Pagnoni is better than ramieri

[lurking truecel]

When it comes to looks pagnoni is the better surgeon. He will risk more, and do movements that has higher risks but greater reward. Ramieri is litteraly doing the same thing for everybody. He is good but not great. He isnt more safe then pag either. Pag just do more risky movements. Ram only does very small movements even if bigger is needed. And he will not adapt too much to your specific case. If you have any iq you will see how all his results are basically the same thing.

All this hate on pag for being a botcher because some americans mew copers went too him for extreme movements for their sleep apnea and got botched is not proof that he is a botcher. He does what the patient wants in the end, and bigger movements will allways have a greater risk but is also high reward.(Also the reason why the prices went up because of the american infestation)

At the end of the day pag is more creative then ram, and has greater potential. I could go in to detail exactly what i mean. But if you have decent knowledge you will understand. Also both of them is ofc forum overrated

 

[LEFORT17]

When it comes to looks pagnoni is the better surgeon. He will risk more, and do movements that has higher risks but greater reward. Ramieri is litteraly doing the same thing for everybody. He is good but not great. He isnt more safe then pag either. Pag just do more risky movements. Ram only does very small movements even if bigger is needed. And he will not adapt too much to your specific case. If you have any iq you will see how all his results are basically the same thing.

All this hate on pag for being a botcher because some americans mew copers went too him for extreme movements for their sleep apnea and got botched is not proof that he is a botcher. He does what the patient wants in the end, and bigger movements will allways have a greater risk but is also high reward.(Also the reason why the prices went up because of the american infestation)

At the end of the day pag is more creative then ram, and has greater potential. I could go in to detail exactly what i mean. But if you have decent knowledge you will understand. Also both of them is ofc forum overrated

both are not worth the money lol

 

[yussimania]

yeah but the trend seems to be he didn't use bone grafts and does stupid BSSO cuts thus causing non unions

 

[yussimania]

both are not worth the money lol

what surgeon are you choosing? A German one I assume since you are German?

 

[LEFORT17]

what surgeon are you choosing? A German one I assume since you are German?

yup experienced german one

 

[yussimania]

yup experienced german one

Dr Z? or is he a niche gatekept one

mirin tho what do you aim to achieve with the surgery? I think you mentioned CCW?

 

[LEFORT17]

Dr Z? or is he a niche gatekept one

im not from germany. surgeons just german. i have read his name only ONCE oat on this forum. he himself doesnt promote on socials or whatever

 

[Ascension75]

Dr Z? or is he a niche gatekept one

mirin tho what do you aim to achieve with the surgery? I think you mentioned CCW?

Zarrinbal is hardcore overrated. He was popular on PSL 10 years ago because of his chin wing.

He is nowhere close to the top guys like raffaini or gunson.

 

[yussimania]

Zarrinbal is hardcore overrated. He was popular on PSL 10 years ago because of his chin wing.

He is nowhere close to the top guys like raffaini or gunson.

i just heard experience and thought Z lol - certain guys on here preach how you can find niche surgeons but end up going with Ramieri (me) lol

 

[SurgeonsAreScammers]

Guy on Reddit said he got 6mm bsso, 4mm Lefort, and 2mm ramus widening.

My theory is that the ramus widening is a shitty procedure but still these movements are not extreme by any means

 

[LEFORT17]

Guy on Reddit said he got 6mm bsso, 4mm Lefort, and 2mm ramus widening.

My theory is that the ramus widening is a shitty procedure but still these movements are not extreme by any means

conservative ramus widening mogs implants

 

[yussimania]

conservative ramus widening mogs implants

if you're in need of bigonial width then yeah, but don't be fooled into thinking it's a flared gonion hack

 

[zemult]

conservative ramus widening mogs implants

Is there any evidence that it makes a significant difference?

 

[LEFORT17]

Is there any evidence that it makes a significant difference?

significant difference? nah

 

[zemult]

significant difference? nah

Over

 

[LEFORT17]

Over

although i saw some pagnoni before/afters with ramus widening which looked pretty impressive. some even looked like they had gonial implants. at the end of the day you dont know how much it benefits oneself

 

[lurking truecel]

Guy on Reddit said he got 6mm bsso, 4mm Lefort, and 2mm ramus widening.

My theory is that the ramus widening is a shitty procedure but still these movements are not extreme by any means

He got problems?

 

[nishka]

if you're in need of bigonial width then yeah, but don't be fooled into thinking it's a flared gonion hack

is ramus widening the one where they cut the bone or just torque it?

 

[DrDrKater]

i just heard experience and thought Z lol - certain guys on here preach how you can find niche surgeons but end up going with Ramieri (me) lol

Whatdoyou think of Dr Kater?

 

[LEFORT17]

Whatdoyou think of Dr Kater?

keiner kennt den hier

 

[DrDrKater]

keiner kennt den hier

Ja ich weiß aber hoffe auf dopamin dadurch, dass jemand sagt ja der ist krass

 

[LEFORT17]

Ja ich weiß aber hoffe auf dopamin dadurch, dass jemand sagt ja der ist krass

schau einfach dass du nicht underadvanced wirst

 

[DrDrKater]

schau einfach dass du nicht underadvanced wirst

Hab Angst, dass er einfach nicht mutig genug ist, ich Plans nächste Woche mit ihm, ne Idee was ich sagen kann? Ich bin halt erst 17, ich will ihn nicht unbedingt nach enormen movements fragen bzw. nach zygoimplants, nicht dass er dann abbricht

 

[LEFORT17]

Hab Angst, dass er einfach nicht mutig genug ist, ich Plans nächste Woche mit ihm, ne Idee was ich sagen kann? Ich bin halt erst 17, ich will ihn nicht unbedingt nach enormen movements fragen bzw. nach zygoimplants, nicht dass er dann abbricht

wenn du für eine virtuelle plannung bezahlt hast wirst du sicher eine simulation sehen wie es aussehen könnte. und was implants angeht frag ihn NICHT wegen ,,Zygo'' implants weil das zahnimplantate sind. Malarimplantate sind das was du fragen kannst, allerdings ist das mit 17 nicht wirklich schlau

 

[DrDrKater]

wenn du für eine virtuelle plannung bezahlt hast wirst du sicher eine simulation sehen wie es aussehen könnte. und was implants angeht frag ihn NICHT wegen ,,Zygo'' implants weil das zahnimplantate sind. Malarimplantate sind das was du fragen kannst, allerdings ist das mit 17 nicht wirklich schlau

Ist eh schon Crazy, dass er genio und bimax ohne funktionellen Vorsatz mit 17 macht, hab oft gelesen dass er ein guter Chirurg ist, aber nicht mutig ist was Ästhetik angeht, meinst man sieht das so genau bei der 3d

 

[OnlyWs]

idk about surgical skill and all that but pags mogs ram to death

 

[LEFORT17]

Ist eh schon Crazy, dass er genio und bimax ohne funktionellen Vorsatz mit 17 macht, hab oft gelesen dass er ein guter Chirurg ist, aber nicht mutig ist was Ästhetik angeht, meinst man sieht das so genau bei der 3d

hab ich um ehrlich gesagt auch noch nicht gesehen. 18 eigentlich das mindestalter, bei jungs sogar später. wenn du mit einer zahnspange dekompensiert hast und noch dein kinn verlängerst sollte das schon klappen

 

[K.German Psycho]

hab ich um ehrlich gesagt auch noch nicht gesehen. 18 eigentlich das mindestalter, bei jungs sogar später. wenn du mit einer zahnspange dekompensiert hast und noch dein kinn verlängerst sollte das schon klappen

Über welchen Surgeon sprichst du der hier nur einmal genannt wurde?

 

[Oliebol]

When it comes to looks pagnoni is the better surgeon. He will risk more, and do movements that has higher risks but greater reward. Ramieri is litteraly doing the same thing for everybody. He is good but not great. He isnt more safe then pag either. Pag just do more risky movements. Ram only does very small movements even if bigger is needed. And he will not adapt too much to your specific case. If you have any iq you will see how all his results are basically the same thing.

All this hate on pag for being a botcher because some americans mew copers went too him for extreme movements for their sleep apnea and got botched is not proof that he is a botcher. He does what the patient wants in the end, and bigger movements will allways have a greater risk but is also high reward.(Also the reason why the prices went up because of the american infestation)

At the end of the day pag is more creative then ram, and has greater potential. I could go in to detail exactly what i mean. But if you have decent knowledge you will understand. Also both of them is ofc forum overrated

Agree with this. Pag also does implants which also comes with a higher "botch rate". People care so much about "low botch rate" and will go to surgeons that dont even advance much. Mind you, most of the "botch surgeons" only had a view botches out of the like 300 surgeries they do a year.

 

[tweaqo]

Nah pags told me I am a surgery first candidate (actually no braces at all) for double jaw surgery LOL.

He just tryna steal my money

 

[lurking truecel]

Nah pags told me I am a surgery first candidate (actually no braces at all) for double jaw surgery LOL.

He just tryna steal my money

Maybe he knows something ram doesnt

 

[SurgeonsAreScammers]

Maybe he knows something ram doesnt

Ram’s wife is an ortho, he’s hella whipped and probably makes money referring people to her.

Pagnoni is a weird case. He’s had some happy patients but it seems in the past year he’s been botching hard. Yes, that very minimal movement surgery (at least so claimed) had a bunch of issues and was effectively a botch

 

[lurking truecel]

Ram’s wife is an ortho, he’s hella whipped and probably makes money referring people to her.

Pagnoni is a weird case. He’s had some happy patients but it seems in the past year he’s been botching hard. Yes, that very minimal movement surgery (at least so claimed) had a bunch of issues and was effectively a botch

Hmm depends on the downgraft etc, rotation. But yea maybe widening fucked up. Hard to say

 

[moltisantichincel]

im not from germany. surgeons just german. i have read his name only ONCE oat on this forum. he himself doesnt promote on socials or whatever

Should’ve chosen sailer or safi roflsauce

 

[xantrooper]

When it comes to looks pagnoni is the better surgeon. He will risk more, and do movements that has higher risks but greater reward. Ramieri is litteraly doing the same thing for everybody. He is good but not great. He isnt more safe then pag either. Pag just do more risky movements. Ram only does very small movements even if bigger is needed. And he will not adapt too much to your specific case. If you have any iq you will see how all his results are basically the same thing.

All this hate on pag for being a botcher because some americans mew copers went too him for extreme movements for their sleep apnea and got botched is not proof that he is a botcher. He does what the patient wants in the end, and bigger movements will allways have a greater risk but is also high reward.(Also the reason why the prices went up because of the american infestation)

At the end of the day pag is more creative then ram, and has greater potential. I could go in to detail exactly what i mean. But if you have decent knowledge you will understand. Also both of them is ofc forum overrated

i had a consult with pagnoni recently, he seemed impressive to me tbh, do you think it would be utterly stupid to use him rn?

 

[lurking truecel]

i had a consult with pagnoni recently, he seemed impressive to me tbh, do you think it would be utterly stupid to use him rn?

I personally dont, but who the hell am i

 

[sadcel]

When it comes to looks pagnoni is the better surgeon. He will risk more, and do movements that has higher risks but greater reward. Ramieri is litteraly doing the same thing for everybody. He is good but not great. He isnt more safe then pag either. Pag just do more risky movements. Ram only does very small movements even if bigger is needed. And he will not adapt too much to your specific case. If you have any iq you will see how all his results are basically the same thing.

All this hate on pag for being a botcher because some americans mew copers went too him for extreme movements for their sleep apnea and got botched is not proof that he is a botcher. He does what the patient wants in the end, and bigger movements will allways have a greater risk but is also high reward.(Also the reason why the prices went up because of the american infestation)

At the end of the day pag is more creative then ram, and has greater potential. I could go in to detail exactly what i mean. But if you have decent knowledge you will understand. Also both of them is ofc forum overrated

What do you consider risky mouvements ? Im genuinely curious

 

[tweaqo]

What do you consider risky mouvements ? Im genuinely curious

when the movement is or has a risk of being non union

 

[lurking truecel]

What do you consider risky mouvements ? Im genuinely curious

Big down graft, huge bsso with widening, huge leforte. Risky is when its a lot bigger then the regular movements, also one need to a be a lot nore careful after surgery

 

[Nahorscend]

Big down graft, huge bsso with widening, huge leforte. Risky is when its a lot bigger then the regular movements, also one need to a be a lot nore careful after surgery

How many mm would you consider to be a huge bsso, how many is a huge lf1, and how many is big widening?

 

[tweaqo]

How many mm would you consider to be a huge bsso, how many is a huge lf1, and how many is big widening?

Over 13mm BSSO

Over 6-7mm LF1

Over 4mm widening

 

[lurking truecel]

How many mm would you consider to be a huge bsso, how many is a huge lf1, and how many is big widening?

I mean its hard to say as so many factors plays in. Your doctor could just say if its bigger then normal basically, widening if you go the max 5 mm each side but it also depends. Its kinda worthless even trying to say

 

[Nahorscend]

I mean its hard to say as so many factors plays in. Your doctor could just say if its bigger then normal basically, widening if you go the max 5 mm each side but it also depends. Its kinda worthless even trying to say

Maybe a silver lining of being skullcel is your whole face is smaller than average so the absolute mm movement you need is less to get a relative correction (which is what matters for aesthetics)

 

[lurking truecel]

Maybe a silver lining of being skullcel is your whole face is smaller than average so the absolute mm movement you need is less to get a relative correction (which is what matters for aesthetics)

Lol who knows

 

[esoterik]

this thread is confusing and a mess, pag is like a investor who takes alot of risks on weird stocks, ram is like s&p500, you cant call one better then the other, pag has better highlights, but ram has better botch rates

 

[SurgeonsAreScammers]

this thread is confusing and a mess, pag is like a investor who takes alot of risks on weird stocks, ram is like s&p500, you cant call one better then the other, pag has better highlights, but ram has better botch rates

We need some sources on a claim like this. From what I can tell, we don’t have any evidence that the Pagnoni botches are caused by him just taking more risks than ramieri

As far as I can see, there were some conservative Pagnoni botches and some untempered Ramieri successes. We’ve being hearing a lot of negatives about Pagnoni recently, so it needs to be diagnosed if the issue is actually his “less conservative” approach.

 

[lurking truecel]

this thread is confusing and a mess, pag is like a investor who takes alot of risks on weird stocks, ram is like s&p500, you cant call one better then the other, pag has better highlights, but ram has better botch rates

That is what i meant basically. But its also that pag is open to di exactly what the patient wants. Atleast when he realises the patient will go to another surgeon if he dont

 

[Oliebol]

That is what i meant basically. But its also that pag is open to di exactly what the patient wants. Atleast when he realises the patient will go to another surgeon if he dont

yeah you gotta have a nice balance in this. A surgeon should not let his patient just choose what he wants, but a surgeon also needs to be open minded.

 

[bossman]

Over 13mm BSSO

Over 6-7mm LF1

Over 4mm widening

Coceancig planned 20mm of widening for me jfl

 

[Nahorscend]

Coceancig planned 20mm of widening for me jfl

From ramus widening? How is that possible lol no way you can torque the condyles even 10 mm per side