Recommend good maxfacs in europe besides Zarrinbal (No eppley like witch doctors or butchers)

[quantumzygomatics]

Most likely BSSO+genio/chinwing

 

[Deusmaximus]

Dr Sailer

 

[needsolution]

Dr Sailer

Overpriced

 

[National Rodgerism]

Dr Sailer

Is that bitmax? looks more like a jaw implant.

 

[quantumzygomatics]

I don't trust the guy Sailer. First of all he's 70+ y/o, lots of bad press, and I don't Need a huge makeover I just want a slight flaw corrected (see avi)

oh well… and I'm not exactly in the mood of dishing out 100k for a surgery that's worth 5k. I get that it's probably going to be 10-20k cause aesthetic surgery is overpriced as hell, but charging 100k is just rude...

 

[SurgerySoon]

Those results by Sailer are exactly the dramatic degree of change I'm looking to achieve for myself. I agree that his age is a worrisome factor. I wonder if Zarrinbal can pull off results that are just as dramatic for someone who's literally looking for an entire facial overhaul?

 

[Gosick]

Dr Sailer

crazy result

Those results by Sailer are exactly the dramatic degree of change I'm looking to achieve for myself. I agree that his age is a worrisome factor. I wonder if Zarrinbal can pull off results that are just as dramatic for someone who's literally looking for an entire facial overhaul?

i heard he charges a 100k for double jaw

 

[SurgerySoon]

crazy result

i heard he charges a 100k for double jaw

It's not that bad when you consider that it's the only thing that has the potentially to literally change the nature of who I look like as a person and enable me to possibly experience a portion of my 30's as a chadlite (along with eye area overhaul surgery). Can Zarrinbal get results that are just as good? He's a lot cheaper. But again, I don't mind spending the money for life-changing results

 

[kota]

It's not that bad when you consider that it's the only thing that has the potentially to literally change the nature of who I look like as a person and enable me to possibly experience a portion of my 30's as a chadlite (along with eye area overhaul surgery). Can Zarrinbal get results that are just as good? He's a lot cheaper. But again, I don't mind spending the money for life-changing results

Don't these results just look like jaw implants as mentioned above? Really hard to tell when the pics are different angles / facial expressions and might be frauded. A good indicator in itself to not trust this guy. What was actually done?

 

[ThisLifeKillsMe]

What about dr brusco?

Does someone know something about him?

 

[quantumzygomatics]

What about dr brusco?

Does someone know something about him?

have heard rather good Things for the most part. For me personally I can't justify the swiss Prices though when you get the same Quality of Treatment elsewhere for half

 

[KEy21]

Don't these results just look like jaw implants as mentioned above? Really hard to tell when the pics are different angles / facial expressions and might be frauded. A good indicator in itself to not trust this guy. What was actually done?

Nah he mad a more upturned look to his mandible and more forward mouth area an aosteotomy was definitely done

 

[ThisLifeKillsMe]

have heard rather good Things for the most part. For me personally I can't justify the swiss Prices though when you get the same Quality of Treatment elsewhere for half

So they're all more expensive?

Anyone heard of Dr kater in germany?

 

[toptearmm]

Why not dr Z?

 

[quantumzygomatics]

Why not dr Z?

will probably go with him if i do it but i want a second oppinion, especially since im not convinced chin-wing is worth it for me and a simple genio would suffice. (Risk of assymetry/longer recovery/etc)

 

[Deusmaximus]

I really like this russian guys dedication, and cv in the jaw surgery field. Still im to scared of travelling to his country for chin wing. His prices are also unbeatable. But since im swiss, i will probably go to dr.brusco. Im to high inhib to get complicated jaw surgery in the usa.

 

[Gosick]

Dr Sailor is the best tbh, the only problem is that you poorcels cant afford him

 

[quantumzygomatics]

@Deusmaximus I mean it's Always complicated to gauge the Quality/trustworthyness of a surgeon without having dealt with him first Hand, but Brusco seems quite trustworthy from what i can tell.

People like eppley have either descended into Madness or are psychopaths i cant believe People here are actually considering surgeons like this.

if you actually get the surgery and arn't batshit insane or Dumb Looking .)not fake/plastic .)safety and minimal Risk of complication are paramount

 

[kota]

Nah he mad a more upturned look to his mandible and more forward mouth area an aosteotomy was definitely done

Nah look at how the shape of the gonial changed. Here is the same guy posted on Sailers own site. Says he got implants. Again frauded pics in this link with different head tilts to make the impression of a total upswing. Also had a rhino.

double chin - jaw line

Well-formed contours and double chin reduction thanks to jaw line enhancement. Over time the face and neck areas become more “blurred” due to sagging fat and skin tissue. Jaw line enhancement can surgically accentuate this area, toning up the skin again.

www.sailerclinic.com

 

[Deusmaximus]

@Deusmaximus I mean it's Always complicated to gauge the Quality/trustworthyness of a surgeon without having dealt with him first Hand, but Brusco seems quite trustworthy from what i can tell.

People like eppley have either descended into Madness or are psychopaths i cant believe People here are actually considering surgeons like this.

if you actually get the surgery and arn't batshit insane or Dumb Looking .)not fake/plastic .)safety and minimal Risk of complication are paramount

Eppley is still a very good surgeon. But i think before getting implants, i need to get my teeth and jaw situation in a non recessed position. It will otherwise look strange to have a chad square chin wraparound jaw implant placed on recessed bones

 

[KEy21]

Nah look at how the shape of the gonial changed. Here is the same guy posted on Sailers own site. Says he got implants. Again frauded pics in this link with different head tilts to make the impression of a total upswing. Also had a rhino.

double chin - jaw line

Well-formed contours and double chin reduction thanks to jaw line enhancement. Over time the face and neck areas become more “blurred” due to sagging fat and skin tissue. Jaw line enhancement can surgically accentuate this area, toning up the skin again.

www.sailerclinic.com

He probably got a custom jaw angle implant after doublejaw

 

[SurgerySoon]

Nah he mad a more upturned look to his mandible and more forward mouth area an aosteotomy was definitely done

@kota what he said -- the patient's face was literally brought forward, which can only be achieved through osteotomies. Those are the kinds of procedures I should have had done in the first place instead of wasting time with implants that aren't capable of achieving much of a noticeable change. Besides eye area surgery, I really think that well-executed osteotomies (along with skull-reshaping surgeries) have the potential to actually make me standout good-looking. Now I realize it's going to take hardcore invasive procedures like those to get the results I want, especially at my age.

I wonder if my implants can be left in place or if they'll have to be removed?

 

[Sal123]

dr defranq guys, hd helped me alot

 

[kota]

@kota what he said -- the patient's face was literally brought forward, which can only be achieved through osteotomies. Those are the kinds of procedures I should have had done in the first place instead of wasting time with implants that aren't capable of achieving much of a noticeable change. Besides eye area surgery, I really think that well-executed osteotomies (along with skull-reshaping surgeries) have the potential to actually make me standout good-looking. Now I realize it's going to take hardcore invasive procedures like those to get the results I want, especially at my age.

I wonder if my implants can be left in place or if they'll have to be removed?

I'm all for osteotomies and as you may remember I exchanged my implant for an osteotomy myself.

However if you look at my link above, Sailer confirmed this guy had jaw implants. Probably a genio and rhino as well by the looks of it.

All good changes, but it's obvious this doc is frauding every after photo by asking the patients to tilt their head up which in combination with the chin/jaw and nose changes makes their faces appear more forward.

Look at this before and after of the same patient from his website.

You can tell the difference in head tilt by the position of the ear in relation to the eye. Now if you adjust the after image to have the same head angle as the before, the only thing actually brought forward is the chin:

Also the head tilt automatically makes the distance between chin point and neck longer, which makes the face appear more forward, as well as stretches the submental area out which makes the jaw look more defined. The fraudingin combination with the jaw implant, genio and rhino makes his face appear more forward in the after photos, but I don't see any movement in the rest of his face.

That said this guys profile improved a lot from the changes he had. But don't let this doc fool you with his misleading marketing.

 

[ldar = cope]

Brusco DeFranq Marianetti/Ramieri Vinzent Kater

 

[wristcel]

 

[ascendingautist]

here is a video explaining his double jaw surgery

So yeah it isn't only a simple double jaw but also some implants. Btw, he does offer a full facial makeover for 100k not just a double jaw. The double jaw itself isn't that expensive but still more than some other surgeons but keep in mind that everything is more expensive in switzerland, you pay arround 15-20 chf for some fast foods and 1chf is roughly the same as 1 dollar just to give you an idea

 

[kota]

here is a video explaining his double jaw surgery

So yeah it isn't only a simple double jaw but also some implants. Btw, he does offer a full facial makeover for 100k not just a double jaw. The double jaw itself isn't that expensive but still more than some other surgeons but keep in mind that everything is more expensive in switzerland, you pay arround 15-20 chf for some fast foods and 1chf is roughly the same as 1 dollar just to give you an idea

"An additional side effect is increased attravtiveness"

Indeed.

Yeah I stand corrected, really didn't see much movement in the mouth area. Still don't like the fact that he is frauding every after photo making the actual results difficult to judge. This doc indeed has a reputation of going overboard with dramatic changes in his patients if that's what you're looking for @SurgerySoon but there are cheaper redpilled max facs out there.

 

[SurgerySoon]

"An additional side effect is increased attravtiveness"

Indeed.

Yeah I stand corrected, really didn't see much movement in the mouth area. Still don't like the fact that he is frauding every after photo making the actual results difficult to judge. This doc indeed has a reputation of going overboard with dramatic changes in his patients if that's what you're looking for @SurgerySoon but there are cheaper redpilled max facs out there.

I see what you mean in regards to the surgeon frauding his patient's "after" photos by manipulating their head positions, but I still think his results are pretty good overall. At the very least, this surgeon seems to "get" what I'm going for.

I really like how he apparently offers a flat-fee total facial redesign for $100k, since that's what I'm after. I wonder if my implants can be left in place? Or even if they do have to be removed for the osteotomies, I wonder if they can be drilled back in place at the end of the surgery?

The thing is, I like the overall design of the midface implants themselves; I think the issue is just that I don't have enough forward growth to get much of a noticeable benefit from them. Since I think the implants would look good on a post-osteotomy version of my face, I would hate to have to have them removed altogether.

Also, what's the deal with braces? Do you still need to get braces prior to surgery if your teeth are already in alignment?

Btw, I didn't know (or must have forgotten) that you'd had an osteotomy surgery. I remember you saying that you had eye work done by Taban and a lip lift, though.
Edit: Also, on the topic of other cheaper redpilled maxfac surgeons, who else is considered a go-to surgeon? Zarrinbal is one, right? Aren't his prices fairly reasonable (like $20k for double jaw surgery or something like that)?

 

[kota]

I see what you mean in regards to the surgeon frauding his patient's "after" photos by manipulating their head positions, but I still think his results are pretty good overall. At the very least, this surgeon seems to "get" what I'm going for.

I really like how he apparently offers a flat-fee total facial redesign for $100k, since that's what I'm after. I wonder if my implants can be left in place? Or even if they do have to be removed for the osteotomies, I wonder if they can be drilled back in place at the end of the surgery?

The thing is, I like the overall design of the midface implants themselves; I think the issue is just that I don't have enough forward growth to get much of a noticeable benefit from them. Since I think the implants would look good on a post-osteotomy version of my face, I would hate to have to have them removed altogether.

Also, what's the deal with braces? Do you still need to get braces prior to surgery if your teeth are already in alignment?

Btw, I didn't know (or must have forgotten) that you'd had an osteotomy surgery. I remember you saying that you had eye work done by Taban and a lip lift, though.
Edit: Also, on the topic of other cheaper redpilled maxfac surgeons, who else is considered a go-to surgeon? Zarrinbal is one, right? Aren't his prices fairly reasonable (like $20k for double jaw surgery or something like that)?

Sure, that guy had a lot of work done (bimax, genio, jaw implant, rhino) so obviously the overall changes are dramatic. That's not to say you couldn't get the same results elsewhere with the same procedures, and probably cheaper as well. Just saying. It's nice if you have a surgeon who can accommodate all of your wishes at once though.

If you decide to get your jaw implant put in, I find it hard to imagine you would later be able to have BSSO with the jaw implant kept in. It is most likely sitting on the bone where the sagittal split is made. Also it was custom made to your current face, but with the mandible lengthened and maybe rotated it's not going to fit you the same any more.

One option with bimax is to get a posterior downgraft to rotate the maxilla and lengthen the ramus, in which case you wouldn't need the jaw implant for this purpose anyway. If you want more jaw width with an osteotomy you need a side wing. I don't know if Sailer is keen on doing any of this. In the patient above he just stuck a jaw implant on top of the bimax for similar effects.

The midface implants might be able to stay but you better ask the doc.

When you say you don't have enough forward growth for your midface implants to make a difference, you should be aware that bimax may just make the upper midface look less pronounced / more recessed by comparison. The upper midface stays behind while the lower get advanced, so some people who do bimax get that monkey look afterwards. Your midface implants should serve you well to counteract this effect and be a great compliment to bimax, but don't expect your zygos to look more defined from this.

Different docs can have different views on the requirements for braces. Also it's obviously on a case by case basis. There are some people on here who've had / will have bimax without any braces at all and some docs will operate before putting braces on you if your occlusion is fine. But sometimes you need to push the lower teeth back before BSSO to be able to achieve more movement, since otherwise they may be in the way of the advancement.

Yes, I've had a chin implant later switched out for a chin wing and am considering bimax myself.

Zarrinbal is one, I'm not sure what he charges for bimax. These Swiss docs like Sailer are probably among the most expensive in Europe.

 

[quantumzygomatics]

Brusco DeFranq Marianetti/Ramieri Vinzent Kater

thanks man

 

[SurgerySoon]

Sure, that guy had a lot of work done (bimax, genio, jaw implant, rhino) so obviously the overall changes are dramatic. That's not to say you couldn't get the same results elsewhere with the same procedures, and probably cheaper as well. Just saying. It's nice if you have a surgeon who can accommodate all of your wishes at once though.

If you decide to get your jaw implant put in, I find it hard to imagine you would later be able to have BSSO with the jaw implant kept in. It is most likely sitting on the bone where the sagittal split is made. Also it was custom made to your current face, but with the mandible lengthened and maybe rotated it's not going to fit you the same any more.

One option with bimax is to get a posterior downgraft to rotate the maxilla and lengthen the ramus, in which case you wouldn't need the jaw implant for this purpose anyway. If you want more jaw width with an osteotomy you need a side wing. I don't know if Sailer is keen on doing any of this. In the patient above he just stuck a jaw implant on top of the bimax for similar effects.

The midface implants might be able to stay but you better ask the doc.

When you say you don't have enough forward growth for your midface implants to make a difference, you should be aware that bimax may just make the upper midface look less pronounced / more recessed by comparison. The upper midface stays behind while the lower get advanced, so some people who do bimax get that monkey look afterwards. Your midface implants should serve you well to counteract this effect and be a great compliment to bimax, but don't expect your zygos to look more defined from this.

Different docs can have different views on the requirements for braces. Also it's obviously on a case by case basis. There are some people on here who've had / will have bimax without any braces at all and some docs will operate before putting braces on you if your occlusion is fine. But sometimes you need to push the lower teeth back before BSSO to be able to achieve more movement, since otherwise they may be in the way of the advancement.

Yes, I've had a chin implant later switched out for a chin wing and am considering bimax myself.

Zarrinbal is one, I'm not sure what he charges for bimax. These Swiss docs like Sailer are probably among the most expensive in Europe.

Thanks for the info. There are definitely a lot of factors to take into consideration. I guess whether or not I actually go for bimax surgery will depend on whether or not I'd benefit significantly more in an aesthetic sense from that surgery as compared to getting the rest of my jaw implant put in along with a premaxillary implant and a lip lift. If those procedures could mimic at least 70% of what bimax would achieve, I'm not sure if the extra money and more difficult recovery would be worth it in the case of bimax.

The thing is, I think that I'd be pretty happy overall with my mandible after getting the rest of my jaw implant put in since it would simulate the CCW I'd get from the mandibular component of bimax surgery (I'm also pretty much happy with the projection I have with the chin implant), so at this point it's mostly about bringing the maxilla forward to create more of that "forward growth" look. It's too bad that the maxilla by itself can't simply be brought forward, but that would obviously create a huge overbite.

Edit: In regards to the midface implants looking less prominent after bimax surgery -- I didn't think about that. In a way, I guess it further justifies getting the implants revised, which is what I was planning on doing anyways.

BTW, here are two pictures I took back in September (slightly different head postures in each) to give you an idea of how much I would (or wouldn't) benefit from bimax surgery vs. the implant + lip lift alternatives:

 

[kota]

Thanks for the info. There are definitely a lot of factors to take into consideration. I guess whether or not I actually go for bimax surgery will depend on whether or not I'd benefit significantly more in an aesthetic sense from that surgery as compared to getting the rest of my jaw implant put in along with a premaxillary implant and a lip lift. If those procedures could mimic at least 70% of what bimax would achieve, I'm not sure if the extra money and more difficult recovery would be worth it in the case of bimax.

The thing is, I think that I'd be pretty happy overall with my mandible after getting the rest of my jaw implant put in since it would simulate the CCW I'd get from the mandibular component of bimax surgery (I'm also pretty much happy with the projection I have with the chin implant), so at this point it's mostly about bringing the maxilla forward to create more of that "forward growth" look. It's too bad that the maxilla by itself can't simply be brought forward, but that would obviously create a huge overbite.

Edit: In regards to the midface implants looking less prominent after bimax surgery -- I didn't think about that. In a way, I guess it further justifies getting the implants revised, which is what I was planning on doing anyways.

BTW, here are two pictures I took back in September (slightly different head postures in each) to give you an idea of how much I would (or wouldn't) benefit from bimax surgery vs. the implant + lip lift alternatives:

The jaw implant may give similar effect around the border of the lower jawline as jaw surgery, plus the added width if you need it. But I have yet to see a premaxillary implant have nearly the same effect as a lefort in augmenting the midface. It only deals with a very small area and doesn't move the teeth. Moving the jaws altogether is what is going to give a lot more changes in support to the soft tissues all around. As the submental soft tissues is attached to the jaw, bimax will also be able to stretch this area better than implants which I have experienced first hand comparing myself with a chin implant vs a chin wing. If you really want that "forward growth" look I don't think implants can compare to moving the whole structure. Whether you actually need it is another question..

If you're getting implant revised I would do any osteotomies first so you can customize the implants to your needs after you have your new base. Having them revised wouldn't really do anything but risk throwing your face out of balance in your current state anyway IMO.

You could have the lip lift either way so I don't see that as a part of the decision between bimax vs implants. In fact it is often better paired with bimax IF you get CCW rotation by anterior impaction, since that shortens the distance between nose and teeth so a lip lift could be needed to match the soft tissue to the bony changes in this area. Not sure if you would benefit from impaction though.

 

[Deleted member 685]

Dr Sailer

Great now they look homosexual and like real life morphs

 

[SurgerySoon]

The jaw implant may give similar effect around the border of the lower jawline as jaw surgery, plus the added width if you need it. But I have yet to see a premaxillary implant have nearly the same effect as a lefort in augmenting the midface. It only deals with a very small area and doesn't move the teeth. Moving the jaws altogether is what is going to give a lot more changes in support to the soft tissues all around. As the submental soft tissues is attached to the jaw, bimax will also be able to stretch this area better than implants which I have experienced first hand comparing myself with a chin implant vs a chin wing. If you really want that "forward growth" look I don't think implants can compare to moving the whole structure. Whether you actually need it is another question..

If you're getting implant revised I would do any osteotomies first so you can customize the implants to your needs after you have your new base. Having them revised wouldn't really do anything but risk throwing your face out of balance in your current state anyway IMO.

You could have the lip lift either way so I don't see that as a part of the decision between bimax vs implants. In fact it is often better paired with bimax IF you get CCW rotation by anterior impaction, since that shortens the distance between nose and teeth so a lip lift could be needed to match the soft tissue to the bony changes in this area. Not sure if you would benefit from impaction though.

Thanks again for the info. There are definitely a lot of factors to consider. I guess that the most important one is the question of whether or not I'd get enough aesthetic benefit from undergoing double jaw surgery. I also don't want to risk getting my midface implants removed (not sure if chin implant would have to be removed or not), undergoing double jaw surgery, and then Dr. Y retires before I have a chance to go back to him to have my midface implants revised.

To clarify the point I made when I said that I wondered if a lip lift + paranasal/premaxillary implants could be enough, I actually mentioned the lip lift as a possible alternative method of getting that upturned/forward-projected upper-lip "look" that LF1 tends to achieve (although I understand that it wouldn't obtain the same total aesthetic effect). So in other words, I guess I was just considering these other procedures as camouflage procedures, basically.

BTW, you're definitely right that paranasal/premaxillary implants aren't capable of 100% mimicking the aesthetic results of LF1, but there are a few before/after implant surgery examples out there that have come surprisingly close (IMO):

It seems like one of the main drawbacks to paranasal/premaxillary implants is that they won't change the position of the upper lip, as you pointed out, which is why I wondered if combining the implants with a lip lift could get me reasonably close to the aesthetic benefits I'd get from LF1. But yeah, I agree that double jaw surgery is definitely the way to go for the absolute most convincing results possible when it comes to getting a more forward grown-looking face. For me, it's just a question of determining whether my face is flat/recessed-enough to warrant undergoing such an expensive, invasive surgery, or if the combination of implants + lip lift could get me close enough (60-70% of the results of LF1, in other words).

 

[kota]

Thanks again for the info. There are definitely a lot of factors to consider. I guess that the most important one is the question of whether or not I'd get enough aesthetic benefit from undergoing double jaw surgery. I also don't want to risk getting my midface implants removed (not sure if chin implant would have to be removed or not), undergoing double jaw surgery, and then Dr. Y retires before I have a chance to go back to him to have my midface implants revised.

To clarify the point I made when I said that I wondered if a lip lift + paranasal/premaxillary implants could be enough, I actually mentioned the lip lift as a possible alternative method of getting that upturned/forward-projected upper-lip "look" that LF1 tends to achieve (although I understand that it wouldn't obtain the same total aesthetic effect). So in other words, I guess I was just considering these other procedures as camouflage procedures, basically.

BTW, you're definitely right that paranasal/premaxillary implants aren't capable of 100% mimicking the aesthetic results of LF1, but there are a few before/after implant surgery examples out there that have come surprisingly close (IMO):

View attachment 168443 View attachment 168445


View attachment 168446

View attachment 168447


It seems like one of the main drawbacks to paranasal/premaxillary implants is that they won't change the position of the upper lip, as you pointed out, which is why I wondered if combining the implants with a lip lift could get me reasonably close to the aesthetic benefits I'd get from LF1. But yeah, I agree that double jaw surgery is definitely the way to go for the absolute most convincing results possible when it comes to getting a more forward grown-looking face. For me, it's just a question of determining whether my face is flat/recessed-enough to warrant undergoing such an expensive, invasive surgery, or if the combination of implants + lip lift could get me close enough (60-70% of the results of LF1, in other words).

My best bet is that your midface implants could stay if you had bimax but if that's a dealbreaker you could just ask a surgeon. And if Dr Y retires you'd still have other options.

I have been thinking along the same lines but personally I find those paranasal implant results underwhelming. You could probably barely see a difference from any other angle than that 90 degree side profile, and even then it's not much. If you're going the implant route anyway it might be worth throwing one of those in but I wouldn't expect too much. Maybe @facemaxxed has something to say here.

Not to bring that whole discussion up again but don't let any of this get in the way of your eye surgery. It's the only thing you NEED.

 

[Deleted member 2527]

My best bet is that your midface implants could stay if you had bimax but if that's a dealbreaker you could just ask a surgeon. And if Dr Y retires you'd still have other options.

I have been thinking along the same lines but personally I find those paranasal implant results underwhelming. You could probably barely see a difference from any other angle than that 90 degree side profile, and even then it's not much. If you're going the implant route anyway it might be worth throwing one of those in but I wouldn't expect too much. Maybe @facemaxxed has something to say here.

Not to bring that whole discussion up again but don't let any of this get in the way of your eye surgery. It's the only thing you NEED.

Yeah paranasal implants have some effect but underwhelming for sure.

 

[SurgerySoon]

Yeah paranasal implants have some effect but underwhelming for sure.

What about the premaxillary implant? Could you post a new side profile photo next to an older pre-surgery photo?

My best bet is that your midface implants could stay if you had bimax but if that's a dealbreaker you could just ask a surgeon. And if Dr Y retires you'd still have other options.

I have been thinking along the same lines but personally I find those paranasal implant results underwhelming. You could probably barely see a difference from any other angle than that 90 degree side profile, and even then it's not much. If you're going the implant route anyway it might be worth throwing one of those in but I wouldn't expect too much. Maybe @facemaxxed has something to say here.

Not to bring that whole discussion up again but don't let any of this get in the way of your eye surgery. It's the only thing you NEED.

I agree that the paranasal implant results I posted are underwhelming as compared to the results of actual double jaw surgery patients. The only reason I'm considering the combination of paranasal/premaxillary implants is if my maxilla is so mildly recessed that even the LF1 procedure would only advance it by a few mm, and therefore only confer a mild aesthetic advantage over the implants. So in other words, it just depends on how recessed my maxilla is. I'm honestly not sure how recessed it is as compared to the ideal maxilla, because I'm not sure what an "ideal" maxilla actually looks like relative to the other dimensions of my skull.

Even if the midface implants can be left in place, though, I'd probably be obligated to have them revised if the LF1 component of the procedure would make the existing implants look even less noticeable than they appear now.

Also, I wonder if I should get double jaw surgery before opting for eye area surgery since I'm not sure if the effects of moving the midface forward could alter how my lower eyelids and/or lateral canthi look.

 

[Deleted member 2527]

What about the premaxillary implant? Could you post a new side profile photo next to an older pre-surgery photo?


I agree that the paranasal implant results I posted are underwhelming as compared to the results of actual double jaw surgery patients. The only reason I'm considering the combination of paranasal/premaxillary implants is if my maxilla is so mildly recessed that even the LF1 procedure would only advance it by a few mm, and therefore only confer a mild aesthetic advantage over the implants. So in other words, it just depends on how recessed my maxilla is. I'm honestly not sure how recessed it is as compared to the ideal maxilla, because I'm not sure what an "ideal" maxilla actually looks like relative to the other dimensions of my skull.

Even if the midface implants can be left in place, though, I'd probably be obligated to have them revised if the LF1 component of the procedure would make the existing implants look even less noticeable than they appear now.

Also, I wonder if I should get double jaw surgery before opting for eye area surgery since I'm not sure if the effects of moving the midface forward could alter how my lower eyelids and/or lateral canthi look.

it's not even worth posting dude, theres like literally just a tiny bit more projection of the philtrum/lefort1 area but its not close to a real lefort 1.

if its was just a solo surgery i would say it's not worth it but since i was under anaesthetic anyway and on eppley's table why not

 

[SurgerySoon]

it's not even worth posting dude, theres like literally just a tiny bit more projection of the philtrum/lefort1 area but its not close to a real lefort 1.

if its was just a solo surgery i would say it's not worth it but since i was under anaesthetic anyway and on eppley's table why not

Hmmm, that's too bad. Looks like I'll have to opt for the real deal after all if I really want to ascend
BTW @kota, I also meant to respond to your point about me possibly needing CCW rotation via anterior maxillary impaction in my previous post, but it won't let me edit my post, so I'll just add it here. This is actually what @KEy21 said I needed to get. I'm assuming the point of this is to make my maxilla both upturned as well as make my midface look more compact? If so, I think that's definitely something I'd benefit from.

It's going to cost thousands of dollars (probably $50k+ for all of it), but I honestly think that the combination of eye area overhaul surgery + double jaw surgery w/CCW rotation + revised midface implants and wraparound jaw implant could potentially ascend me to Chadlite status... and if it doesn't, then I'll at least have the peace of mind of knowing that I've overhauled virtually every structural element of my face that can be altered via surgery.

Oh yeah, and here's a morph that someone made for me last year on Lookism based on my pre-surgery photos. They tried to simulate what the outcome of double jaw surgery might look like (although I think they went overboard on bringing the chin too far forward -- I'm actually happy with how far my chin projects with the implant now)

Just for the sake of doing a side-by-side comparison, here the post-surgery pics that were taken back in September that I posted earlier in this thread:



So like I said in my other post, I guess it's just a question of determining whether the appearance of additional forward growth shown in the morph that I'd get from double jaw surgery is going to be worth spending the time and money to actually get the surgery.

 

[kota]

Hmmm, that's too bad. Looks like I'll have to opt for the real deal after all if I really want to ascend
BTW @kota, I also meant to respond to your point about me possibly needing CCW rotation via anterior maxillary impaction in my previous post, but it won't let me edit my post, so I'll just add it here. This is actually what @KEy21 said I needed to get. I'm assuming the point of this is to make my maxilla both upturned as well as make my midface look more compact? If so, I think that's definitely something I'd benefit from.

It's going to cost thousands of dollars (probably $50k+ for all of it), but I honestly think that the combination of eye area overhaul surgery + double jaw surgery w/CCW rotation + revised midface implants and wraparound jaw implant could potentially ascend me to Chadlite status... and if it doesn't, then I'll at least have the peace of mind of knowing that I've overhauled virtually every structural element of my face that can be altered via surgery.

Oh yeah, and here's a morph that someone made for me last year on Lookism based on my pre-surgery photos. They tried to simulate what the outcome of double jaw surgery might look like (although I think they went overboard on bringing the chin too far forward -- I'm actually happy with how far my chin projects with the implant now)

View attachment 168644

Just for the sake of doing a side-by-side comparison, here the post-surgery pics that were taken back in September that I posted earlier in this thread:



So like I said in my other post, I guess it's just a question of determining whether the appearance of additional forward growth shown in the morph that I'd get from double jaw surgery is going to be worth spending the time and money to actually get the surgery.

You need a ceph analysis to determine if your jaws are clinically recessed and if CCW would be indicated. The pictures aren't from a perfect side angle making it harder to judge, and there is no way to see your occlusal plane and other internal markers. Do you have the DICOM-files or anything from your previous CT for the implants?

That said, if bimax is indicated and for the results to be aesthetically pleasing you would likely need CCW. Linear advancement is often done for non cosmetic reasons in sleep apnea cases and tends to elongate the face as well as stretch the upper philtrum giving you a chimp face. The reason is that usually the occlusal plane naturally has a downwards slant, so a bimax without CCW would advance both jaws in a slightly downward direction which is not what you're looking for.

A CCW on the other hand would mean that your mandibular plane gets angled more upright, which is an effect I remember you were already looking for with your jaw implants. This can be achieved with either by posterior downgraft or anterior impaction (or both) depending on your case. That way the advancement doesn't need to be downwards. The chin will come forward slightly more in relation to the upper jaw by rotating the jaws CCW. If you think the chin becomes too prominent from this you could just remove the implant you already have. If you look at that morph, it looks like they gave you a posterior downgraft, giving more vertical height at the back and straightening your mandibular angle.

Many surgeons don't have experience or are not willing to do posterior downgraft even if you would benefit. I am skeptical if this Sailer guy would. Also he has a bad rep for frauding and some say even photoshoping his before and afters, as well as his exaggerated prices. Also the guy is very old. I see no reason to choose him at all.

I think the eye surgery alone will ascend you and should take precedence over any of this.

 

[AraTe]

Start mewing to hide submental fat your side profile will look 10x better

 

[PubertyMaxxer]

Thanks again for the info. There are definitely a lot of factors to consider. I guess that the most important one is the question of whether or not I'd get enough aesthetic benefit from undergoing double jaw surgery. I also don't want to risk getting my midface implants removed (not sure if chin implant would have to be removed or not), undergoing double jaw surgery, and then Dr. Y retires before I have a chance to go back to him to have my midface implants revised.

To clarify the point I made when I said that I wondered if a lip lift + paranasal/premaxillary implants could be enough, I actually mentioned the lip lift as a possible alternative method of getting that upturned/forward-projected upper-lip "look" that LF1 tends to achieve (although I understand that it wouldn't obtain the same total aesthetic effect). So in other words, I guess I was just considering these other procedures as camouflage procedures, basically.

BTW, you're definitely right that paranasal/premaxillary implants aren't capable of 100% mimicking the aesthetic results of LF1, but there are a few before/after implant surgery examples out there that have come surprisingly close (IMO):

View attachment 168443 View attachment 168445


View attachment 168446

View attachment 168447


It seems like one of the main drawbacks to paranasal/premaxillary implants is that they won't change the position of the upper lip, as you pointed out, which is why I wondered if combining the implants with a lip lift could get me reasonably close to the aesthetic benefits I'd get from LF1. But yeah, I agree that double jaw surgery is definitely the way to go for the absolute most convincing results possible when it comes to getting a more forward grown-looking face. For me, it's just a question of determining whether my face is flat/recessed-enough to warrant undergoing such an expensive, invasive surgery, or if the combination of implants + lip lift could get me close enough (60-70% of the results of LF1, in other words).

Damn
Insane improvement of forward groetj

 

[SurgerySoon]

You need a ceph analysis to determine if your jaws are clinically recessed and if CCW would be indicated. The pictures aren't from a perfect side angle making it harder to judge, and there is no way to see your occlusal plane and other internal markers. Do you have the DICOM-files or anything from your previous CT for the implants?

That said, if bimax is indicated and for the results to be aesthetically pleasing you would likely need CCW. Linear advancement is often done for non cosmetic reasons in sleep apnea cases and tends to elongate the face as well as stretch the upper philtrum giving you a chimp face. The reason is that usually the occlusal plane naturally has a downwards slant, so a bimax without CCW would advance both jaws in a slightly downward direction which is not what you're looking for.

A CCW on the other hand would mean that your mandibular plane gets angled more upright, which is an effect I remember you were already looking for with your jaw implants. This can be achieved with either by posterior downgraft or anterior impaction (or both) depending on your case. That way the advancement doesn't need to be downwards. The chin will come forward slightly more in relation to the upper jaw by rotating the jaws CCW. If you think the chin becomes too prominent from this you could just remove the implant you already have. If you look at that morph, it looks like they gave you a posterior downgraft, giving more vertical height at the back and straightening your mandibular angle.

Many surgeons don't have experience or are not willing to do posterior downgraft even if you would benefit. I am skeptical if this Sailer guy would. Also he has a bad rep for frauding and some say even photoshoping his before and afters, as well as his exaggerated prices. Also the guy is very old. I see no reason to choose him at all.

I think the eye surgery alone will ascend you and should take precedence over any of this.

Thanks for the info and explanations as usual. I do still have the DICOM files from my previous CT scan. I agree that it probably isn't a good idea to jump to having surgery done w/ Sailer for the reasons you listed (not to mention his prices).

Also, you're 100% correct in that one of the goals of the wraparound jaw implant would be to create the illusion of having lower (and thus more CCW-rotated) jaw angles. In fact, here's the 3D jaw implant design that Dr. Y came up with for me:



As you can see by looking at the photo I included of the native, non-augmented skull, my jaw bone is VERY steep, so I obviously grew up with a pattern of general downward growth. If you look at the photos of the wraparound jaw implant, it's pretty clear that one of Dr. Y's goals was to try and simulate the "look" of having a lower jaw angle, which I'm assuming is basically the same end result of what CCW rotation/posterior downgraft of the mandible via double jaw surgery would try and achieve.

BTW, I know that it looks like he added an excessive amount of additional width to the jaw angles, but when I asked him about this, he said that the actual visual outcomes of most wraparound jaw implants tend to look less extreme/dramatic than the virtual design dimensions would otherwise suggest. He also said that since he can easily shave off a few mm during the surgery itself, he usually prefers to err on the side of adding too much rather than too little width.

TBH, I think I'd be happy with how my mandible would look after getting the rest of the wraparound implant placed (as long as he shaves off some angle width if necessary). It's mostly for the sake of bringing the maxilla forward that I'm considering double jaw surgery. It would be nice if I could undergo LF1 on its own and just have the jaw implant placed, but obviously that would create a ridiculous overbite. That's why I was wondering whether paranasal implants would add just enough projection to make my maxilla look at least decently-projected.

@KEy21 tagging you in case you'd like to see the implant design scans

Start mewing to hide submental fat your side profile will look 10x better

Sadly enough, I had submental lipectomy done back when I had surgery in March. My hyoid bone is just low as fuck, so it looks like I have a double chin when there's hardly any fat left there. In fact, when I look straight up, my neck feels very tight, so I don't think there's much fat left to remove.

 

[kota]

Thanks for the info and explanations as usual. I do still have the DICOM files from my previous CT scan. I agree that it probably isn't a good idea to jump to having surgery done w/ Sailer for the reasons you listed (not to mention his prices).

Also, you're 100% correct in that one of the goals of the wraparound jaw implant would be to create the illusion of having lower (and thus more CCW-rotated) jaw angles. In fact, here's the 3D jaw implant design that Dr. Y came up with for me:



As you can see by looking at the photo I included of the native, non-augmented skull, my jaw bone is VERY steep, so I obviously grew up with a pattern of general downward growth. If you look at the photos of the wraparound jaw implant, it's pretty clear that one of Dr. Y's goals was to try and simulate the "look" of having a lower jaw angle, which I'm assuming is basically the same end result of what CCW rotation/posterior downgraft of the mandible via double jaw surgery would try and achieve.

BTW, I know that it looks like he added an excessive amount of additional width to the jaw angles, but when I asked him about this, he said that the actual visual outcomes of most wraparound jaw implants tend to look less extreme/dramatic than the virtual design dimensions would otherwise suggest. He also said that since he can easily shave off a few mm during the surgery itself, he usually prefers to err on the side of adding too much rather than too little width.

TBH, I think I'd be happy with how my mandible would look after getting the rest of the wraparound implant placed (as long as he shaves off some angle width if necessary). It's mostly for the sake of bringing the maxilla forward that I'm considering double jaw surgery. It would be nice if I could undergo LF1 on its own and just have the jaw implant placed, but obviously that would create a ridiculous overbite. That's why I was wondering whether paranasal implants would add just enough projection to make my maxilla look at least decently-projected.

@KEy21 tagging you in case you'd like to see the implant design scans


Sadly enough, I had submental lipectomy done back when I had surgery in March. My hyoid bone is just low as fuck, so it looks like I have a double chin when there's hardly any fat left there. In fact, when I look straight up, my neck feels very tight, so I don't think there's much fat left to remove.

Yes, your bite is fine so lefort 1 without BSSO is not on the cards. You will have to decide if it is worth the extra effort with bimax or if you just prefer to have the camouflage procedure with implants. Your occlusal plane looks normal to me BTW so not sure if they would be willing to give you CCW or how much, but I'm in a similar situation myself and had a doctor make a plan with CCW. You should be able to find a maxfac who does online consultations if you want a proper evaluation.

Re the submental mentioned above, I think it could likely be stretched more with BSSO than implants.