Religion debate mega thread

[PrinceLuenLeoncur]

Because God is the necessary precondition for everything to exist. Knowledge, logic, time & space, morals, the mind, etc.

Used too be atheist for half my life before i started doing research, i agree with that the personal experiences of someone is not a solid proof.

If u actually are willing to look into this and u arent just an edgy atheist then i would recommend searching up on yt:
Trancendental argument by Jay Dyer.

Dyer also has open debates on twitter space several times a month, so if u have questions or want to challenge his argument then go for it. I can also discuss if u want to, but i dont have too much knowledge and cant formulate things too well because english is not my first language

I’m glad I introduced you to Jay dyer and I’m not the only one who uses Jay dyer here you’re basically a clone of me and I’m all for it. Christos anesti


@Thebuffdon thid is why you should convert we orthodox are the most legit brother come HOME ill teach you and even give u my bible and prayer book I already council an ex muslima rn (she’s also curry like you) maybe you can marry her

 

[Bl0odKn1ght]

I don't like non text debates.

for me its opposite, i suck at writing english and lose my train of thought easier when not speaking lol

 

[Bl0odKn1ght]

All you need is the is. If something is objectively bad by nature then u have morals under atheism. If your asking me to prove whether something is wrong that is irrelevant to whether something can be objectively wrong by nature.

Nothing can be objectivly bad by nature?

And again the is ought problem still stands for religion. In fact its worse. If you say murder is wrong you cant prove it because you appeal to a divine being. I can appeal to another divine being which says murder is right and by your own standard youve just refuted yourself

U would have to have a authority though + if u made the claim u would then have to prove that yours is right

 

[Deleted member 69082]

Just contradicted yourself

God and a deity aren’t the same thing fucking retard

Why do you think you’re smart arguing with these users when they are literally crushing you in your shitty arguments

Embarrassing

 

[Deleted member 69082]

I’m glad I introduced you to Jay dyer and I’m not the only one who uses Jay dyer here you’re basically a clone of me and I’m all for it. Christos anesti


@Thebuffdon thid is why you should convert we orthodox are the most legit brother come HOME ill teach you and even give u my bible and prayer book I already council an ex muslima rn (she’s also curry like you) maybe you can marry her

Nigga is fucking crazy w that last part

 

[Deleted member 15778]

for me its opposite, i suck at writing english and lose my train of thought easier when not speaking lol

I feel bad debating religious people in real life. It's like beating up a baby.

 

[Bl0odKn1ght]

I’m glad I introduced you to Jay dyer and I’m not the only one who uses Jay dyer here you’re basically a clone of me and I’m all for it. Christos anesti


@Thebuffdon thid is why you should convert we orthodox are the most legit brother come HOME ill teach you and even give u my bible and prayer book I already council an ex muslima rn (she’s also curry like you) maybe you can marry her

Idk who u are, but good to see a brother. Im pretty bad at arguing tho, just trying to rn

 

[Bl0odKn1ght]

Morals don't prove god in any way. The feeling of right and wrong can be explained with evolution. It's very logical.

Feeling does not equal what is moral. never said morals proved God, but i said u cant have morals without him

 

[PrinceLuenLeoncur]

Idk who u are, but good to see a brother. Im pretty bad at arguing tho, just trying to rn

Don’t worry brother I’ll take the lead if you want I’m pretty experienced at this and on this form I’m the “religious” expert here everybody comes to me from all religious backgrounds for advice. Glory to god who has given me the Holy Spirit to speak in his divine eternal name to those who have yet to get the gospel.

Nigga is fucking crazy w that last part

Lmfao aight fair but point is she’s a person who knows what it’s like to leave Islam she’s kinda lonely in that sense tbh I feel sorry for her that’s why. But if you have any questions I’ll show you the gospel I advise reading John. I cried when I read the Bible for the first time last year and I never cry god truly is Love and not the SAME god as Allah the demon lord

 

[pandamonium]

f

Not gonna convince you so wont even try, if you were forced to be a believer which religion do you lean towards the most?

Hinduism
- Gets the age of the earth relatively close
- Oldest religion and it would make more sense for a divine being to reveal their religion first then let other religions trick people

 

[PrinceLuenLeoncur]

f

Hinduism
- Gets the age of the earth relatively close
- Oldest religion and it would make more sense for a divine being to reveal their religion first then let other religions trick people

Based on what ? That’s a stupid fallacy. Just because somethings older doesn’t make it “more true” what kind of stupid logic is that?

And who are you to presuppose what god would and wouldn’t do? Are you God? And if so where are you getting this idea that god WOULD do what you said which cultural bias is making you believe this shit?

 

[Bl0odKn1ght]

f

Hinduism
- Gets the age of the earth relatively close
- Oldest religion and it would make more sense for a divine being to reveal their religion first then let other religions trick people

Older does not mean more true lmao

 

[pandamonium]

I translate for you nigger.

When there is order there ist intelligence. For example, if you go to a walk in the forest, and you see a cellphone, or something as simple as a stone point attached to a stick or just two rocks one on top of the other; If you have a sense of intelligence you would know that someone did it, why? Because it has a certain order and therefore an intelligent being did it.

a cell phone was made instantaneously. its not fair to make it analogous to us because we are evolved. we adapted and got more intelligent over time. We didnt start off intelligent. A phone does. If evolution wasnt true and we just randomly were intelligent then sure your argument would have the slightest weight

Now, what do you think the brainless atheists will tell you? "IT WAS A COINCIDENCE", yes nigger, it was a coincidence that a fucking cell phone came out of fucking nowhere in the forest, unironically atheist view life that way, that's why they all eat soy, plants and are depressed.

nobody says a cell phone was made by coincidence

 

[Bl0odKn1ght]

@pandamonium This thread is all over the place rn

Mby its possible to start a private chat with fewer people

Me, @PrinceLuenLeoncur (if its okay wit u bro) and u also have someone

this way there is less chaos

 

[pandamonium]

God is not identical to reality but the source

if reality depends on god then god cannot exist otherwise he wouldnt be real himself. for some reason you think that reality is some magical concept. its literally just what we call everything that exists.

Also i never said god is identical to reality

Is logic self evident tho?

yes

If diffrent cultures and people see diffrent things as logical or illogical which one is the right one?

logic isnt based on "perception" again its self evident. There is no way to violate logic as it would be self refuting. Language and culture rely on certain aspects of logic so even using that assumes logic lmao

How would u prove logic aswell?

You would prove logic simply by the impossibility of the contrary. Its axiomatic

God is self evident because he is necessary for logic to even work

No he isnt and you havent shown why

We are both presupposing

ok? but im pressuposing something that can be demonstrated. God cant. In order for your argument to work you have to assume something in my worldview is created by it

 

[pandamonium]

Based on what ? That’s a stupid fallacy. Just because somethings older doesn’t make it “more true” what kind of stupid logic is that?

And who are you to presuppose what god would and wouldn’t do? Are you God? And if so where are you getting this idea that god WOULD do what you said which cultural bias is making you believe this shit?

i didnt say its more true because its older im saying its more likely in my opinion. If i was a god who wanted my religion to be known i would reveal my religion to the first human instead of waiting billions of years to do that. Thats how im processing it so if your asking what i would believe then thats my explanation of course i have to pressupose my thought process

 

[JasGews69x]

And whoever strives ˹in Allah’s cause˺, only does so for their own good. Surely Allah is not in need of ˹any of˺ His creation.
29:6
O humanity! It is you who stand in need of Allah, but Allah ˹alone˺ is the Self-Sufficient, Praiseworthy. 35:15
Or were they created by nothing, or are they ˹their own˺ creators? 52:35
Or did they create the heavens and the earth? In fact, they have no certainty.52:36

It was narrated from Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Every child is born in a state of fitrah (the natural state of man, i.e., Islam), then his parents make him into a Jew or a Christian or a Magian.”

Belief in God(all powerful,seeing eternal, invisible) is a innate human thing. So, why are you trying to deny your human nature?

 

[PrinceLuenLeoncur]

@pandamonium This thread is all over the place rn

Mby its possible to start a private chat with fewer people

Me, @PrinceLuenLeoncur (if its okay wit u bro) and u also have someone

this way there is less chaos

I don’t mind it here tbh I could care less I have destroyed the biggest atheist debaters on this form before being @Orc who is possibly the best or 2nd best GAYthieet debater here tbh

if reality depends on god then god cannot exist otherwise he wouldnt be real himself. for some reason you think that reality is some magical concept. its literally just what we call everything that exists.

Also i never said god is identical to reality

yes

logic isnt based on "perception" again its self evident. There is no way to violate logic as it would be self refuting. Language and culture rely on certain aspects of logic so even using that assumes logic lmao

You would prove logic simply by the impossibility of the contrary. Its axiomatic

No he isnt and you havent shown why

ok? but im pressuposing something that can be demonstrated. God cant. In order for your argument to work you have to assume something in my worldview is created by it

For the skeptic nothing is “self evident” I want you to explain and identity how it is “self evident” how do you even know what your experiencing is real?

Once again justify these things for me if your a true intellectual skeptic this is elementary school for you


How is logic axiomatic? And to whom is it axiomatic ? Simply calling logic axiomatic implies your metaphysical framework believes in abstract invariant entities something that entrust materialist paradigm fails to account for and in typical materialist fashion you result to deflection and simply pushing the question to the side because you don’t wanna Answer

How can these invariant abstract principles such as logic exist in an ever changing materialistic universe?

To even say the “impossibility” of the contrary posture that you have an ontological grounding for the existence and intelligibility of logic and its principles something which you hand wave away thus proving once again your position is Ad hoc and illogical

In your worldview logic cannot be accounted for because it denies an metaphysical foundation provided by GOD

 

[pandamonium]

I’m glad I introduced you to Jay dyer and I’m not the only one who uses Jay dyer here you’re basically a clone of me and I’m all for it. Christos anesti


@Thebuffdon thid is why you should convert we orthodox are the most legit brother come HOME ill teach you and even give u my bible and prayer book I already council an ex muslima rn (she’s also curry like you) maybe you can marry her

jay dyer TAG. is probably the worst argument ive ever heard ngl. and its self refuting in different aspects

 

[pandamonium]

And whoever strives ˹in Allah’s cause˺, only does so for their own good. Surely Allah is not in need of ˹any of˺ His creation.
29:6
O humanity! It is you who stand in need of Allah, but Allah ˹alone˺ is the Self-Sufficient, Praiseworthy. 35:15
Or were they created by nothing, or are they ˹their own˺ creators? 52:35
Or did they create the heavens and the earth? In fact, they have no certainty.52:36

It was narrated from Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Every child is born in a state of fitrah (the natural state of man, i.e., Islam), then his parents make him into a Jew or a Christian or a Magian.”

Belief in God(all powerful,seeing eternal, invisible) is a innate human thing. So, why are you trying to deny your human nature?

sure we have tendancies to believe in god due to
- not wanting to die
- fear of the unknown (after death)
- bandwagon (following what our parents/society tell us)
- appeals to our morality. we want to believe people who do wrong things even though they are happy now will get payback in the afterlife

 

[PrinceLuenLeoncur]

jay dyer TAG. is probably the worst argument ive ever heard ngl. and its self refuting in different aspects

Loud noise and yet you have provided nothing that counteracts nor disproves tag.

Simply positing something isn’t an eveidenfe against not an argument. Being your ammo and your argument or hold your peace and tap out

@Bl0odKn1ght this is how you shut down a GAYthiedt using philosophy

It’s their Kryptonite. What a pathetic world they live in, nihilistic meaningless and worthless.

 

[PrinceLuenLeoncur]

And whoever strives ˹in Allah’s cause˺, only does so for their own good. Surely Allah is not in need of ˹any of˺ His creation.
29:6
O humanity! It is you who stand in need of Allah, but Allah ˹alone˺ is the Self-Sufficient, Praiseworthy. 35:15
Or were they created by nothing, or are they ˹their own˺ creators? 52:35
Or did they create the heavens and the earth? In fact, they have no certainty.52:36

It was narrated from Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Every child is born in a state of fitrah (the natural state of man, i.e., Islam), then his parents make him into a Jew or a Christian or a Magian.”

Belief in God(all powerful,seeing eternal, invisible) is a innate human thing. So, why are you trying to deny your human nature?

I know we don’t agree (you’re Muslim and I destroyed you in our last debate by the grace of god) but you shouldn’t use scripture to prove religion to an GAYthiest. They will simply hand wave it away. You must argue using philosophy. Read up Ibn Sina, Ghazzali and other Islamic philosophers such as Ash’ari

They will better equip you on how to fight for your case

 

[JasGews69x]

sure we have tendancies to believe in god due to
- not wanting to die
- fear of the unknown (after death)
- bandwagon (following what our parents/society tell us)
- appeals to our morality. we want to believe people who do wrong things even though they are happy now will get payback in the afterlife

Its innate every human is BORN with it

 

[JasGews69x]

i know we don’t agree (you’re Muslim and I destroyed you in our last debate by the grace of god)

Is this what makes feel better when you sleep.

but you shouldn’t use scripture to prove religion to an GAYthiest.

How did people first become Muslim? it was through scripture

Or were they created by nothing, or are they ˹their own˺ creators?
Or did they create the heavens and the earth? In fact, they have no certainty. 52:35-36

This appeals to basic common sense,
This also talks about the atheist position perfectly.

 

[Niko.]

If evolution wasnt true and we just randomly were intelligent then sure your argument would have the slightest weight

You just stated what I've stated. JFL if you believe in evolution, niggers haven't evolved shit since the Romans were a civilized empire as well as other Indo-European civilizations. The cell phone analogy is correct and precise because it explains what I just stated and is indeed an example of how we were created.

nobody says a cell phone was made by coincidence

That's the stupid way atheists think.

 

[pandamonium]

For the skeptic nothing is “self evident”

yes lots of things are self evident.

I want you to explain and identity how it is “self evident”

A whole has more than its parts.
This is called a "analytical truth"
a bachelor is unmarried is also self evident.
all of these things are basic aspects of logic such as the law of non contradiction and law of identity

how do you even know what your experiencing is real?

its the only possibility thats been established. In a subject object relationship there has to be a "object". you cant have experiences if you dont have anything your experiencing lmao. If there is another possibility then it must be demonstrated to how its possible

Once again justify these things for me if your a true intellectual skeptic this is elementary school for you

this is basic brutha give me something harder

How is logic axiomatic?

because its self evident. Also even if it wasnt self evident it can still be axiomatic. All a axiom needs is to be accepted by both parties in a discussion. And since your using logic, if you deny it youve just refuted yourself. So theres no way to deny it therefore its a self evident truth lmao

And to whom is it axiomatic ?

anyone who uses the english language. even language itself requires logic lol

Simply calling logic axiomatic implies your metaphysical framework believes in abstract invariant entities

how the hell is logic a "entity" what does that even mean lmao

something that entrust materialist paradigm fails to account for

i am not a materialist im a physicalist

and in typical materialist fashion you result to deflection and simply pushing the question to the side because you don’t wanna Answer

I answered literally all of your questions

How can these invariant abstract principles such as logic exist in an ever changing materialistic universe?

Logic isnt subject to the universe so even if the universe changes that doesnt matter lmao. its what gives anything possibility in the first place. a universe without logic is imposible it would collapse

To even say the “impossibility” of the contrary posture that you have an ontological grounding for the existence and intelligibility of logic and its principles something which you hand wave away thus proving once again your position is Ad hoc and illogical

yes the imposibility of the contrary is a valid reductio argument. To deny logic you have to use multiple aspects of logic. Language structure itself requires logic

In your worldview logic cannot be accounted for because it denies an metaphysical foundation provided by GOD

god doesnt provide a foundation of logic its self refuting

A) If god created logic then its self refuting because he is also bound by logic (he cannot create a rock he cant lift)
B) if logic is intrinsic to gods nature then its arbitrary since he cant decide his nature. Therefore if his nature was any different he would be able to create a rock that he cant lift

 

[TiktokUser]

I am agnostic, but I feel the strongest evidence for believing in a higher power is seeing how elites worship one.

They seem to possess some knowledge of future events, which they use to manipulate and control the world, often at the expense of others. It’s telling that they believe in a god who will curse them if they don’t reveal their plans, which is why they follow the concept of karmic retribution, the belief that your actions, good or bad, will eventually return to you in the form of consequences. This is also why they use predictive programming in media like shows, brands, and movies. If you look back in history, you’ll find that several queens of different countries were actually men in disguise, and there is symbolism connected to satanic imagery.
I can expand further if you want

 

[buddhistking]

Religions gives people false hope and help people feel that they have a meaning in life.

False hope in what? And what meaning?

 

[PrinceLuenLeoncur]

yes lots of things are self evident.

A whole has more than its parts.
This is called a "analytical truth"
a bachelor is unmarried is also self evident.
all of these things are basic aspects of logic such as the law of non contradiction and law of identity

its the only possibility thats been established. In a subject object relationship there has to be a "object". you cant have experiences if you dont have anything your experiencing lmao. If there is another possibility then it must be demonstrated to how its possible

this is basic brutha give me something harder

because its self evident. Also even if it wasnt self evident it can still be axiomatic. All a axiom needs is to be accepted by both parties in a discussion. And since your using logic, if you deny it youve just refuted yourself. So theres no way to deny it therefore its a self evident truth lmao

anyone who uses the english language. even language itself requires logic lol

how the hell is logic a "entity" what does that even mean lmao

i am not a materialist im a physicalist

I answered literally all of your questions

Logic isnt subject to the universe so even if the universe changes that doesnt matter lmao. its what gives anything possibility in the first place. a universe without logic is imposible it would collapse

yes the imposibility of the contrary is a valid reductio argument. To deny logic you have to use multiple aspects of logic. Language structure itself requires logic

god doesnt provide a foundation of logic its self refuting

A) If god created logic then its self refuting because he is also bound by logic (he cannot create a rock he cant lift)
B) if logic is intrinsic to gods nature then its arbitrary since he cant decide his nature. Therefore if his nature was any different he would be able to create a rock that he cant lift

Once again a true skeptic doubts EVERYTHING, nothing is “self” evident even their own sense experiences so yes even their experiences are brought into doubt

What you have done is created an arbitrary criteria for truth (logic) whilst denying others (god) without a justification.
Your skeptic paradigm denies foundational truths but your “self evidence” presupposes them

I mean I can use the same argument with you. If logic is self evident then why can’t I say god is self evident?

It’s just inconsistent

Why don’t you google what an abstract invariant entity is (entity is just another word for an existence as in something existing it’s an philosophical term, you need to get good at philosophy if you hope to keep up son)

So as a physicalist have you heard of the argument against it? Called the “knowledge argument” here’s an copy paste “mary apparently learns a new fact about human color experience. but she already knew all the physical facts before she left her room. so, what she learns must be a non-physical fact. since there are non-physical facts, physicalism is false.” Brutal your whole worldview destroyed


If logic isn’t subject to the universe then what is it subject to? What keeps it invariant and its principles immutable? What accounts for it at the highest level?


@Bl0odKn1ght this is how you bend over these niggers gooood Christos anesti

 

[pandamonium]

You just stated what I've stated. JFL if you believe in evolution,

evolution can be demonstrated lmao

niggers haven't evolved shit since the Romans were a civilized empire

weve gotten more taller and our average iqs have increased. probably other shit but i really couldnt care less

as well as other Indo-European civilizations.

The cell phone analogy is correct

false. your comparing something that was made by a intelligent mind (watch). to how the intelligent mind (humans) was made in the first place (millions of years of evolution)

and precise because it explains what I just stated and is indeed an example of how we were created.

That's the stupid way atheists think.

dont know a single atheist who believes that but ok

 

[JasGews69x]

evolution can be demonstrated lmao

in a lab?

weve gotten more taller and our average iqs have increased. probably other shit but i really couldnt care less

therefore we came from a fish

false. your comparing something that was made by a intelligent mind (watch). to how the intelligent mind (humans) was made in the first place (millions of years of evolution)

time of the gaps fallacy, just give it millions of years bro , it will eventually create itself bro

Anyway,can something come from nothing?

 

[pandamonium]

Once again a true skeptic doubts EVERYTHING, nothing is “self” evident

i just demonstrated to you multiple things that are self evident lmao. To deny them your rejecting the law of non contradiction and your whole argument collapses

even their own sense experiences so yes even their experiences are brought into doubt

experiences are yet another thing that are self evident. if there is experience there is something that is being experienced. Combine this with occams razor. the simpler explanation is that my experiences are accurate objectively. A lot simpler than im being mind controlled into thinking my experiences are accurate

What you have done is created an arbitrary criteria for truth (logic)

i didnt create any criteria what are you talking about lmao. again all youve managed to do is deny the law of non contradiction to say nothing is self evident. Also saying nothing is self evident is also self refuting on its own

whilst denying others (god) without a justification.

i can deny god cause you havent shown in your argument why we need god

Your skeptic paradigm denies foundational truths but your “self evidence” presupposes them

self evident truths are foundational truths lmao. It proves itself. Denying it often leads to modal collapse depending on what it is

I mean I can use the same argument with you. If logic is self evident then why can’t I say god is self evident?

Because there is nothinig about god that is self evident. Logic is clearly demonstrable. You cant deny logic without using logic. Also even if you assert that god is self evident without giving a basis to why i simply dont have to accept it in the same way you can not accept logic and again refute yourself because you have to use logic in this argument

It’s just inconsistent

Why don’t you google what an abstract invariant entity is (entity is just another word for an existence as in something existing it’s an philosophical term, you need to get good at philosophy if you hope to keep up son)

i wouldnt say logic is a entity on its own but rather intrinsic to reality or ontology/epistemology itself

So as a physicalist have you heard of the argument against it? Called the “knowledge argument” here’s an copy paste “mary apparently learns a new fact about human color experience. but she already knew all the physical facts before she left her room. so, what she learns must be a non-physical fact. since there are non-physical facts, physicalism is false.” Brutal your whole worldview destroyed

theres a difference between phenomenal and propositional knowledge. Its just two sides to the same fact. learn the distinction to realize how stupid this argument is lmao

If logic isn’t subject to the universe then what is it subject to? What keeps it invariant and its principles immutable? What accounts for it at the highest level?

its subject to reality or a attribute of reality itself since things which are illogical cannot exist in reality. Reality doesnt change so logic cannot change. What accounts for it is reality which is something objectively real

@Bl0odKn1ght this is how you bend over these niggers gooood Christos anesti

no way you actually thought any of your arguments are good lmao. We can vc so i can expose how stupid you sound

 

[gymceltard]

Religion is a way to control the population so that it doesn't devolve into degeneracy.

I'm jealous of people who lives 100+ years ago who got to live in conditions that were well suited to the human condition. Fundamentally, humans are designed to survive and procreate. Therefore, to live happy lives, we should focus on building a healthy family. The only reason this was possible was because people followed religions.

Nowadays, everyone has given up on religion and we have to deal with this clown world of degeneracy every day. No trad wife/husband roles, LGBT, porn and Onlyfans, drugs, hookup culture and meaningless sex, childfree movements, wageslaving for globocorps, race mixing, forced diversity everywhere, immigrants, no sense of community, high divorce rates, plumetting white birth rates, feminism, tech addictions, female hypergamy. This is what we have to deal with today. The conditions for raising a healthy family are terrible. Your wife will likely divorce you, you can't afford many children, your children will be fucked up because of parental drug usage and your children will be corrupted by society. Building a healthy family is almost impossible.

Very high IQ

 

[FaceandBBC]

False hope in what? And what meaning?

Religion holds everyone to the same moral standards so that they can expect to have the same outcome in life which isn't realistic. People use religion as a cope to get through difficult times in life. This is why you hear retards saying shit like "I'm at a low right now but muh God and Jesus is gonna save me and has plans for me." Pure brainwashing.

 

[PrinceLuenLeoncur]

i just demonstrated to you multiple things that are self evident lmao. To deny them your rejecting the law of non contradiction and your whole argument collapses

experiences are yet another thing that are self evident. if there is experience there is something that is being experienced. Combine this with occams razor. the simpler explanation is that my experiences are accurate objectively. A lot simpler than im being mind controlled into thinking my experiences are accurate

i didnt create any criteria what are you talking about lmao. again all youve managed to do is deny the law of non contradiction to say nothing is self evident. Also saying nothing is self evident is also self refuting on its own

i can deny god cause you havent shown in your argument why we need god

self evident truths are foundational truths lmao. It proves itself. Denying it often leads to modal collapse depending on what it is

Because there is nothinig about god that is self evident. Logic is clearly demonstrable. You cant deny logic without using logic. Also even if you assert that god is self evident without giving a basis to why i simply dont have to accept it in the same way you can not accept logic and again refute yourself because you have to use logic in this argument

i wouldnt say logic is a entity on its own but rather intrinsic to reality or ontology/epistemology itself

theres a difference between phenomenal and propositional knowledge. Its just two sides to the same fact. learn the distinction to realize how stupid this argument is lmao

its subject to reality or a attribute of reality itself since things which are illogical cannot exist in reality. Reality doesnt change so logic cannot change. What accounts for it is reality which is something objectively real

no way you actually thought any of your arguments are good lmao. We can vc so i can expose how stupid you sound

So you still can’t make an simple account for logic

You still insist in self evident truths inspite of there being no argumentation you have provided as to why I should just “accept” them as such.

Your paradigm was completely cucked by one google search brutal…

Infact logic isn’t even physical… so how do you know it exists as logic is an abstract entity that whisky intersects with the psysical world we ourselves cannot touch grasp or see logic ontologically as it isn’t an physical material reality nor are its immutable principles which are used for well argumentation. I’m saying logic exists thefore god as I ground logic in god as God is the ultimate Axiom the ultimate justification for all of reality as logic is an reflection of the divine mind

Once again fucking justify and make an account for logic or you have lost stop being a GAYthiedt fuck your beginning to PISS ME OFF

 

[pandamonium]

in a lab?

yes actually we have observed evolution in a lab both speciation and subspeciation which do u want me to show?

therefore we came from a fish

one of our ancestors yes

time of the gaps fallacy, just give it millions of years bro , it will eventually create itself bro

the hell is time of the gaps. your committing a strawman trying to think of a actual argument

Anyway,can something come from nothing?

idk but im pretty sure it cant. We have observed molecules form from a vacuum without a cause. But i wouldnt say thats nothing

 

[buddhistking]

Religion holds everyone to the same moral standards so that they can expect to have the same outcome in life which isn't realistic. People use religion as a cope to get through difficult times in life. This is why you hear retards saying shit like "I'm at a low right now but muh God and Jesus is gonna save me and has plans for me." Pure brainwashing.

Yeah but not all religions are theistic, and rely on ppl praying to sky daddies to save them. That's why I was wondering cus you mentioned Buddha is cope in the same way that Allah and Jesus is a cope but Buddha isn't a God or a divine prophet, you don't pray to him for forgiveness or to save you or for anything. Buddhism is non-theistic, it's about self-realisation and personal responsibility, it doesn't give you this cope of God is gonna come from the sky and save you

That's part of why I'm Buddhist as it's more of a philosophical path than the proper theist religion that I followed before (Christianity)

 

[pandamonium]

So you still can’t make an simple account for logic

i did i said their necessary/i pressupose them. the contrary is impossible and if it is show it without using logic

You still insist in self evident truths inspite of there being no argumentation you have provided as to why I should just “accept” them as such.

I have because you are accepting it right now. You realize you are trapped into accepting it or youve just shot yourself in the leg

Your paradigm was completely cucked by one google search brutal…

? you failed

Infact logic isn’t even physical… so how do you know it exists as logic is an abstract entity that whisky intersects with the psysical world we ourselves cannot touch grasp or see logic ontologically as it isn’t an physical material reality nor are its immutable principles which are used for well argumentation.

you dont have to see or touch it. All of things in physical reality are bound by it. Even your "god" would be bound by it if you pressuposed it lmao

I’m saying logic exists thefore god as I ground logic in god as God is the ultimate Axiom the ultimate justification for all of reality as logic is an reflection of the divine mind

its not a justification at all its self refuting in multiple ways, its question begging fallacy and even if i allow you to beg the question its still debunked lmao

Once again fucking justify and make an account for logic or you have lost stop being a GAYthiedt fuck your beginning to PISS ME OFF

i just did its self evident

 

[JasGews69x]

Religion holds everyone to the same moral standards

˹He is the One˺ Who created death and life in order to test which of you is best in deeds. And He is the Almighty, All-Forgiving.67:2
It doesnt matter whether you are tall,short,poor,rich,ugly,good-looking. Only deeds matter to Allah. We all came from dust and we will all return to it equally.

so that they can expect to have the same outcome in life which isn't realistic.

The outcome is gratitude in good times and patience in hard time to attain paradise. It being 'not realistic' has no bearing on reality.

People use religion as a cope to get through difficult times in life.

Life was never meant to be paradise. This life was always meant to be a struggle .Allah gave us revelation so we would navigate through life in the best manner possible.

Indeed, We have created humankind in ˹constant˺ struggle.90:4

 

[JasGews69x]

yes actually we have observed evolution in a lab both speciation and subspeciation which do u want me to show?

So we observed a cell come from nothing then turn into a fish then a human?

one of our ancestors yes

Similar genes doesn't mean we came from each other. It just means we're made of similar materials.

the hell is time of the gaps. your committing a strawman trying to think of a actual argument

Give something millions of years and something will eventually happen. Thats like saying if I had the ingredients for a cheesecake and left them for a few million years, a cheesecake will be made.

idk but im pretty sure it cant. We have observed molecules form from a vacuum without a cause. But i wouldnt say thats nothing

I meant absolute nothingness. No matter, no space, no energy , no quantum vacuum. Meaning theres nothing to come out of.

 

[PrinceLuenLeoncur]

i did i said their necessary/i pressupose them. the contrary is impossible and if it is show it without using logic

I have because you are accepting it right now. You realize you are trapped into accepting it or youve just shot yourself in the leg

? you failed

you dont have to see or touch it. All of things in physical reality are bound by it. Even your "god" would be bound by it if you pressuposed it lmao

its not a justification at all its self refuting in multiple ways, its question begging fallacy and even if i allow you to beg the question its still debunked lmao

i just did its self evident

Nobody’s begging the question your the only one using circular argumentation by saying “it’s self evident because it’s self evident” as I said justify it or accept your belief is illogical
I already just fucking told you in my last comment I don’t believe it’s “self evident” I believe in it because I ground it in GOD. WE ARE NOT THE SAME.

Ok let’s try again… where does logic come from? If your a physicalist that means everything that exists is pehyxal then explain to me how logic an abstract invariant imutable entity which cannot be touched seen measured or empirically evidenced and is not dependant on space time explain how they can exist in your paradigm worldview which posits all existence is material, sorry I mean “Physcial” which is the same thing btw

And if so how can something non physical govern physicality? How does it universally bind and govern physical processes

If logic is a property of a changing physical universe then how can it be invariant and universal? When the physical universe is entropic in nature?

Infact how can logic arise form a physical process ?

Your belief is illogical you have to borrow from theistic frameworks to even use it that’s the joke


Anyways you lost @Bl0odKn1ght once again this is how you clap these guy like Jay dyer

 

[pandamonium]

Nobody’s begging the question your the only one using circular argumentation by saying “it’s self evident because it’s self evident”

where did i say its self evident because its self evident i already showed how its self evident lmao. Actually respond to it

as I said justify it or accept your belief is illogical

I keep doing it multiple times. You not liking the answer, strawmanning the answer, or you not understanding the answer isnt a response

I already just fucking told you in my last comment I don’t believe it’s “self evident” I believe in it because I ground it in GOD. WE ARE NOT THE SAME.

thats circular as well you havent demonstrated either god or that logic must be grounded in god nor answered my objections to why logic cant be grounded in god. You simply making assertions isnt a argument Lmao

Ok let’s try again… where does logic come from?

its the nature of reality

If your a physicalist that means everything that exists is pehyxal

what

then explain to me how logic an abstract invariant imutable entity

its not a entity

which cannot be touched seen measured or empirically evidenced

thats not what physicalist means

and is not dependant on space time

when did my argument ever allude to time

explain how they can exist in your paradigm worldview which posits all existence is material,

i never positted that everything that exists is material

sorry I mean “Physcial”

ok

which is the same thing btw

wrong for example space time is physical but immaterial

And if so how can something non physical govern physicality?

youve just self refuted yourself again. You made the claim that god is the basis for logic and hes non physical lmaoooo. how many times do you need to keep refuting yourself before you retire this terrible argument.

Also somethnig non physical can govern things that are physical in the same way gravity (non physical) governs things which are physical. its an attribute of everything in reality. it is a necessary precondition for existence therefore anything that exists requires it

How does it universally bind and govern physical processes

just answered stop repeating the same question you sound desperate

If logic is a property of a changing physical universe

its not lmao

then how can it be invariant and universal? When the physical universe is entropic in nature?

you just attacked a strawman

Infact how can logic arise form a physical process ?

it doesnt "arise" from anything its a precondition

Your belief is illogical

youve shown no logical inconsistencies. instead youve self refuted yourself over and over and made desperate strawmans. Its okay the strongest argument for god which requires pressuppositions has already been debunked by its own logic

you have to borrow from theistic frameworks

how? pressupositions arent theistic

to even use it that’s the joke

lmao what

Anyways you lost

you committed multiple fallacies and debunked yourself more than youve debunked me

@Bl0odKn1ght once again this is how you clap these guy

you havent done anything

like Jay dyer

jay dyer is terrible stop fanboying him

 

[pandamonium]

So we observed a cell come from nothing

goalpost shift. also nice strawman
nobody believes a cell comes from "nothing"

then turn into a fish then a human?

youve just goalpost shifted. Also we dont have to "observe" a million year process in the span of a few thousand. we can know its true in various ways such as dna and fossil records. just because youve made a unfalsifiable standard doesnt mean people who dont pressupose god exists or evolution is false wont see the evidence and think whats more plausible

Similar genes doesn't mean we came from each other. It just means we're made of similar materials.

Materials dont determine dna. its how the materials are specfically structured. If your arguing god gave humans and animals the same dna then your making a ad hoc appeal and must demonstrate that. Also we have more than dna we have fossils. We can prove macro evolution (transition between species) easily. so if ur only contention is the specific path of the macroevolution thats irrelevant anyways.

Give something millions of years and something will eventually happen.

depends on what specifically it is

Thats like saying if I had the ingredients for a cheesecake and left them for a few million years, a cheesecake will be made.

well no because "ingredients" doesnt mean the cheesecake will be made. in the same way if you left dna or left proteins that build up dna out for billions of years it wont necessarily form a human protein it could make some random animal

I meant absolute nothingness. No matter, no space, no energy , no quantum vacuum.

thats not even possible lmao

Meaning theres nothing to come out of.

again not possible

 

[pandamonium]

God and a deity aren’t the same thing fucking retard

Why do you think you’re smart arguing with these users when they are literally crushing you in your shitty arguments

Embarrassing

deism
noun

belief in the existence of a supreme being, specifically of a creator who does not intervene in the universe.
is this nigga retarded lmao if you create everything and your a supreme being your a deity?
if your deist you believe in either a god or multiple gods
just admit youve embarassed yourself
you absolute fucking retard leave the thread

 

[pandamonium]

Nothing can be objectivly bad by nature?

can you demonstrate this?

U would have to have a authority though

this is fallacious. if your discreditting my argument based off of authority that is both a genetic fallacy and appeal to authority

+ if u made the claim u would then have to prove that yours is right

you havent proven christianity is right so by ur standard murder is both objectively right and objectively wrong

 

[JasGews69x]

goalpost shift. also nice strawman

No, i made it more specific

nobody believes a cell comes from "nothing"

So if it exists, it came from something. Thanks

youve just goalpost shifted

Again, i made it more specific.

Also we dont have to "observe" a million year process in the span of a few thousand.

We dont need evidence bro

If your arguing god gave humans and animals the same dna then your making a ad hoc appeal and must demonstrate that.

No, i mean we came from the same elements e.g water

We can prove macro evolution (transition between species) easily. so if ur only contention is the specific path of the macroevolution thats irrelevant anyways.

I dont have a problem with that

in the same way if you left dna or left proteins that build up dnaout for billions of years it wont necessarily form a human protein it could make some random animal

It cant make a human protein, but an animal which are our 'ancestors' then turn into a human

thats not even possible lmao

Thank you for agreeing with me

again not possible

Therefore we came from something that always existed

 

[pandamonium]

No, i made it more specific

you went from prove evolution to prove we came from fish

So if it exists, it came from something. Thanks

ok? im pretty sure everyone knows life came from something lmao

Again, i made it more specific.

nice cope. You ran

We dont need evidence bro

there is plenty of evidence. your standard of evidence doesnt have to be met. Just has to be accepted by the scientific community and people who are actually looking for a answer not people who are looking to find reasons to believe in god

No, i mean we came from the same elements e.g water

that doesnt mean we will have the same dna u fucking retard. Dna structures are extremely specific and water has almost nothing to do with your dna, all it does it hold it together somewhat but wouldnt effect the actual dna test

I dont have a problem with that

then whats your actual argument

It cant make a human protein,

not sure what it would make

but an animal which are our 'ancestors' then turn into a human

can you provide evidence for this?

Thank you for agreeing with me

i never disagreed lol

Therefore we came from something that always existed

no? u idiot the vacuum of space has always existed. your saying "before vacuums existed"

 

[PrinceLuenLeoncur]

where did i say its self evident because its self evident i already showed how its self evident lmao. Actually respond to it

I keep doing it multiple times. You not liking the answer, strawmanning the answer, or you not understanding the answer isnt a response

thats circular as well you havent demonstrated either god or that logic must be grounded in god nor answered my objections to why logic cant be grounded in god. You simply making assertions isnt a argument Lmao

its the nature of reality

what

its not a entity

thats not what physicalist means

when did my argument ever allude to time

i never positted that everything that exists is material

ok

wrong for example space time is physical but immaterial

youve just self refuted yourself again. You made the claim that god is the basis for logic and hes non physical lmaoooo. how many times do you need to keep refuting yourself before you retire this terrible argument.

Also somethnig non physical can govern things that are physical in the same way gravity (non physical) governs things which are physical. its an attribute of everything in reality. it is a necessary precondition for existence therefore anything that exists requires it

just answered stop repeating the same question you sound desperate

its not lmao

you just attacked a strawman

it doesnt "arise" from anything its a precondition

youve shown no logical inconsistencies. instead youve self refuted yourself over and over and made desperate strawmans. Its okay the strongest argument for god which requires pressuppositions has already been debunked by its own logic

how? pressupositions arent theistic

lmao what

you committed multiple fallacies and debunked yourself more than youve debunked me

you havent done anything

jay dyer is terrible stop fanboying him

You’re officially brain dead. Your not worth me arguing with you, ima just use AI for this last comment GOOD BYE because your seriously retarded you don’t even know what Physicalist means your own fucking belief system


Anyways

1. Self-Evidence and Circular Reasoning:

Your opponent asserts that the laws of logic are self-evident and accuses the presuppositionalist argument of circular reasoning without demonstration.


• Response: Presuppositional apologetics posits that the intelligibility of logic presupposes the existence of the Christian God. This is not a mere assertion but an argument that without the grounding provided by God, the universality and immutability of logical laws lack a sufficient foundation. The claim is that alternative worldviews, including atheistic or physicalist perspectives, cannot coherently account for the preconditions of intelligibility, such as logic, uniformity of nature, and moral absolutes.





2. Misrepresentation of Physicalism:

Your opponent clarifies that physicalism does not assert that everything is material, citing spacetime as physical but immaterial.


• Response: Physicalism, broadly construed, holds that everything is either physical or supervenes on the physical. The presuppositional critique challenges physicalism’s ability to account for abstract entities like laws of logic, which are non-empirical, universal, and invariant. The contention is that within a physicalist framework, explaining the existence and applicability of such abstract entities remains problematic.





3. Non-Physical Governance of Physical Reality:

Your opponent argues that non-physical entities can govern physical reality, using gravity as an example.


• Response: In physics, gravity is understood as the curvature of spacetime caused by mass and energy, thus operating within the physical realm. The presuppositional argument focuses on the necessity of a metaphysical grounding for the laws of logic, asserting that without an absolute, unchanging foundation (i.e., God), the universality and necessity of logical laws cannot be adequately explained.

4. Grounding of Logic in God:

Your opponent challenges the assertion that logic must be grounded in God, labeling it as an unsupported assertion.


• Response: The presuppositionalist argument is that the laws of logic reflect the consistent and rational nature of God. Without such a grounding, the universality, immutability, and necessity of logical laws become inexplicable. This is not a mere assertion but a transcendental argument aiming to demonstrate that the very possibility of logic presupposes the existence of God.


5. Presuppositions and Theistic Arguments:

Your opponent states that presuppositions aren’t inherently theistic.


• Response: While presuppositions themselves are not inherently theistic, the presuppositionalist contends that certain fundamental presuppositions (e.g., the reliability of logic, the uniformity of nature) find their most coherent and consistent grounding within a theistic, specifically Christian, worldview. The argument is that non-theistic worldviews lack the necessary preconditions to account for these presuppositions fully.


6. Allegations of Fallacies and Strawman Arguments:

Your opponent accuses the presuppositionalist of committing fallacies and attacking strawman positions.


• Response: It’s crucial to engage with the actual positions presented without misrepresentation. The presuppositionalist argument seeks to perform an internal critique of opposing worldviews, demonstrating that without the Christian God, such worldviews lead to epistemological inconsistencies or arbitrariness. If specific fallacies or misrepresentations have occurred, they should be identified and addressed directly to ensure a constructive dialogue.


Conclusion:

The presuppositionalist approach argues that the preconditions for intelligibility, including the laws of logic, are grounded in the character and nature of the Christian God. Without this foundation, it contends that alternative worldviews cannot provide a coherent basis for these preconditions. Engaging with this argument requires examining whether non-theistic perspectives can indeed account for the universality, immutability, and necessity of logical laws without appealing to a transcendent source.





There. A nice detailed explanation of everything saying but perfectly written out and articulated in a neutral way that YOU can understand YAY

 

[maxxmaxxing-]

all i know is the biggest cause of conflict death and issues in history has been religion

 

[JasGews69x]

you went from prove evolution to prove we came from fish

thats evolution

nice cope. You ran

If it comforts you

there is plenty of evidence

What is the scientific method?

your standard of evidence doesnt have to be met.

I want to use the scientific method to prove a scientific theory(fairytale)

Just has to be accepted by the scientific community

Accepted by the scientific community without using science?. Are scientists your god?
Scientists m

people who are actually looking for a answer not people who are looking to find reasons to believe in god

Your denying your human nature of the knowledge of God (Justin barret study)

that doesnt mean we will have the same dna u fucking retard. Dna structures are extremely specific and water has almost nothing to do with your dna, all it does it hold it together somewhat but wouldnt effect the actual dna test

Nice straw man. I never said we have the same dna. I said 'similar genes'

then whats your actual argument

None, I have no problem with Macroevolution.

can you provide evidence for this?

Isnt that what you believe? That we came from a single cell which eventually turned into a human from?

u idiot

Nice ad hominem, you triggered?

the vacuum of space has always existed. your saying

Proof? Is the vacuum conscious? Does it have a will? Does it have knowledge?