MSE+FM is GOD

[Deleted member 3990]

maybe hard mewing plus the suture split can be pretty good for a CCW rotation.

try mewing with that device blocking thy path

It’s not ideal to do 31+ for that reason

well, you cant say. Apparantely vector of distraction does not always translate into actualy movement of your maxilla as can be seen on the example here:

this is at -30° vector

but all from this study was a simulation

 

[shibo]

How do you convince your ortho to give you a facemask with the MSE? What’d you say

 

[patricknotstar]

15 year old gets sagittal changes in
8 DAYS

you should rope if you actually believe bone can move that much in 8 days

 

[curryslayerordeath]

that is a terrible result lol, obvious to see that her protraction was downwards and she ended up with a steeper mandibular plane, prob higher facial height, and lower nasolabial angle -> wouldve achieved better aesthetic results w lefort

legit the opposite of what all of us downward grown, recessed truecels should be looking for

did it mention what protraction angle was being pulled at?

 

[curryslayerordeath]

View attachment 466547View attachment 466548
F is +30°
This is where tensile stress applies. Red being the highest (I suppose)

View attachment 466550
This is where compressive strength applies

Is still havent figured out what this would truly mean because I am not a surgeon or scientist and nor do I have parameters to find that out that easily
Worrying is the high tensile stress on the sinus when you do +30° because I dont know in which direction the tensile stress is applied

I also dont know what the compressive strength would mean for the lateral orbits et cetera
We would have to try and I will also begin this journey at around august when we can fly again

can u link paper?

 

[Deleted member 3990]

can u link paper?

this should be must-read lecture if you look into this kind of stuff, otherwise you would blindly trust an orthojew who doesnt know any better himself

The efficacy of maxillary protraction protocols with the micro-implant-assisted rapid palatal expander (MARPE) and the novel N2 mini-implant—a finite element study

Maxillary protraction with the novel N2 mini-implant- and micro-implant-assisted rapid palatal expander (MARPE) can potentially provide significant skeletal effects without surgery, even in older patients where conventional facemask therapy has limited ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Deleted member 3020]

try mewing with that device blocking thy path

well, you cant say. Apparantely vector of distraction does not always translate into actualy movement of your maxilla as can be seen on the example here:

this is at -30° vector

but all from this study was a simulation

Hard mewing the tip of the palate, MSE is at the back of the palate

 

[Deleted member 3020]

you should rope if you actually believe bone can move that much in 8 days

She had a class III maloclusion, look at her lip, you can see it has changed. Therefore her maxilla has moved. Autism

 

[Deleted member 3020]

that is a terrible result lol, obvious to see that her protraction was downwards and she ended up with a steeper mandibular plane, prob higher facial height, and lower nasolabial angle -> wouldve achieved better aesthetic results w lefort

legit the opposite of what all of us downward grown, recessed truecels should be looking for

did it mention what protraction angle was being pulled at?

I know it’s a bad result, the reason I posted this is to show how fast the maxilla moved with MSE+FM, you can have upward angled pulling and more pulling time and get better results than her.

 

[Deleted member 3020]

@Dr Shekelberg
No loose maxilla either

 

[curryslayerordeath]

this should be must-read lecture if you look into this kind of stuff, otherwise you would blindly trust an orthojew who doesnt know any better himself

The efficacy of maxillary protraction protocols with the micro-implant-assisted rapid palatal expander (MARPE) and the novel N2 mini-implant—a finite element study

Maxillary protraction with the novel N2 mini-implant- and micro-implant-assisted rapid palatal expander (MARPE) can potentially provide significant skeletal effects without surgery, even in older patients where conventional facemask therapy has limited ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

i think the compressive stress at the lateral orbitals in some diagrams is a positive thing [aesthetically] since it translate to shorter vertical apertures of orbits. iirc the additional stress in simulation F is bc it involves a spring pushing up at the anterior tip of the maxilla (some guy from TGW who "claimed" to work in moon's lab said attempting to place it there would cause too much pain).

arent all of the simulations except A & B unrelated to what is possible currently? C-H are all done with the n2 micro-implants placed very far on the anterior or posterior maxilla which is nothing like conventional mse expansion or facemask therapy (hooks can only be at the second molar or middle of palate).

i may be completely misunderstanding the paper but...
seems as if protocol A is most relevant to protraction with the mse appliance, since the location of the facemask hooks is at the same position at the mse anchors. the -30 angle in the simulation shows some ccw tipping (which is kinda contrary to the general notion itt), so the best protraction method for rotation is to pull the posterior maxilla downwards?

I know it’s a bad result, the reason I posted this is to show how fast the maxilla moved with MSE+FM, you can have upward angled pulling and more pulling time and get better results than her.

why would u pull upward if the location of the hooks is close to the posterior side of the maxilla?

also growth at sutures and compressive force on the maxilla is completely different, hence being able to easily achieve growth downwards is nothing like ccw rotation of the complex.

 

[Deleted member 3020]

so the best protraction method for rotation is to pull the posterior maxilla downwards?

No. I assume it’s not possible to get CCW rotation with a face mask then, it’s not smart to pull anything down

 

[Deleted member 3591]

WRONG! It upswings when the maxilla goes forward, especially when the facepuller is pulling 30 degrees it will counterclockwise rotate and the mandible will rotate. Want proof? Here is what doctor Richard ting says. Plus here is what the office coordinator from my orthodontist who’s providing me MSE says.

Did you consult over internet?

 

[Deleted member 3020]

Did you consult over internet?

One virtual and one irl

 

[Realmadrid20]

Nice dude! I’m getting mine with Dr. Ting in August. Good luck!

 

[Deleted member 3020]

FUCKING NOT POSSIBLE TO GET CCW ROTATION WITH MSE+FM, but I don’t think I need CCW rotation tbh

 

[curryslayerordeath]

No. I assume it’s not possible to get CCW rotation with a face mask then, it’s not smart to pull anything down

 

[Deleted member 3020]

SHUT UP CURRY LOVER. CCW ROTATION ISNT EVERYTHING ESPECIALLY FOR ME BECHASE MY MJDFACE ALREADY SHORT

 

[Deleted member 3990]

arent all of the simulations except A & B unrelated to what is possible currently?

thats why I called them simulation

why would u pull upward if the location of the hooks is close to the posterior side of the maxilla?

also growth at sutures and compressive force on the maxilla is completely different, hence being able to easily achieve growth downwards is nothing like ccw rotation of the complex.

I cant imagine how one could even pull upwards on the posterior part with our given devices and methods
there is probably a reason why the implant of the 30° is on the atnerior I guess

to the latter, yes, Facemask would be just a nice to have device but I already calculate with most changes coming from both mse and msdo

i think the compressive stress at the lateral orbitals in some diagrams is a positive thing [aesthetically] since it translate to shorter vertical apertures of orbits

makes sense but it still bogles me how exactly you would feel the stress on your sinus if there are much tensile forces

Also, if -30° should allegedly give an upswing, then why did the one in OPs example seemingly achieve CW rotation, eventhough the doctor states that it was pulled at -35°
Or maybe I misread somewhere

 

[Deleted member 3020]

thats why I called them simulation


I cant imagine how one could even pull upwards on the posterior part with our given devices and methods
there is probably a reason why the implant of the 30° is on the atnerior I guess

to the latter, yes, Facemask would be just a nice to have device but I already calculate with most changes coming from both mse and msdo

makes sense but it still bogles me how exactly you would feel the stress on your sinus if there are much tensile forces

Also, if -30° should allegedly give an upswing, then why did the one in OPs example seemingly achieve CW rotation, eventhough the doctor states that it was pulled at -35°
Or maybe I misread somewhere

Bro pulling upward on the posterior maxilla will result in a clockwise rotation. It’s better to pull in a 180 degree angle. I will talk to my doctor about this, it’s not possible for a CCW rotation with MSE+FM, so discussion is over. Sagittal and transverse expansion only No coronal

 

[Deleted member 3990]

better to pull in a 180 degree angle

backwards?

@curryslayerordeath let us abandone this

 

[Deleted member 3020]

backwards?

@curryslayerordeath let us abandone this

Yes

 

[curryslayerordeath]

backwards?

@curryslayerordeath let us abandone this

some mind blowing physics going on

i think the favela case in OP might indicate smth tho


@Aeons pls help at least in this regard,
did the doc in the pic indicate where the hooks were placed? (i dont see them in the pic, but i may be blind)

 

[Deleted member 3020]

some mind blowing physics going on

i think the favela case in OP might indicate smth tho


@Aeons pls help at least in this regard,
did the doc in the pic indicate where the hooks were placed? (i dont see them in the pic, but i may be blind)

This isn’t crazy son, pull downward for counter clockwise rotation since it’s the back of the maxilla. Pull upward if it’s anchored to the front.

 

[Slayer]

 

[Deleted member 3020]

View attachment 467903

Just shut up. I said that to get the truth out of one of the best mse orthodontists If not the best.

 

[Slayer]

 

[Incoming]

indeed, aswell as a facemask
Eventhough I think I will get more braindamage from +30° vector through first principle of stress than with bonesmashing my browridge

+ 30 is too much. Few orthos even pull at a neutral angle. I'd say 15 degrees is more than enough angle

 

[s3-s3]

try mewing with that device blocking thy path

well, you cant say. Apparantely vector of distraction does not always translate into actualy movement of your maxilla as can be seen on the example here:

this is at -30° vector

but all from this study was a simulation

Is this from Face mask with CCW rotation? If it is then it’s LIFEFUEL. + does the mandible follow the maxilla or just stay in place?

 

[Deleted member 3020]

+ 30 is too much. Few orthos even pull at a neutral angle. I'd say 15 degrees is more than enough angle

You’re not supposed to pull 30, you pull -30 degree angle for CCW.