Saving up for surgery and Dealing with Aging/Truthpill

[lookmaxxer998]

For most people who aren't rich, saving up for a legit surgeon takes time- maybe 3-4 years with all the overhead costs and contingency planning, etc (at least with European salaries). My question is how do people deal with:

1.) The ageing aspect. If you realize the truth at around 23 and spend let's say 3-4 years to save, you'll be around 26-27. Not only will life have passed you by bc you'll be on save mode, won't go out much, won't party much, won't go on any vacations etc. but on top of that it will be harder to access higher quality women (younger women). Is it really worth it to have your jaw broken and reattached, and implants drilled into you just to be someone's 15th choice?

2.) Once you learn the truth, you lose the naivety you once had- you'll know that women love you for the "superficial" stuff like how many mm of bone you have in a given direction. Not to mention the gaslighting society will put you through( stuff like "you're fine bro") and how vain they make you feel even if you're subpar looking. When you finally reach the breaking point and do the surgery, you will reach the "destination" but will the "destination" be the same?

 

[longjohnmong]

Is it really worth it to have your jaw broken and reattached, and implants drilled into you just to be someone's 15th choice?

yes

 

[Mrxshmallow]

For most people who aren't rich, saving up for a legit surgeon takes time- maybe 3-4 years with all the overhead costs and contingency planning, etc (at least with European salaries). My question is how do people deal with:

1.) The ageing aspect. If you realize the truth at around 23 and spend let's say 3-4 years to save, you'll be around 26-27. Not only will life have passed you by bc you'll be on save mode, won't go out much, won't party much, won't go on any vacations etc. but on top of that it will be harder to access higher quality women (younger women). Is it really worth it to have your jaw broken and reattached, and implants drilled into you just to be someone's 15th choice?

2.) Once you learn the truth, you lose the naivety you once had- you'll know that women love you for the "superficial" stuff like how many mm of bone you have in a given direction. Not to mention the gaslighting society will put you through( stuff like "you're fine bro") and how vain they make you feel even if you're subpar looking. When you finally reach the breaking point and do the surgery, you will reach the "destination" but will the "destination" be the same?

Just do it. Take action > regret.

Also you will get 30-40 year old woman in the future also, so don’t worry.

 

[lookmaxxer998]

yes

hahahahhahah fair enough

 

[lookmaxxer998]

Just do it. Take action > regret.

Also you will get 30-40 year old woman in the future also, so don’t worry.

I was talking in a hypothetical, but sure that's one way of looking at it

 

[Lefor3Laser]

For most people who aren't rich, saving up for a legit surgeon takes time- maybe 3-4 years with all the overhead costs and contingency planning, etc (at least with European salaries). My question is how do people deal with:

1.) The ageing aspect. If you realize the truth at around 23 and spend let's say 3-4 years to save, you'll be around 26-27. Not only will life have passed you by bc you'll be on save mode, won't go out much, won't party much, won't go on any vacations etc. but on top of that it will be harder to access higher quality women (younger women). Is it really worth it to have your jaw broken and reattached, and implants drilled into you just to be someone's 15th choice?

2.) Once you learn the truth, you lose the naivety you once had- you'll know that women love you for the "superficial" stuff like how many mm of bone you have in a given direction. Not to mention the gaslighting society will put you through( stuff like "you're fine bro") and how vain they make you feel even if you're subpar looking. When you finally reach the breaking point and do the surgery, you will reach the "destination" but will the "destination" be the same?

Idk, depends on wich surgeons you choose, you can get it cheaper or much more expensive depending on the surgeon.

I don't think much about the age pill even tho i am 19 but it's better to work from now and save up rather than do nothing and regret it.

 

[lookmaxxer998]

Idk, depends on wich surgeons you choose, you can get it cheaper or much more expensive depending on the surgeon.

I don't think much about the age pill even tho i am 19 but it's better to work from now and save up rather than do nothing and regret it.

Yea but 19 is a really good age to start saving. At most you’ll be 21/22 which is still in your prime and you’ll get prime women from hardmaxing. Age pill is only brutal for guys who realize stuff in early/mid 20s

 

[Acquiescence]

Yup, if you need multiple extensive surgeries it’s over

You will end up wageslaving your prime away.

You will watch yourself morph into a mentally scarred, abused dog, blackpilled pessimist who’s perpetually stuck in the past

You will need to simultaneously focus heavily on anti-agemaxxing + agefrauding to stand a chance post surgery among all the newest gen youthful Chads

You will be financially set back for life

You will be discouraged and gaslit by friends, family, peers, society, and even some members of this community at every step of the way

And you’ll have very limited time and ability to enjoy your new looks afterwards (IF the surgeries work) because not only are you rapidly approaching irrevocable oldceldom, you’re also still working full time + mentally damaged as aforementioned

And yet, despite it all, this path is STILL a superior alternative to rotting the rest of your days away, alone and LDARing forever, or becoming an oofy doofy beta bux. At least, it is to me. Because I refuse to continue living as a LTN while knowing just how good the HTN+ of this world have it, without having at least tried escaping this cursed fate via the most direct solution currently available (hardmaxxing)

And this imo is the most fundamental essence of

To truly have it good in this life, you need to be born into it (looks, health, wealth, time). If you lack even just one of these things, it’s nothing but a downward spiral of diminishing returns and hard compromises in trying to overcome the deficit

 

[Liv2109]

Yea but 19 is a really good age to start saving. At most you’ll be 21/22 which is still in your prime and you’ll get prime women from hardmaxing. Age pill is only brutal for guys who realize stuff in early/mid 20s

Yea but 19 is a really good age to start saving. At most you’ll be 21/22 which is still in your prime and you’ll get prime women from hardmaxing. Age pill is only brutal for guys who realize stuff in early/mid 20s

Why shouldn't you get prime women at 30?

You just have to make sure you don't look like an old bag + take care of your career

 

[latetothegame]

Leverage exchange rates to lessen the time spent saving.

On the destination - it's not the same, it's not a metamorphosis-like transformation, where you emerge from surgery and post-op healing a confident, charismatic head-turner. The years of being passed over and neglected in social situations have left their mark.

What it does, however, is set up your future years for less of that to happen, thus creating better life experiences. These social, life experiences, over time will improve your mental state, which in turn further the richness of the experiences you will have in life. Ouroboros style.

Imagine a life experience where you aren't consumed by self-consciousness. That's what I feel many on the forum are striving for.

 

[Snicket]

Yup, if you need multiple extensive surgeries it’s over

You will end up wageslaving your prime away.

You will watch yourself morph into a mentally scarred, abused dog, blackpilled pessimist who’s perpetually stuck in the past

You will need to simultaneously focus heavily on anti-agemaxxing + agefrauding to stand a chance post surgery among all the newest gen youthful Chads

You will be financially set back for life

You will be discouraged and gaslit by friends, family, peers, society, and even some members of this community at every step of the way

And you’ll have very limited time and ability to enjoy your new looks afterwards (IF the surgeries work) because not only are you rapidly approaching irrevocable oldceldom, you’re also still working full time + mentally damaged as aforementioned

And yet, despite it all, this path is STILL a superior alternative to rotting the rest of your days away, alone and LDARing forever, or becoming an oofy doofy beta bux. At least, it is to me. Because I refuse to continue living as a LTN while knowing just how good the HTN+ of this world have it, without having at least tried escaping this cursed fate via the most direct solution currently available (hardmaxxing)

And this imo is the most fundamental essence of

To truly have it good in this life, you need to be born into it (looks, health, wealth, time). If you lack even just one of these things, it’s nothing but a downward spiral of diminishing returns and hard compromises in trying to overcome the deficit

There’s a lot of truth in this sadly.

People in this forum also drastically overrate the extent to which surgeries can improve looks - barring the most invasive surgeries which 99%+ of surgeons outright refuse to do.

I think the key really is balance. Obtaining some degree of improvement and knowing when to walk away is important. Otherwise, you get stuck in a never ending rabbit hole of diminishing returns and compromises at the expense of your youth.

 

[Xx_gloomy_bison_xX]

No it is never late, I saw plenty 20-25 years old foids hooking up with 30-35 years old dudes because they are facially attractive and tall!

You either ascend and become attractive enough to be noticed by women or you simply become an ugly non-existent sub-5 that women will reject because "no spark" or "natural connection"

I mean if you chose to work on your personality instead of your surgeries you may have a chance to wife up a left-over roastie with 100+ body count. Your wife's chad ex situationship will know more about your wife's body than you do and maybe you can learn some tips about what your well-used wife likes in bed from them

 

[Xx_gloomy_bison_xX]

There’s a lot of truth in this sadly.

People in this forum also drastically overrate the extent to which surgeries can improve looks - barring the most invasive surgeries which 99%+ of surgeons outright refuse to do.

I think the key really is balance. Obtaining some degree of improvement and knowing when to walk away is important. Otherwise, you get stuck in a never ending rabbit hole of diminishing returns and compromises at the expense of your youth.

nobody cares about those two digit IQ surgeons who refuse to operate. Surgeries can drastically change the way you look if performed by someone who understand aesthetics and who is willing to take risks. If he goes to "board certified" idiots, doctors will probably just go with fillers because they are far too incompetent to perform osteotomies and don't want to risk botches.... Muh human body is too complex muh we don't know how tissue will react muh this and that....They only come up with excuses...Instead OP should save and go with giants to Turkey where he can even get Lefort 3

 

[Xx_gloomy_bison_xX]

For most people who aren't rich, saving up for a legit surgeon takes time- maybe 3-4 years with all the overhead costs and contingency planning, etc (at least with European salaries). My question is how do people deal with:

1.) The ageing aspect. If you realize the truth at around 23 and spend let's say 3-4 years to save, you'll be around 26-27. Not only will life have passed you by bc you'll be on save mode, won't go out much, won't party much, won't go on any vacations etc. but on top of that it will be harder to access higher quality women (younger women). Is it really worth it to have your jaw broken and reattached, and implants drilled into you just to be someone's 15th choice?

2.) Once you learn the truth, you lose the naivety you once had- you'll know that women love you for the "superficial" stuff like how many mm of bone you have in a given direction. Not to mention the gaslighting society will put you through( stuff like "you're fine bro") and how vain they make you feel even if you're subpar looking. When you finally reach the breaking point and do the surgery, you will reach the "destination" but will the "destination" be the same?

no they like you for your "personality" sorry I meant "confidence"

 

[Xx_gloomy_bison_xX]

Yup, if you need multiple extensive surgeries it’s over

You will end up wageslaving your prime away.

You will watch yourself morph into a mentally scarred, abused dog, blackpilled pessimist who’s perpetually stuck in the past

You will need to simultaneously focus heavily on anti-agemaxxing + agefrauding to stand a chance post surgery among all the newest gen youthful Chads

You will be financially set back for life

You will be discouraged and gaslit by friends, family, peers, society, and even some members of this community at every step of the way

And you’ll have very limited time and ability to enjoy your new looks afterwards (IF the surgeries work) because not only are you rapidly approaching irrevocable oldceldom, you’re also still working full time + mentally damaged as aforementioned

And yet, despite it all, this path is STILL a superior alternative to rotting the rest of your days away, alone and LDARing forever, or becoming an oofy doofy beta bux. At least, it is to me. Because I refuse to continue living as a LTN while knowing just how good the HTN+ of this world have it, without having at least tried escaping this cursed fate via the most direct solution currently available (hardmaxxing)

And this imo is the most fundamental essence of

To truly have it good in this life, you need to be born into it (looks, health, wealth, time). If you lack even just one of these things, it’s nothing but a downward spiral of diminishing returns and hard compromises in trying to overcome the deficit

yes if you are ugly or short it is almost always over for you but he can always get surgeries to ascend. Nature didn't want him to enjoy sex and attention, these are privileges reserved only for chads. He is genetically not meant to be desirable and he is not supposed to breed Stacies.

However, there are tons of people getting surgeries (Lefort, Canthoplasty. Limb Lengthening etc...) and seeing incredible results. It is worth trying and dying in this battle than just accepting ultimate defeat. Before LDAR or Rope, one must exhaust all options

 

[Foreverbrad]

Yup, if you need multiple extensive surgeries it’s over

You will end up wageslaving your prime away.

You will watch yourself morph into a mentally scarred, abused dog, blackpilled pessimist who’s perpetually stuck in the past

You will need to simultaneously focus heavily on anti-agemaxxing + agefrauding to stand a chance post surgery among all the newest gen youthful Chads

You will be financially set back for life

You will be discouraged and gaslit by friends, family, peers, society, and even some members of this community at every step of the way

And you’ll have very limited time and ability to enjoy your new looks afterwards (IF the surgeries work) because not only are you rapidly approaching irrevocable oldceldom, you’re also still working full time + mentally damaged as aforementioned

And yet, despite it all, this path is STILL a superior alternative to rotting the rest of your days away, alone and LDARing forever, or becoming an oofy doofy beta bux. At least, it is to me. Because I refuse to continue living as a LTN while knowing just how good the HTN+ of this world have it, without having at least tried escaping this cursed fate via the most direct solution currently available (hardmaxxing)

And this imo is the most fundamental essence of

To truly have it good in this life, you need to be born into it (looks, health, wealth, time). If you lack even just one of these things, it’s nothing but a downward spiral of diminishing returns and hard compromises in trying to overcome the deficit

Over for me getting Trimax at 32. It’s exactly as you’ve described.

£30k doesn’t do much toward early retirement anyway, I figure it’s worth the gamble. If not, I’ll just wageslave some more and move to phillipines where there is no oldcel issue - unless they’ve ruined that too by then.

 

[Snicket]

nobody cares about those two digit IQ surgeons who refuse to operate. Surgeries can drastically change the way you look if performed by someone who understand aesthetics and who is willing to take risks. If he goes to "board certified" idiots, doctors will probably just go with fillers because they are far too incompetent to perform osteotomies and don't want to risk botches.... Muh human body is too complex muh we don't know how tissue will react muh this and that....They only come up with excuses...Instead OP should save and go with giants to Turkey where he can even get Lefort 3

LF2/3 are no silver bullet if you actually look at befores and afters. I think if you understood what the procedure actually entailed, you’d be slightly more reticent about it. Giants does implants - he is not a surgeon.

 

[Xx_gloomy_bison_xX]

LF2/3 are no silver bullet if you actually look at befores and afters. I think if you understood what the procedure actually entailed, you’d be slightly more reticent about it. Giants does implants - he is not a surgeon.

Yes and No. Yes he is not the one cutting your face and No he does planning of the surgeries not the surgeons

 

[Snicket]

Yes and No. Yes he is not the one cutting your face and No he does planning of the surgeries not the surgeons

I know he works in partnership with Celal in Turkey but surely the surgeon actually plans and executes the osteotomy?

 

[Xx_gloomy_bison_xX]

I know he works in partnership with Celal in Turkey but surely the surgeon actually plans and executes the osteotomy?

Go to Celal and Buraks IG pages, Giants literally post files of planning on the wall of surgery room to showcase how it will be done. Sure he might be getting opinions but he is the one with decent understanding of aesthetic. Surgeons are there to obey and do the grunt work

 

[Snicket]

Go to Celal and Buraks IG pages, Giants literally post files of planning on the wall of surgery room to showcase how it will be done. Sure he might be getting opinions but he is the one with decent understanding of aesthetic.

The plans just feature Giant’s implants. You can’t conclude that Giant actually plans the surgeries from them. Do we have any LF2 before and afters from Celal unblurred?

Surgeons are there to obey and do the grunt work

This isn’t true. Surgeons usually decide on the cut and movements themselves.

 

[ScramFranklin]

I got double jaw surgery in my 30’s and I’m very glad I did. Increased my attractiveness a lot. Would it have been better if I did it at age 20? Sure, but i didn’t, so no point in worrying about it

It’s like retirement. Would I rather have 5 mil in today’s dollars at 55 rather than 65? Yes, and to get there I would have needed to invest more a decade ago. But that time has passed. So I’m investing now to have a nice retirement when I’m 65, I’m not going to just give up

 

[lookmaxxer998]

Yup, if you need multiple extensive surgeries it’s over

You will end up wageslaving your prime away.

You will watch yourself morph into a mentally scarred, abused dog, blackpilled pessimist who’s perpetually stuck in the past

You will need to simultaneously focus heavily on anti-agemaxxing + agefrauding to stand a chance post surgery among all the newest gen youthful Chads

You will be financially set back for life

You will be discouraged and gaslit by friends, family, peers, society, and even some members of this community at every step of the way

And you’ll have very limited time and ability to enjoy your new looks afterwards (IF the surgeries work) because not only are you rapidly approaching irrevocable oldceldom, you’re also still working full time + mentally damaged as aforementioned

And yet, despite it all, this path is STILL a superior alternative to rotting the rest of your days away, alone and LDARing forever, or becoming an oofy doofy beta bux. At least, it is to me. Because I refuse to continue living as a LTN while knowing just how good the HTN+ of this world have it, without having at least tried escaping this cursed fate via the most direct solution currently available (hardmaxxing)

And this imo is the most fundamental essence of

To truly have it good in this life, you need to be born into it (looks, health, wealth, time). If you lack even just one of these things, it’s nothing but a downward spiral of diminishing returns and hard compromises in trying to overcome the deficit

Extremely based and real take- I can sense you've learned about the BP outside of just this forum. Question for you- let's say that you could get to chad level with hardmaxing and you had the option to settle down with a stacy, would you do it? Would you pass down your genes anyway and hope that your stacy partner's genes override yours?

 

[lookmaxxer998]

nobody cares about those two digit IQ surgeons who refuse to operate. Surgeries can drastically change the way you look if performed by someone who understand aesthetics and who is willing to take risks. If he goes to "board certified" idiots, doctors will probably just go with fillers because they are far too incompetent to perform osteotomies and don't want to risk botches.... Muh human body is too complex muh we don't know how tissue will react muh this and that....They only come up with excuses...Instead OP should save and go with giants to Turkey where he can even get Lefort 3

Just understand that there is more than what meets the eye. They also have things go wrong but it's often not advertised. While I don't like fillers either, most surgeons in Italy that this forum praises, chose to do implants over high cut leforts bc they know that unless it's severe, it's a dumb idea to do those things.

 

[lookmaxxer998]

Leverage exchange rates to lessen the time spent saving.

On the destination - it's not the same, it's not a metamorphosis-like transformation, where you emerge from surgery and post-op healing a confident, charismatic head-turner. The years of being passed over and neglected in social situations have left their mark.

What it does, however, is set up your future years for less of that to happen, thus creating better life experiences. These social, life experiences, over time will improve your mental state, which in turn further the richness of the experiences you will have in life. Ouroboros style.

Imagine a life experience where you aren't consumed by self-consciousness. That's what I feel many on the forum are striving for.

Life has an element of causality-past events influence future and current behaviour. One way to think is to not be overly philosophical and just "get on with life" and the other is to ponder on what life could have been. Perhaps I do too much of the latter.

If A is a natural-born chad, B is a transformed HTN through surgery and C is a sub 5, I agree A>B>C. But often, B>C is emphasized while A>B is forgotten, likely bc considering A>B is uncomfortable and interferes with the human coping mechanism.

 

[Acquiescence]

Extremely based and real take- I can sense you've learned about the BP outside of just this forum. Question for you- let's say that you could get to chad level with hardmaxing and you had the option to settle down with a stacy, would you do it? Would you pass down your genes anyway and hope that your stacy partner's genes override yours?

LTR with Stacy? Sure, if there was mutual genuine attraction. I’d just make it a point to constantly remind myself that it could end at any time for any reason, and to not get too invested

Kids? Hard no

 

[lookmaxxer998]

LTR with Stacy? Sure, if there was mutual genuine attraction. I’d just make it a point to constantly remind myself that it could end at any time for any reason, and to not get too invested

Kids? Hard no

How would you explain to her that you don't want kids though? Like for example if someone was very unattractive (this isn't my case tbh), imagine someone like mitten squad. There is no way he could show a picture of himself and not have her disgusted. Would you raise another guy's child? Feels a bit beta tbh

 

[Acquiescence]

How would you explain to her that you don't want kids though? Like for example if someone was very unattractive (this isn't my case tbh), imagine someone like mitten squad. There is no way he could show a picture of himself and not have her disgusted. Would you raise another guy's child? Feels a bit beta tbh

I wouldn’t explain myself. And no I would never raise anyone else’s kids either

 

[latetothegame]

Life has an element of causality-past events influence future and current behaviour. One way to think is to not be overly philosophical and just "get on with life" and the other is to ponder on what life could have been. Perhaps I do too much of the latter.

If A is a natural-born chad, B is a transformed HTN through surgery and C is a sub 5, I agree A>B>C. But often, B>C is emphasized while A>B is forgotten, likely bc considering A>B is uncomfortable and interferes with the human coping mechanism.

Regarding the A>B vs B>C considerations, I guess another thing to consider would be:

Are there diminishing returns?
Is the line graph of 'life fulfillment/richness of experience vs. 0-10 rating' a logarithmic curve, or a straight one, or somewhere in between? Maybe this determination has already been done but I haven't seen that meta-analysis, I guess.

But even so, perhaps this kind of rumination is just pointless - how far can one 'climb the slope of that line', etc. etc.

 

[lookmaxxer998]

Regarding the A>B vs B>C considerations, I guess another thing to consider would be:

Are there diminishing returns?
Is the line graph of 'life fulfillment/richness of experience vs. 0-10 rating' a logarithmic curve, or a straight one, or somewhere in between? Maybe this determination has already been done but I haven't seen that meta-analysis, I guess.

But even so, perhaps this kind of rumination is just pointless - how far can one 'climb the slope of that line', etc. etc.

The importance of looks is exponential. I think this was shown in the UChicago and MIT study. The top percent of men get disproportionately more likes than even the "good looking" men. It's one thing to succeed in dating but another to get modelling contracts, be an untalented actor but get hired anyway, have women pay for (like they did for Alain Delon), and have women overlook your blatantly shitty behaviour. The question is, can one reach A from B using surgery? The answer is mostly not. It's hard to change a face like people do in morphs: the soft tissue, nerves, etc. need to comply with their new state and there is only so much you can move things. Is it really worth risking something good for something great? Honestly, maybe not. Doing Excess surgeries can take you from B back to C rather than from B to A.

 

[latetothegame]

The importance of looks is exponential. I think this was shown in the UChicago and MIT study. The top percent of men get disproportionately more likes than even the "good looking" men. It's one thing to succeed in dating but another to get modelling contracts, be an untalented actor but get hired anyway, have women pay for (like they did for Alain Delon), and have women overlook your blatantly shitty behaviour. The question is, can one reach A from B using surgery? The answer is mostly not. It's hard to change a face like people do in morphs: the soft tissue, nerves, etc. need to comply with their new state and there is only so much you can move things. Is it really worth risking something good for something great? Honestly, maybe not. Doing Excess surgeries can take you from B back to C rather than from B to A.

https://home.uchicago.edu/~hortacsu/onlinedating.pdf

This, right? Who needs the forum's rhetoric when you can just read this, jesus. Thanks for pointing me to it.

 

[lookmaxxer998]

https://home.uchicago.edu/~hortacsu/onlinedating.pdf

This, right? Who needs the forum's rhetoric when you can just read this, jesus. Thanks for pointing me to it.

Yeah, it mentions the “superstar effect” which is only present for men not women (I think). This is also the study the discussed how much height and ethnicity “cost” you. There are tables at the end of the study.

 

[FrenchareMedCucks]

you have time oldcel isn't until 43+

Remember Amnesia is like 37 and larps as 23

I'm 33 and look the same I did at 25

I saved money for the last 4 years to get trimax + implants , being poorcel working part time as I failed College 2 times because I was depressed and Incel when I was 20-25

The hardest part is studyceling and wageslaving while being incel in the process

 

[HostSamurai]

Feeling this really hard, studycelling at the moment and trying to get a good job to save up for surgeries. But I know for a fact girls my generation are going to be roasties soon. Same age and KHHV.

 

[chrishell]

Imagine a life experience where you aren't consumed by self-consciousness. That's what I feel many on the forum are striving for.

I agree. I had jaw surgery and had a great result. I hated my profile my entire life and then suddenly the worry vanished. Regardless of whatever interpersonal/romantic gains I will get from this surgery that effect alone totally transformed my everyday mental state. I can't describe it, it's like I perceive everything in general in a different light, kind of like when I was a kid, much less permanent low-level anxiety or something. A big part of it might have been because it cured my sleep apnea and got rid of insomnia and brain fog though Lol.

 

[bimaxmaxxer]

I'm 30 and found out about this bimax/implant stuff last year and how much you actually can improve your face. Life is all about ascension and for me this is one of the last missing tools for a decent life, a good looking face. Specially a pessimist should do everything possible to avoid having a more miserable time as they age.

 

[lookmaxxer998]

I'm 30 and found out about this bimax/implant stuff last year and how much you actually can improve your face. Life is all about ascension and for me this is one of the last missing tools for a decent life, a good looking face. Specially a pessimist should do everything possible to avoid having a more miserable time as they age.

Ok, but society is going to expect you to get married soon. Sure, you can defy that expectation and not give a fuck, but every time you go to nightclubs or are dating a younger woman, people will assume you're doing it for manipulative reasons ( a usual trope women use to shame men for choosing younger women), even though it's often bc younger women are more physically attractive and it has nothing to do with the whole "ohhh brother manipulation".

This is what I mean- you'll have your teeth rearranged (for some people teeth extractions as well), then you'll have your jaw broken, you'll have to go through a lot of pain/discomfort, you'll have to eat soft foods for 6 weeks, you'll have to go through the depressive recovery, you'll have to get pieces of plastic drilled into your face, and you'll have to give up 2 years of your life ( you aren't going to look flattering with the braces and decompensated teeth).

All this just to end up with your post-prime looks match? If you're truly sub5, like you suffer from medical issues bc of your recessed jaw, or your face is so bad that people don't even treat you well in social situations outside of dating, then maybe I agree that jaw surgery ( and other surgeries) are worth it at all ages. But if you're a normie guy who's been fked over bc of looks and you go through the wringer just to settle for your post-prime looksmatch after all that pain, then I don't think it's worth it. Why should you give them something better than what they deserve?

Maybe only I hold this view (based on the responses). I know that a 30 y/o guy is just not going to admit this. They'd rather just tell them "man what has happened has happened, I just wanna make the best of the time I have left", which is true I guess- I don't have anything against it. There is no point dwelling on what should have happened, but in general there should be a level of urgency and realization that guys need to act fast to make the most out of the surgeries. This whole "ohhh brother the best days are yet to come" rhetoric needs to stop.

 

[bimaxmaxxer]

I know that a 30 y/o guy is just not going to admit this.

What exactly am I not gonna "admit"?

 

[Lefor3Laser]

The importance of looks is exponential. I think this was shown in the UChicago and MIT study. The top percent of men get disproportionately more likes than even the "good looking" men. It's one thing to succeed in dating but another to get modelling contracts, be an untalented actor but get hired anyway, have women pay for (like they did for Alain Delon), and have women overlook your blatantly shitty behaviour. The question is, can one reach A from B using surgery? The answer is mostly not. It's hard to change a face like people do in morphs: the soft tissue, nerves, etc. need to comply with their new state and there is only so much you can move things. Is it really worth risking something good for something great? Honestly, maybe not. Doing Excess surgeries can take you from B back to C rather than from B to A.

You can't achieve a face that's perfect, but it is worth the stress to improve, will i look like the morphs?, no but if they are realistic then you can be, i will never understand the people who think that surgeries are easy and safe, there is always a risk of botch and even death, many people whom get implants and end uncanny/botched don't have any realistic expectation, harmony and appeal is the key, if it's mixed with psl then you are set up for good, work with what you have, never create something from nothingness.

Everything you said is right and i respect that.

 

[lookmaxxer998]

What exactly am I not gonna "admit"?

That it isn't as good to do a surgery in 30s as it is in 20s.

 

[Snicket]

That it isn't as good to do a surgery in 30s as it is in 20s.

This is correct. You have to balance out the gains vs time investment.

This trade-off becomes steeper as you age since time is more scarce and therefore worth more while the gains are devalued by aging.

There is no one size fits all. It comes down to a personal calculation - which I think a lot of young people here also get wrong as well.

The truth is there are certain milestones which you're meant to reach at specific periods of your life.
Trying to retrospectively capture these milestones will leave a lot of older people unfulfilled.

The thing is, as you get older, you start to regret not doing things more than actually doing something!

Jaw surgery isn't as bad as you're describing though. It has a very good risk profile and swelling goes down to minimal levels within 3 weeks. Braces aren't that bad. No-one really cares.

 

[Deleted member 124498]

For most people who aren't rich, saving up for a legit surgeon takes time- maybe 3-4 years with all the overhead costs and contingency planning, etc (at least with European salaries). My question is how do people deal with:

1.) The ageing aspect. If you realize the truth at around 23 and spend let's say 3-4 years to save, you'll be around 26-27. Not only will life have passed you by bc you'll be on save mode, won't go out much, won't party much, won't go on any vacations etc. but on top of that it will be harder to access higher quality women (younger women). Is it really worth it to have your jaw broken and reattached, and implants drilled into you just to be someone's 15th choice?

2.) Once you learn the truth, you lose the naivety you once had- you'll know that women love you for the "superficial" stuff like how many mm of bone you have in a given direction. Not to mention the gaslighting society will put you through( stuff like "you're fine bro") and how vain they make you feel even if you're subpar looking. When you finally reach the breaking point and do the surgery, you will reach the "destination" but will the "destination" be the same?

This issue goes beyond lookism.

 

[lookmaxxer998]

This is correct. You have to balance out the gains vs time investment.

This trade-off becomes steeper as you age since time is more scarce and therefore worth more while the gains are devalued by aging.

There is no one size fits all. It comes down to a personal calculation - which I think a lot of young people here also get wrong as well.

The truth is there are certain milestones which you're meant to reach at specific periods of your life.
Trying to retrospectively capture these milestones will leave a lot of older people unfulfilled.

The thing is, as you get older, you start to regret not doing things more than actually doing something!

Jaw surgery isn't as bad as you're describing though. It has a very good risk profile and swelling goes down to minimal levels within 3 weeks. Braces aren't that bad. No-one really cares.

Idk man I’ve seen some horrible stories and long term side effects of jaw surgery. And braces are ok (it’s the extractions that are painful). 100% agree with the milestones stuff. You can’t fill up a void simply by making up for it later in life. I can’t personally cope and tell myself “oh I was just waiting for the right person”. And I’ve had braces before- sure it’s not bad pain wise but it does get noticed if you are an adult. Maybe I guess unless you wear Invisalign.

 

[Snicket]

Idk man I’ve seen some horrible stories and long term side effects of jaw surgery.

Complications are incredibly rare. People always judge by extreme edge cases. Just look up the complication rate in academic papers. It’s incredibly well documented. This surgery has been done for 100 years and is very safe.

100% agree with the milestones stuff. You can’t fill up a void simply by making up for it later in life. I can’t personally cope and tell myself “oh I was just waiting for the right person”.

Obviously, the benefits vs costs of surgery become increasingly worse as you age, so it’s a calculation that each individual has to make. Some older people can still benefit from it and enjoy a better quality of life without trying to recapture their youth.

And I’ve had braces before- sure it’s not bad pain wise but it does get noticed if you are an adult. Maybe I guess unless you wear Invisalign.

They get noticed sure but I don’t think it’s some big social stigma or negative. If the decompensation of the teeth looks really bad, then it’s safe to say that you actually need the surgery.

Too many here get surgeries they don’t need, not realizing that surgery is far more effective at correcting problems than creating attractive features.

It’s these situations imo where people in their early 30s still stand to benefit.

 

[lookmaxxer998]

Complications are incredibly rare. People always judge by extreme edge cases. Just look up the complication rate in academic papers. It’s incredibly well documented. This surgery has been done for 100 years and is very safe.

Obviously, the benefits vs costs of surgery become increasingly worse as you age, so it’s a calculation that each individual has to make. Some older people can still benefit from it and enjoy a better quality of life without trying to recapture their youth.

They get noticed sure but I don’t think it’s some big social stigma or negative. If the decompensation of the teeth looks really bad, then it’s safe to say that you actually need the surgery.

Too many here get surgeries they don’t need, not realizing that surgery is far more effective at correcting problems than creating attractive features.

It’s these situations imo where people in their early 30s still stand to benefit.

issue is that frank tufano thought the same thing and he turned out to be one of few who got fked up by surgery. And once you get screwed, it’s hard to recover from (yes, it’s a different surgery with different complication profile but the point still stands). Nerve damage stats are also under reported bc most people think they have at least 80% function back so it’s liveable. Not to mention that the chances of having a permanently runny nose from maxilla advancement is 5-10% which is high and these things can’t always be reversed.

As for the braces, it’s more something you get asked about rather than judged on. Personally, wouldn’t want to wear them and it will feel strange going on nights out with them. But it’s not the biggest hurdle.

 

[Snicket]

issue is that frank tufano thought the same thing and he turned out to be one of few who got fked up by surgery. And once you get screwed, it’s hard to recover from (yes, it’s a different surgery with different complication profile but the point still stands).

Orbital decompression is a completely different ball park so it's not a fair comparison. There is a high complication rate according to all available literature.
Besides, Taban expressly advised Frank not to do it. He ignored professional advice and went ahead with it anyway.

Nerve damage stats are also under reported bc most people think they have at least 80% function back so it’s liveable. Not to mention that the chances of having a permanently runny nose from maxilla advancement is 5-10% which is high and these things can’t always be reversed.

There's 100 years of precedent. All the evidence tells us that it's an incredibly safe procedure. Your claim about underreported cases is unsubstantiated and you're just making up percentages. We have extensive surveys and study groups from decades reporting incredibly low complication rates. You can get a rhinoplasty to fix the nose if this is a problem. Most people with recessed maxilla actually have a depressed nasal tip to it's usually a positive change.

As for the braces, it’s more something you get asked about rather than judged on. Personally, wouldn’t want to wear them and it will feel strange going on nights out with them. But it’s not the biggest hurdle.

You ruminate too much about things. If you're worried about wearing braces, then I don't know what to say. It sounds like you're looking for reasons not to do something. Fair enough but then what's the point of being on a looksmax forum?

 

[lookmaxxer998]

Orbital decompression is a completely different ball park so it's not a fair comparison. There is a high complication rate according to all available literature.
Besides, Taban expressly advised Frank not to do it. He ignored professional advice and went ahead with it anyway.


There's 100 years of precedent. All the evidence tells us that it's an incredibly safe procedure. Your claim about underreported cases is unsubstantiated and you're just making up percentages. We have extensive surveys and study groups from decades reporting incredibly low complication rates. You can get a rhinoplasty to fix the nose if this is a problem. Most people with recessed maxilla actually have a depressed nasal tip to it's usually a positive change.

You ruminate too much about things. If you're worried about wearing braces, then I don't know what to say. It sounds like you're looking for reasons not to do something. Fair enough but then what's the point of being on a looksmax forum?

I'm going off the stats I was given by the last surgeon I saw. But I doubt it's far off because all the surgeons this forum praises ( the ones in Italy) express a dislike to do higher cut leforts due to complications. They will rarely agree to it unless syndromic or non-syndromic but significantly recessed. Reading a meta-analysis online shouldn't be the sole indicator for forming your opinion. Besides IAN nerve damage stats and sinus problems stats vary- I don't think there is a low standard deviation as you claim from what I've read. If it were as safe as you claim more surgeons would be performing them for aesthetic reasons.

As for OD, there is a comparatively lower complication rate compared to the past ever since they started performing decompression mostly on the lateral and medial walls and performing the techniques Dr. Robert Goldberg used. The point I was trying to make with that is thinking "it won't happen to me based on stats" isn't always an effective mindset- you're focused on the probability rather than the possibility. For example, in the case of winning a lottery, maybe you lose $20 in buying the ticket, but in the case of surgeries, you have a whole lot more to lose and shouldn't base your opinion solely on the probability.

In any case, it seems like you see things differently likely because hard-maxing may be the only option for you and worth it for you at all ages ( just my guess based on your response- can't say for certain) and my point wasn't that it isn't worth it at a later age- you can see I modified my stance in a reply saying that I do think for some people it's always worth it.

 

[Snicket]

I'm going off the stats I was given by the last surgeon I saw. But I doubt it's far off because all the surgeons this forum praises ( the ones in Italy) express a dislike to do higher cut leforts due to complications. They will rarely agree to it unless syndromic or non-syndromic but significantly recessed.

I wasn’t talking about higher cuts; I was talking about conventional Lefort .

Reading a meta-analysis online shouldn't be the sole indicator for forming your opinion. Besides IAN nerve damage stats and sinus problems stats vary- I don't think there is a low standard deviation as you claim from what I've read. If it were as safe as you claim more surgeons would be performing them for aesthetic reasons.

I’ve read mounds of medical literature on it, a lot of it is dateable back to the 1970s. This includes large scale surveys of patient satisfaction and complications post surgery. That’s more valid than a single conversation with a surgeon. All surgeons I’ve spoken to, even functional ones, have told me that bimax is very safe. Lots do bimax for cosmetic reasons.

As for OD, there is a comparatively lower complication rate compared to the past ever since they started performing decompression mostly on the lateral and medial walls and performing the techniques Dr. Robert Goldberg used. The point I was trying to make with that is thinking "it won't happen to me based on stats" isn't always an effective mindset- you're focused on the probability rather than the possibility.

OD is objectively much more risky than bimax. It’s fine to evaluate the specific risks of different procedures and act accordingly.
That’s not the same as “this won’t happen to me”. I never said this.

Probability and possibility are both important. Obviously, if there were a 5% chance that my jaws wouldn’t work. I wouldn’t do it.

However, the Complication rate is very low and the overwhelming majority of complications are temporary and completely manageable in bimax. In practice, I’m taking a very low risk of some minor complication occurring.

In any case, it seems like you see things differently likely because hard-maxing may be the only option for you and worth it for you at all ages ( just my guess based on your response- can't say for certain) and my point wasn't that it isn't worth it at a later age- you can see I modified my stance in a reply saying that I do think for some people it's always worth it.

This is a fair assessment. I have no disagreement with you here. It’s true in my case. Soft-maxing is commonsensical. I don’t need a bunch of teenagers with 5 second attention spans to tell me what I already know.

 

[1966Ford]

move to phillipines where there is no oldcel issue - unless they’ve ruined that too by then.

There's pedophile issues from oldcels, sadly...

 

[Ripio]

nobody cares about those two digit IQ surgeons who refuse to operate. Surgeries can drastically change the way you look if performed by someone who understand aesthetics and who is willing to take risks. If he goes to "board certified" idiots, doctors will probably just go with fillers because they are far too incompetent to perform osteotomies and don't want to risk botches.... Muh human body is too complex muh we don't know how tissue will react muh this and that....They only come up with excuses...Instead OP should save and go with giants to Turkey where he can even get Lefort 3

NO ONE will be willing to do lf3