Occlusal Plane

[rares54]

I'd like some help please @thecel please be active

Or someone high IQ, what's my occlusal plane and did I draw the lines right?

 

[mewzilla]

sorry this isnt going to be a useful response cus i dont remember the planes thread at all but
if it wasnt ideal how would you even go about fixing it?

 

[rares54]

sorry this isnt going to be a useful response cus i dont remember the planes thread at all but
if it wasnt ideal how would you even go about fixing it?

Probably CCWR Bimax, but I doubt it isnt ideal because to me it doesn't look downgrown at all (the maxilla)

However many say I am downgrown, when in reality it's my mandible that is downswung, there is a difference. Downswung mandible cannot be fixed with bimax if the occlusal plane is already in the ideal range, it would give me SFS

 

[ICL]

hang on I'll do it

 

[rares54]

hang on I'll do it

I got 10 degrees, which is in the ideal range of 8-12 I think,

but the real problem is I dont know if the image is in frankfurt plane, because I can't see the orbital or tragion, mfs couldn't capture my whole skull

 

[ICL]

gonion to pogonion, which is 23 degrees. a cephalometrics reference beside

gonion to (gn) which is 33 degrees

 

[ICL]

I got 10 degrees, which is in the ideal range of 8-12 I think,

but the real problem is I dont know if the image is in frankfurt plane, because I can't see the orbital or tragion, mfs couldn't capture my whole skull

ideal is below 15

as long as you don't have short face syndrome from the front, you should be fine

 

[rares54]

gonion to pogonion, which is 23 degrees. a cephalometrics reference beside
View attachment 5157619
gonion to (gn) which is 33 degrees
View attachment 5157626

holy high iq, but that cant be the occlusal plane no? its way too high

 

[rares54]

ideal is below 15

as long as you don't have short face syndrome from the front, you should be fine

my mfr is like 0.98-1
,

also does it matter if my bite was slightly open in the x ray?

 

[rares54]

@ICL

I never understood this picture, they say ideal occlusal plane is anywhere from 4 degrees to 12

how is point C anywhere close to that?

 

[ICL]

my mfr is like 0.98-1
,

also does it matter if my bite was slightly open in the x ray?

yes probably, usually they have your whole head put on something so you don't do that, idk what your doctor did
Mfr can be intact while having downward growth

holy high iq, but that cant be the occlusal plane no? its way too high

occlusal plane in cephalometrics, 23 is average, the non traditional gonial angle measurement would be like 33 instead but i'm not sure because it's cut off

if you want to remedy you could do CCW posterior+anterior surgery

but only if you have gummy smile

otherwise you'd get impacted lefort 1

or if you want your midface to stay the same, just get a chin wing. it does CCW for the mandible instead of the maxilla

 

[ICL]

@ICL View attachment 5157674

I never understood this picture, they say ideal occlusal plane is anywhere from 4 degrees to 12

how is point C anywhere close to that?

this would occlusal plane, I thought you meant mandibular plane

occlusal plane being flat would be indicator of good ccw, ima see if you got that

yep 10 degree

 

[rares54]

yes probably, usually they have your whole head put on something so you don't do that, idk what your doctor did
Mfr can be intact while having downward growth

occlusal plane in cephalometrics, 23 is average, the non traditional gonial angle measurement would be like 33 instead but i'm not sure because it's cut off

if you want to remedy you could do CCW posterior+anterior surgery

but only if you have gummy smile

otherwise you'd get impacted lefort 1

or if you want your midface to stay the same, just get a chin wing. it does CCW for the mandible instead of the maxilla

Yea idk the doctor said put that shit in your mouth and my chin on a small table to be secured

Here’s my bite/smile, i used to want ccw bimax but then i came to the conclusion it wont really help my front since my midface isnt that long

Would u say im downgrown from the xray? From what I know its more of a mandible problem, maxilla is fine but mandible is downswung like Josh mcgregor and christian bale, big chins smaller gonions

 

[rares54]

this would occlusal plane, I thought you meant mandibular plane

occlusal plane being flat would be indicator of good ccw, ima see if you got that
View attachment 5157699

yep 10 degree

Ohh yea i meant occlusal plane, scared me for a minute when u said 33 degrees

I know my mandibular plane is shit, i knew it before the xray, but what could be the cause of this?

 

[ICL]

Ohh yea i meant occlusal plane, scared me for a minute when u said 33 degrees

I know my mandibular plane is shit, i knew it before the xray, but what could be the cause of this?

Ramus, chin, bad forward growth, etc.

I think when I saw you you had bad forward growth, so your ramus would be the same size but better angle

here's an example, imagine this is a mandible

here you can see, if this was a real person, they would be extremely recessed

This person has good forward growth though, hence his angle is 10 degree less

Chin can also help with this but only an upturned chin

 

[ICL]

Yea idk the doctor said put that shit in your mouth and my chin on a small table to be secured
View attachment 5157700
Here’s my bite/smile, i used to want ccw bimax but then i came to the conclusion it wont really help my front since my midface isnt that long

Would u say im downgrown from the xray? From what I know its more of a mandible problem, maxilla is fine but mandible is downswung like Josh mcgregor and christian bale, big chins smaller gonions

yea you can get ccw, you almost have gummmy smile and most of your teeth is upper teeth. Bimax would help a lot as well

get a consult with a surgeon to be 100% sure

 

[rares54]

Ramus, chin, bad forward growth, etc.

I think when I saw you you had bad forward growth, so your ramus would be the same size but better angle

here's an example, imagine this is a mandible
View attachment 5157733
here you can see, if this was a real person, they would be extremely recessed
View attachment 5157735
This person has good forward growth though, hence his angle is 10 degree less

Chin can also help with this but only an upturned chin

Ah so basically the more forwardly grown the mandible is, the gonial angle lessens or maybe gives the illusion of being better because of the whole mandible being forward

Really? I thought I had above average forward growth tho, some have said I have an anteface in the past but sometimes I still dream of getting bimax lol

 

[rares54]

yea you can get ccw, you almost have gummmy smile and most of your teeth is upper teeth. Bimax would help a lot as well

get a consult with a surgeon to be 100% sure

The problem is wont ccw make my lower third shorter from what I've heard?

That the chin height can get lower, that could be an issue for me since my skull is already wide

 

[ICL]

The problem is wont ccw make my lower third shorter from what I've heard?

That the chin height can get lower, that could be an issue for me since my skull is already wide
View attachment 5157775View attachment 5157774

yes this is true cameron alborazian

Ah so basically the more forwardly grown the mandible is, the gonial angle lessens or maybe gives the illusion of being better because of the whole mandible being forward

Really? I thought I had above average forward growth tho, some have said I have an anteface in the past but sometimes I still dream of getting bimax lol

nah not really an illusion, more like literally because thats how angles work

you had good forward growth but mandible was slightly recessed from what I remember, but 24 degree MPA is normal, not bad

 

[rares54]

yes this is true cameron alborazian

nah not really an illusion, more like literally because thats how angles work

you had good forward growth but mandible was slightly recessed from what I remember, but 24 degree MPA is normal, not bad

Thanks for the high iq conversation bruh I miss these type of threads

this the type of shit u only find in 2022 threads

 

[rares54]

@ICL bro I have to ask you, what feature based on that edit should I focus on first? I genuinely don't understand whats actually holding me back, all my ratios and proportions are ideal (only esr is a little low), I guess it comes down to my features?

That I dont have striking features

 

[ICL]

@ICL bro I have to ask you, what feature based on that edit should I focus on first? I genuinely don't understand whats actually holding me back, all my ratios and proportions are ideal (only esr is a little low), I guess it comes down to my features?

That I dont have striking features

nose length

 

[rares54]

nose length

my nose length is 53mm tho, like perfect height

there was another guy who said my philtrum/nose was a failo, idk how tbh

 

[ICL]

my nose length is 53mm tho, like perfect height

there was another guy who said my philtrum/nose was a failo, idk how tbh

nose affects your IAA angle bro

 

[rares54]

nose affects your IAA angle bro
View attachment 5157968

yeah ik

jaw is the same

maybe a deviation of max 5 degrees

 

[ICL]

yeah ik
View attachment 5157991

jaw is the same

maybe a deviation of max 5 degrees

then it's midface

you can get a light upper lip lift so your midface is compact (go from 0.98 to like 1.03)
and change CTP, i measured this to be 2.3, ideal is like 2.5-3

 

[rares54]

then it's midface

you can get a light upper lip lift so your midface is compact (go from 0.98 to like 1.03)
and change CTP, i measured this to be 2.3, ideal is like 2.5-3
View attachment 5158033

Ohh the lip lift sounds good, just hope it wont make me look gay af as my upper lip is already kinda thick

Also it would help shorten my philtrum just a little bit

in my opinion i think 2.3-2.4x philtrum is ideal, not too masc bc I already have high dimo like low esr, high fwhr etc

 

[rares54]

if you want to remedy you could do CCW posterior+anterior surgery

Why would I do both posterior+anterior? I thought posterior downgraft or anterior impaction are the 2 that give CCWr

Thing is I don't think its worth to do an impaction, i dont have severe gum show

Whats the difference between posterior downgraft and posterior+anterior?

 

[ICL]

Why would I do both posterior+anterior? I thought posterior downgraft or anterior impaction are the 2 that give CCWr

Thing is I don't think its worth to do an impaction, i dont have severe gum show

Whats the difference between posterior downgraft and posterior+anterior?

Nah I just realized, ccwr doesn't affect philtrum only chin and makes it shorter.

You just need a lip lift and paranasal filler/implants

 

[rares54]

Nah I just realized, ccwr doesn't affect philtrum only chin and makes it shorter.

You just need a lip lift and paranasal filler/implants

Im still wageslaving for bimax for the benefits of a flatter occlusal plane + MPA tho

I think posterior downgrafting would be nice to get CCWr

Midface would stay the same though, only way to shorten it would be through impaction

 

[rares54]

Nah I just realized, ccwr doesn't affect philtrum only chin and makes it shorter.

You just need a lip lift and paranasal filler/implants

Im still thinking ab how either anterior impaction vs posterior downgraft will affect my overall face height

because i was thinking i could do zygo reduction by like 5mm, to get more averageness and end up at like 144mm bizygo, that way i get better eye spacing and if i get a shorter chin with bimax it will be fine bc my TFWHR will be unchanged

whereas if i only get zygo shaving, my face would appear long bc its already wide and tall

maybe this is all just mental masturbation

 

[ICL]

Im still wageslaving for bimax for the benefits of a flatter occlusal plane + MPA tho I think posterior downgrafting would be nice to get CCWr Midface would stay the same though, only way to shorten it would be through impaction

CCWR doesn't decrease philtrum length afaik, it's very subtle.

Impaction is correct tho, if you get a bimax w/ impaction (maybe high cut LF1 as well) you'd get a more compact midface

Downgraft is only necessary if your MPA is low, in your case it's gonna increase it

Im still thinking ab how either anterior impaction vs posterior downgraft will affect my overall face height

Anterior impaction would be superior
I've seen posterior downgraft results and they are simply not good, additionally, you won't need to mess around with occlusal plane angle, it's already ideal

because i was thinking i could do zygo reduction by like 5mm, to get more averageness and end up at like 144mm bizygo, that way i get better eye spacing and if i get a shorter chin with bimax it will be fine bc my TFWHR will be unchanged

Nah not needed

You'll just get a smaller skull after this procedure, not desirable

whereas if i only get zygo shaving, my face would appear long bc its already wide and tall

It may affect your ESR but it's not necessary.

maybe this is all just mental masturbation

Probably

I think you'd be good with a lf1 w/ impaction (possibly high cut) then bsso of course and later just utilize filler in lips, gonion, midface (paranasal) etc

 

[rares54]

Downgraft is only necessary if your MPA is low, in your case it's gonna increase it

Holon I thought posterior downgraft would decrease my MPA since mpa follows occlusal, if i get CCWr and make my occlusal to lets say 2 degrees positive (its 10 now) wont that also decrease my MPA by 8 degrees?
10-8= 2

Anterior impaction would be superior

some mfs say it decreases their nose bone/ breathing issues idk some bullshit like that

you won't need to mess around with occlusal plane angle, it's already ideal

this too, only reason i would wanna mess w it would be to not look as ''downgrown'' and increase my MPA. u sure downgraft would increase my mpa and not decrease it?

You'll just get a smaller skull after this procedure, not desirable

true too,
this is what i'd look like with a 143mm bizygo, shorter chin to keep TFWHR in check, but also I had to lower my hairline somehow because it still looked long
+ lip lift bc chin to philtrum would be off if i just reduced chin
fuck man only if my IPD was like 67-68mm (65mm rn) i wouldve skipped all this hassle bc my face is already tall and wide

 

[ICL]

true too,
this is what i'd look like with a 143mm bizygo, shorter chin to keep TFWHR in check, but also I had to lower my hairline somehow because it still looked long
+ lip lift bc chin to philtrum would be off if i just reduced chin
fuck man only if my IPD was like 67-68mm (65mm rn) i wouldve skipped all this hassle bc my face is already tall and wide

hmm pretty good morph

go ahead with the CCW surgery and lip lift, they'd be high ROI but I'm not sure if its practical doing them alone

this too, only reason i would wanna mess w it would be to not look as ''downgrown'' and increase my MPA. u sure downgraft would increase my mpa and not decrease it?

Posterior, no. I thought you meant overall so no

some mfs say it decreases their nose bone/ breathing issues idk some bullshit like that

I wouldnt depend on it

Holon I thought posterior downgraft would decrease my MPA since mpa follows occlusal, if i get CCWr and make my occlusal to lets say 2 degrees positive (its 10 now) wont that also decrease my MPA by 8 degrees?

It wouldn't be a noticable effect, just mainly about the antegonial notch and chin height


No need to shave bizygomatic region tho, if anything they should be more prominent

 

[rares54]

It wouldn't be a noticable effect, just mainly about the antegonial notch and chin height

So basically lower MPA = less chin height bc chin comes forward and UP instead of down and taller

would you recommend turkey? i already have some surgeons in mind but prices been going up like crazy lately

No need to shave bizygomatic region tho, if anything they should be more prominent

bro im borderline too wide already, i only start to look good when very lean bc of my wide bizygo

untouched ESR+ jaw morph etc
so 65mm ipd + 148mm bizygo

 

[ICL]

forward and UP instead of down and taller

would you recommend turkey? i already have some surgeons in mind but prices been going up like crazy lately

Yes to both

borderline too wide already, i only start to look good when very lean bc of my wide bizygo

untouched ESR+ jaw morph etc
so 65mm ipd + 148mm bizygo

Trust me beo you don't want to touch this measurement, your ICD and OCD are fine so why bother brah.

 

[rares54]

Trust me beo you don't want to touch this measurement, your ICD and OCD are fine so why bother brah.

the autism is taking me by the neck bruh
ipsilateral is ideal, ocd, icd good, ipd is 65mm dead average
just wide zygos

i just hate being outside the ideal range in ratios, autistic af i know even if there are so many moggers with low esr like delon, noszka etc