Saving for surgery almost $5k saved

[Deleted member 19317]

My goal is to save up AT LEAST $35k in the next 2.5 years then blow it all at once on surgery in nearly 3 fucking years.

Sounds utterly cucked but I have a job contract that I basically can't take long time off of to recover from brutal surgery.

I'm so fucking subhuman. Im literally boneless but I'm tall so at least I won't need LL.

My plan here is to fix my recession via bimax and genio. That will make me forward grown and fix my absolute comical circle face that my genetics gave me. The genio should help with the circularness as well hopefully.

I'm BONELESS though, so probably gonna need infraorbital and browridge implants... at this point a fucking lefort 3.

TO TOP IT ALL OFF im fucking balding at 21 just lol. im GONNA need probably a hair transplant in turkey im thinning to death at nw0.

this will all in theory make me human. if not i pray i have the guts to visit gandy.

inshallah.

 

[Deleted member 19317]

anyone have any clue what the prices at rameiri are gonna look like in 2.5 years or so? im praying his bimax and genio prices don't skyrocket or it's very very over for me. same with hair transplant in turkey. unironically im money coping so hard lately eating like a bird not driving due to expensive gas prices just to save for surgery. im literally going full ascend or fucking die.

 

[buflek]

jfl at this subhuman

 

[Hipcel]

Add voice deepening surgery. If you go to Turkey for HTs, it's there

 

[CtrlAltDelete]

Don't do any surgeries unless you absolutely have to is my recommendation. Don't waste money on surgeries you won't need trying to create mini halos, and understand the risk that comes with every surgery and know that you could be part of the minority that gets butched. With that being said, goodluck faggot.

 

[Deleted member 19317]

Don't do any surgeries unless you absolutely have to is my recommendation. Don't waste money on surgeries you won't need trying to create mini halos, and understand the risk that comes with every surgery and know that you could be part of the minority that gets butched. With that being said, goodluck faggot.

nigger have u ever tried being recessed and balding it's so cage tier as an existence unironically am worth more as fertilizer for plants than my current state

 

[Deleted member 19317]

Add voice deepening surgery. If you go to Turkey for HTs, it's there

doesn't it make it so u can't scream or something jfl tier cucked like that? if not ill do it why not im FULLY invested in looks > all

 

[CtrlAltDelete]

nigger have u ever tried being recessed and balding it's so cage tier as an existence unironically am worth more as fertilizer for plants than my current state

Could always be worse, you just don't know what that's like. No one does until they realize it can happen to them.

A user on here had Botox and was completely fucked over by it. No one is special, doctors aren't saints and everyone is out for your money with zero fucks given about you in particular.

Learn gratitude and understand that having severe COSMETIC surgery could leave you worse off than you initially were. Note that I'm not discouraging you from having surgery, but I'm only warning you that things don't always go as well as you anticipate them to.

 

[Deleted member 19317]

Could always be worse, you just don't know what that's like. No one does until they realize it can happen to them.

A user on here had Botox and was completely fucked over by it. No one is special, doctors aren't saints and everyone is out for your money with zero fucks given about you in particular.

Learn gratitude and understand that having severe COSMETIC surgery could leave you worse off than you initially were. Note that I'm not discouraging you from having surgery, but I'm only warning you that things don't always go as well as you anticipate them to.

dude im LITERALLY a fucking incel. like life isn't even worth living at this point. sure there's risk but what's the alternative? eternal suffering from being incel? FUCK that.

 

[Moldovancel]

My goal is to save up AT LEAST $35k in the next 2.5 years then blow it all at once on surgery in nearly 3 fucking years.

Sounds utterly cucked but I have a job contract that I basically can't take long time off of to recover from brutal surgery.

I'm so fucking subhuman. Im literally boneless but I'm tall so at least I won't need LL.

My plan here is to fix my recession via bimax and genio. That will make me forward grown and fix my absolute comical circle face that my genetics gave me. The genio should help with the circularness as well hopefully.

I'm BONELESS though, so probably gonna need infraorbital and browridge implants... at this point a fucking lefort 3.

TO TOP IT ALL OFF im fucking balding at 21 just lol. im GONNA need probably a hair transplant in turkey im thinning to death at nw0.

this will all in theory make me human. if not i pray i have the guts to visit gandy.

inshallah.

At least you have a goal to work towards. You'll be motivated to work

How much is bimax and genio?

 

[CtrlAltDelete]

dude im LITERALLY a fucking incel. like life isn't even worth living at this point. sure there's risk but what's the alternative? eternal suffering from being incel? FUCK that.

I can think of many ways you could spend that $35,000 on yourself and being happier than you could ever imagine.

When you say you're incel, I am almost certain you are not deformed. Maybe you're ugly, in that case it's fine, you can always whoremax and trust me, it is just as fulfilling and satisfying if not more satisfying than dating women.

Androcentric societies always had great men that never even had relationships, but rather relied on cooming in prostitutes. Some of history's greatest figures actually were giga coomers who enjoyed having sex with prostitutes and preferred it to marriage because of it's convenience & accessibility (no jestermaxing, simping, etc). Read into Ancient Rome.

 

[Deleted member 19317]

At least you have a goal to work towards. You'll be motivated to work

How much is bimax and genio?

at the blackpilled surgeons NOT cheap. but hopefully doable enough. something like 20k.

 

[Deleted member 19317]

I can think of many ways you could spend that $35,000 on yourself and being happier than you could ever imagine.

When you say you're incel, I am almost certain you are not deformed. Maybe you're ugly, in that case it's fine, you can always whoremax and trust me, it is just as fulfilling and satisfying if not more satisfying than dating women.

Androcentric societies always had great men that never even had relationships, but rather relied on cooming in prostitutes. Some of history's greatest figures actually were giga coomers who enjoyed having sex with prostitutes and preferred it to marriage because of it's convenience & accessibility (no jestermaxing, simping, etc). Read into Ancient Rome.

nah man trust me im not able to cope. tried it all but being good looking and doing ANYTHING is the meaning of life. doing anything whilst not being mogger is literally just cope for not fulfilling the meaning of life. tried coping but i see right through it and know im just coping. only being good looking is the solution to being ugly, it's all cope. there is no happiness if you are ugly, just endless cope.

 

[dreamcake1mo]

Your mentality is similar to what a FTM would say. Like guy said above, its much more you can do for your validation with 35000. With surgery, the line is crossed when its something that isn't maxxing what you already have. Bonesmashing shit, implant shit and all of that frauding is cope. Damn near part of the problem.

I somewhat get things like braces, or skincare. But they are way more ways to maxx yourself. The whole point is to be the best version of yourself. Not to be someone else entirely. Be careful, your addiction and insecurity of looking cute and shit is unhealthy, and surgery is not the solution to your happiness.

 

[Erik-Jón]

My goal is to save up AT LEAST $35k in the next 2.5 years then blow it all at once on surgery in nearly 3 fucking years.

Sounds utterly cucked but I have a job contract that I basically can't take long time off of to recover from brutal surgery.

I'm so fucking subhuman. Im literally boneless but I'm tall so at least I won't need LL.

My plan here is to fix my recession via bimax and genio. That will make me forward grown and fix my absolute comical circle face that my genetics gave me. The genio should help with the circularness as well hopefully.

I'm BONELESS though, so probably gonna need infraorbital and browridge implants... at this point a fucking lefort 3.

TO TOP IT ALL OFF im fucking balding at 21 just lol. im GONNA need probably a hair transplant in turkey im thinning to death at nw0.

this will all in theory make me human. if not i pray i have the guts to visit gandy.

inshallah.

Top tier genes

 

[othersitedown]

 

[crosshold]

I can think of many ways you could spend that $35,000 on yourself and being happier than you could ever imagine.

When you say you're incel, I am almost certain you are not deformed. Maybe you're ugly, in that case it's fine, you can always whoremax and trust me, it is just as fulfilling and satisfying if not more satisfying than dating women.

Androcentric societies always had great men that never even had relationships, but rather relied on cooming in prostitutes. Some of history's greatest figures actually were giga coomers who enjoyed having sex with prostitutes and preferred it to marriage because of it's convenience & accessibility (no jestermaxing, simping, etc). Read into Ancient Rome.

why are you on a LOOKSMAXXING site trying to convince a user out of looksmaxxing?

 

[crosshold]

similar position. i have like 7k saved. wouldve had 20k but crypto cucked me. anyway i just got a work from home job so im gonna be able to get surgery periodically cuz idc if im swollen af at home or whatever

 

[Deleted member 19152]

My goal is to save up AT LEAST $35k in the next 2.5 years then blow it all at once on surgery in nearly 3 fucking years.

Sounds utterly cucked but I have a job contract that I basically can't take long time off of to recover from brutal surgery.

I'm so fucking subhuman. Im literally boneless but I'm tall so at least I won't need LL.

My plan here is to fix my recession via bimax and genio. That will make me forward grown and fix my absolute comical circle face that my genetics gave me. The genio should help with the circularness as well hopefully.

I'm BONELESS though, so probably gonna need infraorbital and browridge implants... at this point a fucking lefort 3.

TO TOP IT ALL OFF im fucking balding at 21 just lol. im GONNA need probably a hair transplant in turkey im thinning to death at nw0.

this will all in theory make me human. if not i pray i have the guts to visit gandy.

inshallah.

dont worry bro i will earn money and donate u in some time

 

[CtrlAltDelete]

why are you on a LOOKSMAXXING site trying to convince a user out of looksmaxxing?

I'm not convincing him out of looksmaxxing, I'm convincing him to not do surgeries that could fuck his life up.

Go read the horror stories that some patients had after DJS. Sure, you could say it was a "bad surgeon", "it's a minority, most people don't have problems", but in reality you always could be in the minority and have your life ruined because of a mistake.

You can looksmax in effective ways, and in the end surgerymaxxing really won't transform you to such great degree that your life will completely change. In most ways you are only getting a bit better, but still nowhere near the pre-conceived notions most users here have about how they will turn into Maher 2.0 after surgerymaxxing.

You can do softmaxxes and whoremax and live your entire life engaging in life affirming memories, traveling the world and being a degenerate coomer and party 24/7 if that's what you like.

 

[dreamcake1mo]

I'm not convincing him out of looksmaxxing, I'm convincing him to not do surgeries that could fuck his life up.

Go read the horror stories that some patients had after DJS. Sure, you could say it was a "bad surgeon", "it's a minority, most people don't have problems", but in reality you always could be in the minority and have your life ruined because of a mistake.

You can looksmax in effective ways, and in the end surgerymaxxing really won't transform you to such great degree that your life will completely change. In most ways you are only getting a bit better, but still nowhere near the pre-conceived notions most users here have about how they will turn into Maher 2.0 after surgerymaxxing.

You can do softmaxxes and whoremax and live your entire life engaging in life affirming memories, traveling the world and being a degenerate coomer and party 24/7 if that's what you like.

+

This is good advice. For example, look at what happened to james. Even if hes trolling, its still a story to tell about the dangers of surgery. Telling people to be responsible is the way to go. A lot of people will cheer unhealthy behaviors or mentality's until it gets real, then next thing you know it their the butt end of the joke.

 

[CtrlAltDelete]

+

This is good advice. For example, look at what happened to james. Even if hes trolling, its still a story to tell about the dangers of surgery. Telling people to be responsible is the way to go. A lot of people will cheer unhealthy behaviors or mentality's until it gets real, next thing you know it your the butt end of the joke.

Yeah, plus this place is a fucking echo chamber. It’s always important to act as a voice of reason for these guys, because everyone here parrots the same ideas

 

[Deleted member 8988]

Hi native

 

[NarrowJaw]

not to put you down but before you go and blow so much money on surgery, check if you even have the potential to truly ascend. because chances are if you're really as recessed as you claim your are, bimax or implants can't really boost you to truly good looking levels because your entire cranium is most likely recessed. so keep your expectations realistic

 

[crosshold]

I'm not convincing him out of looksmaxxing, I'm convincing him to not do surgeries that could fuck his life up.

Go read the horror stories that some patients had after DJS. Sure, you could say it was a "bad surgeon", "it's a minority, most people don't have problems", but in reality you always could be in the minority and have your life ruined because of a mistake.

You can looksmax in effective ways, and in the end surgerymaxxing really won't transform you to such great degree that your life will completely change. In most ways you are only getting a bit better, but still nowhere near the pre-conceived notions most users here have about how they will turn into Maher 2.0 after surgerymaxxing.

You can do softmaxxes and whoremax and live your entire life engaging in life affirming memories, traveling the world and being a degenerate coomer and party 24/7 if that's what you like.

but of course youre gonna see mostly horror stories online. these surgeries have a great success rate generally. even normies get them

 

[Deleted member 17244]

blackpilled surgeons dont exist jfl

at the blackpilled surgeons NOT cheap. but hopefully doable enough. something like 20k.

 

[Blackgymmax]

nah man trust me im not able to cope. tried it all but being good looking and doing ANYTHING is the meaning of life. doing anything whilst not being mogger is literally just cope for not fulfilling the meaning of life. tried coping but i see right through it and know im just coping. only being good looking is the solution to being ugly, it's all cope. there is no happiness if you are ugly, just endless cope.

If you're that ugly you'll probably just end up being 6/10 after all this stuff. Mogger is probably out of the question

 

[Deleted member 19317]

not to put you down but before you go and blow so much money on surgery, check if you even have the potential to truly ascend. because chances are if you're really as recessed as you claim your are, bimax or implants can't really boost you to truly good looking levels because your entire cranium is most likely recessed. so keep your expectations realistic

yeah but dude think about it logically, if you are LITERALLY recessed, is moving your jaw FORWARD really gonna fuck you up? it's just an ascension

 

[CtrlAltDelete]

but of course youre gonna see mostly horror stories online. these surgeries have a great success rate generally. even normies get them

DJS can fuck you up if it goes wrong, and there’s really no telling how your body will deal with nerves being stretched. I’m all for regular normie surgeries but DJS truly has significant risks, plus you could be the one on the other end writing a horror story JFL. Don’t ever think you can be safe man, lots of people see “95% success rate” on surgeries and think they wouldn’t be part of the 5% that gets butchered.

 

[Deleted member 19317]

DJS can fuck you up if it goes wrong, and there’s really no telling how your body will deal with nerves being stretched. I’m all for regular normie surgeries but DJS truly has significant risks, plus you could be the one on the other end writing a horror story JFL. Don’t ever think you can be safe man, lots of people see “95% success rate” on surgeries and think they wouldn’t be part of the 5% that gets butchered.

what's the alternative nigger? staying recessed?

 

[CtrlAltDelete]

what's the alternative nigger? staying recessed?

I'd rather stay recessed than risk facial paralysis but that's just me.

 

[ItsOver999]

I'd rather stay recessed than risk facial paralysis but that's just me.

Yeah cuz youre the dumbest fucking nigger here holy fuck, op looks like guy on left retard. Why would he care if he cant feel his face when at least he wont die a virgin. God youre probably anfucking liberal thats how retarded u sound

 

[CtrlAltDelete]

Yeah cuz youre the dumbest fucking nigger here holy fuck, op looks like guy on left retard. Why would he care if he cant feel his face when at least he wont die a virgin. God youre probably anfucking liberal thats how retarded u sound

Show ignored content

 

[reptiles]

Don't do any surgeries unless you absolutely have to is my recommendation. Don't waste money on surgeries you won't need trying to create mini halos, and understand the risk that comes with every surgery and know that you could be part of the minority that gets butched. With that being said, goodluck faggot.

Literally dumbest comment site the risks with surgery is within the 1 to 2 percent range and any surgery if done right can give some 1 massive change especially if he's as recessed as he claims to be.

 

[CtrlAltDelete]

Literally dumbest comment site the risks with surgery is within the 1 to 2 percent range and any surgery if done right can give some 1 massive change especially if he's as recessed as he claims to be.

Asking him to do his research and be careful about surgeries is dumb? This site is an echochamber. I'm not against surgery, I just think he needs to be very well educated on the risks associated with any surgery.

 

[reptiles]

Asking him to do his research and be careful about surgeries is dumb? This site is an echochamber. I'm not against surgery, I just think he needs to be very well educated on the risks associated with any surgery.

It's 1 to 3 percent man the risks are very bloody low but telling some 1 to be anti surgery is part of the societal problem when less people do something it artificially raises the price of it because it becomes scarce the more a society does something the cheaper it becomes.

also I've seen miracles happening with surgery

 

[Deleted member 19896]

do you have a financial plan or is this pipe dream cope?

 

[Deleted member 19896]

It's 1 to 3 percent man the risks are very bloody low but telling some 1 to be anti surgery is part of the societal problem when less people do something it artificially raises the price of it because it becomes scarce the more a society does something the cheaper it becomes.

also I've seen miracles happening with surgery

The risks of NOT getting surgery are higher than getting surgery

 

[reptiles]

The risks of NOT getting surgery are higher than getting surgery

Fucking legit I wish norm fags would stop coping as a whole literally man most of society legit thinks looks aren't important in 2022 I CAN'T fathom it tbqh.

 

[CtrlAltDelete]

Fucking legit I wish norm fags would stop coping as a whole literally man most of society legit thinks looks aren't important in 2022 I CAN'T fathom it tbqh.

I don't think looks are unimportant but I don't think risking your health for aesthetics is a wise choice. This goes for all surgeries. I don't see anything wrong in what I'm saying.

Do whatever the fuck you want mate. Get whatever surgery you like. Just don't ruin your health in the name of aesthetics and think long-term.

 

[DoctorLooksmax]

Yeah cuz youre the dumbest fucking nigger here holy fuck, op looks like guy on left retard. Why would he care if he cant feel his face when at least he wont die a virgin. God youre probably anfucking liberal thats how retarded u sound

OP is a 6'4 MTN/HTN borderline just to provide some context to this thread

@CtrlAltDelete

 

[reptiles]

OP is a 6'4 MTN/HTN borderline just to provide some context to this thread

@CtrlAltDelete

Oh then ops advice makes sense NGL I thought he was ugly by the sense he was talking in this thread

 

[ItsOver999]

I don't think looks are unimportant but I don't think risking your health for aesthetics is a wise choice. This goes for all surgeries. I don't see anything wrong in what I'm saying.

Do whatever the fuck you want mate. Get whatever surgery you like. Just don't ruin your health in the name of aesthetics and think long-term.

Killing yourself because youre an ugly fucking incel is more unhealthy then whatever the surgery causes

 

[CtrlAltDelete]

Killing yourself because youre an ugly fucking incel is more unhealthy then whatever the surgery causes

If you really were that ugly looking you'd know there's no hope for you in looksmaxxing like a lot of users do on .is, and even if you were that ugly then you pretty much will not ascend with surgery to the level you imagine.

It's like a 4' 11" man who gets LL to be 5' 4". In the eyes of women he will always be a manlet, even though the jump from 4' 11" to 5' 4" is quite significant. There are many copes in this world that are worth living for that regardless of your looks, you'd be dumb not to indulge in them.

Most people are normies, even those who claim they're ugly here are probably normies. Deformed, hopeless cases are rare and even then, it's not worth roping over your looks because you can have sex in other means by whoremaxxing and finding more fulfilling ways to go about your life.

Remember: You only set your focus on one area of your life because you are severely lacking. You focus too much on aesthetics because you don't have sex. Once that's out of the window, you will realize that there's more to life than just sex.

Also learn not to be so black and white. I could tell you're a raging teenager just by the way you write your comments.

 

[Deleted member 17920]

how is genio a risky surgery what

 

[ItsOver999]

If you really were that ugly looking you'd know there's no hope for you in looksmaxxing like a lot of users do on .is, and even if you were that ugly then you pretty much will not ascend with surgery to the level you imagine.

It's like a 4' 11" man who gets LL to be 5' 4". In the eyes of women he will always be a manlet, even though the jump from 4' 11" to 5' 4" is quite significant. There are many copes in this world that are worth living for that regardless of your looks, you'd be dumb not to indulge in them.

Most people are normies, even those who claim they're ugly here are probably normies. Deformed, hopeless cases are rare and even then, it's not worth roping over your looks because you can have sex in other means by whoremaxxing and finding more fulfilling ways to go about your life.

Remember: You only set your focus on one area of your life because you are severely lacking. You focus too much on aesthetics because you don't have sex. Once that's out of the window, you will realize that there's more to life than just sex.

Also learn not to be so black and white. I could tell you're a raging teenager just by the way you write your comments.

Are you not able to see this picture? Its literally bimax. Are you telling me that there is 0% chance that the guy on the left was a virgin that wanted to kill himself and then are you telling me that the surgery didn't ascend him enough? I literally reported u for being a dumb nigger i literally wrote that as the reason

 

[Deleted member 19317]

how is genio a risky surgery what

It's the most risky of them all. It's worse than LL.

 

[Deleted member 19317]

Your mentality is similar to what a FTM would say. Like guy said above, its much more you can do for your validation with 35000. With surgery, the line is crossed when its something that isn't maxxing what you already have. Bonesmashing shit, implant shit and all of that frauding is cope. Damn near part of the problem.

I somewhat get things like braces, or skincare. But they are way more ways to maxx yourself. The whole point is to be the best version of yourself. Not to be someone else entirely. Be careful, your addiction and insecurity of looking cute and shit is unhealthy, and surgery is not the solution to your happiness.

actually caging at this autism. what nigger tier cope would i blow $35,000 on knowing that looks are everything in this life. none of it makes me happy. not cars, not travelling, not a cool watch, not clothing, not ANY OF IT.

all i want in life is simple: to be tall and good looking.

and i will do whatever it takes to have this. don't care about muh insecurity muh lack of happiness. no, i won't be insecure when im tall and good looking. there will be no possible way i can be. nor will i be coping either, i will just be fulfilling the meaning of life. and who gives a fuck about "healthy" when ur fucking recessed with a balding scalp im actually caging at ur cope right here. just admit it pal you aren't willing to crack ur fucking face open like a god damn watermelon and do what i am, im willing to do WHATEVER IT TAKES.

 

[dreamcake1mo]

actually caging at this autism. what nigger tier cope would i blow $35,000 on knowing that looks are everything in this life. none of it makes me happy. not cars, not travelling, not a cool watch, not clothing, not ANY OF IT.

all i want in life is simple: to be tall and good looking.

and i will do whatever it takes to have this. don't care about muh insecurity muh lack of happiness. no, i won't be insecure when im tall and good looking. there will be no possible way i can be. nor will i be coping either, i will just be fulfilling the meaning of life. and who gives a fuck about "healthy" when ur fucking recessed with a balding scalp im actually caging at ur cope right here. just admit it pal you aren't willing to crack ur fucking face open like a god damn watermelon and do what i am, im willing to do WHATEVER IT TAKES.

I do not have any signs of autism, but I do feel as if continuing this conversation with you may lower my IQ and lead me to develop signs of the spectrum.

Honestly, seeing this comment makes me realize its probably nothing anyone can say that can get you to realize or change from that path you are walking. Its not necessarily an evil path, but its completely idiotic. Believing that the meaning of life is "pretty looks" is really, really stupid.

If you think life is about looking good for validation because a bunch of roasties made you feel as if their beauty standards is all life is, then goodluck. I hate to break it to you, but you will never be what you are envisioning. And cntr alt delete is right. If you are really ugly no amount of surgery is going to make you chad. Even in the example photos, those guys ascended, but only to low tier normie levels at best. Maybe to you it would seem like a boost because you have validation and low t/low self esteem, but in everyone elses eyes its literally like going from normie to normie. A waste of time and money and probably an looksmin.

The best looksmax is done with minimal. Braces/teethwhitening, fasting (bf-), hair dye(stylemax), socialmedia max(preselection), etc.
Those 4 things alone can boost your smv past any surgery. But like i said, you suffer from a sort of strong delusion (mental illness) if your doing these things because you think life is all about looking good. Its not

 

[Deleted member 19317]

I do not have any signs of autism, but I do feel as if continuing this conversation with you may lower my IQ and lead me to develop signs of the spectrum.

Honestly, seeing this comment makes me realize its probably nothing anyone can say that can get you to realize or change from that path you are walking. Its not necessarily an evil path, but its completely idiotic. Believing that the meaning of life is "pretty looks" is really, really stupid.

If you think life is about looking good for validation because a bunch of roasties made you feel as if their beauty standards is all life is, then goodluck. I hate to break it to you, but you will never be what you are envisioning. And cntr alt delete is right. If you are really ugly no amount of surgery is going to make you chad. Even in the example photos, those guys ascended, but only to low tier normie levels at best. Maybe to you it would seem like a boost because you have validation and low t/low self esteem, but in everyone elses eyes its literally like going from normie to normie. A waste of time and money and probably an looksmin.

The best looksmax is done with minimal. Braces/teethwhitening, fasting (bf-), hair dye(stylemax), socialmedia max(preselection), etc.
Those 4 things alone can boost your smv past any surgery. But like i said, you suffer from a sort of strong delusion (mental illness) if your doing these things because you think life is all about looking good. Its not

dnr + ur just another guy i am walking a path to being unmoggable. keep coping.