaning 11 pixels of forward movement, each pixel is .75 mm. 11 x .75 =8.25
Lastly you use the converting ratio we got earlier, 8.25 x 1.24 = 10.23 mm's of pure forward growth
Attachments
Last edited:
