Question to Muslimcels

[NewOneXY]

I am Türk and Prophet of Islam was a pedophile

 

[Greycel Slayer]

Bismillah,

Are you even aware of the words you are spouting? I'm no longer surprised at the post you have made, given that you believe ilm ul kalaam is permissible. Allah bares witness at your slander, typical of the Mutakallimun.

Before I continue, you have avoided countless questions of mine. You've already claimed that philosophy is permissible, nor have you refuted a single source I provided - rather you disparaged them.

Let me remind you what your people say:







Ashaa'irah are the later iterations of the original kalaam groups like Jahmiyyah and Mu'tazilah, that is why Ibn Taymiyyah said:

The mu'tazilah, when going against philosophers, may seem Muslim, but when going against ahl as-Sunnah seem like philosophers. When ash'aris go against Mu'tazilah, they seem like ahl as-Sunnah, but when they go against ahl as-Sunnah, they seem like Mu'tazilah.


The short explanation based on Ahlus-Sunnah sources is as follows:

Spoiler: Philosophy

Imaam ash-Shaafi’ee (d. 204H) said,

“That a person is put to trial with everything that Allaah has forbidden, besides Shirk, is better than that he looks at Kalaam (theological rhetoric).” He also said, “If people knew what (misleading and destructive) desires are contained within theological rhetoric they would certainly flee from it as they would from a lion,”

Imaam ash-Shaafi’ee (d. 204H) said,

“My ruling regarding the people of theological rhetoric is that they should be beaten with palm leaves and shoes and be paraded amongst the kinsfolk and the tribes with it being announced, ‘This is the reward of the one who abandons the Book and the Sunnah and turns to theological rhetoric (kalaam).”

Abu Yoosuf, the companion of Aboo Haneefah said,

“Whoever sought knowledge by kalaam (theological rhetoric) will turn a heretical apostate,” and Ahmad ibn Hanbal (d. 241H) said, “The person of theological rhetoric will never prosper. And never do you see anyone looking into theological rhetoric except that in his heart is a desire for creating mischief.”

Sufyan Al Thawri (97-161H) was asked about Kalam, to which he responded:

“Abandon the falsehood, follow the Sunnah and leave falsehood.”

Imam Malik Ibn Anas (93-179H) on Ilm Al Kalam:

Malik was asked about Amr Ibn Ubayd and his companions. He replied:

“May Allah curse Amr! He introduced this bidah of Kalam. If Kalam was (beneficial) knowledge, the sahabah and taabi'een would have spoken of it just as they spoke of the rulings of Islam. But it is falsehood and points to falsehood.”

Malik said:

“Whoever seeks religion through Kalam will become a heretic.”

Ibn Abi Hatim (240-327H) said:

“I asked my father and Abu Zur’ah about the positions of the Ahlus-Sunnah regarding the fundamentals of the Religion, and what they found the scholars upon in all of the cities, and what they held as their creed in that regard, so they both said: ‘We found the scholars in all of the cities: in the Hijaaz, in `Iraaq, in Egypt, in Shaam, in Yemen, so it was from their position that:’ Forbidding sitting with the people of Kalam, and looking into the books of the people of Kalam and they both used to say: ‘a person of theological rhetoric will never prosper.’”

You've made so many absurd elementary errors. I do not have the time to formulate a response to this right now as I'm quite busy. I might at a later date. However, I will say one thing. You are an absolute clown for taking click bait 20 second clips and forcing them upon me as if they are a source of authority. I'm not surpised; In fact, It's to be expected as the entire psuedo salafi movement revolves around taking scholarly work out of context and posting out of context clips on tiktok and attributing them to the beliefs of Ashariya. You may rightfully question: "Where is the proof that psuedo salafis do this?" You are the proof. Others aren't very different from you

Low iq and dirty play by using a 30 second clip against me and having the audacity to say "this is what YOUR people say". Seriously? Such things have no place in an academic discussion.

As for the "you have not refuted me", there is simply nothing to refute. You are simply copy pasting random reddit posts and out of context youtube clips. I have no time to read what a random idiot is typing on reddit nor what a random youtuber is spamming on his channel to earn shekels.

I've already educated you on al ibana and adressed the false claim that Imam Ashari went through 3 stages. To which, you responded with more out of context youtube clips and random reddit posts. You then went on to rant about what Ibn Taymiyyah has said about the Asharis, which I will also address at a later time. You then dwelved into philosophy by spamming quotes left and right without grasping the true essence and context of those statements; I shall address that at a later time as well.

Have engaged with people like you hundreds of times. Typical pseudo salafi behavior.

 

[Fiqh]

You've made so many absurd elementary errors. I do not have the time to formulate a response to this right now as I'm quite busy. I might at a later date. However, I will say one thing. You are an absolute clown for taking click bait 20 second clips and forcing them upon me as if they are a source of authority. I'm not surpised; In fact, It's to be expected as the entire psuedo salafi movement revolves around taking scholarly work out of context and posting out of context clips on tiktok and attributing them to the beliefs of Ashariya. You may rightfully question: "Where is the proof that psuedo salafis do this?" You are the proof. Others aren't very different from you

Low iq and dirty play by using a 30 second clip against me and having the audacity to say "this is what YOUR people say". Seriously? Such things have no place in an academic discussion.

As for the "you have not refuted me", there is simply nothing to refute. You are simply copy pasting random reddit posts and out of context youtube clips. I have no time to read what a random idiot is typing on reddit nor what a random youtuber is spamming on his channel to earn shekels.

I've already educated you on al ibana and adressed the false claim that Imam Ashari went through 3 stages. To which, you responded with more out of context youtube clips and random reddit posts. You then went on to rant about what Ibn Taymiyyah has said about the Asharis, which I will also address at a later time. You then dwelved into philosophy by spamming quotes left and right without grasping the true essence and context of those statements; I shall address that at a later time as well.

Woe to you, why do you erroneously justify the use of theological rhetoric and philosophy? How is it out of context when it is related to the conversation we are having? Are you perhaps incapable of reading/watching? Are you unaware that Philosophy has its roots in disbelief and it goes against the preservation of the mind? Why are you ascribing me to the pseudo-salafi movement, when I have never identified as such? Do you claim to be more knowledgable than a student of knowledge? You have yet to reply in regards to the article regarding the Mutakallimun.

Frankly, you left me with a lot of questions and zero answers.

Have engaged with people like you hundreds of times. Typical pseudo salafi behavior.

You have engaged with me but you haven't said much, rather you have thrown accusations with no Shar'i evidence.

Yet again, it becomes clearer why you have made this thread in the first place. Typical of those who engage in philosophy and theological rhetoric.

 

[Greycel Slayer]

Woe to you, why do you erroneously justify the use of theological rhetoric and philosophy? How is it out of context when it is related to the conversation we are having? Are you perhaps incapable of reading/watching? Are you unaware that Philosophy has its roots in disbelief and it goes against the preservation of the mind? Why are you ascribing me to the pseudo-salafi movement, when I have never identified as such? Do you claim to be more knowledgable than a student of knowledge? You have yet to reply in regards to the article regarding the Mutakallimun.

Frankly, you left me with a lot of questions and zero answers.


You have engaged with me but you haven't said much, rather you have thrown accusations with no Shar'i evidence.

Yet again, it becomes clearer why you have made this thread in the first place. Typical of those who engage in philosophy and theological rhetoric.

You are a tiktoker salafi jfl. Stop hiding. The student of knowledge in question learns from tiktok.com as was made obvious by your constant copy and pasting. That’s all you are capable of. Copying and pasting out of context quotes from 30 second clips.

 

[Fiqh]

You are a tiktoker salafi jfl. Stop hiding. The student of knowledge in question learns from tiktok.com as was made obvious by your constant copy and pasting. That’s all you are capable of. Copying and pasting out of context quotes from 30 second clips.

I have never approached tiktok nor do I use any other form of social media, you seem to be capable of insulting and throwing accusations however. All you seem to be able to do is throw the "salafi" label when your ideals are opposed.

You claimed the clip was "clickbait", how so? Care to expand? Regarding the "quotes" you speak of, they are directly related to the points we made. Why are you making me repeat myself?

You still haven't answered my questions. What are you? Are you amongst the Ashaa‘irah? Why is ilm ul kalaam permissible? You speak of Ahlus-Sunnah Wal-Jammah whilst contradicting the very foundations of it. Is this a common thing for you to label others that you disagree with as "Salafis"? Are you perhaps in your adolescence, given the tone you use?

As I stated, the more you speak, the more questions you leave behind.

The student of knowledge in question learns from tiktok.com as was made obvious by your constant copy and pasting. That’s all you are capable of. Copying and pasting out of context quotes from 30 second clips.

How so? Are you only capable of throwing baseless accusations? Why are you blatantly lying, I thought someone like you would be better than that.

 

[Fiqh]

To muslims: "PHILOSOPHY IS HARAM, ASHARI ARE MISGUIDED, YOU ARE ALL KUFFAR"
To Rebecca: "Well you see rebecca....WE LOVE OUR CHRISTIAN BROTHERS. spits philosophy that muslims excelled in during the golden age of islam"

hypocrites

This still perplexes me, how is this a justification? Are ancedotal claims of importance now?

Who stated that the Ashaa'irah were kuffar?

 

[Greycel Slayer]

What are you? Are you amongst the Ashaa‘irah? You speak of Ahlus-Sunnah Wal-Jammah whilst contradicting the very foundations of it. Is this a common thing for you to label others that you disagree with as "Salafis"? Are you perhaps in your adolescence, given the tone you use?

Ibn Hajr al-Haytami was asked for a fatwa identifying ahlul bidah, he answered that they were "those who contravene Muslim orthodoxy and consensus (Ahlul Sunna wal jamah): the followers of Sheikh Abul Hasan al-Ash'ari and Abu Mansur al-Maturidi, the two Imams of Ahl al-Sunna" (al-Fatawa al-hadithiyya, 280)

Why is ilm ul kalaam permissible?

You questioning me what I think of ilmul Kalam, I replied "there is nothing wrong with it". Yes, it is permissable but nowhere did I say that it should be given importance over quran nor did I ever mention that it's superior in any way. There is benefit and harm in it. According to the circumstances, it can even become wajib to use Kalaam in defense of Islam. However, the tiktokers not only reach the peak of hypocrisy by using it when arguing with athesits, but also blame those who study it, calling them all sorts of names. Imam Ghazali, Imam taj alsubki, Imam nawawi rh, and others agreed that Kalaam is useful in defending Islam but is harmful if used incorrectly.

However, when the atheists are on the rise and muslims are becoming murtad left and right, the salafis wanna argue against kalam theology jfl.

Also, if you have a problem with the Asharis, then talk to me yourself instead of sending me posts of the guy you fanboy over. I have no interest in talking to someone who is arguining with me for the sake of another idiot.

 

[Fiqh]

Ibn Hajr al-Haytami was asked for a fatwa identifying ahlul bidah, he answered that they were "those who contravene Muslim orthodoxy and consensus (Ahlul Sunna wal jamah): the followers of Sheikh Abul Hasan al-Ash'ari and Abu Mansur al-Maturidi, the two Imams of Ahl al-Sunna" (al-Fatawa al-hadithiyya, 280)


You questioning me what I think of ilmul Kalam, I replied "there is nothing wrong with it". Yes, it is permissable but nowhere did I say that it should be given importance over quran nor did I ever mention that it's superior in any way. There is benefit and harm in it. According to the circumstances, it can even become wajib to use Kalaam in defense of Islam. However, the tiktokers not only reach the peak of hypocrisy by using it when arguing with athesits, but also blame those who study it, calling them all sorts of names. Imam Ghazali, Imam taj alsubki, Imam nawawi rh, and others agreed that Kalaam is useful in defending Islam but is harmful if used incorrectly.

However, when the atheists are on the rise and muslims are becoming murtad left and right, the salafis wanna argue against kalam theology jfl.

Also, if you have a problem with the Asharis, then talk to me yourself instead of sending me posts of the guy you fanboy over. I have no interest in talking to someone who is arguining with me for the sake of another idiot.

Kalam was always forbidden, I'm confused on why you think it's permissible all of a sudden. Have you even read the references I sent you? Rather I will provide references with shar'i evidence than "talking to you myself", there is a reason why people provide references. Rather, I will not provide an input when they have said it better than I could.

His words put it perfectly yet you have not said anything adequate in regards to it! You have provided zero shar'i evidence for these claims, it seems this conversation is going nowhere given you continue to spout these words whilst ignoring the references provided.

The "salafis" you speak of are the Madaakhilah who I am not apart for, stop ascribing me to them. Also repent for how you have ascribed other Muslims to the disgusting Jews.

 

[Fiqh]

Does Allah owe me anything? If not, then why do I owe him something?

You cannot possibly ask such a question whilst "arguing" with others on what's permissible. Spewing "Salafi" this and that, what's next? Will you start calling others "Wahhabbis"?

You have memorised the Qur'an but I'm starting to doubt if you even understand it.

وَمَا خَلَقْتُ الْجِنَّ وَالْإِنسَ إِلَّا لِيَعْبُدُونِ
[ الذاريات: 56]

51:56 And I did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me.